Ep. 37: One Year Later: Funding Inclusion for Ontario Youth with Disabilities — A Cost-Benefit Model
September 23, 2025 • 36 mins
September is back-to-school time for students at all levels…elementary school, middle school…and college and and university students.
It’s a good time to talk about supporting youth who have a disability so they can transition to employment from high school or post-secondary education.
Research shows that young people who have a disability…have a better chance of long-term success in the workforce if they have a part-time job while they’re finishing high school.
The 2022 Canadian Survey on Disability showed that 20% of Canadian youth have a disability. That’s more than 546,000 young people.
Then there all the young people who have disability, who are not in education, employment or training (NEET). In Canada, that’s almost 109,000 young people.
And almost 84,000 of them have been identified as potential employees. The statistics show there are a lot of youth who have a disability who can, and want to, work. But are we doing enough to support them?
A report released in September 2024 suggests not. And it outlines a public funding cost-benefit model of “stable, equitable ‘start-early’ programs” that shows a small public investment per person has a big lifetime return on investment.
It’s been a year since the release of Funding Employment Inclusion for Ontario Youth with Disabilities: A Cost-Benefit Model.
Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital spearheaded this collaborative report.
This episode, we find out what’s been happening in the year since the report was released and presented to the Ontario government.
Catch this insightful conversation with guests with Holland Bloorview’s Laura Bowman and Carolyn McDougall.
SHOW NOTES
- Episode 37 transcript (PDF)
- Download and read the report
- Learn about other Holland Bloorview youth funding advocacy initiatives and resources
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dean Askin (00:02):
Announcer, this is you can't spell inclusion
without a dean. The podcast thatexplores the power of inclusion
in business, in employment, ineducation and in our
communities, and why disabilityis an important part of the
diversity, equity, inclusion andaccessibility. Conversation with
your hosts, Amy widdows and DeanAskin.
(00:28):
Hello there, and welcome to theshow. This is episode 37 of you
can't spell inclusion without aD. Well, it's September. Back to
school. Time for students acrossCanada, across North America, at
all levels of course, elementaryschool, middle school, high
school and college anduniversity students. So this
(00:48):
Back to School Month is a goodtime to talk about supporting
youth who have a disability sothey can transition to
employment from high school orpost secondary education. Hi
there. I'm Dean Askin. Researchshows that young people who have
a disability have a betterchance of long term success in
the workforce if they have apart time job while they're
finishing high school.
Amy Widdows (01:09):
That's right, Dean, Hi, I'm Amy widows at the other
mic, the 2022 Canadian survey ondisability showed that 20% of
Canadian youth have adisability. That's more than
546,000 young people. And thenthere are all the young people
who have a disability, who arenot in education, employment or
training or NEET. That's n e tfor short, here in Canada,
(01:34):
that's 108,790 young people, and77% of them, almost 84,000 youth
have been identified aspotential employees. These stats
come from Employment and SocialDevelopment Canada, by the way.
Dean Askin (01:48):
So the statistics show there are a lot of youth
who have a disability who canand want to work. The big
question is, are we doing enoughto support them so they can
contribute to businesses thatneed employees and contribute to
their communities and theeconomy. A report released in
September 2024 suggests not andit outlines a public funding
(02:10):
cost benefit model of a stable,equitable start early programs
that show as small publicinvestment per person has a big
lifetime return on investmentfor government.
Amy Widdows (02:22):
That report is titled funding employment
inclusion for Ontario youth withdisabilities, a cost benefit
model. Full disclosure here, theOntario Disability Employment
Network was involved in thisreport. It was a collaboration
between hull and Bloorview KidsRehabilitation Hospital,
chronicle analytics and Odin nowhere we are, September 2025 it's
(02:44):
been almost exactly a year sincethe report was released.
Dean Askin (02:48):
Holland bloru, you spearheaded the report, so we
thought, let's bring in theleads from Holland blue review
and find out what's beenhappening in the year since
funding employment inclusion forOntario youth with disabilities
was released and presented tothe Ontario government. Laura
Bowman is Project ManagerResearch and Evaluation
employment pathways at Hall andblue review in Toronto. By the
(03:11):
way, this is Laura's secondguesting on you can't spell
inclusion without a D thisseason, Laura was on the show
back in June on episode 34 parttwo in our sector series, when
we looked at the Inspire, hire,train, retain, disability
inclusion initiative in theOntario healthcare sector.
Amy Widdows (03:27):
And Carolyn McDougall is here for the first
time. Carolyn is manageremployment pathways all in
Bloorview. Laura, welcome backand Carolyn, welcome to you
can't spell inclusion without aDean. Thanks for coming on the
show to give us an update onwhat's been happening since the
funding employment inclusion forOntario youth with disabilities
report was released. Thanks forhaving us before we get into
(03:50):
what's been going on this yearsince the report was published.
I want to ask why was thisreport the cost benefit model
important to publish in thefirst place?
Laura Bowman (04:00):
Work is a social determinant of health, so access
to employment gives peoplefinancial security, social
connection, confidence and prideand the ability to contribute to
society. It's important forindividuals and families, and
it's important to ourcommunities and society. But we
know that people withdisabilities are employed at
(04:21):
much lower rates than thosewithout disabilities, and that
rate increases as theinvolvement or severity of the
disability does. And as you weresaying in the introduction, Amy
and Dean, you know this isreaching really high thresholds,
especially with youth. So how dowe fix that. How you know? We
(04:42):
know based on research evidence,based on publicly available
statistics and our ownexperience that starting early,
as early as high school, withwork related experience leads to
better lifetime work outcomesand work connection for youth
with disabilities and. Theseprograms that help connect youth
with disabilities to employmentare not available with sort of
(05:07):
equal frequency, equal qualityand equal accessibility across
the province of Ontario. So weknow that these programs are
essential to connect youth withdisabilities to employment, and
we know that they're notequitably available. One of the
major barriers for youthaccessing programs like these is
funding. It's tricky becausepublicly available funding to
(05:29):
support job seekers andemployees with disabilities is
often not available for youthwho are still in high school,
which is a developmentallyimportant time to start. So here
we are. We can't argue to startearly to fund start early
employment programming for youthwith disabilities, without
(05:50):
demonstrated program andfinancial outcomes for these
programs, but we can't report onthese outcomes because we don't
have funded programs. So we'restuck in this catch 22 really
not knowing how to get thingsstarted, and so we chose to
partner with Odin yourself as aleading voice in disability
(06:11):
inclusive employment in Ontario,and with chronicle analytics,
who's a group of policy analyststo help further investigate what
do we already know about startearly programming and the
important outcomes, and what dowe know about how we can get
youth into these programs anddemonstrate their effectiveness,
so that they could be betterfunded across Ontario? And with
(06:34):
that, we gathered a group ofservice providers, advocates,
researchers, policy analysts andothers who want to seek funding,
and we sought funding from theGovernment of Ontario to better
understand how to address thisissue. So that's the very long
story about how it came about.
Amy Widdows (06:53):
Well, thank you. Carolyn, Laura, it's been a
year. What's been happeningsince this was released?
September 2024 what's been thereaction from businesses and
government, from the disabilitysector and from communities?
