October 14, 2025 • 51 mins
October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. Or NDEAM, as it's known for short.
This month across Canada, NDEAM campaigns are focusing on raising awareness about disability-inclusive hiring…disability inclusion throughout the employment cycle…breaking down barriers to employment for people who have a disability…and creating a disability-inclusive workplace and culture.
So every season, we like to tie our October episode to NDEAM.
This episode, we’re delving into an aspect of disability and employment that seems to be not talked about a whole lot in the conversation about disability and employment.
We’re exploring the self-employment journey for people who have a disability.
There isn’t a lot of research or statistics about it.
And there isn’t a lot of data on why people who have a disability go the self-employment route.
Are there unique challenges faced by people who have a disability, who opt for self-employment?
What supports are out there compared to supports for traditional job seekers?
Some of the questions we’re exploring with our two guests as they share their self-employment journeys and experiences with us in this episode.
Catch this conversation with Margaux Wosk and Jeff Tiessen.
SHOW NOTES
- Episode 38 transcript (PDF)
- Find Margaux Wosk on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok: @retrophiliac
- Margaux Wosk’s websites: Etsy Store | Shop Retrophiliac
- Get in touch with Jeff Tiessen by email
- Disability Today Magazine
- Jeff’s LinkedIn profile
- Margaux’s LinkedIn profile
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dean Askin (00:00):
Dean, this is You Can't Spell Inclusion Without a
(00:04):
D, the podcast that explores thepower of inclusion in business,
in employment, in education andin our communities, and why
disability is an important partof the diversity, equity,
inclusion and accessibility.Conversation with your hosts,
Amy Widdows and Dean Askin.
(00:28):
Hello and thanks for joining us.Where does the time go? I mean,
where does the podcast seasongo? First, it's April, and
spring's finally in the air, andwe're just kicking off our 2025
season. Now suddenly it's themiddle of October. There's a
fall chill in the air, and oursixth season is starting to wind
down. This is episode 38 of YouCan't Spell Inclusion Without a
(00:51):
D. Hi there. I'm Dean Askin. AmyWiddows is away, so my colleague
Jenny Hope — she's the Directorof Development and Capacity
Building on the ODEN team, andshe's sitting in for Amy again
at the other mic. Hello there.Jenny, great to have you back. I
know you've always got a packedcalendar, so I'm glad you could
fit in this second guest cohosting gig. How are you doing?
Jenny Hope (01:15):
Hi, Dean. I'm doing great. You know, I could get
used to this. I had a lot offun, co hosting episode 36 and
just a reminder for everybodylistening. If you haven't caught
that episode yet, be sure to dothat. We had a great
conversation with Andrea D.Carter about psychological
safety and belonging inworkplaces.
Dean Askin (01:36):
Yeah, that was two episodes back, and jeez, just a
couple more episodes left,coming your way. Listeners, next
month. But wait a minute, I'mgetting ahead of myself here.
Let's talk about this episode.You know, October is always a
big month for us here on youcan't spell inclusion without a
D. That's because October isNational Disability Employment
Awareness Month, or NDEAM, asit's known for short,
Jenny Hope (02:00):
This month across Canada, end Dean campaigns are
focusing on raising awarenessabout disability inclusive
hiring, disability inclusionthroughout the employment cycle,
breaking down barriers toemployment for people who have a
disability, and creating adisability inclusive workplace
and culture.
Dean Askin (02:18):
That's right. Jenny, so every season, we like to tie
our October episode to NDEAM.This episode, we're delving into
an aspect of disability andemployment that seems to be not
talked about a whole lot in theconversation about disability
and employment. We're exploringthe self employment journey for
people who have a disability,
Jenny Hope (02:38):
And there isn't a lot of research or statistics
about it, small businesses arethe backbone of the economy in
both the US and Canada. Theymake up 97.9% of all businesses
in Canada and 99% in the US. Butthere aren't many statistics
about how many small to mediumbusinesses are owned by people
who have a disability, whetherthey're employer owned SMBs,
(03:02):
solopreneur ships or freelancebusinesses.
Dean Askin (03:05):
And Jenny there isn't a lot of data on why
people who have a disability gothe self employment route. Now,
the first ever national study onpeople who have a disability who
are self employed was done 24years ago. Why done way back in
2001 it was done in the US bythe National Institute on
(03:25):
Disability and Rehabilitationresearchers, Research and
Training Center on Ruralrehabilitation services. In
conjunction with the RuralInstitute on Disabilities, an
affiliate of Montana University,
Jenny Hope (03:40):
The study found over 40% of respondents said they
became entrepreneurs becausethey needed to create their own
job. A similar number ofrespondents said they needed the
flexible hours and workingconditions of self employment as
an accommodation.
Dean Askin (03:55):
So how much has changed over the last 24 years
since that 2001 study, are thereunique challenges faced by
people who have a disability,who opt for self employment, and
what supports are out therecompared to supports for
traditional job seekers? Justsome of the questions we're
exploring with our two guests asthey share their self employment
(04:16):
journeys, experiences andperspectives with us in this
episode.
Jenny Hope (04:21):
Jeff Tiessen is a former three time medal win,
winning Paralympian, a 2010,achiever, inductee into the
Canadian disability Hall ofFame, a speaker and the founder
and executive producer ofdisability today Publishing
Group.
Dean Askin (04:36):
It's been the leading source of information
and content about Canada'sdisability community since 1990
Jeff joins us from Grimsby,Ontario, that's in the Greater
Toronto, Hamilton Area.
Jenny Hope (04:48):
Also joining us from out west in beautiful British
Columbia is Margaux Wosk.Margaux is a self taught artist
and designer with over 20 yearsof experience in resale and
marketing. She. Creates andsells her own accessible,
communicative and inclusive pinsin Etsy and Shopify online
shops.
Dean Askin (05:07):
And Jenny her creations are also offered by
over 40 independent retailersacross North America, by the
way. But there's more toMargaux's entrepreneurship. She
also founded the made byAutistics marketplace and the
Made by Autistics community onFacebook.
Jenny Hope (05:21):
And Dean Margaux is also a passionate, outspoken
disability advocate andactivist. Jeff theson and Margot
wask, you're both entrepreneurswho have lived experience with
disability. Thanks for coming onthe show to share your
perspectives on self employment.Welcome to You Can't Spell
Inclusion Without a D.
Margaux Wosk (05:40):
Thank you.
Jeff Tiessen (05:42):
Yeah, thank you, Jenny.
Jenny Hope (05:44):
We're glad you could join us today. So I wanted to
start off the questions withasking each of you why you chose
the self employment route. SoI'm going to start with you,
Jeff.
Jeff Tiessen (05:56):
I think it chose me. Actually, I grew up in rural
Ontario, and a lot of tomatoeswere grown where I grew up. And
as kids, I mean, as 910, yearolds, we were in the fields
picking tomatoes and well, theharder you worked, the more
tomatoes you picked, the moremoney you made. And that changed
(06:20):
for me. When I was 11, I had anelectrical injury at play and
lost both hands, so I quicklylost my proficiency in tomato
picking and needed to to findsomething else. So, like I say,
it kind of chose me, because Ihad to find other ways to put
(06:40):
myself through hockey school andbuy a new bicycle. So I think
the first avenue I took was apaper route and but what
happened is, every collectionsday, we call it where, you know,
people are paying and change. Itjust was not that convenient for
me. It's a double arm amputee, aprosthetic wearing amputee. So
(07:04):
my grandfather, who was myneighbor, would join me, and
he'd do the collections, and hegot kind of tired of that, and
said, Listen, I have a ridinglawnmower. Why don't you go out
and cut people's lawns? And so Icreated Jeff's lawn and garden
service was 12 or 13 and and sothe entrepreneurialism began.
Jenny Hope (07:23):
Wow, so many great things are created out of
necessity. And Marco, tell uswhy you chose the self, self
employment route.
Margaux Wosk (07:32):
So I also was gonna say that it chose me,
which is so funny. But I haveenjoyed working for myself
longer than I've known that Iwas autistic, which is kind of
funny. As a child, I Well, Iguess young adult, like between
12 and 14, I was starting to buyvintage clothing and selling it
(07:54):
on eBay. This was before therewere any dedicated platforms to
reselling vintage or usedclothing other than eBay, and
from there, it kind of expandedinto visual art and then
expanded into my currentbusiness. I just always knew
that it was something that Ilike to do. I have, I guess, a
(08:15):
sort of resilient, slightlyoppositional way of doing things
when it comes to being employedby somebody else, I think that's
just very autistic thing that Ibutt heads with management, not
because I'm doing anythingwrong, but because I tend to
take the initiative to really belike a go getter and a leader,
(08:37):
and so for me, being able tomake all The decisions when it
comes to my business, reallyjust ties into my strengths. And
I guess it always has been. SoeBay really set me up for
understanding, like,photography, comparison
shopping, like, in terms ofseeing what somebody else is
selling for. You know, similarprice, similar product, product
(08:59):
description, just everythingthat I needed, I taught myself,
and it's been just a joy.There's obviously a lot of
hardships included in that, butoverall, it's a very
exhilarating experience.
Jenny Hope (09:13):
Wow, that's tremendous and so empowering as
well. So you, you've told usalready what drew each of you to
the self employment route. Imean, Jeff, you went into media
and founded disability Todaymagazine, and that grew into
disability today PublishingGroup, and Margo, you design and
sell pens that communicate aboutdisability.
Dean Askin (09:35):
So I want to jump in here a little bit. And you've
sort of touched on this a littlebit already, but you know, I'm
wondering self employment hasits trials and tribulations and
its highs and lows. So how wouldyou describe your
entrepreneurial self employmentjourney? Jeff, do you want to
take shot at this one first?
Jeff Tiessen (09:54):
Margaux, and I might have the same answer.
Again. I mean Exactly.Accelerating and rewarding at
one end of the spectrum, andfrustrating and fatiguing at the
other end, and but, but that'swhat we sign up for, and the
rewards definitely outweigh thesome of the frustrations, for
(10:17):
sure. So yeah, I mean, adisability is a tough product to
sell, and that was one of thebig challenges for me. It always
seemed to be a I needed to beeducating about why someone
should buy an ad in thepublication before I could even
sell them that ad. So I waslucky to have sales skills as
(10:38):
well as communication skillsthat I learned in university and
was able to bring those twoskill sets together, kind of
like Margaux was was talkingabout in the skill sets that she
married to make it work for her.
Dean Askin (10:53):
Thanks. Jeff. Margaux, how would you describe
your journey?
