Ep. 30: Intersectionality Part 3 — Disability in the Newcomer Community - You Can’t Spell Inclusion Without a D

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dean Askin (00:03):
You Can't Spell Inclusion without a D, the
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeannette Campbell and
Dean Askin.

(00:26):
Hello there, and welcome to theshow. This is episode 30 of You
Can't Spell Inclusion without aD, our final episode of season
five. The newcomer community inCanada is huge in 2022 this
country welcomed 431,645 newpermanent residents, the largest

(00:47):
number in one year in Canadianhistory. The last time we
welcomed that many newcomers wasover a century ago, in 1913 Hi
there. I'm Dean Askin. Thanksfor joining us,

Jeannette Campbell (01:01):
And hello and welcome to the show. From
me. I'm Jeanette Campbell. Nowfor the conversation we're about
to have in this episode, we'reusing the term newcomer broadly.
I guess what we're reallytalking about here is what's
known as the Canadian mosaic,the mix of cultures that shape
the country, whether people are,indeed recent newcomers who are

(01:22):
whether they're fourthgeneration born in Canada,
descendants of parents who camehere from another part of the
world.

Dean Askin (01:28):
Jeanette Statistics Canada put it this way in 2022
and I'm quoting here, immigrantsto Canada make up the largest
share of the population in over150 years, and continue to shape
who we are as Canadians.

You know, there was a time in this country
when almost all immigration camefrom Europe. Nowadays, people
are coming from countries andcultures from all over the
world. Asia happens to be thecontinent where the most people
are coming from, and India isthe country where most
immigrants to Canada were born.

Dean Askin (02:03):
And naturally, as StatCan notes, and I'm quoting
again here, immigrants come frommany different countries,
bringing with them theircultural, ethnic, linguistic and
religious heritage, and as we'lllearn in this episode, their
perceptions of disability. Bythe way, 27% of Canadians, 8
million people aged 15 and olderacross the Canadian Mosaic have

(02:28):
a disability.

So just what is the perception of disability
in the newcomer or immigrantcommunities and cultures? What
are the challenges for people inthese communities who have a
disability, and how inclusiveare they?

Dean Askin (02:43):
These are some of the questions we're exploring in
this episode as we wrap up ourthree part series on
intersectionality anddisability. If you missed part
one, episode 28 about disabilityin the LGBTQ2s plus community,
and Episode 29 disability in theFirst Nations and Inuit
cultures. Be sure to check thoseout as well.

For this third and final part of the
series, we're joined by twoguests who whose work involves
supporting people in thenewcomer community who have a
disability.

Dean Askin (03:16):
Raihanna Hirji Khalfan is the National Director
of Race and Disability Canada.Now these are just some of the
highlights from her bio over 15years of experience advancing
disability rights, anti-racismand anti-oppressive practice in
the non-profit and publicsectors. She's a former
Accessibility Officer forMcMaster University in Hamilton,
Ontario, whose expertiseincludes creating and managing

(03:39):
programs for marginalizedcommunities.

And Raihanna has two master's degrees,
including one in criticaldisability studies.

Dean Askin (03:49):
Also joining us is Rabia Khedr. She's the Chief
Executive Officer of DEENSupport Services. DEEN, by the
way, stands for DisabilityEmpowerment Equality Network.
It's a registered Canadiancharity founded by Muslims who
have a disability.

As the organization explains on its
website, DEEN operates a numberof programs and services in
Mississauga, Ottawa andScarborough, Ontario, and it
serves all individuals withdisability, regardless of
religion, language and culture.

Dean Askin (04:19):
The organization's mission is advancing community
inclusion by offering culturallyand spiritually relevant
services for families andindividuals living with
disabilities.

So Rahainna and Rabia, welcome to You Can't
Spell Inclusion Without a D.Thank you for joining us to
share your insights andperspectives on this
intersectionality of disability.

Raihanna Hirji-Khalfan (04:43):
Thank you. It's lovely to be here.
Thank you.

Okay, so you know what? Let's get right to
it. I'm going to ask the firstquestion, and Reanna, I'm
wondering if you would maybelike to take the first response
to it. It, and then we'll justlet the conversation flow from
there. So as we've said in thisintro, we're really looking at
what's the perception of or theattitude towards disability in

(05:11):
the newcomer community. I mean,obviously there's going to be
differences, there's going to bea range, or it'll depend on
which culture or what part ofthe world newcomers are from.
But just, I guess what we'retrying to figure out is just how
nuanced is it?

So it's a really good question. And as
you said, the newcomer communityis a hugely diverse population,
okay? And newcomer communitiesare not a monolith. There's a
rich cultural, linguistic,religious, etc, etc, diversity
that makes up those communities.So to answer that question is
really, really hard, and I wouldsay that the short answer is

(05:48):
that it depends, right? Likeevery community, every culture,
every racial background, havedifferent perceptions and
analysis around disability.Generally speaking, disability
is a concept that is considereda normal part of people's lived
experiences, right? And thenuances of how that operates and
how that looks like really doesdepend on any any given

(06:10):
community that you're workingwith. So we're actually at race
and disability Canada, lookingworking on a new project called
culture disability andinclusion, which is looking to
do research in 10 globallocations across the world to
understand and actually answerthis very question, like, what
is disability and how is itconsidered and perceived by
different communities across theworld? And we're going to bring

(06:32):
that research back to Canada andverify and kind of connect with
local diaspora communitiesacross the country to compare
and contrast and say, you know,these communities in country X,
you know, consider disability inthis way. And how does that fare
with what people in the localdiaspora communities, you know,
how do they perceive disabilitylocally? So stay tuned for

(06:54):
information about that. Thatproject is going to conclude in
March 2020, 2026, where we'llhave a lot of resources and
tools and materials thatorganizations across the country
can access around specificcommunities and their cultural
understandings of disability.

That sounds amazing, and we all know with
the way that time is flowingright now, March 26 is really
just around the corner, sothat's really exciting. We will
definitely stay tuned and stayin touch to get that information
from you. So I guess Rabia, howwhat would you say about this?

