Hour 2: History Of The White War Pt. 2

What it's like trying to cross a freezing river high up in the mountains. A million men for lines that did not move. The struggles for control of the high ground. The difficulty in getting people, weapons, and food up the mountains. The height and the temps are just a few of the dangers. The road of 52 tunnels. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is a Jesse Kelly Show. It is the Jesse
Kelly Show. Another hour of the Jesse Kelly Show. And
in lieu of talking about tariffs and the White House,
in fighting and everything else underneath the sun, instead we're
setting all that aside. It's time this hour to talk

(00:31):
Part two, maybe the final part. I don't know of
the worst battlefield conditions I've ever read about in the
history of the world. I'm not exaggerating, and it's fighting
that nobody knows about. Very few people do. The Italian Front.
It's known as the Italian Front of World War One.

(00:53):
Give you a thirty second recap of what you missed yesterday.
In case you're just now joining US. Germany in Austria Hungary.
I'm just gonna refer to them as Austria from now
on because I get annoyed having to say that whole name.
Germany and Austria. They're at war with Britain, with France,
with Russia. Italy's not sure which side they're gonna land on,

(01:14):
but they decide they really want those Alps on the
northern part of Italy, the Alps Austria currently has. They
declare for the Allies and they go after the Alps.
The Austrians are desperately fighting on two fronts already, so
they don't have the men or the resources to properly
defend this area. And they do the only thing they

(01:36):
could do. They retreat up into the mountains and they
say to the Italians, okay, come get us out of
the mountains. And these are mountains nine thousand feet thirteen
thousand feet. I'll tell you this what kind of conditions
we're discussing. I actually, in all my research dig into this,

(02:01):
I found a hut that is still there. It is
on a mountaintop at thirteen thousand feet. It's covered in snow.
The hut is fairly preserved. It was the Austrians. You
can't go in it because inside of it so much

(02:21):
moisture has seeped in. Inside of it is a gigantic
block of ice. They would put men up there, we'll
call it a dozen men. They would leave you up
there for three weeks at a time. The climbers who
were investigating this hut, when I looked at it they
had to repel, looked to be about fifty feet down

(02:45):
the cliff where they located. What the men were forced
to use as a latrine for three weeks. When's the
last time you had to go pee in the middle
of the night. Didn't enjoy it? Did you get out
from underneath those warm covers and walk to the bathroom? Yeah,

(03:06):
imagine that, little midnight John. We are discussing some of
the most extreme stuff. So Austria is desperate. Okay, now
we're picking up the story. You're caught up for the
most part. You missed a lot of background. You're gonna
have to go download yesterday's podcast. iHeart Spotify iTunes. Austria
is desperate. They cannot afford to lose on this front.

(03:29):
So they have other more important fronts, but they can't
afford to lose this one. What do you do? They
start grabbing everybody they can and sending them down to
the mountains. Austria is so desperate they're going to shooting
clubs and scarfing them up. And that's just as crazy

(03:49):
as it sounds. I'm talking the local club of forty
year old dudes. They meet on the weekend to go
shoot guns. Maybe they go pheasant. The Austrian government comes
in and says, hey, here's a uniform. We need you
to come fight Austria's doing everything they can to slow

(04:13):
the Italians down, things like blowing the bridges. And let's
discuss this because whenever you look at the Italian campaign,
what you'll see. And believe me, if you looked into
this last night at all, you already know what I'm
talking about. If you didn't, I'm gonna give it away.
You'll see. They keep fighting what are known as battles

(04:36):
of the Assanzo, the Battle of the Assanzo, the battle.
I can't even figure out how many battles there were.
One person said there were ten, another said there were seven.
That's because the battles tend to blend together. If there's
a battle one day and then not another battle three
days later, is that the same battle? Is that? Okay,
so you get it. But they kept fighting these battles
of the Asanzo. The Asonzo's a river. Not only is

(05:00):
it a river, it's a freezing river. Have you ever
been to the mountains. Everybody listened to me in Denver
right now in Montana, everybody knows what I'm talking about.
But that beautiful river, you see, it's freezing all the time.
We used to have in Bozeman, Montana. We would go
float the river, and because we were irresponsible and we