Margaux Wosk (10:57):
Definitely, yeah. I mean, I've kind of come to
this realization that it's justan ongoing learning process. You
have to be open to learning. Butfor me, I don't learn from other
people. I learn from experience.I cannot sit in a classroom. I'm
a 11th grade dropout with a GEDin my late, mid to late 30s now,
(11:20):
and I just kind of, you know,every single day, I feel like
I'm learning something new, andyou have to kind of be open to
that, but you also really haveto be open to making lots of
mistakes. I don't think I'd bewhere I'm at without mistakes,
whether that's, you know, likeordering something where a
letter is missing or misordering a certain quantity of
(11:44):
something like things like that,or forgetting something when I
set up and I'm vending inperson, all these things I think
just drive me to be better atwhat I'm doing, but also
understand that we all makemistakes, and that's just
honestly part of the journey ofEntrepreneurship.
Dean Askin (12:01):
Jeff, you mentioned, a disability can be a hard thing
to sell, but from your ownexperiences, what are some of
the unique challenges forentrepreneurs who have a
disability compared to thegeneral person who's an who's an
entrepreneur, whoever wants tojump in.
Jeff Tiessen (12:18):
Margaux, did you want to start with this one?
Margaux Wosk (12:22):
Sure, I would just say that like for me, because
I'm autistic, a lot of thethings that make me disabled
would be attributed to mysensory input, so like
fluorescent lighting, strongsmells, interpersonal
communication, at times, there'sjust like, a plethora of things
(12:45):
that fall under, you know,autism or sensory processing
disorder. And I think for me, abenefit of being self employed
as an autistic person is beingable to control the sensory
input, which not a lot of peopleseem to consider, like we talk
about inclusive employment, andhow that's, you know, being
employed by somebody else, andhow accommodating they can be,
(13:07):
but how often are they going tochange the whole fluorescent
lighting system to somethingthat can be dimmable or make
sure that the employees aren'tlike, microwaving fish, for
instance, there's just A lot ofthings that people don't really
consider.
Dean Askin (13:22):
Jeff. What about you?
Jeff Tiessen (13:24):
Yeah, I think certainly commonalities with
Margot, but differences too, inthat with her disability being
non apparent or invisible, theword Margot prefers mine being
visible fell more quickly intoother people's worldviews. And
what I mean by that is ableism,myths and misconceptions. So
(13:48):
when I talked about disability,was hard to sell. It's hard to
sell. I just sell myself all thetime too, that I would have the
skill set, the capability, the,you know, whatever it takes to
get get those contracts. So,yeah, it's been a real sales
from from day one, I'd say. Sothose are some of the tougher
(14:12):
ones. You know diverse suppliersis there's diversity in supply
chains. Is becoming morewelcomed. But I mean, I started
this business 30 years ago, andit wasn't the case then it was
very difficult to shoulder inamongst able bodied, owned
(14:37):
businesses and suppliers. Andagain, that's those myths and
misconceptions that I had topush through.
Jenny Hope (14:46):
So I wanted to ask both of you, how would you
describe self employmentsupports for people who have a
disability in your respectiveparts of Canada and in general,
in this country overall, there'sa federal. Funded, administered
entrepreneurs with DisabilitiesProgram in Western Canada, for
example, but nothing like thateast of Manitoba. So I'll start
(15:09):
with you, Margo, since you'relocated in BC,
Margaux Wosk (15:12):
So I've accessed the entrepreneurs with
disability program, and itdidn't meet my needs at all.
Unfortunately, it's a lot ofkind of self guided videos, and
for me, that's just not how Ilearn. There's also no grants
available that I'm aware of. Sothat's a gigantic barrier,
(15:34):
because these organizations thatdo help with self employment
will be very happy to help youget a loan. But I don't really
understand why they would beputting people who might already
be at financial risk or on, youknow, receiving ministry
benefits to take on debt, whenwe reckon, we very regularly
(15:56):
see, you know, able bodiedholistic people who own
businesses who hire disabledpeople, and their business is
operating for profit, not notI'm not talking about
nonprofits, because there's alot of those that do amazing
things, but for profit. And thenI see them getting awards. I see
them getting grants from thegovernment. But when it comes to
disabled self employed peoplewho are entrepreneurs, we're
(16:19):
very much left out. So whilethese resources do exist,
they're just not meeting ourneeds. And it's also I'm finding
very hard to provide them anyfeedback, to let them know, like
we need a grant, and whetherit's a grant that is given as a
standalone or a grant that isgiven through like a guided
mentorship, which I think wouldbe absolutely ideal.
(16:41):
Unfortunately, these things justdo not exist. And I'm happy that
there's a program that exists,but just for me, it wasn't, it
wasn't the right fit.
Jeff Tiessen (16:52):
Yeah, again, similarly, I really haven't
tapped into any of thoseprograms, and really not aware
of many of them either. Youknow, when I started the company
with the name and the title,disability today publishing, I
was often asked, Why are youdoing this for profit? Well,
you're going to precludeyourself from a lot of grant
(17:12):
opportunities and and they wereright, for sure, but I really
felt I wanted to walk the talk,so to speak, that we can be
entrepreneurs, and why can't amagazine about disability be a
for profit enterprise? So thatwas sort of my philosophical
(17:33):
approach in the beginning.Fortunately, the media industry
in Canada does get some decentgrants support for for profit
organizations. But that hasnothing to do with disability.
That's that's more industryrelated. And lately, I, couple
years ago, I enrolled orsubscribed to an organization.
(17:56):
They're out of Toronto, but it'snational. It's called iwscc, the
inclusive workplace suppliersCouncil of Canada, if I have
that right, and what they do isbring self employed, disability
owned, veteran owned,marginalized group owned
companies, together withcorporations that are looking to
(18:21):
be more accessible in theirtheir supply chain. So there are
connections and referrals beingmade. So that's the real, the
first real fruitful sort ofexperience I've had with any
kind of support for a disabilityowned business.
Jenny Hope (18:39):
Oh, interesting. I'll look that up. Iwscc. I'm
curious to learn more aboutthat. Thank you. So what's being
done right with self employmentsupports for people who have a
disability and what needs to bedone better or changed? So I'll
start with you, Jeff, what?
Jeff Tiessen (18:57):
Again, not a lot of experience, but with those
those supports, but a lot of theprocurement processes with
corporations are veryinaccessible. And if we could
get some help in making thosemore accessible, I think they're
generally inaccessible to smallbusinesses. From a time resource
(19:19):
standpoint, they're veryinvolved to get into their, you
know, prospect or potentialsupplier list, but the forms and
on and on it goes, just not thatthat accessible. So support
there would, I think be reallybeneficial. I know Margo. Have
(19:43):
you experienced the same thingand inaccessibility with online
forms and such?
Margaux Wosk (19:50):
Yep, I and I was on IW SEC member for a year. I
didn't renew, but I saw a lot ofthose forms as well. And my.
Stock doesn't even fall into anyof those categories with those
specific numbers that you haveto put in. So I'm like, What am
I supposed to do? Because Irecognized that I was my
products are more, I guess,consumer like the end goal, not
(20:14):
so much like a supply thing, butI still think staff and
businesses would benefit from mywork. But these things are so
inaccessible, and in terms oflike, support being received, I
am not seeing very much, to behonest with you, like, certainly
these supports exist, butwhether or not they're, like,
tailored to what our needs are,is I find a very big divide, and
(20:37):
especially as somebody who doeshave an invisible disability a
lot of the time when we'retalking about like accessibility
and infrastructure, I feel likethere's a big focus on efforts
for increased mobility, orincreased accessibility in that
type of way, which I think isgreat. Obviously there's room
for improvement in that sectoras well. But when it comes to
(20:59):
things that are more likecognitive based, I guess I'm not
seeing as much because somebodymight look at me and and
oftentimes I get told that I'mnot disabled. So then there's
that disconnect that I might notneed support when I absolutely
do. So I'm thinking that a lotof what is transpiring is, you
(21:21):
know, like having meetings withdifferent organizations and
having the person be like, thishappened recently. I can't
discuss that with you. She saidto me, I was very emotional
because of that, because therewas a lot of things I did want
to talk about in terms of, like,what we're not getting, what
resources we need, and we needto have a very open dialog, but
we also have to have someempathy and compassion for like
(21:43):
disabled entrepreneurs, becauseit is such a rigid structure
when it comes to business that Ithink oftentimes people forget
that there are humans that existbehind the business, and it
becomes so heartless andsoulless many times when I'm
talking to people, that I thinkwe just what we really need to
see is we just really need tosee a compassionate, empathetic,
(22:04):
humanistic approach when itcomes to disabled entrepreneurs,
because this is it's difficult,and I want to be able to get to
a point where I'm 100% able tofully support myself. So we need
to understand that these thingsare not just for us, it's for
other people as well, and wewant to see systematic change as
a whole, so that we are justsupported on a grander scale.
Dean Askin (22:29):
Well, let's talk about that. You know,
inclusivity and empathy for aminute. I mean this being
National Disability EmploymentAwareness Month and all kinds of
campaigns going on across Canadaabout disability inclusive
employment. Now, usually theconversation is about
traditional employment, andthat's what employment service
(22:49):
providers focus on. You know,when they're supporting job
seekers who have a disability,but Margo, I know you say right
in your LinkedIn headline thatinclusive employment must
include self employment. Why doyou think self employment is
being left out or maybe nottalked about as much as it
should be?
Margaux Wosk (23:08):
I have a great answer for this. It's because it
does not benefit big business.Big business can utilize
disabled people to become moreprofitable, and there are
organizations that help them dothat. There are organizations
that showcase statistically whatthe benefit is to the employer,
who is oftentimes not disabled,what the benefits financially
(23:29):
are to them for hiringinclusively. And I'm not saying
that disabled people do notdeserve to have work where
they're accommodated. I justwish that there was some kind of
50 or like one, for one thingyou know, if they're receiving a
few million dollars from theprovincial government, which I
think they did here, thoseorganizations, why are we not
(23:50):
matching that dollar for dollarfor disabled entrepreneurs?