Rabia Khedr (07:30):
Again, I agree with Raihanna. People have different
ways of knowing and being giventheir lived experience and the
lived realities that they bringto their settlement process and
their Canadian experience. Soit's going to vary. It's going
to be individual. It, you know,there are other elements like we

(07:55):
can sort of have generalunderstandings of how disability
might be nuanced in a specificcountry or culture, but then,
you know, socio economic statusintersectionality plays out in
different ways.

Dean Askin (08:14):
I want to chime in and talk about similarities here
for a minute, and I'll tell youwhat I mean. You know, I kind of
mentioned this in the intro. Andwe started off this series with
a conversation about disabilityin the LGBTQ 2s plus community.
And the two researchers wetalked to, they told us that
they found that many people havea disability in that community

(08:36):
are really struggling to fitinto their community, into one
that's already marginalized anddiscriminated, and yet there
seems to be, you know,discrimination from the
discriminated community againstthose in it who have a
disability, and they found that,you know, there needs to be more

(08:56):
inclusion and inclusive spaceswithin that community. Are there
similarities around inclusionwith the LGBTQ 2s plus community
and the newcomer community?

I think what you're what you're talking about is,
you know what, as racializedpeople with disabilities,
newcomers, we face barriers inthe mainstream. We're
discriminated because of ourskin color, our other identity
markers. Now for you know,Canadians with disabilities who
are racialized or newcomers, wecombat attitudes on multiple

(09:32):
fronts, absolutely within ourethno specific communities,
within our faith communities. Weare disabled people that face
discrimination due to ourdisability, whereas in the you
know, and how that intersectswith our gender identity, etc,
in the dominant culture, youknow, it's the whole package.

(09:56):
It's not just our disability.So.

Dean Askin (10:01):
Raihanna, what do you think?

I was just going to say that, you
know, all communities have akind of similar construct, and
that, you know, there's themajority, there's the kind of
dominant values, dominant, youknow, what we consider to be
normal in inverted commas, andthen you have people who are
considered to be different anddiverse. And in every community,
there is ways in there are sitesof inclusion and sites of

(10:26):
exclusions. There's perceptionsand beliefs that will have to be
kind of unpacked and unraveledand reimagined. And I think
that, you know, similar to yourexample of LGBTQ plus
communities where they strugglewith this, you know, issues in
that community around disabilityinclusion, there were always
going to be in every singlecommunity. However you define
community, there'll be the same,there's a there'll be a

(10:47):
replication of the sameconstruct, right? And that we
need to, you know, learn,unlearn, unlearn and relearn
what inclusion actually lookslike based on whatever issue. So
any community, and however youdefine that will, you will find
a general perception about anygiven issue. And then there may
be disruptions to how peopleperceive disability or

(11:09):
inclusion, and that has to belearned and relearned. But I
think that it's a similarthread, and I think it's, you
know, every community, no matterwhat racial background,
religious background, cultural,linguistic background or
geographical background you comefrom, you'll have the same kind
of cycle that is unfolding. ButI think generally speaking, the
the fact that we're having theseconversations about the fact

(11:32):
that we can have organizationslike Dean, like race and
disability Canada, is anindication that there is a lot
of movement around disability,inclusion and accessibility
within newcomer racializedcommunities. And I think that
is, you know, a sign in and ofitself, in terms of what
inclusion looks like withinethno cultural communities.

And, you know, I guess going back sort of
to Rabia is point about theconcept of racialization, and
then the concept of disability,and the layers that that creates
when we talk aboutintersectionality and that
there's, you know, there's goingto be an ethno an ethno specific

(12:14):
experience and and a type ofdiscrimination that may be
occurring. But then there's alsowhat happens in as you described
it, you know, the dominantculture. So that's where we see,
like the the multiple layers,where the intersectionality
really starts to come into play,and and you can keep adding and
adding and adding to thoselayers, right? So you can be
racialized, and you can be anewcomer, and you can be a

(12:37):
woman, and you can be LGBTQ, andyou can have a disability, and
every time there's an and and,and that adds those layers to
the challenges that people canbe facing. So you know, for both
of you, I guess we're looking tofind out a little bit from you
about what's your experience insupporting a newcomer community

(13:00):
or racialized community, whatare and what do you think are
some of the biggest challenges,maybe, for newcomers who have a
disability when they're whennow?

So I think, from my perspective, like
coming from coming to it, from arace and disability Canada
perspective, we really arelooking at, you know, the
structural, systemic, you know,means of exclusion that
racialized people withdisabilities and newcomers face,
right? So, as you said, there isthe experiences of racism that

(13:34):
is systemic, that is ingrainedinto systems and policies and
structures and and what haveyou. And then you have the
addition of, you know, ableismattached to that. So I think
supporting newcomer communities.I mean, I think there are two
facets. You can unpack it in twoways. You can have like services

(13:55):
and supports that are designedto support people at that
intersection. But then you alsoneed to have the advocacy and
the addressing the systemic, theroot causes of these systems in
the first place, right? So, youknow, at race and disability
Canada, for example, out underour idea project, we are working
to build the capacity ofmainstream disability
organizations to reallyunderstand these intersections,

(14:17):
the specifically theintersections of race and
disability. Because, if you can,and one of the things which I
find very interesting is that wefound in our research is that
non racialized, disabled leadershave afraid to talk about race.
And the reason why people areafraid to talk about race is
because they don't know aboutrace, right? You know, sometimes
people are, you know, they'reworried about being called out.

