March 29, 2025 • 45 mins
President Trump recently released a bunch of information and files relating to the death of John F. Kennedy, begging the question, who really killed JFK? Jesse Kelly asks various different investigators with varying opinions in hopes that we can all come to a consensus.
Beam: Visit https://ShopBeam.com/JESSEKELLY and use code JESSEKELLY at checkout for 40% off
Pure Talk: Get an additional 50% off your first month at https://PureTalk.com/JESSETV
Follow The Jesse Kelly Show on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheJesseKellyShow
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Okay, I'm really looking forward to this show, and I'm
I'm debating on whether or not I consider this to
be a serious topic. Obviously, the assassination of JFK is
a very serious thing.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It is a.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Serious topic, but we're so far removed from it now
that discussing the circumstances around it, it doesn't feel as
raw or emotional as I guess used to back in
the day I wasn't alive. But I'm really looking forward
to I'm really interested in the different views people have
of the JFK assassination, what they think happened, why it happened.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We got a couple of guests on it.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It's gonna be a really, really cool show, and so
I thought, in fairness, I might as well just give
you my theory on it.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'll tell you my justification and.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Then I'll lay out my theory on it, and then
we'll move on to other and listen, I don't know,
you don't know. We all think we know. Everyone has
a theory. If you asked my own man, well before
he passed, if you asked my own man, he would
tell you till he was blue in the face.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
That LBJ killed JFK.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Maybe it did. My dad was right about everything. Maybe
so we probably didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I don't know. That's not my theory.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Here's my theory, okay, and I'll justify it after I
tell you my theory. My theory is the American mafia,
both Italian and Jewish.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
We'll get to that in a moment.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
The Italian mafia, the Jewish mafia in America, in conjunction
with partners in the Central Intelligence Agency, took out President
John F.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Kennedy. Now let me explain why.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Now that's not something you haven't ever heard before, but
allow me to give you my explanation. First, the background
on all this Cuba, The United States of America before cash,
the United States of America really controlled Cuba.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
We really kind of did.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
We controlled Cuba, and it was from my understanding, I've
never been an island paradise, a Caribbean island paradise, a
vacation mecca for Americans, a business mecca for American businesses.
We had corporations setting up shop there. Americans like you
me want to take the fam down somewhere nice for
(02:27):
a week, you go to Cuba.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
That was what it was. And because of their laws it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Became heaven for the mafia, the American mafia, the Taia mafia,
and Jewish mafia, and those are really one and the
same at this point in time. But just know for
the purposes of our conversation, several different American mafia families
existed then and exists now. And really the Jewish mafia,
the head of that back then was a man by
the name of may Or Lanski. Now what did they
(02:56):
do in Cuba, Well, gambling casinos. The second you get
people into a casino, that becomes like a magnet for
mafia type figures. The Traficante family, that's a mafia family
that ran Florida. The Marcelo family under Carlos Marcelo, that's
the mafia family that ran New Orleans. These names are
(03:17):
going to be incredibly important, So stay with me here.
Sam Giancana, who ran the outfit or the syndicate, the
Chicago mafia they did plug New York. There's a lot
of mafia connections. They're all involved in Cuba. They're making
a fortune in Cuba, a fortune before they were making
money on Vegas. They were making that money in Cuba.
Then Fidel Castro leads a revolution the Communist stick over Cuba.
(03:43):
The United States of America is upset for a variety
of reasons. One, we don't like communism. Two, we're losing
our business interests. We don't want a hostile Communist power
just off of our shore. We are angry and we
want to do something about it. Guess who's just as
angry as America was, or as the American government was.
(04:03):
The American mafia was Jewish and Italian quite upset because
one of the first things Castro did was kicked them
all out of the country. No more money, no more casino,
no more checks. Now, this is all documented. What I'm
saying now that none of this is theory. This is
all documented. So the American government wanted Castro debt tried
(04:24):
in several ways to kill Fidel Castro.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
They were struggling to do so.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Central Intelligence Agency at one point in time they reached
out to the American mafia because they thought the mafia
could help taking somebody out.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
But it gets more in depth.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You know about the Bay of Pigs, when we tried
to invade and take back Cuba with a bunch of
brave Cubans. What you may not know is many of
those brave Cubans were trained here on US soil. They
were trained by Central Intelligence Agency places like Florida and otherwise,
(05:02):
and they needed guns and who can move weaponry easily
inside the borders of the United States of America the
American Mafia. This part hasn't really been confirmed, but it's
believed that the American Mafia was helping run those guns
to the Cubans who would eventually die and be imprisoned
(05:24):
in the failed invasion of the Bay of Pigs. Okay,
so you got all that. Most of that is confirmed background.