We're not. We're not thought ofas equal. I can't. I'm not even
invited to the same galas orrooms that these people who hire
disabled people are in, and Isee them getting awards and
accolades. And if we think aboutit, it is a legal like you have
to hire inclusively under, Ithink at least here the BC
(24:12):
Employment Act, or somethinglike that, you have to hire
inclusively. That is notsomething that is out of the
norm, like, that's their legalobligation. So the fact that
they're getting accolades forthat. When I, again, as a
disabled, openly autisticentrepreneur, can't even walk
into the same rooms. That's aproblem. And I've challenged a
(24:33):
lot of these organizations andreceived radio silence so they
don't even want to have theconversation of what disabled
what it looks like for disabledperson to have employment,
because, again, it does notfinancially benefit them. So I
think there's a gigantic dividethat I am somehow worth less
because I cannot be commodifiedby these companies, whereas I
(24:54):
believe that I should be able towork on my business, get support
and be able to not have toaccess ministry. Benefits so
that I am more financiallyindependent, and that should be
the goal for disabledentrepreneurs, that we support
people so that they're nothaving to utilize government
resources, which there's nothingwrong with, but there's
(25:15):
certainly a disconnect there.And again, I do say inclusive
employment is not trulyinclusive until self employment
is factored in. And, yeah, it'sjust not, unfortunately.
Dean Askin (25:26):
It sounds like, you know, there's a bit of an
analogy there, you know, I'mthinking of of, you know, that
song and that famous song wherethe line is, I feel like a number,
Margaux Wosk (25:34):
E100% 100 we are, we are more valuable to the
economy if we are a statisticand can bring in money for those
who, again, sometimes they'remaking billions of dollars
annually, cumulatively, fromthese organizations. And I would
love to see those numbers, but Iknow that's not going to happen,
but certainly, certainly we'rereduced to a number versus a person.
Dean Askin (25:58):
Jeff, I see you. You're nodding your head there,
and I know you've always beensort of self employed, but why
do you think self employmentnever really gets talked about
too much when it's when we'retalking about inclusive
employment?
Jeff Tiessen (26:12):
Well, and I say this tongue in cheek, leading
into in playing off what Marcosaid, I have had a real job, and
putting quotes around realbecause there's some sense of
value, like Margot said, andit's almost capitalistic. It
falls into that ableism and thevalue of our bodies and our
(26:33):
contribution and ourproductivity. And you know, I'm
often asked, Where do you work,or who do you work for? Well,
I'm self employed. Oh, you know,there's that, that stigma. Oh,
what do you do? Almost likethat's an excuse for not working
or something. So, yeah, that'sthat's been a challenge, and I
(26:55):
think it's exacerbated becauseof our disabilities. I mean,
many people you know withwithout disabilities have are
self employed, but I think thoseof us that have a disability, it
might be looked at a little bitdifferently as well. So yeah, I
can definitely relate to whatMargo is
Jenny Hope (27:13):
saying. I have a question primarily for Margot,
though I've really beenlistening to what you've been
talking about it, and thissounds like there's a lot of a
level playing field that needsto happen here, and numbers
always seem to impact that. Iwanted to ask you, you've been
talking a lot a little bit aboutadvocacy here, and what is it
(27:37):
like? What do you think it's isthe important part for you to
advocate for small businessowners and self employed
solopreneurs who have adisability.
Margaux Wosk (27:49):
I think the most important thing is that we
deserve like support. We deserverecognition. I know it's
multiple things, but you knowthe opportunities that I wanted
to see created, I tried tocreate. So for instance, I held
a market in two consecutiveyears called the we belong
(28:09):
market, which highlighteddisabled and neurodivergent
entrepreneurs and small businessowners. And the first year we
got a downtown VancouverBusiness Improvement Association
grant. So we were able to havethis lot, 19 area full of tents,
and everybody was able toparticipate for free the first
year. The second year, I had tocharge a very small amount, but
(28:31):
I tried to make it as barrierfree and as accessible as
possible, because I was just notseeing that and seeing the
overwhelming response of peoplethat are in that category. We
exist. We're out here, and weneed support. But there's also a
program provincially here inBritish Columbia, called the
self employment program. So whenyou're doing your monthly report
(28:51):
for disability, you can actuallywrite off your business expenses
so that that doesn't go towardsyour annual earning exemption
before you get cut off ofdisability, so that can help.
But that's the thing is that thegovernment here is fully aware
of how many self employed peopleare on disability accessing that
(29:11):
program. So it's not like theydon't have the numbers and the
statistics to recognize thatthis is a very underserved
demographic. But we just need,we need greater visibility. And
it's true that when people seethat you're self employed a lot
of the time, they're like, oh,because they don't necessarily
(29:32):
view it as a viable thing,because real jobs, right? Being
employed by somebody elsecertainly may look better on
paper, but for somebody likemyself, my qualifications, I'm a
retail employee, nobody's goingto look at me and even give me a
chance because I didn't go tobusiness school, but I have an
(29:53):
innate sense of business. Soagain, I've had to give myself
opportunities that nobody wouldgive me. That's kind of can be a
big barrier entry for people,because they may not know how to
get started.
Dean Askin (30:06):
Jeff and Margaux, you both got me thinking about
how, over the years in mycareer, there were times when I
was a freelancer for a littlewhile, but I kind of only
freelanced when I needed to,when I was between jobs. So if
somebody's trying to decidewhether they should go the self
employment route, or whetherthey're a job seeker who's
(30:28):
thinking, Maybe I should go fortraditional employment, what
would be your best advice basedon your own experiences? Jeff,
do you want to take a shot at that?
Jeff Tiessen (30:38):
Well, that's a tough one. You know, it's not
for everybody, that's for sure.And you know, not being able to
find traditional employmentisn't always the right reason to
be self employed either. Youreally need purpose and a plan
(31:01):
and contingency plans forsuccess and for struggle, both,
so a real assessment of whatthat service or product that you
want to provide needs to bedone, a lot of consultation. And
you know, I know, you know, asentrepreneurs, we have great
(31:24):
ideas. We love them. We justfall in love with them and and
sometimes they're not always thegreatest ideas. So, so getting
that feedback and listening toothers advice, I think, is, is
really important too. But youknow, I hear in Margo and I'm
the same. I mean, we weardisabilities on our sleeve.
We're proud of it. It's we'reit's our culture. And I think,
(31:49):
you know, framing that as avalue proposition and what we
bring to the table in terms ofunique traits and
characteristics and livedexperiences and and I think
generally, although disabilityis a very general term, and
there's there's so muchdiversity within that one word,
disability, you know, I thinkgenerally, we're pretty good
(32:13):
problem solvers too. We've hadto be, which is, would be a
tremendous asset for a companythat we work for, or a company
that we supply to as selfemployed. So yeah, purpose and a
plan is probably where I'd justkind of end that.
Dean Askin (32:34):
Margaux, what do you think?
Margaux Wosk (32:36):
I definitely agree for me, a very big thing was to
find a niche. I did a cohortwith an organization here called
curacoa, and I helpedindividuals kind of understand,
like conception all the waythrough execution of their
creative small business. Andsomething we really focused on
was niche. So find your niche.So I think the thing is, if you
(32:58):
can find a void in themarketplace for something or a
way to do something in adifferent way than it's been
done before. So for instance,the communication pins that I
had seen prior to the ones thatI designed were round buttons
with very bright, childlikecolors, and the fonts that they
used were very rounded. And Iunderstand that there's
(33:20):
certainly a market for that, butI didn't see anything that was
more professional looking andmodular. So that's kind of where
I was able to kind of figureout, okay, where, where does
what I want to do fit in witheverything else. And the
feedback has been amazing. So Idefinitely think if you can find
the niche or find a differentway of doing something, that's a
(33:44):
huge benefit to getting yourbusiness off the ground.
Jenny Hope (33:48):
For listeners. So we're looking at the screen, I
can see all of everyone who's inthis podcast today. I see
Margot's workspace behind her.I'm following you on Instagram,
Margo, and I see you're quitebusy, and you were posting there
the other day about how you havelimited space for some demands
(34:08):
that your customers have. Isthat the limit of your space
that you have there behind you.
Margaux Wosk (34:15):
Essentially, there is a shelf to my right that is
full of pins, and then I havetwo shelves behind me that are
also full of pins. So if I wantto expand, it'll certainly be a
bit of moving stuff around. Butyeah, this I have my own office,
and I'm very grateful for that,but I'm constantly, like, always
(34:35):
shifting stuff around, trying tofind room, and that's another
thing that would be so nice. Thegovernment tends to subsidize
employees that are disabled fordifferent businesses. I would
love to subsidize some help, andI would also love to subsidize
some space. Would be amazing, orto be able to write off my space
(34:57):
in a larger way, because I thinkI. Write off some of my space on
my taxes, but I don't know thatI can write off my space for my
disability that I receivemonthly. So there's certainly
some infrastructure things thatneed to change, but yeah, I do
not have enough room. Thanks.
Jenny Hope (35:17):
What's the most important message you want
people listening to thisconversation right now? What?
What is the most importantmessage you want people to take
away? Let's start with you Jeff.
Jeff Tiessen (35:31):
For me, I begin this entrepreneurial journey
with the magazine itself with abit of arrogance, admittedly.
And what I mean by that is Ijust didn't. I thought I knew
what I really didn't. And yeah,there was a gap, a need, that
niche that Margo talked aboutfor a publication about
(35:55):
disability in in Canada at thetime, and so I filled it. But
it's not like, what's the movieField of Dreams where build it.
And I think they say they willcome, He will come. Yeah, that
that wasn't the case. I builtit, and it was a struggle
(36:15):
selling it. So what I havelearned over the years is the
marketing and the networking andthe connections and the building
email lists and things that arevery you know, the minutia of
building a business, the real,boring, tedious stuff is what
(36:36):
needs to be done for For the topropel your dream and and be
successful. So, yeah, in a, Iguess, sort of an overarching
way, it's not just about, youknow, having an idea. It's how
to float that boat, sail that boat.
Jenny Hope (36:55):
Margaux, you've, you've touched a lot on what the
potentials are, what what youfeel would support you best and
and other solopreneurs. So Iwanted to ask you, what would
you like to see happen with selfemployment support, supports for
people who have a disability inthe next, let's say, five or 10 years?
Margaux Wosk (37:16):
Well, there's a lot of things. I do want to
mention, though, that there is aresearcher named Jennifer Fane,
F, A, N, E, who has beenresearching what it's like for
neurodivergent entrepreneurs. SoI have spoken to her, and so we
are going to get some data verysoon, which is fantastic. I'd
(37:39):
love to see more of that. Iwould love to see more research,
but I'd also love to see theorganizations that are
interested in self employment,or are, you know, helping people
get employed, try to fight forsome funding when it comes to
self employment. Or further,talk to us, you know, consult
(38:00):
with us, and something that Jeffwas saying earlier is that he's
for profit, and I want people tounderstand that our
contributions as disabled peopleshould we should be compensated
for them, and that we shouldn'tbe working for free. I see that
happen far too often, or we'renot properly credited for our
(38:22):
contributions to differentprojects. So as a whole, I would
just love to see more respectfor us, and the resources
increase, but the resources thatare available increase with us
in mind, because so often theseprojects move forward and
they're not even consulting withthe demographic that they're
aiming to serve.