(14:38):
They've had a bad experiencepreviously. They don't want,
they don't want, they don't wanttheir good intentions, to be
misinterpreted as racist. Thereare all these different layers,
which means that people do notfeel confident and they are not
competent to speak about race.So as a disability sector
leader, if I'm running anorganization, and I have a
position of power and authorityto enact, you know, my diversity
agenda, but if I, if I don'thave. Of those basic skills to

(15:01):
talk about race in a meaningfulway, I'm not going to be able to
institute meaningful change on asystems level that will actually
create a more inclusive eitherwork environment or, you know,
services or support servicesthat I'm providing. So one of
the biggest challenges, I wouldsay, is working is acknowledging
that this challenge exists inthe first place. I think the

(15:24):
conversation usually revolvesaround challenges within
racialized or newcomercommunities within like a
cultural context. But I thinkthe other part of the
conversation must be around thedominant culture and the
mainstream disability sectororganizations and beyond, and
what are they doing to kind ofaddress the inherent racist

(15:46):
ableism that exists? And I thinkthat's a conversation that is
often lacking, and what we'retrying to do is provide those
supportive learning environmentsthrough we have what we call the
idea Community of Practice,where we have disability sector
leaders join together online, ona virtual learning network,
where we kind of, we work withthem, right? We meet people

(16:08):
where they're at and we'retalking with them about, to be
honest, quite basic concepts,what is race, what is
racialization, what ismarginalization, what is
colonization, and what do allthese things have to do with
disability, right? So one of thethings that we try and talk
about is colonization and theimpact that's had on indigenous
people with disabilities, thelegacy of enslavement and the

(16:32):
reality of anti black racism,and the impact that has on black
communities, the reality and thehistory of immigration law and
policy and how law and policyhas been used to systematically
exclude racialized people withdisabilities. So once you look
at that History of Disabilityoppression in Canada, you can
kind of come to you can kind oflook at the context now of

(16:52):
newcomers, of racialized peoplewith disabilities, and kind of
see this in context. And I thinkhaving those type of
conversations in a way that isaccessible, that is welcoming,
that kind of invites people toengage with these almost quite
difficult concepts for people tograpple with, if they've not,
you know, have this type ofbackground, I think is really,
really important, and that's akey challenge that we're trying

(17:13):
to address with the work thatwe're doing at race and
disability Canada.

Thank you for that. That's I think there's
a lot in there that we could putcould probably spend time
unpacking as well. But, youknow, it is. It's taking into
account all of these differentthings that are actually
impacting a person's experience,a person's day to day
interactions in theircommunities and in their
workplaces. Go ahead.

So I just wanted to add to that we
have actually something calledthe idea practitioners and
Professionals Network. So theCEO the communities of practice,
we have our cohort now, but interms of the idea practitioners
and Professionals Network, thatis a network that is open for
member, for people to apply tobe a member. So that kind of
folk targets, you know, your deiworkers in disability

(18:03):
organizations and beyond who aretasked with the diversity
portfolio. You know, oftentimes,I kind of joke about this saying
you have kind of middle, middlemanagers working within
institutions tasked with systemswide change in terms of, like,
you know, how do we reform ourorganization to be more
inclusive, but this particularthese, this particular role,

(18:23):
doesn't have kind of powerauthority to actually make
systems wide change. It's kindof interesting, but that these,
these workers, or thesemanagement level staff, are
really uniquely placed, and theyhave a level of expertise, but
they're often the lone voice. Sothis network that we've created
is to kind of connect andconnect those individual workers

(18:44):
across the sector, to kind oftalk to each other. Network,
share strategies, sharechallenges and opportunities for
for collaboration. So that's anetwork that I think that your
listeners would reallyappreciate, in terms of, if they
have, if they hold the diversityportfolio in their organization,
they're more than welcome to tojoin that membership. And we
have really great networkingsessions every month where, you

(19:06):
know, staff, can get togetherand chat about these issues
around idea, the challenges andwhat are the opportunities to
kind of address this particularissue.

I think what would be great is if we can get
that information from you, andthen dean, maybe we can add a
link to that to the show notes,so that people will and even for
Odin, I think that that's agreat resource for us to have
when we are out communicatingwith that those employee
resource groups, and a lot ofour conversations are with those

(19:35):
leads in Dei, and they're comingto us to get that awareness and
confidence around disability,but there they are looking at
everything. So this is anotherresource we could offer them as
well. So that's great. So SoRabia at DEEN, not Dean, but it

(19:56):
not our, not our co host,

Dean Askin (19:57):
Sounds the same but spelled differently. Yeah.

Exactly at DEEN you your organization does
do some direct service deliveryfor for people who have a
disability related toemployment. So from your
perspective, what are, what aresome of the biggest challenges
that you're seeing for mayberacialized population, newcomer

(20:21):
populations who have adisability in relation to
employment.

Again, it's the it's the intersectional
experience, it's the layers ofdiscrimination to get their foot
in the door. We provide a numberof services. We're a very unique
organization in that we're sortof a hub of service. So we our
flagship program is a lifeskills program for folks with

(20:48):
intellectual disabilities, andthen we have peer networks and
run educational sessions,information and referrals.
Employment is an aspiration ofalmost everyone we serve.
Everybody wants to work,participate in employment
opportunities. They want to getand keep a job, and many a

(21:14):
times, they find themselves notonly discriminated because of
their disability, but because oftheir whole identity, their
whole package, their race anddisability, their language
barriers, their accents, theirnames. You know, they face the
same as people withdisabilities, who are newcomers,

(21:38):
who are racialized. They facethe same barriers that people
without disabilities who arenewcomers or racialized
experience with the added layerof discrimination or the
compound effect of thedisability as well. So again,
supports and services out theredon't necessarily recognize that

(22:03):
intersectional experience, anddon't necessarily have a way to
respond to it, to support peoplein successfully getting and
keeping a job.

Dean Askin (22:15):
You know, you've kind of answered the question I
wanted to ask, but I want to, Iwant to draw it out a little bit
more. And you know, theemployment rate of people who
have a disability in thiscountry, it's up, but the
equitable employment journey isstill fraught with barriers for
anyone who has a disability. Imean, so how magnified are those
barriers in the newcomercommunity?

They're huge. They're probably, I don't know
that we have statistical dataper se, but I think there would
be a disproportionate amount ofdisabled people unemployed who
are racialized, as opposed tothe broader stat. So we need to
segregated data around this.There isn't adequate data

(23:00):
through staff scan to break itreally down. Rehana, I don't
know if you have specificnumbers, but I think we need
more data.