We're not even in the Waco conspiracy theory land. And
then we get to the Bay of Pigs. People don't
like to be embarrassed. I don't like to be embarrassed.
You don't like to be embarrassed. Powerful men really do
not like to be embarrassed, and they will oftentimes hurt
(05:46):
people if they are.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
John F.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Kennedy did not appreciate the Bay of Pigs, and he
laid the blame squarely at the feet fairly or unfairly,
he laid the blame squarely at the feet of Central
Intelligence Agency.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Talk to about breaking up the Central Intelligence Agency. CIA.
Didn't want that now combine that with this John F. Kennedy.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
His dad had all kinds of mafia connections, bootlegging, prohibition,
His dad very powerful man at mafia connections. Reportedly he
leveraged those connections to help his son win the presidency
in states like Illinois. Back to that Sam Giancana Chicago
mob stuff. Now the mob they believed they helped John F.
(06:34):
Kennedy win the presidency.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
John F.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Kennedy won the presidency promptly made his brother Attorney general.
His brother, as Attorney General, went after the American mob.
Not only did he go after them, he called them
in publicly, made these secretive men publicly testify, and frankly
embarrassed him. I remember watching one of these things. I
forget who it was. He actually accused one of them off,
(07:00):
laughing like a little girl. So now you have the
CIA not that pleased with John F. Kennedy, the mob
not that pleased with John F.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Kennedy. John F. Kennedy takes a ride in a convertible
through Dallas. John F.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Kennedy is shot Lee Harvey Oswald. I don't deny that
at all. Whether there was a second shooter or a gunman,
I don't know. But what I do know is this,
Lee Harvey Oswald, the man who just assassinated the president
of the United States of America, was then paraded publicly
on camera.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Paraded.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
It's an odd move for such a security risk, don't
you think. Not only was he paraded on camera, he
was then shot on camera. You can go watch it
to this day by somebody named Jack Ruby. Seems like
a patriotic citizen just upset about his president. Of course,
Well that's interesting because Jack Ruby famously ran a Dallas
(07:56):
area strip club for the mob. Jack Ruby in his
youth used to go around and beat people up with
clubs and chains for none other than may Or Lansky.
Jack Ruby was a lifelong mobster, just happened to be
so filled with patriotic fervor that he took out Lee
(08:16):
Harvey oh's Wald before Lee Harvey oh's Wald could.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Testify to anything.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Now, I will put a final bew on my theory,
and then we'll move on and hear everyone else's theory.
I'll put a final bell on it with this. I
love American mafia stories like any red blooded American male.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I read them.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I watched the documentary's book after book after book I've read.
Now you read one book from one mobster, you're gonna
just anticipate there's a bunch of lies in there. These
are career liars, that's what career criminals are. But it
is remarkably consistent. Account after account after account after account
(08:55):
from Frank Shecheron's book I Heard You Paint Houses to
a Banano Bo to the.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Book after book after book after book.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Mafia guys from back in this era seemed to tell
the exact same tale, some version of it that I
just told you. We helped elect Kennedy, then he screwed
us over. We got to know the CIA really well.
Previously we decided we were going to take out the
(09:24):
American president. One liar, Okay, ten of them. It's probably
as many books as I've read talking about it, all
telling the same tale, probably.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Something to that. This is just my theory.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Now, a lot of that, the background stuff which I
told you is fact, But that's my theory. Will we
ever know, No, we will not ever know. Newly declassified
documents don't shed any light on any of that. Now
they kind of indicate maybe some of that might be true,
but we're never going to get confirmation of it. That's
half the point of taking out the patsy, isn't it.