Jeff Tiessen (38:42):
Yeah, good, good point. Margaux, I've fallen into
that trap of undervaluing myselffinancially. I do a lot of
public speaking. And, you know,friends have said that doesn't
sound like very much, and then,well, that's, you know, more
than I'd make it a week. Butthey said, Yeah, but it's not
(39:03):
that hour or two hours thatyou're presenting, it's the
decades of experience thatyou're bringing to it. And
that's our currency, really.And, yeah, I value what we bring
to the table.
Dean Askin (39:17):
Yeah, that reminds me of that there was, I think, a
meme or something on my Facebookstream a while ago, and it's
about, I think it was like, youknow, there was a ship where the
engines weren't workingproperly, and, you know, the
engineer couldn't get it going.And he brought in a senior guy
(39:38):
and he, you know, he whacked itwith a hammer, and then charge
him about, you know, $250instead of 25 and the point was,
you're paying, you're paying forthe decades of experience, and
the guy knew exactly what to doto get the engine going again.
So, yeah, I hear you exactly.You know you've both built your
(40:00):
your businesses. I mean, do youconsider. Self successful or
deep down, you know, are each ofyou the kind of person who's
always striving to reach thatnext mile post? I mean, whoever
wants to jump in on this one first,
Jeff Tiessen (40:16):
Take it away. Margaux
Margaux Wosk (40:19):
Sure. Thanks. That's good. Thank you. Um, so
there's certainly a feeling ofsuccess, but there's also the
imposter syndrome that goesalong with it, because sometimes
I'm like, I could be doingbetter. I could be doing I could
be expanding my stock faster.But you know, when you're kind
of self guided, you have tofigure out what, what makes
(40:42):
sense for your budget and stufflike that. I am very close to
15,000 sales on my Etsy store.So that is going to be a next
milestone. And then anothermilestone is that today, which
we'll just say in the past,recently, it was announced that
I am a recipient of the BCAchievement Award, the BC
community Achievement Award foremerging leaders. So getting my
(41:05):
first award is just reallyexciting, and I'm hoping that as
I continue on this journey, youknow, understanding that my
business is mixed in very muchwith my activism and advocacy,
my milestones, while they'revery important to me, it's the
change that I want to see forother people that would be the
biggest like milestone of all.
Dean Askin (41:28):
Jeff, what about you?
Jeff Tiessen (41:30):
Yeah, really good point and how Margo ended that
I've always talked about, youknow, I want to do good. That's
what disability today is allabout, helping, helping others
with with with disabilities andincreasing awareness, but I want
to do well too, as as anentrepreneur, so I look at the
metrics, the numbers ask if Iconsider it a success? Yeah, 33
(41:52):
years in the publishingbusiness, that's a success.
Think we've released over 300titles, 20 different books. I
think it's 3 million copies ofeverything that we've done that
are in print, but I'm alwaystrying to build a better
mousetrap. And you know,different projects come along
that are of interest to me. Wejust moved into e learning
(42:18):
courses and modules that we'recreating that was very new, so
it was a two year learning curvefor me. I mean, fortunately, the
company had the means to supportthat or endure that. It might be
a better word, and it's almostlike starting over with a new
medium like that. But I love itand seeing it grow and becoming
(42:44):
successful, that's a real thrillto me, and that's that success
too. And again, these are basedon disability, inclusion,
education, so there's the dogood part as well. Basically,
everything that I've done hasbeen related to disability and,
yeah, making for a better lifefor us, I guess, would be a way
(43:08):
to put it the best I can as one
Dean Askin (43:10):
And I guess the way the media landscape is changing
so rapidly today, you've got tobe in flux all the time to be
striving forward to reach thatnext milestone
Jeff Tiessen (43:22):
For sure, you know, and I don't want to give
covid any credit whatsoever. Butduring that time, it did give us
some time to think about what'snext for us, and we saw
opportunities like we have righthere today, digitally that
weren't as prevalent before, andit gave us an opportunity to
(43:43):
reach greater audiences and meetnew people, and we're trying to
utilize that the best we can.
Dean Askin (43:51):
Well, you've both provided some great insights.
You know, I'm wondering, beforewe wrap up this conversation, I
mean, have we covered all theessentials. Is there anything we
haven't talked about, about theself employment journey that you
think is important to mentionbefore we wrap things up?
Margaux Wosk (44:08):
I would want to say that when we have when we're
thinking about accessibility,oftentimes I feel like there's a
disconnect between accessibilityand disabled people striving for
accessibility. So for instance,my tools, things I design, are
completely focused onaccessibility, and yet, for some
(44:31):
reason, there's like, adisconnect. When people know
that I'm autistic and disabledwith the stuff that I do, some
people will be like, Well, thoseare just like, labels or
whatever, and I feel like weneed to understand that when
we're talking about business andwe're talking about
accessibility, the way thatpeople utilize tools or utilize,
you know, even the written word,we're all going to kind of
(44:53):
process things in our own way.But there's no one right or
wrong way of doing that. And ifsomebody. Doesn't see the value
in something, it probably justmeans that it's not for them.
And I think that a lot ofpeople, or at least I, would
benefit from people not comingafter me and criticizing my work
and maybe moving on and findinglike the next thing that works
(45:15):
for them. And so often, I feellike we are targets from the
public because we put ourselvesout there. And so if the goal is
really to help people, I thinkthere's also something to be
said for understanding that, youknow, again, not everything is
for every person, but there'sstill a benefit to other people
that people may not see. I haveto have a sign up at my booth
(45:36):
that essentially says, Why wouldanybody wear labels? And explain
it very kindly, because I seepeople walk by, and I hear them
and they're like, well, that'sridiculous, so I think there
needs to be a little bit moreunderstanding when it comes to
how people access tools orinformation, and that is
definitely left out of a lot ofconversations.
Dean Askin (45:58):
Jeff, any final thoughts, thank you, Margaux,
Jeff Tiessen (46:01):
That was good. You know, something we didn't,
haven't talked about isdisclosure. And again, as I
talked earlier about Margo and Iwe we wear where our
disabilities proudly. Noteverybody does. And in some
folks I know, even in applyingfor jobs, or if you have your
(46:22):
own business, Do you or don'tyou say that I, you know, I have
a disability. For me, it's anatural for me. There's, there's
no getting around it's, youknow, I'm a prosthetic wearing
arm amputee. But, yeah, it's avery personal thing. I know I
don't have an answer for it, butI certainly lean into, again,
(46:47):
that value proposition. It's,it's we bring, we have currency
in, in our experiences, ourlived experiences, our
authenticity, our creativity,our problem solving. And that
comes from having a disabilityand living life that way, so I
encourage it for disclosure, butI know for some it's it's a conundrum,
Dean Askin (47:13):
Yeah, because we talk about that a lot at ODEN
don't we, Jenny? Where peoplearen't going to disclose if they
don't feel safe and comfortablein the workplace environment
doing so,
Jenny Hope (47:26):
Yeah, it's really important for people to feel
that way in the workplaceculture. You know, when people
are able to see themselves in anexisting workplace culture where
people are fully supported, itreally opens up those doors for
them, I think, and makes themfeel a little bit more
comfortable about disclosingtheir disability. But it is
(47:48):
challenging and it's a personalchoice. This has been great.
I've loved chatting with you inthe midst of National Disability
Employment Awareness Month. Ofall times, it seemed like the
perfect time to have thisconversation. Jeff and Margo,
thanks so much again for comingon the show and for talking
about this with us. Who knows,maybe the conversation we've
(48:10):
just had will generate morebroader ongoing discussions
about disability and selfemployment as end Dean 2025.
Winds down.
Dean Askin (48:19):
Jeff and Margaux, thanks for me as well. You know,
so many great insights, and I'mlike Jenny, you know, hoping
this conversation makes a bit ofan impact and drives a broader
conversation out there about theself employment option for
people of a disability. Youknow, I'm thinking again about
that first ever national studyabout self employed people of a
disability, and that wementioned off the top of the
(48:42):
show, and how over 40% of peoplesaid they became self employed
because they needed to, notbecause they wanted to. And, you
know, frame of mind is such abig factor in all of this.
Jenny Hope (48:52):
There's definitely a lot to think about, and probably
a lot more we could talk abouton this self employment issue,
for sure, but we're at the endof this disability and self
employment journey conversation,and that's it for this episode
of You can't spell inclusionwithout a D. I'm Jenny, hope and
Dean. It's been fun guesthosting with you this season.
Dean Askin (49:12):
It has been fun. Jenny, you know, Are you up for
some more guest hosting again inseason seven, in 2026
Jenny Hope (49:20):
For sure before I go though, I wanted to ask our
guests how people can find them online.
Jeff Tiessen (49:26):
Go ahead, Margaux.
Margaux Wosk (49:28):
You can find me under retropheliac. So, r, e, t,
r, O, P, H, I, L, i, h, c, I'mon Facebook, tick, tock,
Instagram, and then on myLinkedIn. My name is Margo wask,
so m, A, R, G, A, u, x as an xray, and my last name is W, o,
(49:48):
s, k, oh, and my website, sorry.Are retrophiliac dot F, c.com,
and www, dot shop,retropheliac.com i.
Jeff Tiessen (50:00):
And for me, disability today, network.com
the email, it's simply Jeff, myfirst name at Disability today,
network.com and can find me onLinkedIn at Jeff teason, my last
name, T, as in Tom, I, E, S, S,E, N,
Dean Askin (50:19):
And we will definitely put the contact
information for both of you inthe show notes for this episode.
Well, it has been great, youknow. Well, we've still got two
episodes left in this season.I'm Dean Askin, thanks again for
listening wherever, whenever andon whatever podcast app you're
listening from, join us eachepisode as we have insightful
(50:41):
conversations like this selfemployment one with Jeff theson
and Margot wask and exploredisability inclusion in business
and in our communities from allthe angles you can't spell
inclusion without a. D isproduced in Toronto, Canada by
the Ontario DisabilityEmployment Network, our podcast
production team, executiveproducer and co host Amy widows.