No, we don't have specific numbers that
I can recall right now, but weto your point, yeah, we
absolutely, absolutely need moreresearch in this area. But I
think that anecdotally, we knowthat, for example, you know,
there's this thing called namebias, right? So if I've put my
my name on a you know,application, you know, that
gives people a hint of my race,my ethnicity, my place of

(23:31):
origin, all that fun stuff. Andyou know, depending on who's
reading the application, thatmay or may not favor Well, what
work in my favor or not? There'salso, you know, the
intersections of race anddisability in terms of, you
know, being in the workplace andbeing able to gain meaningful
employment and retain meaningfulemployment is really an
interesting area that reallyneeds to be looked at further

(23:53):
right. So we've, we've doneresearch before where people
have said that, you know, seniormembers of staff who've worked
in even the DEI field have saidto us that there's no way I'm
going to disclose my disabilityor my need for an accommodation
to my employer, because theydon't really they, you know, in
one example, this person saidthey don't know that I'm

(24:14):
actually racialized, like theyI'm white passing, and they
don't know that I'm Arab and so,but I know that because they
think I'm white, they have saidthings in my presence that are
deeply racist, and because theythey think I don't have a
disability, they've also saidthings that are deeply ableist.
So I'm not about to out myselfin terms of my the intersections

(24:36):
of my race and disability. In asimilar example, someone had
said that, you know, bydisclosing, even though
theoretically they realize that,you know, it's inherent right to
be able to access accommodationsbased on, you know, your
disability, that all that woulddo was reinforce a stereotype
that people from theirparticular cultural background
are lazy or don't have a strongwork ethic, and that's why they

(24:57):
need, you know, time off ortime. Break in middle of the
work day. So there is thisreally nuanced ways in which the
intersection of ableism andracism come out in an employment
context that really needs to beunpacked. But to wrap your
original point, we need data,and we've done a little bit of
work here and there, but itreally needs to be flushed out

(25:20):
in more detail, to be able toback up what the what we know to
be true in terms of, in terms ofpeople's individual stories, we
need hard data at this point tobe able to, you know, support
and evidence of the claims thatwe're making, which we know
today, of course,

Dean Askin (25:37):
And you're right there. There really is a lack of
data, you know, as a, you know,as a writer and a communicator,
when I'm researching for, youknow, blog posts or articles,
there's there, let's just saythere's not a plethora of data
on disability and in Canada andand, you know, and you're right,
you know, the stats show thatvery few people really disclose

(26:00):
a disability, I think it'ssomething like only 4% of, you
know, people in the C suitedisclose. And there was the one
global study done last year thata company said they think 7% of
their employees have adisability, but it's actually
closer to 25% because peoplearen't aren't disclosing. So I
mean, there's all kinds ofchallenges for the people who

(26:21):
have a disability, and we'vetalked about that. So in
addition to their challenges, Iwant to get a sense from each of
you know, what are yourchallenges? What are the
challenges of supportingnewcomers who have a disability?
I mean, how difficult is yourjob?

Well, again, there's a need. You know, people
bring their lived experience,right? I My family and I brought
our lived experience to thiscountry. I came here at the age
of four, and my parents livedexperience was that of exclusion
when it comes to vision loss. SoI'm blind, and I had, you know,

(27:01):
my eye condition was visiblefrom birth. I could see
somewhat, but not enough. I hadan uncle with the same vision
loss, and the his experience wasthat he attended school in the
village where I was born. Therewas no, you know, electricity at
that time, there was the oldfashioned state, you know, slate

(27:25):
and stylist and little minichalkboards and chalk that
people used to use. So it wasn'teven paper and pen at that time.
And he, he struggled his waythrough to grade five. The eye
condition I have is Leber'scongenital eyerosis. So the
vision deteriorates over time,and you know, light and dark

(27:46):
makes a difference, so he wasstruggling by the time grade
five came about, my grandmotherwas summoned by the headmaster
to the school ie principal andtold take him home because his
vision is going to get worse.And she took him home, kicking

(28:07):
and screaming and crying. Andthat was a very traumatic
experience that my, you know,father and my mother recall,
because my mother and father,you know, were in the same you
know, grew up there as well withhim, and so they brought that
lived experience. Their firstthing to take me to when they

(28:28):
landed here was to sick kids,hospital, to the eye clinic, to
the best eye doctors possible.They didn't think of school, and
nor did the hospital ask them ifI was in school? I sat at home
for about four years watchingtelevision and lots of it, and
learning the language andlearning how to count and and

(28:51):
say my alphabet and all thatkind of wonderful stuff. And one
day somebody said to my dad, Oh,is she? What grade is she? And,
you know, somehow figured out Iwasn't in school. This was a
friend of my dad said. He said,Wait a minute, this is Canada.
You need to take her to school.So I was taken to a local
school, but I was mislabeled andmisplaced because of the way my

(29:13):
father communicated my visionloss, as opposed to the way the
system needed to hear it. Myfather said she has poor
eyesight and wears glasses, andI struggled with an assessment.
And the experts, the psychoEducational Consultants,
thought, oh well, she must havea learning disability. They

(29:34):
didn't think I had vision losssignificant enough to, you know,
make me perform poorly on thosetasks. So newcomers, I think the
experience is complex. Theybring that lived reality with
them of back home in migrationthat doesn't just get left
behind. They have to learn howto navigate the system here,

(29:58):
they have to learn how. Toreconcile their lived experience
with the Canadian context arounddisability, and they have to,
you know, figure out how to maketheir way. It's it's
complicated.