(05:24):
only had one car, we would drop ourselves off and
float down the river and then we'd go hitchhike our
way back up to the car. I know, it's amazing, Yes, Chris.
We would float a freezing river. It was frigid. You
didn't look I remember the first time I floated a
river when I wasn't in Montana. Me and some Marine

(05:45):
Corps buddies of mine. We were down in Phoenix. We
had a long weekend and so we wanted to do
a bunch of irresponsible things, as marines tend to do
when they're off. And there is something known as the
Salt River down there. We went floating the Salt River
and it was so foreign to me because everybody was
in the water. Everyone's kind of hanging out, hanging on

(06:08):
to the side of your inner tube. You didn't hang
on to the side of your inner tube when you
floated the Madison, not for very long because the water
was freezing cold. Well, these are the conditions we're dealing
with when Austria blows the bridges. How do you even
get across a river like this? Fight these battles when
you're being shot at from machine gun nests. How do

(06:30):
you cross a frigid river where your body will shut
down if you spend too much time inside of it.
We did a river crossing like this once. What wasn't
a crossing, It was just basic torture to teach us
how to deal with it. We did mountain warfare training
in the Marine Corps one time, and look, I know
they did it just because they thought it would be funny,

(06:51):
but they made us There was this It wasn't even
a river. It was a very big, very deep stream,
as in up to my neck deep. It was quite
a string. They had us lock arms with each other
and we had to go walk out into the middle
of it, up to our chest and just stand there.
You know, the temperature of this water, it was thirty

(07:15):
seven degrees. They had to stand there and I don't
remember the time. I don't want to give you a time,
but I would say five minutes maybe maybe maybe not
even that. By the time we got back to the shore,
everybody kind of had to just lay down when you
got out of the water, because you didn't lose feeling

(07:36):
in your fingers, you couldn't feel your body anymore. Have
you ever lost feeling in your body because it's so cold. Well,
that's the kind of These are the kind of battles
we're talking about here. Now, let's talk about who's doing
the charging on the Italian side. We already talked yesterday
about how poorly equipped and poorly trained and poorly led

(08:01):
the Italian army was. They were having a difficult time
beating up Ethiopia. They just couldn't. African countries couldn't hold
off the Italians. Now they're fighting against the Austrians, who
I realized they're not the Germans, right, the Germans were
the peak of this war. They weren't the Germans but
a very modern thing. The Italian army was completely lost.

(08:25):
Their officers were completely lost at how to even train
for something like this. They were still training as if
it was the year eighteen hundred instead of the year
nineteen fifteen. What they believed, what they're Italian, what the
Italian leadership believed. They believed that toughness was all the

(08:45):
men actually needed. So, look, toughness is great, you want
toughness in your troops. But they thought they were properly
training the troops when they would throw packs on them
and march them for twenty miles. Now, there may be
times when you have to throw on a pack in
march for twenty miles, But you know what it doesn't

(09:06):
do for you. It doesn't teach you how to survive
a machine gun nest. When you're charging it. You can
be the toughest thing in the world. That doesn't mean
anything when you're charging machine gun nests. The Italian Army
lost twenty thousand people the first month, and I brought

(09:32):
up these battles of the asanzo. Let me just give
away the game a little bit here. This whole affair
is so unbelievably heartbreaking because as I was trying to
figure out where all this was taking place and get
my bearings on where was where and who was where,

(09:54):
I came across this amazing map and it had the
Austrian it had the Italians, and it had this battle
and that battle on it. And on this map they
had a little key on the bottom of the map
like maps too, right, so this marking shows you this
is where a road is, and this map shows you
where this is. And on this map I saw right

(10:18):
away because of the key, I saw where the lines
were at the beginning of this whole affair. Okay, so
you're looking at where the battle lines were, but I
looked down at the key and I saw where the
lines were at the end of it all, and that
I couldn't seem to locate on the map where were
the lions at the end? You know why I couldn't
find them because they didn't move a million men plus

(10:45):
for nothing. Will continue in a moment. Hang on the
Jesse Kelly Show. It is the Jesse Kelly Show on
a wonderful, wonderful Tuesday, talking about World War One, which
is improving my mood immensely. We'll get back to more
politics next. However, we're discussing now kind of the beginning

(11:05):
of this whole Austria Italian dust up in World War One.
In case you're just now joining us. Now, for the
purpose of our next little talk here, I need you
to picture mountains. But what I'm about to say it
may it may be like something you know, or it

(11:27):
may sound different to you. I'm going to describe a
mountain range. And the reason I had to qualify it
that way is if you grew up in the mountains,
or you're aware of the mountains. This is going to
be the most obvious thing in the world to you.
If you didn't, maybe you're just from the south or
the east, or maybe you're listening in Honolulu right now.