(51:04):
Our producer is Sue Defoe,associate producer and co host
Dean Askin. Audio editing andproduction is by Dean Askin. Our
podcast theme is Last Summer byIksen. If you have feedback or
comments about an episode, emailus at info@odinnetwork.com
that's info at O, d, e, n, e, t,w, O, R, k.com, join us each
episode for insights from expertguests as we explore the power
(51:27):
of inclusion, the businessbenefits of inclusive hiring and
fostering an inclusive culture,and why disability is an
important part of the diversity,equity, inclusion and
accessibility conversation. Tuneinto you can't spell inclusion
without a dean podbean orwherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Dean, this is You Can't Spell Inclusion Without a
(00:04):
D, the podcast that explores thepower of inclusion in business,
in employment, in education andin our communities, and why
disability is an important partof the diversity, equity,
inclusion and accessibility.Conversation with your hosts,
Amy Widdows and Dean Askin.
(00:28):
Hello and thanks for joining us.Where does the time go? I mean,
where does the podcast seasongo? First, it's April, and
spring's finally in the air, andwe're just kicking off our 2025
season. Now suddenly it's themiddle of October. There's a
fall chill in the air, and oursixth season is starting to wind
down. This is episode 38 of YouCan't Spell Inclusion Without a
(00:51):
D. Hi there. I'm Dean Askin. AmyWiddows is away, so my colleague
Jenny Hope — she's the Directorof Development and Capacity
Building on the ODEN team, andshe's sitting in for Amy again
at the other mic. Hello there.Jenny, great to have you back. I
know you've always got a packedcalendar, so I'm glad you could
fit in this second guest cohosting gig. How are you doing?
Jenny Hope (01:15):
Hi, Dean. I'm doing great. You know, I could get
used to this. I had a lot offun, co hosting episode 36 and
just a reminder for everybodylistening. If you haven't caught
that episode yet, be sure to dothat. We had a great
conversation with Andrea D.Carter about psychological
safety and belonging inworkplaces.
Dean Askin (01:36):
Yeah, that was two episodes back, and jeez, just a
couple more episodes left,coming your way. Listeners, next
month. But wait a minute, I'mgetting ahead of myself here.
Let's talk about this episode.You know, October is always a
big month for us here on youcan't spell inclusion without a
D. That's because October isNational Disability Employment
Awareness Month, or NDEAM, asit's known for short,
Jenny Hope (02:00):
This month across Canada, end Dean campaigns are
focusing on raising awarenessabout disability inclusive
hiring, disability inclusionthroughout the employment cycle,
breaking down barriers toemployment for people who have a
disability, and creating adisability inclusive workplace
and culture.
Dean Askin (02:18):
That's right. Jenny, so every season, we like to tie
our October episode to NDEAM.This episode, we're delving into
an aspect of disability andemployment that seems to be not
talked about a whole lot in theconversation about disability
and employment. We're exploringthe self employment journey for
people who have a disability,
Jenny Hope (02:38):
And there isn't a lot of research or statistics
about it, small businesses arethe backbone of the economy in
both the US and Canada. Theymake up 97.9% of all businesses
in Canada and 99% in the US. Butthere aren't many statistics
about how many small to mediumbusinesses are owned by people
who have a disability, whetherthey're employer owned SMBs,
(03:02):
solopreneur ships or freelancebusinesses.
Dean Askin (03:05):
And Jenny there isn't a lot of data on why
people who have a disability gothe self employment route. Now,
the first ever national study onpeople who have a disability who
are self employed was done 24years ago. Why done way back in
2001 it was done in the US bythe National Institute on
(03:25):
Disability and Rehabilitationresearchers, Research and
Training Center on Ruralrehabilitation services. In
conjunction with the RuralInstitute on Disabilities, an
affiliate of Montana University,
Jenny Hope (03:40):
The study found over 40% of respondents said they
became entrepreneurs becausethey needed to create their own
job. A similar number ofrespondents said they needed the
flexible hours and workingconditions of self employment as
an accommodation.
Dean Askin (03:55):
So how much has changed over the last 24 years
since that 2001 study, are thereunique challenges faced by
people who have a disability,who opt for self employment, and
what supports are out therecompared to supports for
traditional job seekers? Justsome of the questions we're
exploring with our two guests asthey share their self employment
(04:16):
journeys, experiences andperspectives with us in this
episode.
Jenny Hope (04:21):
Jeff Tiessen is a former three time medal win,
winning Paralympian, a 2010,achiever, inductee into the
Canadian disability Hall ofFame, a speaker and the founder
and executive producer ofdisability today Publishing
Group.
Dean Askin (04:36):
It's been the leading source of information
and content about Canada'sdisability community since 1990
Jeff joins us from Grimsby,Ontario, that's in the Greater
Toronto, Hamilton Area.
Jenny Hope (04:48):
Also joining us from out west in beautiful British
Columbia is Margaux Wosk.Margaux is a self taught artist
and designer with over 20 yearsof experience in resale and
marketing. She. Creates andsells her own accessible,
communicative and inclusive pinsin Etsy and Shopify online
shops.
Dean Askin (05:07):
And Jenny her creations are also offered by
over 40 independent retailersacross North America, by the
way. But there's more toMargaux's entrepreneurship. She
also founded the made byAutistics marketplace and the
Made by Autistics community onFacebook.
Jenny Hope (05:21):
And Dean Margaux is also a passionate, outspoken
disability advocate andactivist. Jeff theson and Margot
wask, you're both entrepreneurswho have lived experience with
disability. Thanks for coming onthe show to share your
perspectives on self employment.Welcome to You Can't Spell
Inclusion Without a D.
Margaux Wosk (05:40):
Thank you.
Jeff Tiessen (05:42):
Yeah, thank you, Jenny.
Jenny Hope (05:44):
We're glad you could join us today. So I wanted to
start off the questions withasking each of you why you chose
the self employment route. SoI'm going to start with you,
Jeff.
Jeff Tiessen (05:56):
I think it chose me. Actually, I grew up in rural
Ontario, and a lot of tomatoeswere grown where I grew up. And
as kids, I mean, as 910, yearolds, we were in the fields
picking tomatoes and well, theharder you worked, the more
tomatoes you picked, the moremoney you made. And that changed
(06:20):
for me. When I was 11, I had anelectrical injury at play and
lost both hands, so I quicklylost my proficiency in tomato
picking and needed to to findsomething else. So, like I say,
it kind of chose me, because Ihad to find other ways to put
(06:40):
myself through hockey school andbuy a new bicycle. So I think
the first avenue I took was apaper route and but what
happened is, every collectionsday, we call it where, you know,
people are paying and change. Itjust was not that convenient for
me. It's a double arm amputee, aprosthetic wearing amputee. So
(07:04):
my grandfather, who was myneighbor, would join me, and
he'd do the collections, and hegot kind of tired of that, and
said, Listen, I have a ridinglawnmower. Why don't you go out
and cut people's lawns? And so Icreated Jeff's lawn and garden
service was 12 or 13 and and sothe entrepreneurialism began.
Jenny Hope (07:23):
Wow, so many great things are created out of
necessity. And Marco, tell uswhy you chose the self, self
employment route.
Margaux Wosk (07:32):
So I also was gonna say that it chose me,
which is so funny. But I haveenjoyed working for myself
longer than I've known that Iwas autistic, which is kind of
funny. As a child, I Well, Iguess young adult, like between
12 and 14, I was starting to buyvintage clothing and selling it
(07:54):
on eBay. This was before therewere any dedicated platforms to
reselling vintage or usedclothing other than eBay, and
from there, it kind of expandedinto visual art and then
expanded into my currentbusiness. I just always knew
that it was something that Ilike to do. I have, I guess, a
(08:15):
sort of resilient, slightlyoppositional way of doing things
when it comes to being employedby somebody else, I think that's
just very autistic thing that Ibutt heads with management, not
because I'm doing anythingwrong, but because I tend to
take the initiative to really belike a go getter and a leader,
(08:37):
and so for me, being able tomake all The decisions when it
comes to my business, reallyjust ties into my strengths. And
I guess it always has been. SoeBay really set me up for
understanding, like,photography, comparison
shopping, like, in terms ofseeing what somebody else is
selling for. You know, similarprice, similar product, product
(08:59):
description, just everythingthat I needed, I taught myself,
and it's been just a joy.There's obviously a lot of
hardships included in that, butoverall, it's a very
exhilarating experience.
Jenny Hope (09:13):
Wow, that's tremendous and so empowering as
well. So you, you've told usalready what drew each of you to
the self employment route. Imean, Jeff, you went into media
and founded disability Todaymagazine, and that grew into
disability today PublishingGroup, and Margo, you design and
sell pens that communicate aboutdisability.
Dean Askin (09:35):
So I want to jump in here a little bit. And you've
sort of touched on this a littlebit already, but you know, I'm
wondering self employment hasits trials and tribulations and
its highs and lows. So how wouldyou describe your
entrepreneurial self employmentjourney? Jeff, do you want to
take shot at this one first?
Jeff Tiessen (09:54):
Margaux, and I might have the same answer.
Again. I mean Exactly.Accelerating and rewarding at
one end of the spectrum, andfrustrating and fatiguing at the
other end, and but, but that'swhat we sign up for, and the
rewards definitely outweigh thesome of the frustrations, for
(10:17):
sure. So yeah, I mean, adisability is a tough product to
sell, and that was one of thebig challenges for me. It always
seemed to be a I needed to beeducating about why someone
should buy an ad in thepublication before I could even
sell them that ad. So I waslucky to have sales skills as
(10:38):
well as communication skillsthat I learned in university and
was able to bring those twoskill sets together, kind of
like Margaux was was talkingabout in the skill sets that she
married to make it work for her.
Dean Askin (10:53):
Thanks. Jeff. Margaux, how would you describe
your journey?
Margaux Wosk (10:57):
Definitely, yeah. I mean, I've kind of come to
this realization that it's justan ongoing learning process. You
have to be open to learning. Butfor me, I don't learn from other
people. I learn from experience.I cannot sit in a classroom. I'm
a 11th grade dropout with a GEDin my late, mid to late 30s now,
(11:20):
and I just kind of, you know,every single day, I feel like
I'm learning something new, andyou have to kind of be open to
that, but you also really haveto be open to making lots of
mistakes. I don't think I'd bewhere I'm at without mistakes,
whether that's, you know, likeordering something where a
letter is missing or misordering a certain quantity of
(11:44):
something like things like that,or forgetting something when I
set up and I'm vending inperson, all these things I think
just drive me to be better atwhat I'm doing, but also
understand that we all makemistakes, and that's just
honestly part of the journey ofEntrepreneurship.