Dean Askin (30:14):
So it sounds like, you know, does being able to or
how does drawing on your ownlived experience with
disability, how does that helpyou do your job to support you
know others in your in in thenewcomer community, it says, I
mean, often, I guessrelationship building is a big

(30:37):
part of it does being able todraw on your own lived
experience help build therelationships that help you.
Help you confidently. Supportpeople,

Absolutely Dean. At DEEN Support Services, it's all
about the fact that there'snothing about us without us. Our
board of directors members arefrom diverse backgrounds, ethno
racial, cultural backgrounds,language backgrounds. They

(31:04):
either are individuals withdisabilities themselves or
family members of individualswith disabilities. Our senior
leadership team identify asracialized people with
disabilities. We employ as muchas possible people with
disabilities, we've fostered asafe environment for disclosure
and and accommodation. In thatregard, people feel connected

(31:31):
and reflected when they enterinto our environment because we
share, you know, cultural andspiritual values and traditions.
We operate from a human rightslens. We serve everybody that we
can, that comes through ourdoors, as long as we can meet

(31:51):
their support needs. But weoperate, like I said, from that
cultural and spiritual lens as aMuslim organization established
by Muslims and primarily fundedby the Muslim community, just
like Rena services, which wasestablished by the Jewish

(32:13):
community, like Mary center,established by the Catholic
community, We operate within,you know, certain values and
traditions, but we serveeveryone that we can, and we
uniquely understand andappreciate their circumstances,
and we reflect their theirvalues and their beliefs and

(32:35):
their day to Day traditions. Inwhat happens within our space
people feel safe. It is aboutrelationships. It is about not
having to constantly educatepeople about your values and
expectations because you havethis shared experience.

Dean Askin (32:58):
Raihanna, I want to get your perspective. How
challenging is your job.

In many ways, it is. But I think that's
just the not the nature of not,you know, just running an
organization, but in terms ofthe specifics, I wanted to kind
of reiterate what Ravi I said.So Rob is actually one of the
one of is the founder of raceand disability Canada, and the
other founders are equally likeother racialized people with
disabilities who've beenadvocating around these
intersections for decades as anorganization, we prioritize

(33:25):
hiring, or we place a lot ofvalue on the lived experiences
of indigenous, black, racialpeople with disabilities, and we
we, you know, into thinkingabout like, how do you enact
systems, processes and policiesthat are actually truly
inclusive, right looking at Ourrecruitment methodology. And,
you know, how do we weightcertain experiences and
histories in terms of, like,qualifications and competencies?

(33:47):
Is something that we, you know,try make a particular effort to
do. But in terms of, one of mychallenges is, like, how do we
operationalize inclusion? Like,how do you operationalize, you
know, processes and systemsthat, you know, appreciate
people's lived experiences intorabiah point, you know, how do
we Yeah? One of my majorchallenges recently is thinking

(34:09):
about, yeah. How do Ioperationalize, how do I
institutionalize inclusion in away that takes into account
people's lived experiences ofracialization and racism, their
lived experiences arounddisability and disablement and
ableism. And how do you, youknow, create a truly inclusive
organization and an accessibleorganization recognizing that

(34:29):
people with disabilitiesexperience, you know, barriers
on a day to day basis. So how doyou create an organization that
is responsive to the specificneeds of staff, as well as being
able to deliver and meettimelines as per whatever is
that you're supposed to do as anorganization. So I think really
being mindful, taking like aholistic approach and

(34:51):
recognizing that people come tothe table, people come to your
work, to any workplace, with awhole lot of lived experience
that can be very, very valuable.Ball to your work and sometimes
can be quite challenging interms of, you know, the day to
day experiences. So how do wejust recognize that one of the
things that I try and do with myteam is I invite people to talk
about, you know, their faith,their culture, use particular

(35:16):
language that may be, you know,common to particular cultural
context and linguistic context,because recognizing that, you
know, people use particularverbiage in their everyday in
their everyday interactions withpeople, is a way that you
recognize and appreciateinclusion, right? Like, I think
one of the things that we'vewe've been speaking about in the

(35:36):
communities of practice, isabout, you know, whose values
and whose culture is seen asnormal, and whose cultures and
whose values and whose ways ofbeing is considered a little bit
on the periphery. And we reallywant to try and bring things and
perceptions, values, beliefs andperspectives that are typically
on the margin and bring them tothe center. And we try and do

(35:58):
that in different ways, throughconversation and informal
things. But again, going back tomy original point, to ask you a
question, operationalizinginclusion is really, really
important. I believe it's aboutbeing intentional, being
deliberate, really unpackingwhat is considered
professionalism, and really kindof honing in on, like the big
picture in terms of what we whatwe're here to do. Why are we

(36:19):
here? And for me, the process isjust as important as the
outcome. So as an organization,of course, we have deliverables,
we have timelines, we haveoutputs that we need to deliver,
but the way in which we do that,you know, is really, really
important. And for me as anorganizational leader, it's
like, how do we againoperationalize inclusion and
accessibility in the way that isresponsive to the lived

(36:40):
realities of people who are hasexperienced racist ableism for
pretty much most of their lives.

And I guess, you know, looking at this
question, almost from the fromthe opposite way, what? What
would the both of you say issome of the most rewarding parts
of what you're doing, and Iguess really is, have you seen
in your time changes happeningor improvements, or are there,

(37:09):
are there things that aresignaling to you that that
people are under starting tounderstand more about this
intersectionality and reallyunderstanding, you Know, as you
said, the intersection betweenableism and racism, have you,
you know, is there, is there anyprogress or reward that you've
seen so far?

For me, I have staff who have told me
that, you know what, I feel it'slike working at racism break
hands, like coming home, and Iwas like, expectin that type of,
you know, commentary orfeedback, but it really
resonated. And when we dodifferent exercises in our team
meetings, it's like the generalthe general feeling is a sense

(37:50):
of comfort and belonging. Andfor me, that type of feedback is
critical and important. But youknow, when we've engaged with
indigenous, black, racializedpeople with disabilities, and
we've had a round table. And oneof the things that stuck out for
me is one person said, I reallyfeel seen and heard. And I'll be
honest, we just had a call. Itwas literally from my

(38:11):
perspective, just, you know,organized a round table, we had
a conversation talking about,you know, various issues. That
type of feedback for me is, youknow that will motivate me for
the next 10 years, because to beable to do something that enable
people to feel that they've beenseen and heard is critically
important to the work that wedo. And you know, in our cops

(38:33):
and in our other programs, youknow, we have disability sector
leaders equally, who say, I'm soglad that I have a place that I
can ask my questions. I'm soglad that I can. I'm in a place
where I could talk about theseissues, right, where we say to
them, we see that there'shesitation when you're using the
word race or racialization. Youknow, let's unpack that a little

(38:53):
bit and let us help you and toget feedback from our
participants, disability sectorleaders, who've been doing this
work for decades, who are ableto kind of leave those forums
and feel a little bit moreconfident talking about the
intersections of race anddisabilities. That, to me, is,
you know, very, very rewarding,and tells us that we're on the
right track. We have a lot ofwork to do. We've barely touched

(39:15):
the surface, but you know, forme, it's like we are. We're on
the right track, and I'm really,really excited about the work
that we can do at race and raceand disability Canada, and the
initiatives that we're doing andreally continuing to engage the
diversity of the variouscommunities that we're trying to
work with.