All ties are severed. Maybe that made you uncomfortable. Maybe
(10:02):
I'm right.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Let's talk to someone else who has a theory, shall
we next. I love to sleep. I've always been this way.
I know it's some kind of weird sickness, but I've
never even been in a phase in.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
My life where I didn't love to sleep.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Even as you're a wild young man, eleven o'clock midnight
at the latest.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Eh, I gonna crash.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
As you get older, it gets harder, doesn't it. That's
where dream powder from Beam comes in. You see, dream
powder will have you sleeping like a baby, no matter
your age, whether you love it, whether you hate it,
whether you're naturally good at it or whether you're not.
It's natural sleep, not drug induced sleep. It's all natural
things like raychi and magnesium. It's a cup of hot chocolate.
(10:55):
It'll have you drifting off to sleep and sleeping like
a baby every single night. Go to Shopbeam dot com
slash Jesse Kelly and that gets you up to forty
percent off.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Just try one bag. You'll always have some my promise.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Shopbeam dot com slash Jesse Kelly.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
The JFK files.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
As promised, we were about to talk about them, but
I thought maybe it would be better if you heard
it from more of an expert on the subject than me.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Larry Hancock joins us. Now he's the author of the
book The Oswald Puzzle.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Okay, Larry, before we get into the files, what you
believe the truth to be and all that? What has
been the consensus behind the JFK assassination which still rattles
us to this day.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I think the consensus has certainly been that it was
some form of conspiracy. I think primarily it's leaning towards
people associated with this. There are other possibilities organized crime
in some fashion, Lyndon Baines Johnson in some fashion, but
it's it's in recent years it's more centered around the CIA,
(12:13):
in particular their Operations group, the group that was working
on anti castro activities. And that's okay, that's largely because
JFK had shut down so many of the anti castro activities.
He was taking it away from the CIA, giving it
the military. A lot did this satisfaction within the CIA
(12:35):
about JFK and and several of their officers really considered
them almost treasonous.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, help me understand that, particularly because just presented that
way on its face. Because he's shutting down your department
at CIA.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You may be angry about it.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
You may go home, get drunk, scream at your scream
at your wife, crying your cheerios.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
To take the leap to.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
That assassinate the president of the United States of America
is quite a leap.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That is a leap, and I think that's why it
needs to be qualified. Over time, people have painted with
real broad brushes like, oh, it was the CIA in general,
or it was Godfathers and the mafia in general, and
that's a mistake. In the CIA, there was a very
particular group of people that things were very personal too.
(13:28):
These were CIA officers and the anti Castro exiles that
they had been working with for three years from before
the Bay of Pigs, people that had been involved with
the Bay of Pigs. These are people who have been
trying to bring down the Castro regime and kill Castro.
And that group included Johnny ROSELDI, who was had contacts
(13:50):
with organized crime. But there was a very special group
of people who had been risking their lives literally for
three years to bring down Castro and the other And
in the fall of nineteen sixty three, the message came
down from Washington that JFK was actually beginning covert negotiations
(14:10):
with Videl Castro at his request, and those Castro had
literally floated the offer that he was fed up with Russians.
They demanded him. He wanted to get rid of them.
He was open to discussions of neutrality accommodation with the US.
He had reached out to JFK, and by that fall,
(14:33):
JFK was taking it seriously enough so that he had
detached State Department personnel and they were ready to go
to Cuba for direct talks with Castro. And you can
imagine when these people in Miami, who were trained military operatives,
who have been trying to unseat Castro, they already considered
(14:54):
JFK to have been betrayed them at the Bay of Pigs.
They considered that he had had turned against them with
the missile crisis. This is kind of the third strike.
So when they hear that everything they've been doing, the people,
the friends, they've lost, everything is about to go away
unless JFK goes away. That was the tipping point, very personal.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Okay, I'm sure we'll come back to that.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Let's talk about the JFK files, because now we have
I think it's sixty three thousand pages, so it's a
friggin lot. And unless you are a much faster reader
than I am, I doubt you've combed through every single document.
But I'm sure you've looked at it. What have you
seen anything that blew your skirt up?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I have looked at it, and I have some friends
who are looking at it all night. So basically, what
we've got to understand is what we've seen so far,
which is some sixty thousand pages are almost all re releases.