Carolyn McDougall (07:06):
So hi, it's Carolyn to take on this one just
by I wanted to add to theintroduction to say I am the
manager of employment Pathwaysprograms for youth at Holland
Bloorview. I also coordinate thenetwork of Project Search,
Transition to Work trainingprograms in Ontario, and that'll
(07:26):
be relevant in answering this ina minute. So so we can say,
after releasing this costbenefit report, together with
Odin and Chronicle analytics, wedeveloped advocacy tools to
accompany the report, and theyinclude a call to action, slide
deck and a letter thatcommunities can use to engage
support on this topic. Thereport and those tools are
(07:49):
available on the HollandBloorview website. So it's
Holland blurview.ca/advocacy,and you go to disability in the
workplace, and we introducedthese tools at an ODIN
connection event last fall. Soit was to an audience of
employment serviceorganizations, community
developmental serviceorganizations, schools and
policy makers, and then weshared them with also the
(08:10):
network of schools andemployment organizations and
host businesses who arecurrently operating Project
Search, Transition to Workprogramming. So definitely
groups are talking about youthemployment and using this
information regularly, most orimportantly in general, Odin has
organized opportunities to speakabout funding youth employment
(08:31):
programming with Ontario'sministries of labor, children,
Community and Social Services,Education, seniors and
accessibility and training incolleges, generally, reactions
are always very positive. Peoplereally do know that early
intervention is good policy, andthe numbers in the cost benefit
(08:51):
report add quantitativeinformation to what's known to
be best practice and all theindividual impact stories about
youth employment, I want to saythat with a in particular, with
the transition to work trainingprogram model like Project
Search, we're actually notasking for new money. We are
(09:11):
asking government to work withus to look at how existing
funding streams could be tappedto make effective programming
for youth employment possiblewhile young people are in high
school. So we're not quite yetthere yet in terms of having
publicly available andsustainable mechanisms for this,
(09:32):
but we're in active discussions,and we're hopeful.
Dean Askin (09:35):
Now, this report, you know, it's, you know, it's,
it illustrates the cost benefitmodel, and there's numbers
involved, but in layman's terms,so that people listening to the
episode or following thetranscript right now, I mean, so
they can understand, in plainlanguage, what are those
potential cost benefits of earlysupport?
Laura Bowman (09:58):
A really great question. Do. Dean, we have a
great deal of evidence regardingthe benefits of employment and
employment programs forindividuals with disabilities.
We know that. You know, from aperson level, people are
connected to work. It'smeaningful in their lives. What
we focused more on in thisreport is the costs and benefits
(10:19):
to society. So rather than beinga question of, what does it do
for them, if you are in theoutside group, what does it do
to help an individual withdisability or a group of
individuals with disability, wereally try to look at the idea
of, what does it mean for all ofus, for the collective, for the
tax paying public to run theseprograms and to publicly invest
(10:43):
in these programs with fundsthat we all contribute through
our taxes, really focusing onmoney retained by government. So
what we looked at is, ifgovernment helped to contribute
to, let's say job coaches orskills trainers or employees to
run a program for transition toemployment for youth while still
(11:09):
in high school withdisabilities. What would that
save government in the future?We looked at cost savings,
including reduced socialassistance funds, like
disability supports, like inOntario, we have ODSP. We also
looked at benefits returned togovernment that would be
increased through things likeincome taxes paid and
(11:30):
contributions to registeredsavings programs that offer
financial incentives andstability and ultimately reduce
government supports paid outagain. We modeled it over the
working life of an individual.So we're going to talk a little
bit later about personas.Probably we looked at realistic
personas of individuals withdisabilities that might go
(11:50):
through the types of programs weoutlined, like Holland, Bloor,
abuse, employment pathways,programs and the Project SEARCH
model that Carolyn mentionedpreviously, and what it might
look like for someone who leftschool or university at 2122
over their lifetime careertrajectory, so until 65 what
(12:11):
would the cost savings be togovernment if they did not
attend these programs? So abaseline, and if they did attend
these programs, and what wefound was pretty staggering. So
for example, for someone whoparticipated in a Project SEARCH
program, we anticipated about a$16,000 one time investment for
the government to support theirparticipation in a program, and
(12:35):
over their lifetime, thegovernment would see a 700%
return on investment, whichreally accounts to almost
$130,000 in savings for thatindividual, and with some of our
employment Pathways Programs,similarly, a little over $16,000
(12:56):
investment, We're looking at a750% increase, or about $143,000
saved over their lifetime. Andwe also took this a little bit
farther seeing, you know, for acohort. So let's say we had a
cohort of 100 students in oneyear, in that Project SEARCH
model, where we were seeing thatalmost 700% return on investment
(13:20):
in their lifetime. For those 100students, if 70% of them met
that sort of expected outcome,so 30% of them saw no increased
outcome. But even if 70% ofthem, we're looking at an annual
cohort savings over theirlifetime of almost $9 million
(13:41):
really, when Carolyn says, We'renot looking for new money, but
we're looking to reallocatefunds. It's not funds that will
will come and go and bereallocated and not seen. This
is really an investment so thatthose funds, those taxes paid
and funds recouped bygovernment, can be spent on
other things can be spent tohelp further employment, social
(14:05):
services and other things thatour society needs, as well as
the other pieces of it that arenon financial, like contributing
to the workforce, individualscontributing their their diverse
experiences, to our workforceand economy, participation in
reduced negative healthoutcomes, caregivers returning
(14:26):
to the workforce, especially inthe face of a labor market
crisis that we have now and onlyseems to be growing for the
future. So really, what wewanted to understand was, how
big could this potentially be?And now that we have a
benchmark, let's test it out.Let's look at some of those
funding mechanisms that mightwork and see how it plays out.
Amy Widdows (14:48):
So Carol, so Laura, how did you develop this model?
Laura Bowman (14:52):
We wanted to know how we could better support the
sustainability and the spread ofthese start early employees.
Programs for youth withdisabilities, and when we're
talking about a communityinitiative like this, we started
with our community, we askedwhat would be needed to move our
(15:12):
collective work, to move youthwith disabilities into
employment, and change theemployment perspective and the
employment profile of society inOntario towards more disability
inclusion and youth orienteddisability inclusion. How would
we collectively move thatforward? And there were two main
(15:33):
needs when it came to advocacy,two things that stood out when
we went to our group ofcontributors. People wanted real
numbers and real stories. Whenadvocating with governments,
with policy makers, withfunders, our community members
said that stories really explainwhat goes into this funding,
(15:54):
what makes it stand out fromother funding, and how it works,
the intricacies so that policymakers and other contributors
could understand theircollective role, whose role
would be what, and what's goingto come out of it, what they'll
get out of it. But they alsosaid that it's hard to change
funding and policy withouttangible expected outcomes,
(16:15):
without that promise, withoutnumbers. So we undertook a
knowledge mobilizationinitiative to find these two
things. We got our grouptogether and undertake this cost
benefit modeling. We figured, ifwe can't provide data because we
can't fund programs, let'sconsider what we can do, what we
(16:37):
do know. And we know. We knowthings. We know that the program
outcomes, such as those outlinedin the paper and report, are
really positive for youth whoparticipate. We know that they
exceed the public numbers thatwe're seeing. We know the
current tax system in Ontario.We know the social assistance
costs per individual incometaxes tax breaks. We also know
(17:02):
that our colleagues and clientswho work and live with
disabilities want to see thishappen and are motivated, so we
work with community members fromemployment services,
rehabilitation advocacy groupsand policy perspectives to
develop these two personas thatI mentioned earlier. They're two
realistic examples of youth whomight access different types of
(17:25):
start early programs, but notnecessarily based on one
individual, so not calling oneindividual out, but kind of an
amalgam that different groupscontributed to and contributed
to that sort of the intricaciesof the persona in what they see
in their part of the story. Andagain, with these two personas,
(17:46):
we worked with a key advocacyagency, which was Odin and
policy analysts from chronicleanalytics to build the cost
benefit model that projected outthe lifetime costs and benefits.