And Rabia, what about what about you?

What's rewarding to me is putting the issue on the
map. You know, for for so manyyears, I've been working in this
space since the 90s, and, youknow, our roots are with erdco,
ethno racial people withdisabilities, Coalition of
Ontario. And erdco was a loneranger, and nobody was really
listening. Everybody jumped onthe inclusion Ben. Inclusion

(40:01):
only from the perspective ofdisability and not that
intersectional reality ofCanadians with disabilities. And
over time, you know, there'sbeen little splinterings of
efforts here and there,meanwhile, as grassroots
communities, all the partnersthat came together under race

(40:21):
and disability Canada, we didour part with very limited
resources to empower racializedpeople with disabilities. In
recent years, especially postpandemic, we recognize that

(40:41):
there's more attention beingpaid to this, it's not just, you
know, we have extra pocketchange, so let's do it, you
know, diversity and inclusionworkshop, but it's really, what
can we do to bring about somesystemic change? So that, to me,
is like, whoa, hello. I've beendoing this for 30 years. I've

(41:04):
been talking about this for solong, it's about time that
somebody's listening. It'snothing new. It's not magic.
Guys, you know. So for me, it'sthat Hello moment, if I can say
that. And also, you know again,just finding those connections,

(41:26):
making those connections,bringing that conversation
around racialized people withdisabilities, newcomers with
disabilities, forward into theNational Disability space has
been very important to me, andseeing that, you know, it's

(41:48):
resonating. And there are othersin that space, like meeting
folks through Canadian Councilon Disability, like Heather walk
us and Ingrid Palmer has beenvery exciting for me that, you
know, we're at this brink ofbringing about some substantive

(42:13):
change. A lot of work ahead, butit's, it's in reach now, the
work that needs to be done is inreach

Dean Askin (42:22):
Absolutely, you know, my, my, my brain is
raising and my head is spinning,because there's just so much to
understand about all the manynuances and all the different
angles of intersectionalitydisability, you know, within the
racialized and newcomercommunity. So can we nail it
down, you know, to one thing. Imean, what would you say is the

(42:45):
main thing that people fromoutside the newcomer community
really need to understand? Iguess I'm talking about people,
whether they have a disabilityor whether they don't. What's
the main thing? What do theyneed to understand most about
this intersectionality ofdisability.

So I would say we just launched our
the big, the first of our ideatoolkits, and that first toolkit
is about courageousconversations. And I would to
answer your question, I wouldsay it's about having courageous
conversations, becausecourageous conversations about
race, courageous conversationsabout disability, and courageous
conversation about every, youknow, everything surrounded

(43:26):
surrounding those intersections.And if you go to our website,
you'll be able to see that firsttoolkit. And I'm sure by the
time this episode is there'll bemany more on the site for people
to look at. But I, for me, Ithink it's about, it's about,
you know, leaning into thediscomfort and having those
conversations and connectingwith communities, with
organizations, with leaders likeHeather and Ingrid and Rabia,

(43:49):
who have been leading thischarge for decades, and really,
you know, figuring out your rolein place in this in this change
that is inevitably Havehappening.

Dean Askin (44:00):
Rabia, what about you?

For me, my message would be, don't be threatened.
Be be open to the inclusion ofracialized people with
disabilities.

Yeah, and I guess that that concept of,
don't be frightened and be open.You know, I think that's been
some of the underlyingconversation here is around in
recent in this conversationaround that education, educate
yourself, become aware. Youknow, it openly say we call our

(44:36):
training disability awarenessand confidence training. And we
specifically say that, becausewe say if you're not aware of
something, you can't beconfident in it. And we know
that when we work with withorganizations and businesses or
government, that there's a lotof a lot of common themes here

(44:56):
around some of the challenges inthe and it does go back to. You
know, Reanna your point aboutcourageous conversations, and
which, again, is, you know, toRobbie's point, don't be, you
know, just, just do it. Don't beafraid. And I think that that's,
I think that that's so importantso, you know, that's sort of,

(45:19):
what are some of the things thatpeople you know need to
understand the most, anddefinitely this toolkit will
make sure that, you know, we'llconnect with you and see if
there's the ability to get thatlinked as well. And I know for
my team and my organization,we're going to be downloading
the toolkit and looking at itbecause we need to continuously

(45:39):
educate ourselves as well andmake ourselves aware so for for
everybody who's taking in thisconversation right now, as we
sort of draw to a close, what'sif there was a single most
important thing that you wantthem to take away, like maybe a
bit of a call to action oranything like that, What would

(46:00):
what would that be? I think

For me, and I've been having this conversation
today, training a bunch of folksin Nova Scotia, in within the
system, is recognize your powerand privilege and be prepared to
share it. Don't be threatened.Be prepared to share power,

(46:23):
because that's what helps usbuild an inclusive community, an
inclusive society and aninclusive workplace. And

Raihnna Hirji-Khalfan (46:34):
I would echo that absolutely and that,
you know, inclusion is foreverybody. It's not just for the
a small handful of people thatwe have selected, right? I think
that is the key point. Yeah,

Dean Askin (46:45):
Before we draw this conversation to a close, I have
to ask the, you know, thequestion I've been asking as the
final question for what, fiveseasons now, on this on this
podcast, you've both had suchgreat insights on all this, and
we've talked about so much. Isthere anything we haven't talked

(47:07):
about on this that you think isimportant to mention as a final
word?