These are documents that already were at the National Archives.
Many of them have been really least three or four times.
(16:01):
I looked at documents last night that I've seen five
versions of before now, and they're simply being re released
with fewer redactions. In most cases, there are still some reactions.
Some documents are now totally unredacted. So that's good news
in an historical sense. It gives us some names that
(16:21):
we didn't have, some CIA identity, some sources, good good information,
and some good historical material like s Lessinger's advice to
JFK to literally take apart the CIA, and JFK was
considering that. But it's good historical information. But there's certainly
(16:42):
no smoking gun in regard to the assassination itself. And
as they say, it's almost all re releases. We may
get some new documents from the FBI. They say they
found twenty three hundred documents that they had not associated
with the JFK assassination before. We haven't seen those yet.
Those will be interesting, but some interesting things for me,
(17:07):
For example, having written the Oswald Puzzle, there's a lot
of speculation that Oswell went to Russia as a CIA asset.
They sponsored him. One of the documents I saw last
night was the CIA talking internal document talking about how
it didn't understand how Oswald had gotten too Russia through Helsinki,
how he'd gone there so quickly. They were concerned about
(17:31):
how he'd gone to Russia coming back with the Russian wife.
Certainly doesn't sound like they were behind is going or coming.
So that sort of information is helpful as well. But
that's not about the assassination. That's about Oswald.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Okay, So.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I guess something has me a little bit confused. I
just not that I thought there was going to be
some bombshell in this. But for sixty plus years, a
bunch of documents have been kept from the American publican
president after president after president, including Donald Trump himself, has.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Talked about releasing.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Them, and then someone's in their airs saying please don't,
please don't, and then we finally get them and it's
just not It's just not anything that blew me away.
So why is the secrecy? Why wasn't this out in
nineteen sixty four?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Well, I think that at least maybe we can explain.
It would be good to be able to explain something. Right,
the CIA in particular, not so much the FBI, but
the CIA always said it was withholding documents because of names,
names of people, identities of people, names of sources that
might you know, endanger people back then or might certainly
(18:44):
hurt their reputations. I looked at a document last night,
quite a lengthy document that listed the names of a
whole series of CIA media assets, okay, and that a
lot of that had been withheld. Now is that going
to be embarrassing to the families of people who said
that they were, you know, totally objective and open journalists
(19:07):
to see that they have been taking information from the
CIA for years and would be and the CIA had
file names for them and considered them assets that could
be embarrassing. I looked at other documents last night that
talked about sources, how the CIA was getting information from
the British, the Australians, how they were getting domestic information
(19:32):
and sharing it with the FBI. Those are all things
that certainly at that time could have been embarrassing for individuals,
but could have compromised programs. Another thing that we saw
was actually names of people and some of the CI operations,
names of people in some of these Cuban operations. We
(19:55):
knew about the operations before, we didn't know exactly who
was involved. Now we can see who was involved, what
their cryptonyms were really trace their activities. Might that shock
some of their relatives, some of their relatives who might
even still be in Cuba to know, you know that
their relatives have been actively operated. There are also documents
(20:17):
that show list of Castro supporters, Cuban intelligence personnel, and
we're seeing true names so to some extent that is
related to individuals and their roles, maybe to living relatives
That's the closest I can see to explain the reactions.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Up to date.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Okay, now let's talk about Lee Harvey Oswald, because you
wrote the book on it.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Who was this guy? Was he? Do you believe?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Was he being controlled by somebody? Look like you mentioned
in the beginning, everyone has a theory. If you asked
my old man, may God rest his soul. He's swore
to the to the day he died that Lyndon Johnson
killed JFK. If you ask me, I'd tell you I
think the mob worked with the CIA to kill JFK.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
But I don't know. I just know what I read.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
What do you think I can tell you more about Oswald?