So Holland Bloorview reallyproviding that on the ground
understanding of programdelivery and research in the
(18:07):
space Odin, providing thatunderstanding of policy,
experiences, advocacy and what'shappening across many different
organizations and employmentservice sectors within Ontario
and Chronicle analytics,providing that policy lens, and
that really disability orientedpolicy lens, and we took our
(18:27):
personas, we put theirhypothetical career
trajectories, with and withoutstart early programs through our
model, and the results, as Imentioned earlier, were really,
really sort of staggering innumber, but not surprising at
how meaningful programs likethis are. If you want to give
the one one caveat that it's atheoretical model, these were
(18:52):
created personas so it canaccount for many things, but but
the model doesn't account foreverything. So for example, it
used a fairly linear, linearcareer trajectory. You know,
there are certain things that wedidn't account for, but it is a
start.
Amy Widdows (19:08):
Obviously, you developed this cost benefit
model with the aim of it beingapplied here in Ontario. But
what do you think could this bea template model for any
government anywhere in NorthAmerica or globally to follow? I
mean, there are a lot of youthwho have a disability around the
world. There was a 2021 UNICEFreport that said there's
something like 240 millionchildren who have a disability
(19:29):
around the world. And if Iremember correctly, that UNICEF
report was the mostcomprehensive statistical
analysis UNICEF has ever done.
Laura Bowman (19:37):
I'll take this one, if that's all right. So in
the peer reviewed publication.So this report actually followed
a peer reviewed publication, butit was based on the old
employment services model. Butin our peer reviewed publication
in frontiers in sociology, wespecifically outlined how the
model was built in quite gooddetail so that it could be.
(20:00):
Rebuilt and replicated in otherplaces. And I know that our
colleagues and co authors fromchronicle analytics have also
already had conversations with acouple of international groups
interested in delving into themodel themselves. So we are
hoping that people can adapt it.That's the goal. That's the
dream. We want more people tobenefit from this, and our focus
(20:20):
had to start somewhere. So westarted with with our own home,
Ontario,
Carolyn McDougall (20:24):
that's maybe a good place to just add that we
really appreciated the expertisethat chronicle analytics brought
to this as well, in terms of thecost benefit methodology they
had done that type of work withother types of social support
programming and, yeah, that wasdefinitely something we relied
(20:45):
on. And we, you know, think thatthat the model and the
information is is interestingand could be adapted, for sure,
Dean Askin (20:54):
you know, Laura, my ears perked up when you were
talking about, you know,there's, you know, the model
crunches the numbers and showsthe numbers. But you mentioned
that you've, you know, youdiscovered that it's
storytelling that really sellsthis model, and that's, that's
marketing, you know, that's thekey. That's marketing 101,
you've got to make the emotionalconnection with your audience.
(21:18):
And telling a, telling a storythat makes the emotional
connection is going to do that.So along that line, in making
that emotional connection forany government or business or
community for that matter,what's the biggest benefit,
benefit of early supportiveyouth who have a disability?
Carolyn McDougall (21:36):
I'll take that one dean. It's Carolyn, and
I'll just this isn't going to bea specific story, but sort of
based on about 20 years ofworking with young people in
early employment programming andseeing them move into work. When
I think about your question,what's the biggest benefit, I
really believe we would seeyoung adults who have
disabilities move into theworkforce more quickly, rather
(22:00):
than potentially being inschool, having long periods of
unemployment and taking a longtime to get into work, working
is just better for socialconnectedness, income and
overall health and well being,like Laura mentioned earlier, we
would also be expandingOntario's labor force and
helping businesses get all theBenefits of a diverse workforce
(22:21):
when when people withdisabilities are included. So
for government and society, itwould mean that we're spending
money to promote employmentinclusion at the right time to
have the biggest potentialimpact. Currently, it just
really seems like we're spendingtoo little too late to actually
help youth who havedisabilities, who face multiple
barriers, move into employment.This point is really highlighted
(22:44):
in May trees like recent August2025 policy brief, underserved
Ontario's integrated employmentservices system and people in
greatest need.
Amy Widdows (22:55):
Thanks, Carolyn, this next question is for either
of you, why aren't we supportingyouth who have a disability the
way we should or could, like themodel you've been outlined and
that of you, you have outlinedin your report. And when I say
we, I'm talking about all of us,government, businesses,
communities, society in general.What do you think? Is it lack of
awareness, or is it more thanthat? Yeah, I
Carolyn McDougall (23:17):
think we need to ask ourselves as a society,
what do we believe and what dowe want to make happen so that
we know that many people whohave disabilities do work and
many others want to work but areunemployed or underemployed. So
are we doing everything that wecan to ensure equity and
(23:37):
opportunity through our policiesas well as our practices as
employers, and also in the typesof programs and supports that we
provide and make make possiblein our communities, specifically
as it relates to youth withdisabilities. And you know, your
question about, you know, whyaren't we supporting I really
(24:00):
think that improving access tosupports and programming while
youth are in high schoolrequires cooperation across
sectors. Youth are often seen asbeing in education and
employment. Preparation throughwork experiences and training
are not always understood asbeing integral parts of that,
(24:20):
but they really are. So wereally need schools and
employment and community andhealth organizations to be
working together in everycommunity to make this possible.
And we need government, theministries that are responsible
for education, employment anddevelopmental services, to also
work together to find workablefunding solutions. I think I
(24:43):
would sum it up by saying, like,we need to be thinking education
plus employment, not education,then employment, and that's what
we're not. We're not we're notdoing that. We're not doing that
yet.
Dean Askin (24:54):
So if that collaboration isn't happening
and all those things aren'thappening, what are we missing?
Out on I mean, or risking by notdoing those things and not
supporting youth who have adisability early.
Carolyn McDougall (25:07):
It's Carolyn again here. So in my own work
with youth, I've seen howimportant it is for young people
to have accessible and inclusiveexperience opportunities during
high school. Often youth whohave disabilities aren't able to
participate, for example, inschool based experiential
learning like that we call co opin Ontario, or volunteering or
(25:28):
paid employment opportunities,because the right supports are
not in place for them or fortheir employers and just and
each year that someone missesout on employment experiences,
it really puts that person at abig disadvantage when trying to
get hired in terms ofexperiences on the resume,
skills, confidence, so manythings. So this effect is
(25:52):
referred to in research andpolicy as employment scarring.
It's periods of unemployment orunderemployment that impact an
individual's long termemployment, including like
earnings and satisfaction, andagain, this in turn, negatively
impacts mental health, socialconnectedness, health and well
being, like Laura mentioned, itcan impact others in the family
(26:14):
circle. It adds to our healthcosts as a society. And for
sure, our labor force is losingout too. We need workers in a
range of industries, and peoplewho live with disabilities are
important co workers and animportant part of our strong
provincial and national talentpool and labor force strategy.
Dean Askin (26:34):
I mean, so these things aren't happening yet.
There's no funding model. Yet,how optimistic are you that
there eventually will be a, youknow, a funding mechanism for
this? And you know, what's yourhope? What would you ultimately
like to see happen as a directresult or impact of this report?