I'm speechless, and that doesn't often happen. I
don't know. I that

I was going to say something in that,
you know, at the beginning, inthe intro, you'd mentioned about
the history of newcomers. Andfor me, when we're thinking
about newcomers, I think it'sreally, really important to
recognize the history of settlercolonialism and the fact that,
you know, we are a nation thatwas founded on, you know, the

(47:44):
colonization of indigenouspeople. And I think that history
is so critical in terms of whenwe're talking about indigenous,
black, racialized people withdisabilities. And because the
history is not benign, it isvery it is the source of the of
exclusion. You know, it's thefounding story of our nation in

(48:05):
many ways, like it is thefounding stories of our nation,
and it has a very specific andstrong line to the situation of
racialized people withdisabilities in Canada today. So
I think understanding thehistory of disability oppression
as it relates to indigenous,black, racialized people with
disabilities, the legacy ofcolonization, the legacy of

(48:26):
slavery in Canada, enslavementin Canada, and the legacy of
discriminatory immigration lawand policy is critical to this
conversation. We cannot talkabout inclusion. We cannot talk
about diversity withoutrecognizing our history, and

that's something really important that Raihanna
brings up absolutely and she's,you know, triggered a thought in
me to say that it's not justabout newcomers, because
newcomers aren't necessarilyracialized, right? It's really
about racialized, indigenous andblack communities who have been

(49:03):
here, you know, as indigenousfolks forever, and black and
racialized people over many,many generations and if not
centuries. And it's reallyrecognizing that there is huge
history of exclusion around thatintersectionality that it's not
a new phenomenon, although it'sa new buzz term that everybody's

(49:28):
paying attention to, and thattoday racialized people with
disabilities face a whole, youknow, compounded experience of
barriers, as do our indigenousbrothers and sisters with
disabilities, who have been hereforever. They are not new, then

(49:52):
they can't be lumped intonewcomers, but they have this
intersectional experience ofexclusion. Not only because of
their disability, but because oftheir indigenous origins.

And I would also just like to add, and
I I actually should have saidthis somewhere earlier in the
conversation, however, you know,I think one of the we're talking
about newcomers and people withnewcomers with disabilities. I
think one of the the things thatoften doesn't get talked about,
along with the history ofdisability, along with the
history of disabilityoppression, is the causes of

(50:29):
disablement. You know, acrossthe world, we know that war and
violence is is one of the majorcauses of disablement. And I
cannot talk about disabilityrights and intersectionality and
indigenous, black, racializedpeople with disabilities, and
not make mention of the currentgenocide that is happening in
Palestine today and the level ofdisablement that is happening,

(50:53):
you know, I think that there is,you know, the UN Convention on
the right, the UN Committee onthe Rights of people with
disabilities have clearly statedtheir concerns around
accessibility in, you know, inthe context of the genocide and
the situation of people withdisabilities in Gaza in
particular, and it's, you know,a significant cause for concern

(51:16):
doesn't even cut it at thispoint. But again, the you know,
the conversation arounddisablement, the conversation
around people with disabilitiesfrom Palestine is, you know,
that conversation is a trickyconversation to have for many
people, because it's nuanced andit's layered and it's ingrained
with issues of racism andsettler colonialism, and these
are, again, histories and factsthat we often shy away From

(51:39):
talking about because for many,many different reasons. But I
think if we want to hone in ondisability and racism, this is a
really good example of thatintersection as it relates to
newcomer communities, thetreatment of people who have
become disabled through war andgenocide, and the response that
we have as a country and as aworld at this point to the

(52:01):
situation that is currentlyunfolding. And then I hope, by
the time that we this particularepisode is aired, that this is
actually a point of history as apoint of a point of current
current affairs.

And this is the added piece around newcomers
with disabilities that we didn'teven scratch the surface on
people who are newcomers withdisabilities coming through the
experience of torture and traumaand acquired disability as a
result of war, and what thatmeans, and how do we serve them
and ensure their full language?

Yeah, because that is that's a it's
when, when you bring in that,that part of the conversation it
is, that's a whole otherconversation. And I think it's a
place where, at least, in myopinion, for Canada, I think
it's an area that hasn't been anarea of focus, and so there
isn't a lot of the supports inplace to really help people as

(53:01):
they're coming into Canada,coming out of these experiences
and away from these experiences,whether they had a disability or
it was acquired, they're stillcoming with that traumatization,
with all of those other thingsthat have happened to them and
that they've experienced orwitnessed and and then finding

(53:22):
themselves here in a countrythat isn't necessarily prepared
to be dealing with all of thesethings at once. So it's hopeful
that you know, throughorganizations like yours,
through conversations like this,that that does spark that that
conversation, or that itsupports, you know, the
continuing of theseconversations, because that is a

(53:43):
huge piece of it that you knowour experience is showing us.
When I say our experience, Imean at Odin in talking with our
service providers that are inour network, you know, some of
the challenges that they werefacing supporting refugees who
were coming through from theUkraine just a little while ago

(54:03):
and making sure that there were,you know, so we're going back
maybe about a year or so ago, ortwo years, when there was really
a big push of refugees cominginto the country and the
disabilities that were beingacquired, Especially ones around
sensory disabilities and so notbeing prepared in Canada, around

(54:24):
our ASL for supporting the deafcommunity by people who are
being deafened through acts ofwar, and not necessarily having
enough translators who werefluent in the languages that
they needed to be fluent in. Soeven that was just like a tiny
example of the large issue thatthe both of you are touching on.