One of the reasons I can tell you more about
Oswald is Oswald. He talked a lot. He did have friends,
Contrary to what you might be led to believe, he
had friends that he talked about politics and international relations,
even in the Marines.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
He wrote a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
In nineteen sixty three, he was writing a lot about
what he thought the world should be like. He was
very much in favor of economic justice, the availability of
medical care, racial justice. So we get a lot of
insight into what he said. He was interviewed on TV,
he was interviewed on radio. He wrote a lot, so
(21:52):
we have good insights with him, and in the book
we offer a very contrarian picture to what you get
in the Warrant Commission and to some JFK conspiracy. Basically,
the first two thirds of the book is what we
consider a solid biography as Oswald as an individual, you know,
(22:13):
just set aside speculation, this is his real history. The
last third of the book is what we see. It's
a scenario speculation on our part, but we think pretty
solid of how he was set up by people who
engaged with him in New Orleans that summer anti Castro
exiles who were representing themselves as Procastro, and essentially hooked
(22:37):
into a situation where he was essentially available to be
framed as part of the assassination pointing the Castro because
the people that carried out the assassination not only wanted
to kill JFK, they wanted to point it towards Castro,
and for the parties that were directly involved were told
(22:58):
that that would stimulate the US to attack Cuba and
eliminate Castro. Later on, I've talked to some people of
their families. They felt that they were misled in that part,
but that's another story. Oswald's a very unique individual, so
we think we can give a perspective that you didn't
get in the Warrant Commission, who had to pay him
(23:20):
as a loaner. They had to pay him as asocial,
violent radical, and that's not what you see in the
real Oswald. They needed to do that because they could
come up with no motive. Everybody they talked to about
he and JFK said yeah, he talked positively about JFK.
He said JFK was maybe the only president who could
(23:42):
deal with Khrushchev and reach some sort of detime and
avoid war. So the War Commission was really hard pressed
to present him with any kind of motive. So they
essentially had to adjust the picture of him as someone
who can be considered a lone nut, which he was neither.
(24:03):
He was not loan he was not a nut. His
IQ tested at one hundred and eighteen, very bright, and
he's one of the best spoken and actually, as marine
officers complained that he could talk geopolitics about as well
as they could and the Marines, and this is a
marine officer who graduated in political science from Georgetown.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Okay, so Jack Ruby, I mean, I can't let you
go without asking about Jack Ruby, because that's always the thing, right.
You have this Dallas area strip club owner who most people,
I mean, I guess a lot of people don't realize this.
At one point in time, he was an unfors or
a leg breaker from Mayer Lanski's Jewish mob. So we
had mafia ties, a tiny mob, Jewish mob all over
(24:50):
the place. He was got filled up with patriotic fervor
all of a sudden. But where do you explain Jack
Ruby to me?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I can do that, almost do that for change. Okay.
You mentioned Mayor Lansky. Jack Ruby was connected to Lanski,
to Lanski's casino activities in Cuba before the Castor Revolution.
He actually was a FBI criminal witness in gun running
(25:25):
to Cuba. Jack Ruby had a lot of Cuban connections,
but the most important was to a fellow named Johnny Rosselli.
Johnny Rosselli was basically a consultant. He was mentored by Lanski.
He had gone to Cuba to run Lanski's casinos and
straighten up things in Cuba. He was very important because
(25:47):
he was trusted by godfathers. He placed money for them,
he got talent for them, his business card, says strategist.
I got to love that Roselli had a direct connection
based in Cuba to Jack Ruby, and we can paid
a pretty concrete trail that actually Roselli was used as
(26:11):
a cutout. Roselli was part of this same team that
I talked about before that had been working to first
poison Castro then attack him with rifle teams. He'd been
in this same team that had been trying to kill
Castro and overthrower regime for some three years with the
(26:32):
CI officers that had been involved, and he was brought
into the plot because they were comfortable with him and
because they specifically could provide him a deniable connection into
Dallas to get a field guy on the ground to
new dirty cops who knew how to get information inside
(26:54):
Dallas about the motorcade route to could support this team
into And we pretty much have that laid out as
to how Roselle served as the cutout using Jack Ruby,
and how Jack Ruby was brought in as field support
to this team that went to Dallas for the assassination.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Totally fascinating. I can't wait to read the book. Thank
you so much, sir.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
It is the OS. Would go read the book the
os wal and puzzle. All right, I love my cell
phone company.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And I hate to sound like such a brutal cheapo,
but it's just the bill alone. Honestly, if it was
nothing else about pure Talk, if it was just my bill,
I would love it. We were paying a fortune at
T Mobile and we switched to Puretalk and our family
bill got cut in half. Average family saves a thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
A year when they switched to Puretalk. Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And it's for the same service. They're in the same
five G network. Is the big guys? What you keep
your phone? You keep your phone number. We're talking a
pain free, money saving switch to a phone company that
shares and promotes your values, cares for veterans, not black
lives matter. Go to pure Talk dot com slash Jesse
(28:26):
TV and make the switch. Pure Talk dot com slash JESSETV.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
We'll be back.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Well.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
The thing about JFK's death is assassinations still reverber rates,
but so many people will talk about how well the
secrets died that day. All the secrets died that day.