Carolyn McDougall (26:55):
Thanks, Dean. There. There are some youth
employment programs in somecommunities, but as we've been
saying, There should be manymore, and there would be many
more if there was a workable wayto access public funding to pay
for them. So that's what I wantto see, is good quality
employment programming for youthwho have disabilities in every
community in Ontario and Canada.So what we're doing about it
(27:19):
Holland, Bloorview and Odin arein continually encouraging
conversations about youthemployment inclusion and
listening just connecting withpeople. We are continuing to
actively share examples and datawith communities and with
government policy makers forNational Disability Employment
Awareness Month in October,Holland, Bloorview and Odin will
(27:41):
be launching our new employerengagement strategy,
specifically connected to youthwho've been part of the project,
search Transition to Worktraining programs that'll be out
on social media and all thesekinds of things really keep
attention on this topic. Sopersonally, I do feel very
hopeful that we will find waysto fund employment programming
(28:01):
for youth who have disabilities.It's so important. It makes so
much sense. I think we'll getthere.
Dean Askin (28:05):
Laura, I want to throw it over to you too,
because I know you're reallypassionate about what you do,
what's, what's, what's yourultimate hope or vision from all
of this, just as
Laura Bowman (28:14):
Carolyn said, I hope you know a number alone
isn't going to solve anything,and a single story alone isn't
going to solve anything, but Ireally do hope that we can take
this information and we can turnit into change. We can see what
these benefits might be. We cansee what the potential outcomes
(28:37):
are and start working towardsit. And that will take action at
all levels. We need to make surethat we have quality training
programs so that youth who areentering the workforce are
prepared, are ready forthemselves and are ready for the
employers, that employersunderstand what it might look
like to create a disabilityinclusive environment in their
(28:57):
workplace, what an accommodationreally is, what their legal
rights are as employers, and todemystify all of this stuff so
that it can just becomepractice, not disability
inclusive practice, but justpractice in the workplace. We
need public funding because weneed equitable access. We don't
want to create furtherinequities by funding certain
(29:21):
groups in urban centers, or, youknow, having models that only
reach rural groups or only onetype of youth with disabilities,
we need equitable access tothese high quality programs so
that we can get a workforcethat's enabling everyone and
really prioritizing This,knowing that this is a
prioritized priority for ourlabor market, for our society,
(29:45):
and investing it in it as such.So these numbers are really
great, and we're hoping thatthey can start the conversation.
And I joke, because at thebeginning, when we started this,
we were saying, even if this isthe worst cost. Benefit model
for transition, for funding,youth employment, services,
it'll still be the first one,and we hope that it'll encourage
(30:09):
people to write a better one.You think it's bad, great. Tell
us how to make it better. Butlet's start the conversation.
Amy Widdows (30:17):
Thank you for that. Laura and Carolyn, if you had to
choose one, what would be yourmain message to anyone listening
to or following the transcriptof this conversation today?
Laura Bowman (30:30):
If it's okay, I'll take a crack at this. So I think
our main message is that moredisability inclusive workplaces
will have benefits on multiplelevels, including, you know, the
clear financial benefits to thetax paying society outlined in
the report, but also helpaddress the current and growing
labor market shortages. Help todiversify the thinking
(30:53):
productivity and innovation inour workforce, and really, most
importantly, will support theright for Canadians to work, all
Canadians who can work to work.And we know that that won't just
happen organically. We need toadvocate for disability,
inclusive practices, policiesand supports. We you know, the
more we publicly and equitablyfund start early programs for
(31:18):
employment across the province,the country, the world, the more
prepared and productive ourfuture employees can be, and the
more opportunities they'll haveto contribute to our workforce
and to our society. So we reallyhope that people will read our
report and review the resourcesthat are linked in the show
notes and that Carolyn mentionedearlier, talk to their
(31:40):
companies, talk to their localgovernments, use the advocacy
tools that are available, that'swhat they're for, and really
understand the importance for usall to make this happen with
equitable and appropriatefunding and make it happen now.
Dean Askin (31:55):
Wow. What a what a conversation. I mean, it's
always, it's always greattalking, talking with you folks,
but I have to ask as we, as wewrap this up. You know, you've
mentioned a lot of differentthings about this, but have we
covered all the essentials? Isthere anything we haven't talked
about that you think isimportant to mention before we
(32:18):
wrap up the show?
Laura Bowman (32:20):
Dean, did we mention we have advocacy tools
on the website?
Dean Askin (32:26):
Really? Someone said
Laura Bowman (32:29):
something about, I think Carolyn read out the whole
website. No, I think you havekindly mentioned to put it in
the show notes. But again, it'sHolland. Bloorview.ca/advocacy,
check it out, use the tools.That's what they're there for.
So really, just hoping peoplecan get involved and reach out
to us if they have questions aswell.
Amy Widdows (32:49):
Well, Carolyn and Laura, this has been a great
conversation and and we have, wehave shared that Odin was a
partner in in the report, but Iwant to thank you personally for
for your organization support totake the lead on this project,
because youth employment is apersonal passion of mine as
well, from my my history andfrom my experience working with
(33:12):
people who have a disability myentire life. So I do. Thank you
so much for your perseveranceand your your complete
dedication to this, to thismodel, and to the projects that
are aligning in Ontario, orhopefully to align in Ontario,
and the funding that needs tohappen to support it. But thanks
(33:32):
again for coming on the show andtalking about why this report
and what it means and why it'sso important. It's thanks for
Dean Askin (33:45):
having us. And I have to say, it's always a
pleasure talking with you folksfrom home. Blue review, so
thanks for me as well. LaurenCarolyn, you know it's, you
know, it's like you wrote inthat first bold faced sentence
that I read in the executivesummary, summary of the report,
when people with disabilitiesare included in the workforce,
everyone benefits. I mean, it'sas simple as that. You know,
(34:06):
there's, there's always a lot oftalk on social media about
different work ethics of thedifferent generations. But I
guess the main thing toremember, remember Here is
today's youth. Well, they're theworkforce of the future, right?
I mean, and that includes youthwho have a disability. I'm
reminded of the 2019, TDEconomics Report that called
people who have a disability,the secret weapon businesses
(34:29):
need to hire to staycompetitive. We did a great show
about that with Paul Clark fromTD way back. And you know that
secret weapon, those people,that also includes youth who
have a disability. So it'll beinteresting to look back at the
five year mark of the release ofthis report and have another
conversation about what theimpact and results have been.
But hey, that's a bit down theroad.
Amy Widdows (34:51):
Speaking of that, we're at the end of the road for
this episode of You can't spellinclusion without a D. I'm Amy
widows, thanks again for joiningus, and be sure to tune in now.
Next month, we're bringing youtwo episodes in October during
National Disability EmploymentAwareness Month, in Episode 38
on October 14, we'll have aconversation about the self
employment journey for peoplewho have a disability with two
(35:13):
guests who took that route. Andlater in October, we'll be
starting another series onintersectionality and disability
to end our podcast season againthis year.