(54:45):
So you know, thank you for that.And I think maybe that's
something Dean and I can go backand start thinking about for for
season six, having having thatconversation and and calling on
both of you maybe to help us toframe that conversation.
Conversation and start it. Yeah,that would be, that would be
great. And so, you know, I feellike we could talk. We could

(55:09):
talk forever on this we could soat this point, I don't want to
stop the conversation, but Iknow that we have to. So I'm
going to say thank you to bothof you for for this great
conversation, and, you know,sort of two personal insights.
One is being the only Canadianborn in my family. So my parents

(55:31):
emigrated here in the 60s. Hadthis Canada was my mother's
third country. My mother isracialized. I am one of those
people who people would notnecessarily identify as being
somebody who is biracial, but Ido most definitely identify
myself that way. And so it wasvery interesting, Rana, when you

(55:52):
were talking about some people'sexperiences about being inside
conversations that wouldn't havehappened had people understood
my identity, and thinking aboutthat history piece around, what
are the, what are the challengesthat are layered on to people
who are racialized? And I thinkabout my mother's experience in

(56:13):
this country, in the in the 60sand and what, what that was like
for her. And then, you know,Rabia, I remember that Dean and
I first met you last January atUniversity of Toronto,
Scarborough campus.

Yep, David Onley event, yep,

Exactly for the Fonds exhibit those
archives. So I gotta say we wereso glad that we met you at that
event, and that that's how wewere able to reach out to you
for this episode. Yes, youconnected us with rayanna. And
so I have to say it again, thankyou. It has been a great
conversation. And you know, Ijust thank you both for coming

(56:53):
in and helping us and everyoneand anyone who's tuning into
this episode right now to reallystart to think about all of the
nuances of disability and theand the impacts of of the
different cultures that make upthe Canadian mosaic and
everybody's individualexperience.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Love the
conversation, and I hope tocontinue talking.

Yeah, looking forward to getting the link to
the final podcast.

Dean Askin (57:21):
I have to say thanks to both of you as well. And you
know, Jeannette, I remember, youknow, meeting Rabia at that U of
T Scarborough Campus event aswell. And I remember that
evening I was just feeling soawkward, because I'm just
awkward when it comes to makingconversation at events like
that. And I think I mentionedthe time that we were doing this
episode, and my journalisticspidey sense was going off that

(57:43):
evening, and it tingled, and Iknew right then and there that I
was going to be getting in touchwith Rabia to get to come on the
show. So I want to say thanksagain, Rabia for agreeing to be
part of this conversation when Ireached out afterwards. You
know, as Jeanette said, this hasbeen a great conversation and a
really important one to have, Ithink for me, you know, as
someone whose descendants comefrom England and Ireland, that's

(58:07):
my heritage, I think I can sayI've come out of this
conversation with a betterunderstanding about the nuances
of disability in differentcultures. And hopefully everyone
taking in this episode has too,you know, maybe the conversation
that all of us have had on thisintersectionality disability
will spark other conversation,and both inside and outside, the

(58:28):
newcomer immigrant communitiesand cultures.

Yeah, I love, I love the thought of that
and and I think that this isactually a great season closer
that we know now has sparkedother conversations. So I guess
that that is a wrap for ourthree part series on
intersectionality, and this isactually a wrap to our fifth

(58:53):
podcast season. So before we go,I do just want to say thank you
to my co host who's reallynurtured me. Over the last five
seasons, I've learned a lot fromyou, Dean and and I have had the
opportunity, because of that, tolearn a lot from all of the
guests who've been on our show.So this has been a real pleasure
working on this passion project,and for everybody who ever has

(59:16):
been a guest, including the twoof you as our last guest for
this season. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Dean Askin (59:24):
Well, you know, inside right now I'm going like,
ah, shocks, you know, becausethanks for that, Jeanette, you
know, because, I mean, I'm justdoing my thing. I mean, it's,
it's hard to believe now thatwe've been doing the show
together for five years. Youremember when it used to take
us, like, over an hour or so todo the run through for an
episode, and now we whip throughit easily and in half the time.
I mean, I guess that in itselfsays a lot,

And so it does Dean and so I'm Jeanette
Campbell, and thanks for beingwith us this episode and this
season, and we'll be back nextseason with more great
conversations like this one, andwe're hoping that you'll tune in
again in 20. 25 for newepisodes, and in the meantime, I
hope you'll take in all theexisting episodes of you can't

(01:00:06):
spell inclusion without a D. Youknow, a minute ago, Robbie and I
mentioned David Onley. So foranyone who's not familiar with
that name, David C only was thefirst working television
journalist in Canada and theFirst Lieutenant Governor of
Ontario who had a visibledisability, and we just had a
really moving conversation abouthis legacy of championing

(01:00:27):
disability inclusion andaccessibility in Episode 27 and
you know, also just draw topeople's attention, maybe check
out Episode Two. I mean, checkthem all out, but maybe check
out Episode Two while you'rewaiting for the new season to
come out. And that's that's fromour very first season, and
that's our most downloadedpodcast ever.

Dean Askin (01:00:50):
And Jeanette, you know, I guess since it's the
second half of November, as thisepisode's airing and our podcast
season is ending, just as theholiday season is upon us, we
should sign off by saying HappyHolidays and Happy New Year.
Catch you in spring 2025 forseason six, I'm Dean Askin.
Thanks again for listeningwherever, whenever and on

(01:01:11):
whatever podcast app you'relistening from. Join us each
episode as we have insightfulconversations like this one
about disability in the newcomercommunity and explore disability
and inclusion. In business andin our communities from all the
angles You Can't Spell Inclusionwithout a D is produced in
Toronto, Canada by the OntarioDisability Employment Network.

(01:01:34):
All rights reserved. Our podcastproduction team, Executive
Producer andhost JeanetteCampbell, producer Sue Dafoe,
Associate Producer and Host,Dean Askin. Audio editing and
production by Dean Askin. Ourpodcast theme is Last Summer by
Ikson. If you have feedback orcomments about an episode,
contact us atinfo@odennetwork.com that's info

(01:01:56):
at o d, e, n, e, t, w, o, r,k.com. Join us each episode for
insights from expert guests aswe explore the power of
inclusion, the business benefitsof inclusive hiring, and why
disability is an important partof the diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation. Listento You Can't Spell
InclusionWithout a D on Podbeanor wherever you find your

(01:02:18):
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Ep. 30: Intersectionality Part 3 — Disability in the Newcomer Community

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 30: Intersectionality Part 3 — Disability in the Newcomer Community