There's no new. There's nothing new we can ever find out.
But I guess that depends on who you talk to.
Joining me now, Damon West, author of the book Six
Dimes in a Nickel. It's going to talk about these things, Damon,
(29:04):
before we get into your JFK story.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Who are you, hey, man, Jesse, what's going on?
Speaker 5 (29:09):
Brother? Thanks for having me to brother.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
You know, people describe me as a keynote speaker, best
selling author, but really I'm a family man. I'm a
guy that's living on my life in recovery. Back in
two thousand and nine, a jury in Dallas sends me
to life in prison for engage joann as crime.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
I was the leader of a bunch of.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Other methadics breaking in the houses all over Dallas to
feed our meth addiction. It's a rico case and I
got sent this to sixty five years in prison, which
is six times.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
In a nickel, which is the name of the book.
That's what they call it, a prison slang, six times
a nickel. But it was in that time in prison
that I learned.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
About the story the message the Coffee Bean, and the
coffee Bean message says that in the pot of boiling
water called life.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
You get three.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
Choices, do you I a carrot that turns soft, an
egg that becomes hardened by the water, or a coffee
bean which changes the pot of boiling water into a
pot of coffee. And ever since that inmate named Mohammad
told me the story of the coffee bean, that's what
I did. I transform myself inside that pot of ble
and water. That's a maximum security level five person in
the state of Texas. And the transformation was so complete
(30:07):
seven years into my sentence, the parole board came to
visit me and they.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
Let me go.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Not exactly a free man, Jesse, because I'm on parole
until the year two thousand and seventy three.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
But in the past ten years since I've.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Been out, I've been able to accomplish a lot in
life by living out that coffee bean philosophy. I've become
a husband and stepfather. I've become one of the most
sought after speakers in America. But like I said, I
stay sober one day at a time with my program recovery.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
How about that? Good for you, my brother.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I love when people get out and make and turn
things around.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
It blesses me blesses me.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
To well, you know, Jesse, here's the thing people love.
What I found is I'm a storyteller. Right, People love storytellers.
And I think human beings have always learned from stories.
We've always either learned lessons and morals from stories. We
learned principles from stories. We've been entertained by stories for millennia.
Human beings that learned it the few the storytellers. And
that's really what I've become, Jesse. I've had this incredible
(31:01):
you know, I tell my wife every day.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
I can't believe this is my life.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
But in this life right now, I get to go
out and share these stories and these messages that I've
picked up along the way. And as a storyteller, I
know that people love certain stories and certain elements. Right, Americans,
we love underdog stories, Jesse.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
We love it.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
We love because when the underdog wins, we win. We
love stories that have sports in it. I've got that
in my story too. I was a Division one starting
quarterback at twenty years old at the University of North Texas.
But we really love true crime in prison stories, Jesse.