Dean Askin (35:23):
That's right. Amy part one episode 39 is coming
your way. October 28 that's theend of end, Dean, we'll be
tackling the intersection ofblackness, disability and
gender. I'm Dean Askin. Thanksagain for listening wherever,
whenever and on whatever podcastapp you're listening from. Join
us each episode as we haveinsightful conversations like
(35:43):
this one with Laura Bowman andCarolyn McDougall and explore
disability inclusion in businessand in our communities from all
the angles you can't spellinclusion without a D, as
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network, our podcastproduction team, executive
producer and co host Amywiddows, our producer is Sue
(36:05):
Defoe, associate producer and cohost Dean Askin. Audio editing
and production is by Dean Askin.Our podcast theme is last summer
by ixin. If you have feedback orcomments about an episode, email
us at info at oda network.comthat's info at O, d, e, n, e, t,
w, O, R, k.com, join us eachepisode for insights from expert
(36:27):
guests as we explore the powerof inclusion, the business
benefits of inclusive hiring andfostering an inclusive culture,
and why disability is animportant part of the diversity,
equity, inclusion andaccessibility conversation. Tune
into you can't spell inclusionwithout a dean podbean or
wherever you find your favoritepodcasts you.
Announcer, this is you can't spell inclusion
without a dean. The podcast thatexplores the power of inclusion
in business, in employment, ineducation and in our
communities, and why disabilityis an important part of the
diversity, equity, inclusion andaccessibility. Conversation with
your hosts, Amy widdows and DeanAskin.
(00:28):
Hello there, and welcome to theshow. This is episode 37 of you
can't spell inclusion without aD. Well, it's September. Back to
school. Time for students acrossCanada, across North America, at
all levels of course, elementaryschool, middle school, high
school and college anduniversity students. So this
(00:48):
Back to School Month is a goodtime to talk about supporting
youth who have a disability sothey can transition to
employment from high school orpost secondary education. Hi
there. I'm Dean Askin. Researchshows that young people who have
a disability have a betterchance of long term success in
the workforce if they have apart time job while they're
finishing high school.
Amy Widdows (01:09):
That's right, Dean, Hi, I'm Amy widows at the other
mic, the 2022 Canadian survey ondisability showed that 20% of
Canadian youth have adisability. That's more than
546,000 young people. And thenthere are all the young people
who have a disability, who arenot in education, employment or
training or NEET. That's n e tfor short, here in Canada,
(01:34):
that's 108,790 young people, and77% of them, almost 84,000 youth
have been identified aspotential employees. These stats
come from Employment and SocialDevelopment Canada, by the way.
Dean Askin (01:48):
So the statistics show there are a lot of youth
who have a disability who canand want to work. The big
question is, are we doing enoughto support them so they can
contribute to businesses thatneed employees and contribute to
their communities and theeconomy. A report released in
September 2024 suggests not andit outlines a public funding
(02:10):
cost benefit model of a stable,equitable start early programs
that show as small publicinvestment per person has a big
lifetime return on investmentfor government.
Amy Widdows (02:22):
That report is titled funding employment
inclusion for Ontario youth withdisabilities, a cost benefit
model. Full disclosure here, theOntario Disability Employment
Network was involved in thisreport. It was a collaboration
between hull and Bloorview KidsRehabilitation Hospital,
chronicle analytics and Odin nowhere we are, September 2025 it's
(02:44):
been almost exactly a year sincethe report was released.
Dean Askin (02:48):
Holland bloru, you spearheaded the report, so we
thought, let's bring in theleads from Holland blue review
and find out what's beenhappening in the year since
funding employment inclusion forOntario youth with disabilities
was released and presented tothe Ontario government. Laura
Bowman is Project ManagerResearch and Evaluation
employment pathways at Hall andblue review in Toronto. By the
(03:11):
way, this is Laura's secondguesting on you can't spell
inclusion without a D thisseason, Laura was on the show
back in June on episode 34 parttwo in our sector series, when
we looked at the Inspire, hire,train, retain, disability
inclusion initiative in theOntario healthcare sector.
Amy Widdows (03:27):
And Carolyn McDougall is here for the first
time. Carolyn is manageremployment pathways all in
Bloorview. Laura, welcome backand Carolyn, welcome to you
can't spell inclusion without aDean. Thanks for coming on the
show to give us an update onwhat's been happening since the
funding employment inclusion forOntario youth with disabilities
report was released. Thanks forhaving us before we get into
(03:50):
what's been going on this yearsince the report was published.
I want to ask why was thisreport the cost benefit model
important to publish in thefirst place?
Laura Bowman (04:00):
Work is a social determinant of health, so access
to employment gives peoplefinancial security, social
connection, confidence and prideand the ability to contribute to
society. It's important forindividuals and families, and
it's important to ourcommunities and society. But we
know that people withdisabilities are employed at
(04:21):
much lower rates than thosewithout disabilities, and that
rate increases as theinvolvement or severity of the
disability does. And as you weresaying in the introduction, Amy
and Dean, you know this isreaching really high thresholds,
especially with youth. So how dowe fix that. How you know? We
(04:42):
know based on research evidence,based on publicly available
statistics and our ownexperience that starting early,
as early as high school, withwork related experience leads to
better lifetime work outcomesand work connection for youth
with disabilities and. Theseprograms that help connect youth
with disabilities to employmentare not available with sort of
(05:07):
equal frequency, equal qualityand equal accessibility across
the province of Ontario. So weknow that these programs are
essential to connect youth withdisabilities to employment, and
we know that they're notequitably available. One of the
major barriers for youthaccessing programs like these is
funding. It's tricky becausepublicly available funding to
(05:29):
support job seekers andemployees with disabilities is
often not available for youthwho are still in high school,
which is a developmentallyimportant time to start. So here
we are. We can't argue to startearly to fund start early
employment programming for youthwith disabilities, without
(05:50):
demonstrated program andfinancial outcomes for these
programs, but we can't report onthese outcomes because we don't
have funded programs. So we'restuck in this catch 22 really
not knowing how to get thingsstarted, and so we chose to
partner with Odin yourself as aleading voice in disability
(06:11):
inclusive employment in Ontario,and with chronicle analytics,
who's a group of policy analyststo help further investigate what
do we already know about startearly programming and the
important outcomes, and what dowe know about how we can get
youth into these programs anddemonstrate their effectiveness,
so that they could be betterfunded across Ontario? And with
(06:34):
that, we gathered a group ofservice providers, advocates,
researchers, policy analysts andothers who want to seek funding,
and we sought funding from theGovernment of Ontario to better
understand how to address thisissue. So that's the very long
story about how it came about.
Amy Widdows (06:53):
Well, thank you. Carolyn, Laura, it's been a
year. What's been happeningsince this was released?
September 2024 what's been thereaction from businesses and
government, from the disabilitysector and from communities?
Carolyn McDougall (07:06):
So hi, it's Carolyn to take on this one just
by I wanted to add to theintroduction to say I am the
manager of employment Pathwaysprograms for youth at Holland
Bloorview. I also coordinate thenetwork of Project Search,
Transition to Work trainingprograms in Ontario, and that'll
(07:26):
be relevant in answering this ina minute. So so we can say,
after releasing this costbenefit report, together with
Odin and Chronicle analytics, wedeveloped advocacy tools to
accompany the report, and theyinclude a call to action, slide
deck and a letter thatcommunities can use to engage
support on this topic. Thereport and those tools are
(07:49):
available on the HollandBloorview website. So it's
Holland blurview.ca/advocacy,and you go to disability in the
workplace, and we introducedthese tools at an ODIN
connection event last fall. Soit was to an audience of
employment serviceorganizations, community
developmental serviceorganizations, schools and
policy makers, and then weshared them with also the
(08:10):
network of schools andemployment organizations and
host businesses who arecurrently operating Project
Search, Transition to Workprogramming. So definitely
groups are talking about youthemployment and using this
information regularly, most orimportantly in general, Odin has
organized opportunities to speakabout funding youth employment
(08:31):
programming with Ontario'sministries of labor, children,
Community and Social Services,Education, seniors and
accessibility and training incolleges, generally, reactions
are always very positive. Peoplereally do know that early
intervention is good policy, andthe numbers in the cost benefit
(08:51):
report add quantitativeinformation to what's known to
be best practice and all theindividual impact stories about
youth employment, I want to saythat with a in particular, with
the transition to work trainingprogram model like Project
Search, we're actually notasking for new money. We are
(09:11):
asking government to work withus to look at how existing
funding streams could be tappedto make effective programming
for youth employment possiblewhile young people are in high
school. So we're not quite yetthere yet in terms of having
publicly available andsustainable mechanisms for this,
(09:32):
but we're in active discussions,and we're hopeful.