(11:47):
I need to explain something, right, mountains. When you picture
a mountain, before you become familiar with mountains, you generally
picture Mount Fuji, Japan. You ever seen a picture of
Mount Fuji, Japan. I've actually been there. I said an
illegal fire there once, but that's another story. But you

(12:08):
picture when you're not familiar with mountains, you picture one
big mountain popping up. It's gotta watch your picture, right, Chris,
see Chris as a sudden It's That's exactly why I
wanted to have this talk because it's important. Chris doesn't
spend any time in the mountains, but mountain ranges are

(12:29):
an entirely different affair, and so I'm going to explain
it like this. I'm sorry for dumbing this down for
everyone aware of the mountains, but it's gonna be important
for you to understand it in this way. So picture
a piece of paper, just a white piece of paper,
you with me. To the untrained eye, a mountain would

(12:50):
be a Hershey's kiss that you drop in the middle
of it. Okay, so you have all this flat ground
and then brip, there's your mountain. You with me, all right,
Now here's what it actually is. One you need to
picture that. You have twenty different sizes of hershey kisses. Okay,

(13:14):
some are little minis, some are taller, some are fatter,
some are skinnier. But they're all different sizes. They're all
shaped like a Hershey's kiss, Okay, but they're all different sizes.
Now drop them all onto that piece of paper, and
some of them connect. Maybe a tiny one connects with

(13:35):
a medium one. Maybe a huge one connects with a
medium one. Maybe a tiny one connects with it. Maybe
three are connected together, maybe there's four. But there's peaks everywhere.
And this is so critical to understand what's taking place
in this battle, because what this is it is a
year's long struggle for the high ground in the most

(14:01):
extreme way possible. Austria they retreated up into the peaks
because they believed correctly, you control the.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Peaks, you control the valleys. If you control the peaks,
you control everything. You set up your artillery pieces up there,
you set up your sharpshooters up there. You dig in,
it'll be very, very difficult, as we will find out,
to get you out of there.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
That's one. Two you are able to observe everything, and
three you can fire at anything that is within range.
You have to have the mountain peaks. Only it's not
one peak. There are peaks everywhere. It's a mountain range.

(14:50):
They are stretched out, they are connected. There's a valley
by this one, a little ravine up this one. This
one has a sheer rock cliff. The other one has
more of a gradual slope. They are not some uniform,
one off thing. It is a mountain range. It is
a mess, a complete mess. Okay, Now the idea was,

(15:13):
as I said, you take the high ground, you keep
the high ground. So you have to get up to
not just a peak. You have to get up to
the tallest peak. Let's go back to our Hershe's kisses.
What if I take a mountain? What if I and
this happened many times, through blood, sweat and tears, I

(15:34):
fight my way up to the top of a mountain.
I managed to dislodge the Austrian troops from the top
of the mountain, and now my men hold the mountain. Nice,
We got it, guys, Except is that is that the
tallest mountain in the area. That's a really important question

(15:56):
because if it's not the tallest mountain in the area,
guess what the the tallest mountain in the area is
about to start doing to you. As you sit on
the mountain that is not the tallest mountain in the area.
You see, Yes, you fought hard, you lost a lot
of lives, you took the peak. But that mountain right there,
three miles away, they're looking down on you, and right

(16:19):
about now their artillery is going to start firing down
on you, and you will be leaving that mountain you
just took. Kind of brings it into perspective the kind
of nightmare we're dealing with here and the kind of
strategy you have to come up with. If you're an

(16:40):
overall commander, you have to figure out how to get
your men alive up into the mountains. You have to
figure out which mountain you need to assault first, you
have to figure out the direction you're going to attempt
to assault that mountain from. And oh, I've failed, dementia
and this it's very, very, very difficult for modern countries