And that's what's going to dove tell us into this
conversation today is the true crime in prison aspect. Here's
the reality of life, and I go around speaking as
a speaker all the time. Most people will never have
(31:40):
a swat team take them down.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
I get that.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Most people will never have to live inside of a
maximum security level five prison.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
I get that too.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
But in my mind I understand that the swat teams
of life come for us in different ways.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Right a swat team of life.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
Could be a divorce, It could be a bankruptcy, It
can be a marriage fel and it could be a
job ge get lost.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
It could be something from one of.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Your kids or one of your pets, life altering events,
or when the swat team comes forwards. But when the
swat teams come, you have to ask yourself, what's the
opportunity to diversity here? Because I believe I know that
inside of every adverse, difficult situation in life, there's an
opportunity there for you to grow, an opportunity for you
become a better version of yourself. In fact, I believe
(32:21):
the best version of you is on the other side
of whatever adversity you face in life. But the catch, Jesse,
is that you have to go through that adversity to
meet the best version of you in prison. Like I said,
you know, most people will never go live inside of
a maxistruted prison. But I can tell you this, Jesse,
without a doubt, that I meet more people out here
in the free world who are locked up than I
ever did when I serve time in a real prison.
(32:42):
Because more people are in prison by their thoughts, by
their things, by their prejudices, than by steel bars and
barbar and concrete combined. And you can take that from
the guy that's spent almost ten years in the joint
or the professor who teaches about the joint.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
Because one of the things I've been able to.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Do, Jesse, since I got out of prison, I went
back to school. I got a master's degree in criminals.
I wanted people to take me more serious than just
some other ex con that walked out of prison. And
I became a criminal justice professor at the University of
Houston Downtown. Get this, Jesse, teaching a class called Prisons
in America. How about that? For flipping the script of
a little bit.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
Jesse, who's j T JT Goad? I figured we.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Would get to j T In's conversation, so you know,
when you go to prison, you take a lot of
people with the Jesse. You take your victims of the crimes,
you take your family members, you take your friends, you
take everybody believed, and you take the taxpayers with you
on a riot because they're the one's gonna fund it.
So you take a lot of people with him and
you go to prison. But you also meet a lot
of people inside of the prison. I met a lot
(33:41):
of different people inside there, But the most interesting person
I met in there was a guy named Jerry Thomas Gode.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
Went by the name of j T.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
JT was an old mobster from Dallas. He grew up
cutting his teeth in the Dallas mob in the early sixties.
By the time I saw him in prison, he was
an old man. He had given his life to Christ.
He was really he's really one of those people, one
of those rare people, I think Jesse that walked the talk.
You know, he didn't just talk about being a Christian.
He lived being a Christian, lived by the code of
forgiveness of you know, mercy and justice, and you know,
(34:13):
he was just a really good guy. When I met him.
JT had these interesting stories.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Jesse, I mean, he.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Had all kinds of really great stories about his day
growing up inn organized crime. He really took an interest
to me at first because I was an organized crime
guy out of Dallas, and.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
You know, and JT was joke and he told me, he.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Said that us organized crime guy's got to stick together,
which was just fine with me because that aligned me
with one of.
Speaker 5 (34:32):
The most respected in the joint.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Everybody respected JT go because JT had a lot of
street currency that he came in with. So as JT
and I got closer Jesse, he started telling me more
stories about his days growing up in the Dallas mob.
And you know, I'm doing the math and I'm putting
the time frame together, and so I'm like, hey, JT,
what do you know about the jfk assassination? He said,
(34:55):
you mean the JFK hit.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
So here we go. J T told me, without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
The stuff I'm gonna tell you now is quote from JT.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
J T told me, without a.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Doubt that the mob killed j F. Kennedy, and he
told me a story about why. But before I get
to the story that he told me about the mob
being the people behind it, let me tell you some
of the else. Some of the other stuff he told
me at granular level that was going on in the
city of Dallas at the time. JT said that they
had a lot of cops the take in Dallas. He said,
(35:28):
they ran around and did crime with impunity the mob did.
He told me a story about JD.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Jesse, do you remember JD.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
Tippett? I do, okay, So he told me a story
about JD. Tippet.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
J T told me that Tippett was one of the
most reliable guys the mob had they worked with in
Dallas Police department. He told me a story specifically, this
is before JFK get tipped. This is the early sixties.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
He said.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
He and his crew were hitting a four sham shoe warehouse.
Cop car rolls up, sirens are wailing. His guys split
their run for it, but JK doesn't run because he
recognizes the guy behind the wheel. So he goes up
to the window, taps on the window. It's JD.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
JT makes some small talk with Tippett, he said. Then
he asked Tippett what size shoe he wore.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Tippett told him.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
J T yelled to his guys, loaded up the car
with this size shoe. He said, we must have loaded
fifty bucks of shoes into his car, and J JD.