Dean Askin (09:35):
Now, this report, you know, it's, you know, it's,
it illustrates the cost benefitmodel, and there's numbers
involved, but in layman's terms,so that people listening to the
episode or following thetranscript right now, I mean, so
they can understand, in plainlanguage, what are those
potential cost benefits of earlysupport?
Laura Bowman (09:58):
A really great question. Do. Dean, we have a
great deal of evidence regardingthe benefits of employment and
employment programs forindividuals with disabilities.
We know that. You know, from aperson level, people are
connected to work. It'smeaningful in their lives. What
we focused more on in thisreport is the costs and benefits
(10:19):
to society. So rather than beinga question of, what does it do
for them, if you are in theoutside group, what does it do
to help an individual withdisability or a group of
individuals with disability, wereally try to look at the idea
of, what does it mean for all ofus, for the collective, for the
tax paying public to run theseprograms and to publicly invest
(10:43):
in these programs with fundsthat we all contribute through
our taxes, really focusing onmoney retained by government. So
what we looked at is, ifgovernment helped to contribute
to, let's say job coaches orskills trainers or employees to
run a program for transition toemployment for youth while still
(11:09):
in high school withdisabilities. What would that
save government in the future?We looked at cost savings,
including reduced socialassistance funds, like
disability supports, like inOntario, we have ODSP. We also
looked at benefits returned togovernment that would be
increased through things likeincome taxes paid and
(11:30):
contributions to registeredsavings programs that offer
financial incentives andstability and ultimately reduce
government supports paid outagain. We modeled it over the
working life of an individual.So we're going to talk a little
bit later about personas.Probably we looked at realistic
personas of individuals withdisabilities that might go
(11:50):
through the types of programs weoutlined, like Holland, Bloor,
abuse, employment pathways,programs and the Project SEARCH
model that Carolyn mentionedpreviously, and what it might
look like for someone who leftschool or university at 2122
over their lifetime careertrajectory, so until 65 what
(12:11):
would the cost savings be togovernment if they did not
attend these programs? So abaseline, and if they did attend
these programs, and what wefound was pretty staggering. So
for example, for someone whoparticipated in a Project SEARCH
program, we anticipated about a$16,000 one time investment for
the government to support theirparticipation in a program, and
(12:35):
over their lifetime, thegovernment would see a 700%
return on investment, whichreally accounts to almost
$130,000 in savings for thatindividual, and with some of our
employment Pathways Programs,similarly, a little over $16,000
(12:56):
investment, We're looking at a750% increase, or about $143,000
saved over their lifetime. Andwe also took this a little bit
farther seeing, you know, for acohort. So let's say we had a
cohort of 100 students in oneyear, in that Project SEARCH
model, where we were seeing thatalmost 700% return on investment
(13:20):
in their lifetime. For those 100students, if 70% of them met
that sort of expected outcome,so 30% of them saw no increased
outcome. But even if 70% ofthem, we're looking at an annual
cohort savings over theirlifetime of almost $9 million
(13:41):
really, when Carolyn says, We'renot looking for new money, but
we're looking to reallocatefunds. It's not funds that will
will come and go and bereallocated and not seen. This
is really an investment so thatthose funds, those taxes paid
and funds recouped bygovernment, can be spent on
other things can be spent tohelp further employment, social
(14:05):
services and other things thatour society needs, as well as
the other pieces of it that arenon financial, like contributing
to the workforce, individualscontributing their their diverse
experiences, to our workforceand economy, participation in
reduced negative healthoutcomes, caregivers returning
(14:26):
to the workforce, especially inthe face of a labor market
crisis that we have now and onlyseems to be growing for the
future. So really, what wewanted to understand was, how
big could this potentially be?And now that we have a
benchmark, let's test it out.Let's look at some of those
funding mechanisms that mightwork and see how it plays out.
Amy Widdows (14:48):
So Carol, so Laura, how did you develop this model?
Laura Bowman (14:52):
We wanted to know how we could better support the
sustainability and the spread ofthese start early employees.
Programs for youth withdisabilities, and when we're
talking about a communityinitiative like this, we started
with our community, we askedwhat would be needed to move our
(15:12):
collective work, to move youthwith disabilities into
employment, and change theemployment perspective and the
employment profile of society inOntario towards more disability
inclusion and youth orienteddisability inclusion. How would
we collectively move thatforward? And there were two main
(15:33):
needs when it came to advocacy,two things that stood out when
we went to our group ofcontributors. People wanted real
numbers and real stories. Whenadvocating with governments,
with policy makers, withfunders, our community members
said that stories really explainwhat goes into this funding,
(15:54):
what makes it stand out fromother funding, and how it works,
the intricacies so that policymakers and other contributors
could understand theircollective role, whose role
would be what, and what's goingto come out of it, what they'll
get out of it. But they alsosaid that it's hard to change
funding and policy withouttangible expected outcomes,
(16:15):
without that promise, withoutnumbers. So we undertook a
knowledge mobilizationinitiative to find these two
things. We got our grouptogether and undertake this cost
benefit modeling. We figured, ifwe can't provide data because we
can't fund programs, let'sconsider what we can do, what we
(16:37):
do know. And we know. We knowthings. We know that the program
outcomes, such as those outlinedin the paper and report, are
really positive for youth whoparticipate. We know that they
exceed the public numbers thatwe're seeing. We know the
current tax system in Ontario.We know the social assistance
costs per individual incometaxes tax breaks. We also know
(17:02):
that our colleagues and clientswho work and live with
disabilities want to see thishappen and are motivated, so we
work with community members fromemployment services,
rehabilitation advocacy groupsand policy perspectives to
develop these two personas thatI mentioned earlier. They're two
realistic examples of youth whomight access different types of
(17:25):
start early programs, but notnecessarily based on one
individual, so not calling oneindividual out, but kind of an
amalgam that different groupscontributed to and contributed
to that sort of the intricaciesof the persona in what they see
in their part of the story. Andagain, with these two personas,
(17:46):
we worked with a key advocacyagency, which was Odin and
policy analysts from chronicleanalytics to build the cost
benefit model that projected outthe lifetime costs and benefits.
So Holland Bloorview reallyproviding that on the ground
understanding of programdelivery and research in the
(18:07):
space Odin, providing thatunderstanding of policy,
experiences, advocacy and what'shappening across many different
organizations and employmentservice sectors within Ontario
and Chronicle analytics,providing that policy lens, and
that really disability orientedpolicy lens, and we took our
(18:27):
personas, we put theirhypothetical career
trajectories, with and withoutstart early programs through our
model, and the results, as Imentioned earlier, were really,
really sort of staggering innumber, but not surprising at
how meaningful programs likethis are. If you want to give
the one one caveat that it's atheoretical model, these were
(18:52):
created personas so it canaccount for many things, but but
the model doesn't account foreverything. So for example, it
used a fairly linear, linearcareer trajectory. You know,
there are certain things that wedidn't account for, but it is a
start.