Dean Askin (12:01):
Jeff, you mentioned, a disability can be a hard thing
to sell, but from your ownexperiences, what are some of
the unique challenges forentrepreneurs who have a
disability compared to thegeneral person who's an who's an
entrepreneur, whoever wants tojump in.
Jeff Tiessen (12:18):
Margaux, did you want to start with this one?
Margaux Wosk (12:22):
Sure, I would just say that like for me, because
I'm autistic, a lot of thethings that make me disabled
would be attributed to mysensory input, so like
fluorescent lighting, strongsmells, interpersonal
communication, at times, there'sjust like, a plethora of things
(12:45):
that fall under, you know,autism or sensory processing
disorder. And I think for me, abenefit of being self employed
as an autistic person is beingable to control the sensory
input, which not a lot of peopleseem to consider, like we talk
about inclusive employment, andhow that's, you know, being
employed by somebody else, andhow accommodating they can be,
(13:07):
but how often are they going tochange the whole fluorescent
lighting system to somethingthat can be dimmable or make
sure that the employees aren'tlike, microwaving fish, for
instance, there's just A lot ofthings that people don't really
consider.
Dean Askin (13:22):
Jeff. What about you?
Jeff Tiessen (13:24):
Yeah, I think certainly commonalities with
Margot, but differences too, inthat with her disability being
non apparent or invisible, theword Margot prefers mine being
visible fell more quickly intoother people's worldviews. And
what I mean by that is ableism,myths and misconceptions. So
(13:48):
when I talked about disability,was hard to sell. It's hard to
sell. I just sell myself all thetime too, that I would have the
skill set, the capability, the,you know, whatever it takes to
get get those contracts. So,yeah, it's been a real sales
from from day one, I'd say. Sothose are some of the tougher
(14:12):
ones. You know diverse suppliersis there's diversity in supply
chains. Is becoming morewelcomed. But I mean, I started
this business 30 years ago, andit wasn't the case then it was
very difficult to shoulder inamongst able bodied, owned
(14:37):
businesses and suppliers. Andagain, that's those myths and
misconceptions that I had topush through.
Jenny Hope (14:46):
So I wanted to ask both of you, how would you
describe self employmentsupports for people who have a
disability in your respectiveparts of Canada and in general,
in this country overall, there'sa federal. Funded, administered
entrepreneurs with DisabilitiesProgram in Western Canada, for
example, but nothing like thateast of Manitoba. So I'll start
(15:09):
with you, Margo, since you'relocated in BC,
Margaux Wosk (15:12):
So I've accessed the entrepreneurs with
disability program, and itdidn't meet my needs at all.
Unfortunately, it's a lot ofkind of self guided videos, and
for me, that's just not how Ilearn. There's also no grants
available that I'm aware of. Sothat's a gigantic barrier,
(15:34):
because these organizations thatdo help with self employment
will be very happy to help youget a loan. But I don't really
understand why they would beputting people who might already
be at financial risk or on, youknow, receiving ministry
benefits to take on debt, whenwe reckon, we very regularly
(15:56):
see, you know, able bodiedholistic people who own
businesses who hire disabledpeople, and their business is
operating for profit, not notI'm not talking about
nonprofits, because there's alot of those that do amazing
things, but for profit. And thenI see them getting awards. I see
them getting grants from thegovernment. But when it comes to
disabled self employed peoplewho are entrepreneurs, we're
(16:19):
very much left out. So whilethese resources do exist,
they're just not meeting ourneeds. And it's also I'm finding
very hard to provide them anyfeedback, to let them know, like
we need a grant, and whetherit's a grant that is given as a
standalone or a grant that isgiven through like a guided
mentorship, which I think wouldbe absolutely ideal.
(16:41):
Unfortunately, these things justdo not exist. And I'm happy that
there's a program that exists,but just for me, it wasn't, it
wasn't the right fit.
Jeff Tiessen (16:52):
Yeah, again, similarly, I really haven't
tapped into any of thoseprograms, and really not aware
of many of them either. Youknow, when I started the company
with the name and the title,disability today publishing, I
was often asked, Why are youdoing this for profit? Well,
you're going to precludeyourself from a lot of grant
(17:12):
opportunities and and they wereright, for sure, but I really
felt I wanted to walk the talk,so to speak, that we can be
entrepreneurs, and why can't amagazine about disability be a
for profit enterprise? So thatwas sort of my philosophical
(17:33):
approach in the beginning.Fortunately, the media industry
in Canada does get some decentgrants support for for profit
organizations. But that hasnothing to do with disability.
That's that's more industryrelated. And lately, I, couple
years ago, I enrolled orsubscribed to an organization.
(17:56):
They're out of Toronto, but it'snational. It's called iwscc, the
inclusive workplace suppliersCouncil of Canada, if I have
that right, and what they do isbring self employed, disability
owned, veteran owned,marginalized group owned
companies, together withcorporations that are looking to
(18:21):
be more accessible in theirtheir supply chain. So there are
connections and referrals beingmade. So that's the real, the
first real fruitful sort ofexperience I've had with any
kind of support for a disabilityowned business.
Jenny Hope (18:39):
Oh, interesting. I'll look that up. Iwscc. I'm
curious to learn more aboutthat. Thank you. So what's being
done right with self employmentsupports for people who have a
disability and what needs to bedone better or changed? So I'll
start with you, Jeff, what?
Jeff Tiessen (18:57):
Again, not a lot of experience, but with those
those supports, but a lot of theprocurement processes with
corporations are veryinaccessible. And if we could
get some help in making thosemore accessible, I think they're
generally inaccessible to smallbusinesses. From a time resource
(19:19):
standpoint, they're veryinvolved to get into their, you
know, prospect or potentialsupplier list, but the forms and
on and on it goes, just not thatthat accessible. So support
there would, I think be reallybeneficial. I know Margo. Have
(19:43):
you experienced the same thingand inaccessibility with online
forms and such?
Margaux Wosk (19:50):
Yep, I and I was on IW SEC member for a year. I
didn't renew, but I saw a lot ofthose forms as well. And my.
Stock doesn't even fall into anyof those categories with those
specific numbers that you haveto put in. So I'm like, What am
I supposed to do? Because Irecognized that I was my
products are more, I guess,consumer like the end goal, not
(20:14):
so much like a supply thing, butI still think staff and
businesses would benefit from mywork. But these things are so
inaccessible, and in terms oflike, support being received, I
am not seeing very much, to behonest with you, like, certainly
these supports exist, butwhether or not they're, like,
tailored to what our needs are,is I find a very big divide, and
(20:37):
especially as somebody who doeshave an invisible disability a
lot of the time when we'retalking about like accessibility
and infrastructure, I feel likethere's a big focus on efforts
for increased mobility, orincreased accessibility in that
type of way, which I think isgreat. Obviously there's room
for improvement in that sectoras well. But when it comes to
(20:59):
things that are more likecognitive based, I guess I'm not
seeing as much because somebodymight look at me and and
oftentimes I get told that I'mnot disabled. So then there's
that disconnect that I might notneed support when I absolutely
do. So I'm thinking that a lotof what is transpiring is, you
(21:21):
know, like having meetings withdifferent organizations and
having the person be like, thishappened recently. I can't
discuss that with you. She saidto me, I was very emotional
because of that, because therewas a lot of things I did want
to talk about in terms of, like,what we're not getting, what
resources we need, and we needto have a very open dialog, but
we also have to have someempathy and compassion for like
(21:43):
disabled entrepreneurs, becauseit is such a rigid structure
when it comes to business that Ithink oftentimes people forget
that there are humans that existbehind the business, and it
becomes so heartless andsoulless many times when I'm
talking to people, that I thinkwe just what we really need to
see is we just really need tosee a compassionate, empathetic,
(22:04):
humanistic approach when itcomes to disabled entrepreneurs,
because this is it's difficult,and I want to be able to get to
a point where I'm 100% able tofully support myself. So we need
to understand that these thingsare not just for us, it's for
other people as well, and wewant to see systematic change as
a whole, so that we are justsupported on a grander scale.
Dean Askin (22:29):
Well, let's talk about that. You know,
inclusivity and empathy for aminute. I mean this being
National Disability EmploymentAwareness Month and all kinds of
campaigns going on across Canadaabout disability inclusive
employment. Now, usually theconversation is about
traditional employment, andthat's what employment service
(22:49):
providers focus on. You know,when they're supporting job
seekers who have a disability,but Margo, I know you say right
in your LinkedIn headline thatinclusive employment must
include self employment. Why doyou think self employment is
being left out or maybe nottalked about as much as it
should be?
Margaux Wosk (23:08):
I have a great answer for this. It's because it
does not benefit big business.Big business can utilize
disabled people to become moreprofitable, and there are
organizations that help them dothat. There are organizations
that showcase statistically whatthe benefit is to the employer,
who is oftentimes not disabled,what the benefits financially
(23:29):
are to them for hiringinclusively. And I'm not saying
that disabled people do notdeserve to have work where
they're accommodated. I justwish that there was some kind of
50 or like one, for one thingyou know, if they're receiving a
few million dollars from theprovincial government, which I
think they did here, thoseorganizations, why are we not
(23:50):
matching that dollar for dollarfor disabled entrepreneurs?
We're not. We're not thought ofas equal. I can't. I'm not even
invited to the same galas orrooms that these people who hire
disabled people are in, and Isee them getting awards and
accolades. And if we think aboutit, it is a legal like you have
to hire inclusively under, Ithink at least here the BC
(24:12):
Employment Act, or somethinglike that, you have to hire
inclusively. That is notsomething that is out of the
norm, like, that's their legalobligation. So the fact that
they're getting accolades forthat. When I, again, as a
disabled, openly autisticentrepreneur, can't even walk
into the same rooms. That's aproblem. And I've challenged a
(24:33):
lot of these organizations andreceived radio silence so they
don't even want to have theconversation of what disabled
what it looks like for disabledperson to have employment,
because, again, it does notfinancially benefit them. So I
think there's a gigantic dividethat I am somehow worth less
because I cannot be commodifiedby these companies, whereas I
(24:54):
believe that I should be able towork on my business, get support
and be able to not have toaccess ministry. Benefits so
that I am more financiallyindependent, and that should be
the goal for disabledentrepreneurs, that we support
people so that they're nothaving to utilize government
resources, which there's nothingwrong with, but there's
(25:15):
certainly a disconnect there.And again, I do say inclusive
employment is not trulyinclusive until self employment
is factored in. And, yeah, it'sjust not, unfortunately.