(17:04):
to supply their troops on good terrain. Now go to
a brand new country like Italy, not at all modern
at the time, and put their troops up into the
cliffs and Austria, the same thing applies to them. How
are you going to feed them? How are you getting
the artillery pieces up the mountain? Oh, it gets so

(17:26):
much worse, so much worse. We will continue in a moment.
Maybe all this talk about climbing mountains has your knees aching.
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armies had access to relief factor. I bet they would
have killed to have some relief factor. Can you imagine

(17:50):
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(18:13):
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(18:38):
a Jesse Kelly Show. It is the Jesse Kelly Show
on a Tuesday. Member you can email the show Jesse
at Jesse Kellyshow dot com. Jesse at Jesse kellyshow dot com.
Back to our story about the Italian campaign in what
is known as the White War in the Alps of

(18:59):
Noise or they're in Italy Austria hungry versus Italy. So
let's discuss the logistical situation, because it is something amazing,
to be honest with you. The Austrians and the Italians,
they had to figure out how to get the men
up to the cliffs, and they had to figure out

(19:22):
how to feed the men, how to clothe the men,
how to get the men, the bombs, the bullets. Everything. Look,
we used to uh, we used to go on, well,
we called them humps, but I guess you'd know them
as forced marches all the time in the Marine Corps
and we would hump all of our gear near your

(19:43):
body armor and things like that. And there were times
even in training where they would give us, if not ammunition,
they would give us the weight of ammunition. So, for instance,
I was a mortarman and three point forty one mortarman.
All right, now, let's say we're about to do ten
miles a ten mile hump out into the field, right,

(20:07):
So I'm probably loading on sixty seventy pounds of gear.
Remember I have myself, but that doesn't count. But I
have a flak jacket, bulletproof vest. You would know it
as that's heavy. I have some webbing of you've seen

(20:29):
webbing people where that they put magazines and canteens. And
I'm trying to put this in language you would understand
that goes over my flack jacket. Just that, let's pause
right there. Just that alone, flak jacket webbing, that's probably
fifteen to twenty pounds at least bare minimum. Then I
have my pack. Of course, we're going to go out
to the field where I have to loot, shoot and

(20:51):
do whatever, probably going to stay out there. I have
all kinds of gear I have to keep inside of
my pack. My food food alone. I have my food.
I have to have something to to sleep. I have
to be able to sleep somewhere. What if the weather
gets cold, means I have to have a sleeping bag
of some kind. Okay, so you got it. My pack
has all kinds of weight in it. How But then

(21:12):
we also have your weapon. That's eight pounds roughly. Okay,
that's an eight pound weapon. How but you're in mortars. Congratulations,
here's a thirty pound base plate. Carry this, Attach that
to your pack. Now carry that. Okay, so already you're
doing the math in your head. Now, I'm a mortarman.

(21:32):
When I get to where we're going, let's call it combat.
But when I get to where we're going, I need
to have mortar rounds to shoot. Otherwise, what's the point
of even having the mortars up there? I need rounds.
And guess what, I don't need one or two. I'm
gonna need probably several rounds just to get on target,

(21:53):
just to adjust my guns to get on target. We're
gonna need you to throw a couples in a piece everybody.
In fact, they may even make the entire company put
a mortar round or two in their pack. Let's go
ahead and add another twenty pounds to everybody's pack and

(22:17):
that mortar shoot we're about to go do even with
everybody in the company loading out a couple rounds for me,
I got twenty minutes worth. Thirty minutes worth. Now that
was just me as a as a mortarman part of
an infantry company in the Marine Corps. Now what does

(22:39):
that look like when I have to get the men,
equipment and food. I need five thousand feet up that cliff,
and I need everything that goes with it because we're
fighting a war up there. Oh oh, and I forgot
this little tidbit. The weather. I know you probably already

(23:03):
figured this out, but the cold in these Alps one,
it was, of course unreasonably cold at that time, but
no matter what, twenty thirty below zero. This part of
World War One combines the worst parts of Chosen Reservoir

(23:26):
in Korea, which we've talked about, and the Western Front
of World War One. It combines them both that level
of cold, the frost bite. You know, men used to
smear fat all over their skin, otherwise they would get
frostbite all over their skin. Men routinely had hands, fingers, feet,