Amy Widdows (19:08):
Obviously, you developed this cost benefit
model with the aim of it beingapplied here in Ontario. But
what do you think could this bea template model for any
government anywhere in NorthAmerica or globally to follow? I
mean, there are a lot of youthwho have a disability around the
world. There was a 2021 UNICEFreport that said there's
something like 240 millionchildren who have a disability
(19:29):
around the world. And if Iremember correctly, that UNICEF
report was the mostcomprehensive statistical
analysis UNICEF has ever done.
Laura Bowman (19:37):
I'll take this one, if that's all right. So in
the peer reviewed publication.So this report actually followed
a peer reviewed publication, butit was based on the old
employment services model. Butin our peer reviewed publication
in frontiers in sociology, wespecifically outlined how the
model was built in quite gooddetail so that it could be.
(20:00):
Rebuilt and replicated in otherplaces. And I know that our
colleagues and co authors fromchronicle analytics have also
already had conversations with acouple of international groups
interested in delving into themodel themselves. So we are
hoping that people can adapt it.That's the goal. That's the
dream. We want more people tobenefit from this, and our focus
(20:20):
had to start somewhere. So westarted with with our own home,
Ontario,
Carolyn McDougall (20:24):
that's maybe a good place to just add that we
really appreciated the expertisethat chronicle analytics brought
to this as well, in terms of thecost benefit methodology they
had done that type of work withother types of social support
programming and, yeah, that wasdefinitely something we relied
(20:45):
on. And we, you know, think thatthat the model and the
information is is interestingand could be adapted, for sure,
Dean Askin (20:54):
you know, Laura, my ears perked up when you were
talking about, you know,there's, you know, the model
crunches the numbers and showsthe numbers. But you mentioned
that you've, you know, youdiscovered that it's
storytelling that really sellsthis model, and that's, that's
marketing, you know, that's thekey. That's marketing 101,
you've got to make the emotionalconnection with your audience.
(21:18):
And telling a, telling a storythat makes the emotional
connection is going to do that.So along that line, in making
that emotional connection forany government or business or
community for that matter,what's the biggest benefit,
benefit of early supportiveyouth who have a disability?
Carolyn McDougall (21:36):
I'll take that one dean. It's Carolyn, and
I'll just this isn't going to bea specific story, but sort of
based on about 20 years ofworking with young people in
early employment programming andseeing them move into work. When
I think about your question,what's the biggest benefit, I
really believe we would seeyoung adults who have
disabilities move into theworkforce more quickly, rather
(22:00):
than potentially being inschool, having long periods of
unemployment and taking a longtime to get into work, working
is just better for socialconnectedness, income and
overall health and well being,like Laura mentioned earlier, we
would also be expandingOntario's labor force and
helping businesses get all theBenefits of a diverse workforce
(22:21):
when when people withdisabilities are included. So
for government and society, itwould mean that we're spending
money to promote employmentinclusion at the right time to
have the biggest potentialimpact. Currently, it just
really seems like we're spendingtoo little too late to actually
help youth who havedisabilities, who face multiple
barriers, move into employment.This point is really highlighted
(22:44):
in May trees like recent August2025 policy brief, underserved
Ontario's integrated employmentservices system and people in
greatest need.
Amy Widdows (22:55):
Thanks, Carolyn, this next question is for either
of you, why aren't we supportingyouth who have a disability the
way we should or could, like themodel you've been outlined and
that of you, you have outlinedin your report. And when I say
we, I'm talking about all of us,government, businesses,
communities, society in general.What do you think? Is it lack of
awareness, or is it more thanthat? Yeah, I
Carolyn McDougall (23:17):
think we need to ask ourselves as a society,
what do we believe and what dowe want to make happen so that
we know that many people whohave disabilities do work and
many others want to work but areunemployed or underemployed. So
are we doing everything that wecan to ensure equity and
(23:37):
opportunity through our policiesas well as our practices as
employers, and also in the typesof programs and supports that we
provide and make make possiblein our communities, specifically
as it relates to youth withdisabilities. And you know, your
question about, you know, whyaren't we supporting I really
(24:00):
think that improving access tosupports and programming while
youth are in high schoolrequires cooperation across
sectors. Youth are often seen asbeing in education and
employment. Preparation throughwork experiences and training
are not always understood asbeing integral parts of that,
(24:20):
but they really are. So wereally need schools and
employment and community andhealth organizations to be
working together in everycommunity to make this possible.
And we need government, theministries that are responsible
for education, employment anddevelopmental services, to also
work together to find workablefunding solutions. I think I
(24:43):
would sum it up by saying, like,we need to be thinking education
plus employment, not education,then employment, and that's what
we're not. We're not we're notdoing that. We're not doing that
yet.
Dean Askin (24:54):
So if that collaboration isn't happening
and all those things aren'thappening, what are we missing?
Out on I mean, or risking by notdoing those things and not
supporting youth who have adisability early.
Carolyn McDougall (25:07):
It's Carolyn again here. So in my own work
with youth, I've seen howimportant it is for young people
to have accessible and inclusiveexperience opportunities during
high school. Often youth whohave disabilities aren't able to
participate, for example, inschool based experiential
learning like that we call co opin Ontario, or volunteering or
(25:28):
paid employment opportunities,because the right supports are
not in place for them or fortheir employers and just and
each year that someone missesout on employment experiences,
it really puts that person at abig disadvantage when trying to
get hired in terms ofexperiences on the resume,
skills, confidence, so manythings. So this effect is
(25:52):
referred to in research andpolicy as employment scarring.
It's periods of unemployment orunderemployment that impact an
individual's long termemployment, including like
earnings and satisfaction, andagain, this in turn, negatively
impacts mental health, socialconnectedness, health and well
being, like Laura mentioned, itcan impact others in the family
(26:14):
circle. It adds to our healthcosts as a society. And for
sure, our labor force is losingout too. We need workers in a
range of industries, and peoplewho live with disabilities are
important co workers and animportant part of our strong
provincial and national talentpool and labor force strategy.
Dean Askin (26:34):
I mean, so these things aren't happening yet.
There's no funding model. Yet,how optimistic are you that
there eventually will be a, youknow, a funding mechanism for
this? And you know, what's yourhope? What would you ultimately
like to see happen as a directresult or impact of this report?
Carolyn McDougall (26:55):
Thanks, Dean. There. There are some youth
employment programs in somecommunities, but as we've been
saying, There should be manymore, and there would be many
more if there was a workable wayto access public funding to pay
for them. So that's what I wantto see, is good quality
employment programming for youthwho have disabilities in every
community in Ontario and Canada.So what we're doing about it
(27:19):
Holland, Bloorview and Odin arein continually encouraging
conversations about youthemployment inclusion and
listening just connecting withpeople. We are continuing to
actively share examples and datawith communities and with
government policy makers forNational Disability Employment
Awareness Month in October,Holland, Bloorview and Odin will
(27:41):
be launching our new employerengagement strategy,
specifically connected to youthwho've been part of the project,
search Transition to Worktraining programs that'll be out
on social media and all thesekinds of things really keep
attention on this topic. Sopersonally, I do feel very
hopeful that we will find waysto fund employment programming
(28:01):
for youth who have disabilities.It's so important. It makes so
much sense. I think we'll getthere.