Dean Askin (25:26):
It sounds like, you know, there's a bit of an
analogy there, you know, I'mthinking of of, you know, that
song and that famous song wherethe line is, I feel like a number,
Margaux Wosk (25:34):
E100% 100 we are, we are more valuable to the
economy if we are a statisticand can bring in money for those
who, again, sometimes they'remaking billions of dollars
annually, cumulatively, fromthese organizations. And I would
love to see those numbers, but Iknow that's not going to happen,
but certainly, certainly we'rereduced to a number versus a person.
Dean Askin (25:58):
Jeff, I see you. You're nodding your head there,
and I know you've always beensort of self employed, but why
do you think self employmentnever really gets talked about
too much when it's when we'retalking about inclusive
employment?
Jeff Tiessen (26:12):
Well, and I say this tongue in cheek, leading
into in playing off what Marcosaid, I have had a real job, and
putting quotes around realbecause there's some sense of
value, like Margot said, andit's almost capitalistic. It
falls into that ableism and thevalue of our bodies and our
(26:33):
contribution and ourproductivity. And you know, I'm
often asked, Where do you work,or who do you work for? Well,
I'm self employed. Oh, you know,there's that, that stigma. Oh,
what do you do? Almost likethat's an excuse for not working
or something. So, yeah, that'sthat's been a challenge, and I
(26:55):
think it's exacerbated becauseof our disabilities. I mean,
many people you know withwithout disabilities have are
self employed, but I think thoseof us that have a disability, it
might be looked at a little bitdifferently as well. So yeah, I
can definitely relate to whatMargo is
Jenny Hope (27:13):
saying. I have a question primarily for Margot,
though I've really beenlistening to what you've been
talking about it, and thissounds like there's a lot of a
level playing field that needsto happen here, and numbers
always seem to impact that. Iwanted to ask you, you've been
talking a lot a little bit aboutadvocacy here, and what is it
(27:37):
like? What do you think it's isthe important part for you to
advocate for small businessowners and self employed
solopreneurs who have adisability.
Margaux Wosk (27:49):
I think the most important thing is that we
deserve like support. We deserverecognition. I know it's
multiple things, but you knowthe opportunities that I wanted
to see created, I tried tocreate. So for instance, I held
a market in two consecutiveyears called the we belong
(28:09):
market, which highlighteddisabled and neurodivergent
entrepreneurs and small businessowners. And the first year we
got a downtown VancouverBusiness Improvement Association
grant. So we were able to havethis lot, 19 area full of tents,
and everybody was able toparticipate for free the first
year. The second year, I had tocharge a very small amount, but
(28:31):
I tried to make it as barrierfree and as accessible as
possible, because I was just notseeing that and seeing the
overwhelming response of peoplethat are in that category. We
exist. We're out here, and weneed support. But there's also a
program provincially here inBritish Columbia, called the
self employment program. So whenyou're doing your monthly report
(28:51):
for disability, you can actuallywrite off your business expenses
so that that doesn't go towardsyour annual earning exemption
before you get cut off ofdisability, so that can help.
But that's the thing is that thegovernment here is fully aware
of how many self employed peopleare on disability accessing that
(29:11):
program. So it's not like theydon't have the numbers and the
statistics to recognize thatthis is a very underserved
demographic. But we just need,we need greater visibility. And
it's true that when people seethat you're self employed a lot
of the time, they're like, oh,because they don't necessarily
(29:32):
view it as a viable thing,because real jobs, right? Being
employed by somebody elsecertainly may look better on
paper, but for somebody likemyself, my qualifications, I'm a
retail employee, nobody's goingto look at me and even give me a
chance because I didn't go tobusiness school, but I have an
(29:53):
innate sense of business. Soagain, I've had to give myself
opportunities that nobody wouldgive me. That's kind of can be a
big barrier entry for people,because they may not know how to
get started.
Dean Askin (30:06):
Jeff and Margaux, you both got me thinking about
how, over the years in mycareer, there were times when I
was a freelancer for a littlewhile, but I kind of only
freelanced when I needed to,when I was between jobs. So if
somebody's trying to decidewhether they should go the self
employment route, or whetherthey're a job seeker who's
(30:28):
thinking, Maybe I should go fortraditional employment, what
would be your best advice basedon your own experiences? Jeff,
do you want to take a shot at that?
Jeff Tiessen (30:38):
Well, that's a tough one. You know, it's not
for everybody, that's for sure.And you know, not being able to
find traditional employmentisn't always the right reason to
be self employed either. Youreally need purpose and a plan
(31:01):
and contingency plans forsuccess and for struggle, both,
so a real assessment of whatthat service or product that you
want to provide needs to bedone, a lot of consultation. And
you know, I know, you know, asentrepreneurs, we have great
(31:24):
ideas. We love them. We justfall in love with them and and
sometimes they're not always thegreatest ideas. So, so getting
that feedback and listening toothers advice, I think, is, is
really important too. But youknow, I hear in Margo and I'm
the same. I mean, we weardisabilities on our sleeve.
We're proud of it. It's we'reit's our culture. And I think,
(31:49):
you know, framing that as avalue proposition and what we
bring to the table in terms ofunique traits and
characteristics and livedexperiences and and I think
generally, although disabilityis a very general term, and
there's there's so muchdiversity within that one word,
disability, you know, I thinkgenerally, we're pretty good
(32:13):
problem solvers too. We've hadto be, which is, would be a
tremendous asset for a companythat we work for, or a company
that we supply to as selfemployed. So yeah, purpose and a
plan is probably where I'd justkind of end that.
Dean Askin (32:34):
Margaux, what do you think?
Margaux Wosk (32:36):
I definitely agree for me, a very big thing was to
find a niche. I did a cohortwith an organization here called
curacoa, and I helpedindividuals kind of understand,
like conception all the waythrough execution of their
creative small business. Andsomething we really focused on
was niche. So find your niche.So I think the thing is, if you
(32:58):
can find a void in themarketplace for something or a
way to do something in adifferent way than it's been
done before. So for instance,the communication pins that I
had seen prior to the ones thatI designed were round buttons
with very bright, childlikecolors, and the fonts that they
used were very rounded. And Iunderstand that there's
(33:20):
certainly a market for that, butI didn't see anything that was
more professional looking andmodular. So that's kind of where
I was able to kind of figureout, okay, where, where does
what I want to do fit in witheverything else. And the
feedback has been amazing. So Idefinitely think if you can find
the niche or find a differentway of doing something, that's a
(33:44):
huge benefit to getting yourbusiness off the ground.
Jenny Hope (33:48):
For listeners. So we're looking at the screen, I
can see all of everyone who's inthis podcast today. I see
Margot's workspace behind her.I'm following you on Instagram,
Margo, and I see you're quitebusy, and you were posting there
the other day about how you havelimited space for some demands
(34:08):
that your customers have. Isthat the limit of your space
that you have there behind you.
Margaux Wosk (34:15):
Essentially, there is a shelf to my right that is
full of pins, and then I havetwo shelves behind me that are
also full of pins. So if I wantto expand, it'll certainly be a
bit of moving stuff around. Butyeah, this I have my own office,
and I'm very grateful for that,but I'm constantly, like, always
(34:35):
shifting stuff around, trying tofind room, and that's another
thing that would be so nice. Thegovernment tends to subsidize
employees that are disabled fordifferent businesses. I would
love to subsidize some help, andI would also love to subsidize
some space. Would be amazing, orto be able to write off my space
(34:57):
in a larger way, because I thinkI. Write off some of my space on
my taxes, but I don't know thatI can write off my space for my
disability that I receivemonthly. So there's certainly
some infrastructure things thatneed to change, but yeah, I do
not have enough room. Thanks.
Jenny Hope (35:17):
What's the most important message you want
people listening to thisconversation right now? What?
What is the most importantmessage you want people to take
away? Let's start with you Jeff.
Jeff Tiessen (35:31):
For me, I begin this entrepreneurial journey
with the magazine itself with abit of arrogance, admittedly.
And what I mean by that is Ijust didn't. I thought I knew
what I really didn't. And yeah,there was a gap, a need, that
niche that Margo talked aboutfor a publication about
(35:55):
disability in in Canada at thetime, and so I filled it. But
it's not like, what's the movieField of Dreams where build it.
And I think they say they willcome, He will come. Yeah, that
that wasn't the case. I builtit, and it was a struggle
(36:15):
selling it. So what I havelearned over the years is the
marketing and the networking andthe connections and the building
email lists and things that arevery you know, the minutia of
building a business, the real,boring, tedious stuff is what
(36:36):
needs to be done for For the topropel your dream and and be
successful. So, yeah, in a, Iguess, sort of an overarching
way, it's not just about, youknow, having an idea. It's how
to float that boat, sail that boat.
Jenny Hope (36:55):
Margaux, you've, you've touched a lot on what the
potentials are, what what youfeel would support you best and
and other solopreneurs. So Iwanted to ask you, what would
you like to see happen with selfemployment support, supports for
people who have a disability inthe next, let's say, five or 10 years?
Margaux Wosk (37:16):
Well, there's a lot of things. I do want to
mention, though, that there is aresearcher named Jennifer Fane,
F, A, N, E, who has beenresearching what it's like for
neurodivergent entrepreneurs. SoI have spoken to her, and so we
are going to get some data verysoon, which is fantastic. I'd
(37:39):
love to see more of that. Iwould love to see more research,
but I'd also love to see theorganizations that are
interested in self employment,or are, you know, helping people
get employed, try to fight forsome funding when it comes to
self employment. Or further,talk to us, you know, consult
(38:00):
with us, and something that Jeffwas saying earlier is that he's
for profit, and I want people tounderstand that our
contributions as disabled peopleshould we should be compensated
for them, and that we shouldn'tbe working for free. I see that
happen far too often, or we'renot properly credited for our
(38:22):
contributions to differentprojects. So as a whole, I would
just love to see more respectfor us, and the resources
increase, but the resources thatare available increase with us
in mind, because so often theseprojects move forward and
they're not even consulting withthe demographic that they're
aiming to serve.