(23:48):
legs amputated because they would turn black. Men would just
simply go up on the mountains and freeze. They had
to mobilize the Italian civilian popular. We're not even talking
about the Austrians. The Italian civilian population. The women had
to be mobilized, as I guess you'd just call them

(24:08):
a team of seamstresses. They had to start sewing blankets
and clothing together. So the men they sent up to
the front came back with all their fingers and toes.
The conditions were so unspeakably awful out there. They started
investigating the bullet wounds. Italian troops would come back with

(24:32):
you know why, They would be looking for what were
known as scorch marks. You get a scorch mark when
the weapon is fired really really close to you. If
you ever look at a slow motion picture of a gun,
a slow motion picture, I guess all pictures are slow motion.
A slow motion video of a gun being fired, you

(24:54):
see those flames coming out the end can be hard
to see if you're watching it live. Well, well, come
out the end right, because there's an explosion in that barrel.
If you shoot yourself, there will generally be scorch marks
because you will be too close for yourself. They used
to examine the wounds of the Italian troops for scorch marks.

(25:18):
Because these conditions were so bad, the men were routinely
killing themselves or shooting themselves in the arm, leg, or
foot to get off of the frozen mountains. The Italians
executed over four thousand men for cowardice during this time.

(25:40):
And I'm not saying all those men were cowards. This
is what happens when you take normal boys of any nationality,
but in this case they were Italians eighteen nineteen twenty
years old. You take them and you throw them up
top into a living hell. Now, the frostbite does many

(26:03):
many things, the altitude does many many things. But all this,
all this meant you can't supply these guys. Regularly, men
didn't have enough water. Oftentimes the men would get a
leader of water for an entire day. Do you know

(26:26):
how fast your body would use up a leader of
water in these types of conditions. If you're just sitting
around being fat all day, your body's going to use
up more water than that. These men are thousands of
feet above sea level, oxygen deprived, and if you have
to walk fifty yards, you are going to walk up

(26:48):
elevation down elevation. This is not even taken into account
the combat aspect of it. Your body is eating up
calories and eating up water, and the men are darving.
In some cases they can't supply them at all, and
then men will go two three days with no food.

(27:13):
So what happened next was Look, I know, this is
a lot of ugly and there's still more ugly to come.
But what happened next is amazing. There are logistical things
that man is able to overcome that just dumbfound me.
And some of the things they did here are amazing.

(27:34):
Let's talk about the logistics of it. Then we'll get
back to politics, shall we. Before we get to that,
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(27:55):
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(28:16):
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(28:38):
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(29:01):
be back. Jesse Kelly returns next. It is the Jesse
Kelly Show on a Wonderful Tuesday. Don't forget. You can
email the show Jesse at Jesse kellyshow dot com. So
the Austrians are having a harder time than the Italians

(29:22):
actually at resupplying their men. The Austrians are in no
great shape. It's just the Austrians have the benefit of
having the mountaintops the Italians don't, and so they're working
on it, and what happens is they keep dying trying
to get supplies up there. It's a humongous problem when

(29:45):
you actually think about a mountain range and you think
about the fact the Austrians are looking down, and when
you think about the fact the Austrians and the Italians
both employed sharpshooters with scopes and everything else, and they
were there to kill everybody, and you can see everybody.
So what do you have to do? Well, you can try,
and they did this many times to resupply people at

(30:09):
night of course, then you can't be seen. But have
you ever been on a mountainside. I've been on many.
You are in a dangerous place in peacetime. You are
in a dangerous place, and if you step the wrong way,

(30:30):
that can be it for you. It really can be.
It doesn't even have to be a sheer rock cliff
going down. If it's too steep and something gives way
underneath your feet or you trip or something like that,
you are going to fall very fast. Even though you're
on the ground. You're not free falling. You're gonna fall

(30:52):
very very fast. You're gonna slam into things and you
are going to be broken. If not dead. You know
what it's like to travel at night in the middle
of the Alps. Hey, here's a fifty pound pack. It's
got ammo. The guys up there need have a nice walk.
It's midnight and you can't hardly pull out your flashlight, now,

(31:15):
can you, because then the other side sees you and
shoots you in the head. What do you do? You
have to figure out how to get your guys supplied.
So there is something I'll give you something if you're
if you're ever in the area, something I really, really
really want to do. The Italians came up with something
called the Road of fifty two tunnels. Okay, road of

(31:41):
fifty two tunnels. I'm gonna say it again, the Road
of fifty two tunnels. This way, you don't email me
asking me about it. You can go walk it to
this day. It's a few miles. I think it took
like ten months to build. The Italians started using train
They would lay train tracks winding up the side of

(32:03):
the mountain. They built the Road of fifty two tunnels,
They built other roads. They flat out started tunneling. And
that brings me to probably what's going to be the
final part today. The tunnels many of which are still
there because they were carved into the granite of the mountain.