Dean Askin (28:05):
Laura, I want to throw it over to you too,
because I know you're reallypassionate about what you do,
what's, what's, what's yourultimate hope or vision from all
of this, just as
Laura Bowman (28:14):
Carolyn said, I hope you know a number alone
isn't going to solve anything,and a single story alone isn't
going to solve anything, but Ireally do hope that we can take
this information and we can turnit into change. We can see what
these benefits might be. We cansee what the potential outcomes
(28:37):
are and start working towardsit. And that will take action at
all levels. We need to make surethat we have quality training
programs so that youth who areentering the workforce are
prepared, are ready forthemselves and are ready for the
employers, that employersunderstand what it might look
like to create a disabilityinclusive environment in their
(28:57):
workplace, what an accommodationreally is, what their legal
rights are as employers, and todemystify all of this stuff so
that it can just becomepractice, not disability
inclusive practice, but justpractice in the workplace. We
need public funding because weneed equitable access. We don't
want to create furtherinequities by funding certain
(29:21):
groups in urban centers, or, youknow, having models that only
reach rural groups or only onetype of youth with disabilities,
we need equitable access tothese high quality programs so
that we can get a workforcethat's enabling everyone and
really prioritizing This,knowing that this is a
prioritized priority for ourlabor market, for our society,
(29:45):
and investing it in it as such.So these numbers are really
great, and we're hoping thatthey can start the conversation.
And I joke, because at thebeginning, when we started this,
we were saying, even if this isthe worst cost. Benefit model
for transition, for funding,youth employment, services,
it'll still be the first one,and we hope that it'll encourage
(30:09):
people to write a better one.You think it's bad, great. Tell
us how to make it better. Butlet's start the conversation.
Amy Widdows (30:17):
Thank you for that. Laura and Carolyn, if you had to
choose one, what would be yourmain message to anyone listening
to or following the transcriptof this conversation today?
Laura Bowman (30:30):
If it's okay, I'll take a crack at this. So I think
our main message is that moredisability inclusive workplaces
will have benefits on multiplelevels, including, you know, the
clear financial benefits to thetax paying society outlined in
the report, but also helpaddress the current and growing
labor market shortages. Help todiversify the thinking
(30:53):
productivity and innovation inour workforce, and really, most
importantly, will support theright for Canadians to work, all
Canadians who can work to work.And we know that that won't just
happen organically. We need toadvocate for disability,
inclusive practices, policiesand supports. We you know, the
more we publicly and equitablyfund start early programs for
(31:18):
employment across the province,the country, the world, the more
prepared and productive ourfuture employees can be, and the
more opportunities they'll haveto contribute to our workforce
and to our society. So we reallyhope that people will read our
report and review the resourcesthat are linked in the show
notes and that Carolyn mentionedearlier, talk to their
(31:40):
companies, talk to their localgovernments, use the advocacy
tools that are available, that'swhat they're for, and really
understand the importance for usall to make this happen with
equitable and appropriatefunding and make it happen now.
Dean Askin (31:55):
Wow. What a what a conversation. I mean, it's
always, it's always greattalking, talking with you folks,
but I have to ask as we, as wewrap this up. You know, you've
mentioned a lot of differentthings about this, but have we
covered all the essentials? Isthere anything we haven't talked
about that you think isimportant to mention before we
(32:18):
wrap up the show?
Laura Bowman (32:20):
Dean, did we mention we have advocacy tools
on the website?
Dean Askin (32:26):
Really? Someone said
Laura Bowman (32:29):
something about, I think Carolyn read out the whole
website. No, I think you havekindly mentioned to put it in
the show notes. But again, it'sHolland. Bloorview.ca/advocacy,
check it out, use the tools.That's what they're there for.
So really, just hoping peoplecan get involved and reach out
to us if they have questions aswell.
Amy Widdows (32:49):
Well, Carolyn and Laura, this has been a great
conversation and and we have, wehave shared that Odin was a
partner in in the report, but Iwant to thank you personally for
for your organization support totake the lead on this project,
because youth employment is apersonal passion of mine as
well, from my my history andfrom my experience working with
(33:12):
people who have a disability myentire life. So I do. Thank you
so much for your perseveranceand your your complete
dedication to this, to thismodel, and to the projects that
are aligning in Ontario, orhopefully to align in Ontario,
and the funding that needs tohappen to support it. But thanks
(33:32):
again for coming on the show andtalking about why this report
and what it means and why it'sso important. It's thanks for
Dean Askin (33:45):
having us. And I have to say, it's always a
pleasure talking with you folksfrom home. Blue review, so
thanks for me as well. LaurenCarolyn, you know it's, you
know, it's like you wrote inthat first bold faced sentence
that I read in the executivesummary, summary of the report,
when people with disabilitiesare included in the workforce,
everyone benefits. I mean, it'sas simple as that. You know,
(34:06):
there's, there's always a lot oftalk on social media about
different work ethics of thedifferent generations. But I
guess the main thing toremember, remember Here is
today's youth. Well, they're theworkforce of the future, right?
I mean, and that includes youthwho have a disability. I'm
reminded of the 2019, TDEconomics Report that called
people who have a disability,the secret weapon businesses
(34:29):
need to hire to staycompetitive. We did a great show
about that with Paul Clark fromTD way back. And you know that
secret weapon, those people,that also includes youth who
have a disability. So it'll beinteresting to look back at the
five year mark of the release ofthis report and have another
conversation about what theimpact and results have been.
But hey, that's a bit down theroad.
Amy Widdows (34:51):
Speaking of that, we're at the end of the road for
this episode of You can't spellinclusion without a D. I'm Amy
widows, thanks again for joiningus, and be sure to tune in now.
Next month, we're bringing youtwo episodes in October during
National Disability EmploymentAwareness Month, in Episode 38
on October 14, we'll have aconversation about the self
employment journey for peoplewho have a disability with two
(35:13):
guests who took that route. Andlater in October, we'll be
starting another series onintersectionality and disability
to end our podcast season againthis year.
Dean Askin (35:23):
That's right. Amy part one episode 39 is coming
your way. October 28 that's theend of end, Dean, we'll be
tackling the intersection ofblackness, disability and
gender. I'm Dean Askin. Thanksagain for listening wherever,
whenever and on whatever podcastapp you're listening from. Join
us each episode as we haveinsightful conversations like
(35:43):
this one with Laura Bowman andCarolyn McDougall and explore
disability inclusion in businessand in our communities from all
the angles you can't spellinclusion without a D, as
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network, our podcastproduction team, executive
producer and co host Amywiddows, our producer is Sue
(36:05):
Defoe, associate producer and cohost Dean Askin. Audio editing
and production is by Dean Askin.Our podcast theme is last summer
by ixin. If you have feedback orcomments about an episode, email
us at info at oda network.comthat's info at O, d, e, n, e, t,
w, O, R, k.com, join us eachepisode for insights from expert
(36:27):
guests as we explore the powerof inclusion, the business
benefits of inclusive hiring andfostering an inclusive culture,
and why disability is animportant part of the diversity,
equity, inclusion andaccessibility conversation. Tune
into you can't spell inclusionwithout a dean podbean or
wherever you find your favoritepodcasts you.
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