Jeff Tiessen (38:42):
Yeah, good, good point. Margaux, I've fallen into
that trap of undervaluing myselffinancially. I do a lot of
public speaking. And, you know,friends have said that doesn't
sound like very much, and then,well, that's, you know, more
than I'd make it a week. Butthey said, Yeah, but it's not
(39:03):
that hour or two hours thatyou're presenting, it's the
decades of experience thatyou're bringing to it. And
that's our currency, really.And, yeah, I value what we bring
to the table.
Dean Askin (39:17):
Yeah, that reminds me of that there was, I think, a
meme or something on my Facebookstream a while ago, and it's
about, I think it was like, youknow, there was a ship where the
engines weren't workingproperly, and, you know, the
engineer couldn't get it going.And he brought in a senior guy
(39:38):
and he, you know, he whacked itwith a hammer, and then charge
him about, you know, $250instead of 25 and the point was,
you're paying, you're paying forthe decades of experience, and
the guy knew exactly what to doto get the engine going again.
So, yeah, I hear you exactly.You know you've both built your
(40:00):
your businesses. I mean, do youconsider. Self successful or
deep down, you know, are each ofyou the kind of person who's
always striving to reach thatnext mile post? I mean, whoever
wants to jump in on this one first,
Jeff Tiessen (40:16):
Take it away. Margaux
Margaux Wosk (40:19):
Sure. Thanks. That's good. Thank you. Um, so
there's certainly a feeling ofsuccess, but there's also the
imposter syndrome that goesalong with it, because sometimes
I'm like, I could be doingbetter. I could be doing I could
be expanding my stock faster.But you know, when you're kind
of self guided, you have tofigure out what, what makes
(40:42):
sense for your budget and stufflike that. I am very close to
15,000 sales on my Etsy store.So that is going to be a next
milestone. And then anothermilestone is that today, which
we'll just say in the past,recently, it was announced that
I am a recipient of the BCAchievement Award, the BC
community Achievement Award foremerging leaders. So getting my
(41:05):
first award is just reallyexciting, and I'm hoping that as
I continue on this journey, youknow, understanding that my
business is mixed in very muchwith my activism and advocacy,
my milestones, while they'revery important to me, it's the
change that I want to see forother people that would be the
biggest like milestone of all.
Dean Askin (41:28):
Jeff, what about you?
Jeff Tiessen (41:30):
Yeah, really good point and how Margo ended that
I've always talked about, youknow, I want to do good. That's
what disability today is allabout, helping, helping others
with with with disabilities andincreasing awareness, but I want
to do well too, as as anentrepreneur, so I look at the
metrics, the numbers ask if Iconsider it a success? Yeah, 33
(41:52):
years in the publishingbusiness, that's a success.
Think we've released over 300titles, 20 different books. I
think it's 3 million copies ofeverything that we've done that
are in print, but I'm alwaystrying to build a better
mousetrap. And you know,different projects come along
that are of interest to me. Wejust moved into e learning
(42:18):
courses and modules that we'recreating that was very new, so
it was a two year learning curvefor me. I mean, fortunately, the
company had the means to supportthat or endure that. It might be
a better word, and it's almostlike starting over with a new
medium like that. But I love itand seeing it grow and becoming
(42:44):
successful, that's a real thrillto me, and that's that success
too. And again, these are basedon disability, inclusion,
education, so there's the dogood part as well. Basically,
everything that I've done hasbeen related to disability and,
yeah, making for a better lifefor us, I guess, would be a way
(43:08):
to put it the best I can as one
Dean Askin (43:10):
And I guess the way the media landscape is changing
so rapidly today, you've got tobe in flux all the time to be
striving forward to reach thatnext milestone
Jeff Tiessen (43:22):
For sure, you know, and I don't want to give
covid any credit whatsoever. Butduring that time, it did give us
some time to think about what'snext for us, and we saw
opportunities like we have righthere today, digitally that
weren't as prevalent before, andit gave us an opportunity to
(43:43):
reach greater audiences and meetnew people, and we're trying to
utilize that the best we can.
Dean Askin (43:51):
Well, you've both provided some great insights.
You know, I'm wondering, beforewe wrap up this conversation, I
mean, have we covered all theessentials. Is there anything we
haven't talked about, about theself employment journey that you
think is important to mentionbefore we wrap things up?
Margaux Wosk (44:08):
I would want to say that when we have when we're
thinking about accessibility,oftentimes I feel like there's a
disconnect between accessibilityand disabled people striving for
accessibility. So for instance,my tools, things I design, are
completely focused onaccessibility, and yet, for some
(44:31):
reason, there's like, adisconnect. When people know
that I'm autistic and disabledwith the stuff that I do, some
people will be like, Well, thoseare just like, labels or
whatever, and I feel like weneed to understand that when
we're talking about business andwe're talking about
accessibility, the way thatpeople utilize tools or utilize,
you know, even the written word,we're all going to kind of
(44:53):
process things in our own way.But there's no one right or
wrong way of doing that. And ifsomebody. Doesn't see the value
in something, it probably justmeans that it's not for them.
And I think that a lot ofpeople, or at least I, would
benefit from people not comingafter me and criticizing my work
and maybe moving on and findinglike the next thing that works
(45:15):
for them. And so often, I feellike we are targets from the
public because we put ourselvesout there. And so if the goal is
really to help people, I thinkthere's also something to be
said for understanding that, youknow, again, not everything is
for every person, but there'sstill a benefit to other people
that people may not see. I haveto have a sign up at my booth
(45:36):
that essentially says, Why wouldanybody wear labels? And explain
it very kindly, because I seepeople walk by, and I hear them
and they're like, well, that'sridiculous, so I think there
needs to be a little bit moreunderstanding when it comes to
how people access tools orinformation, and that is
definitely left out of a lot ofconversations.
Dean Askin (45:58):
Jeff, any final thoughts, thank you, Margaux,
Jeff Tiessen (46:01):
That was good. You know, something we didn't,
haven't talked about isdisclosure. And again, as I
talked earlier about Margo and Iwe we wear where our
disabilities proudly. Noteverybody does. And in some
folks I know, even in applyingfor jobs, or if you have your
(46:22):
own business, Do you or don'tyou say that I, you know, I have
a disability. For me, it's anatural for me. There's, there's
no getting around it's, youknow, I'm a prosthetic wearing
arm amputee. But, yeah, it's avery personal thing. I know I
don't have an answer for it, butI certainly lean into, again,
(46:47):
that value proposition. It's,it's we bring, we have currency
in, in our experiences, ourlived experiences, our
authenticity, our creativity,our problem solving. And that
comes from having a disabilityand living life that way, so I
encourage it for disclosure, butI know for some it's it's a conundrum,
Dean Askin (47:13):
Yeah, because we talk about that a lot at ODEN
don't we, Jenny? Where peoplearen't going to disclose if they
don't feel safe and comfortablein the workplace environment
doing so,
Jenny Hope (47:26):
Yeah, it's really important for people to feel
that way in the workplaceculture. You know, when people
are able to see themselves in anexisting workplace culture where
people are fully supported, itreally opens up those doors for
them, I think, and makes themfeel a little bit more
comfortable about disclosingtheir disability. But it is
(47:48):
challenging and it's a personalchoice. This has been great.
I've loved chatting with you inthe midst of National Disability
Employment Awareness Month. Ofall times, it seemed like the
perfect time to have thisconversation. Jeff and Margo,
thanks so much again for comingon the show and for talking
about this with us. Who knows,maybe the conversation we've
(48:10):
just had will generate morebroader ongoing discussions
about disability and selfemployment as end Dean 2025.
Winds down.
Dean Askin (48:19):
Jeff and Margaux, thanks for me as well. You know,
so many great insights, and I'mlike Jenny, you know, hoping
this conversation makes a bit ofan impact and drives a broader
conversation out there about theself employment option for
people of a disability. Youknow, I'm thinking again about
that first ever national studyabout self employed people of a
disability, and that wementioned off the top of the
(48:42):
show, and how over 40% of peoplesaid they became self employed
because they needed to, notbecause they wanted to. And, you
know, frame of mind is such abig factor in all of this.
Jenny Hope (48:52):
There's definitely a lot to think about, and probably
a lot more we could talk abouton this self employment issue,
for sure, but we're at the endof this disability and self
employment journey conversation,and that's it for this episode
of You can't spell inclusionwithout a D. I'm Jenny, hope and
Dean. It's been fun guesthosting with you this season.
Dean Askin (49:12):
It has been fun. Jenny, you know, Are you up for
some more guest hosting again inseason seven, in 2026
Jenny Hope (49:20):
For sure before I go though, I wanted to ask our
guests how people can find them online.
Jeff Tiessen (49:26):
Go ahead, Margaux.
Margaux Wosk (49:28):
You can find me under retropheliac. So, r, e, t,
r, O, P, H, I, L, i, h, c, I'mon Facebook, tick, tock,
Instagram, and then on myLinkedIn. My name is Margo wask,
so m, A, R, G, A, u, x as an xray, and my last name is W, o,
(49:48):
s, k, oh, and my website, sorry.Are retrophiliac dot F, c.com,
and www, dot shop,retropheliac.com i.
Jeff Tiessen (50:00):
And for me, disability today, network.com
the email, it's simply Jeff, myfirst name at Disability today,
network.com and can find me onLinkedIn at Jeff teason, my last
name, T, as in Tom, I, E, S, S,E, N,
Dean Askin (50:19):
And we will definitely put the contact
information for both of you inthe show notes for this episode.
Well, it has been great, youknow. Well, we've still got two
episodes left in this season.I'm Dean Askin, thanks again for
listening wherever, whenever andon whatever podcast app you're
listening from, join us eachepisode as we have insightful
(50:41):
conversations like this selfemployment one with Jeff theson
and Margot wask and exploredisability inclusion in business
and in our communities from allthe angles you can't spell
inclusion without a. D isproduced in Toronto, Canada by
the Ontario DisabilityEmployment Network, our podcast
production team, executiveproducer and co host Amy widows.
(51:04):
Our producer is Sue Defoe,associate producer and co host
Dean Askin. Audio editing andproduction is by Dean Askin. Our
podcast theme is Last Summer byIksen. If you have feedback or
comments about an episode, emailus at info@odinnetwork.com
that's info at O, d, e, n, e, t,w, O, R, k.com, join us each
episode for insights from expertguests as we explore the power
(51:27):
of inclusion, the businessbenefits of inclusive hiring and
fostering an inclusive culture,and why disability is an
important part of the diversity,equity, inclusion and
accessibility conversation. Tuneinto you can't spell inclusion
without a dean podbean orwherever you find your favorite podcasts.
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