(32:24):
Both sides figured out being exposed was death. Even if
the bullets didn't get you, if the bombs didn't get you,
if the avalanches didn't get you, if the rock slides
didn't get you, the temperatures alone probably would. You had

(32:46):
to come up with ways where men could get into
the mountain, into the countryside. And so they took caves
that were already there and expanded them, and they took
caves that weren't there, and they brought in all these engineers.
In fact, you go look up pictures of them. I
saw a bunch of them Italian engineers in the mountains

(33:09):
that were brought in to tunnel, and that's what they
were there for. And the Austrians did it too, And
these tunnels took many different forms for many different purposes.
Maybe you would have a tunnel that goes from underneath
this peak to underneath the other peak where your guys

(33:31):
hold it, because you want to be able to supply
them with food and water safely. Maybe that's a reason.
Maybe maybe it's not as much of a tunnel as
it is a man made cave. You see all kinds
of these where instead of it being this long tunnel,
picture it twenty feet deep. They'll simply find a way

(33:52):
to blast out or mine out a big a room
for lack of a better way to put it, a
room with an open side into the mountain, where you
will sleep for two weeks until you're relieved. You don't
leave the area because you're on the side of a
mountain and you had to use ropes and climbing equipment

(34:15):
to get into the area. When what it is the daytime,
you will spend your time at the opening observing. Maybe
you have a field telephone, maybe you're one of the sharpshooters,
and what you do is you sit there and you
simply kill every Austrian and or Italian you can find.

(34:36):
A room carved into the side of the mountain, but
they weren't all carved into the granite, you see. Because
we're dealing with essentially Antarctica with bombs, they made ice
caves where men slept in the ice was such a
solid block. They would tunnel through the ice and the

(34:59):
men would move to and fro inside of the ice
in the mountains and probably finish it up with this
little tidbit here today. Not all the caves were completely sturdy,

(35:19):
as you can imagine. You can only do what you
can do, and so when the artillery started dropping, and
it was always dropping, the men always had to make
a choice. You can stay in the cave with the
possibility the entrance will cave in and you will slowly

(35:42):
starve to death in the dark, or the cave will
flat out fall on you and you will lay there.
Hopefully you die right away, because if you don't, you'll
lay there broken under the rocks and snow until you
freeze to death or starved to death. Or if that's
too much of a fear, and it was too much

(36:03):
of a fear, just depends on what your fears are.
If that's too much, you're welcome to leave. And then
you will find the air is full of razor sharp
molten steel in the form of shrapnel flying everywhere to
cut you in two oh and by the way, you're
in the mountains and it's twenty below zero and you

(36:26):
just lost a finger yesterday. We will wrap up this
story tomorrow. We're going to get back to the politics. Today.
I'm going to talk about this internal fight in the
White House. I have a little bit of an issue
with Christy nome more, FBI, malfeasans, all kinds of things
still to get to. Let me talk to you about

(36:47):
preserving your memories. It's not something we think about a lot.
We look at our pictures that are on the wall,
that old family picture. We probably I'll bet you have
a box, don't you of your old family movies, old
VHS tapes, can quarter tapes, wedding album, baby album. We

(37:09):
don't think about the fact those things are fading, and
we don't think about fires, floods. We don't think about
it until it's too late. That's how it always works.
You think about your pictures when you're standing out in
front of your house when it's on fire. Why don't
we be proactive to preserve all those memories With Legacy Box,
Legacy Box will send you a box, you put all

(37:30):
those things in it, they'll digitize all of it for you,
and then they'll send you your box back of all
your stuff. Then your stuff is safe forever, fire, flood,
no matter what. Legacybox dot com slash Jesse Legacy Box
dot com slash Jesse, We'll be back