Tippet drove away that night, no sirens and no no
sirens and no lights going on on the way leaving.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
JT told me that he believed j. JD.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Tippett was sent to kill Olswald to tie up the
loose end and they would have known each other through
Jack Ruby because Jack Ruby was going to be the
connector with Oswald and with JD.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
So JD. Tippett he believed, was sent to kill Ollswald
after the president was shot. But obviously forty five minutes
after the president was shot, Lee Harvey Olswald gets the
jump on JD. Tippet and shoots JD.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
But like j T told me, he said, how do
you think JD. Tippett knew where to be by the
boarding house where Lee Harvey Olsweald was staying. So I
got into the talk about the JFK assassination and he said,
you mean the JFK hit obviously because he's talking about
the mob did it. And he told first question I
have was, well, you think Lee Harvey Olswold was only shooter.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
He goes, no, there were multiple.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Shooters and by his by his, by his estimation, he
felt like there were at least four shooters there.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
But he said, dam and I knew at least one
of the other shooters there that day.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
So the day before the JFK hit, he runs into
Charles Harrelson in a bar in Dallas. Now, Charles Harrelson
is an infamous hit man. Charles Harrison actually went to
prison and died in prison for assassinating the federal judge
in nineteen seventy nine. And in fact, JT told me
a story also about Charles Harrison about before that hit too.
(37:51):
But he's telling me about running into Charles Harrison at
a bar in Dallas the.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
Day before John F. Kennedy is shot.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
And he said he saw Charlie in the bar and
he asked Charlie, said, hey, Charlie, what are you doing
in town.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Charlie said, I'm here on business.
Speaker 4 (38:07):
JT said That's all I had to know, because Charlie's
business was killing people, so I understood what Charlie was
in town. J T also told me that a few
days before Kennedy was coming to town, his boss told
him get all the girls off the street. Now. JT's
job at the time he ran girls, guns and drugs
all over Dallas for the mob. So his boss is
telling him to get the girls off the street. Something
(38:28):
big is going down. JT even pushed back on him
a little bit. He said, man, you know, if we
get all the girls off the street, you know, you know,
something bad could happen to him if they go out
there and freelance on their own.
Speaker 5 (38:38):
Guys said, it doesn't matter, get them off the street.
Something big is going down.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
So in November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, JF. Kennedy
is shot and killed in Dallas, Texas. The story JT
told me next Jesse was so wild and I've never
heard it anywhere else. I asked j T to write
it down for me and and he did, but he
gave me one instruction with it. He said, you can't
share this story until I'm bad, damn. So after I'm dead,
(39:04):
you can share the story I'm telling you. JT died
on February twenty first, twenty twenty three. This book coming
out right now was the first opportunity to share this
letter that JT wrote me. And you know, honestly, Jesse,
I I didn't have any intention of coming out and
talk about this letter before the book comes out. It's
just the final chapter. The final chapter of the book
is called the bonus chapter. It's called JT's story. So
(39:26):
many people are fascinated with the character of JT. They
wanted more. He was actually a person that made an
appearance in my first book, The Change Agent, and people
wanted to know more about this guy. Where again, Jesse's storytellers,
we're fascinated by stories about true crime in prison. Who's
not fascinating America with mob stories. So the bonus chapter
at the end of Six Times in a Nickel is
(39:46):
about JT. And it has this letter that he wrote me.
So JT's telling me this is after the jfk assassination.
He's got the girls working the streets again, and he
gets a frantic call from one of his girls and
he goes and meets with her. She said, I got
a friend that's in this serious trouble. And this is
I'm paraphraser from the letter Jesse. So these are not
going to be exact quotes, but all this is coming
(40:06):
from JT. So JT talks to this girl, and she said, listen,
my friend is a burless dancer at Jack Ruby's club.
It's called the Carrotsel Club, famous burless club in Dallas.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
So she's one of the burlest queens for Ruby.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
And she was staying after tonight to clean out her
locker because she met an airline pilot and she was
going to go off and get married and leave the life.
But as she was getting ready to leave, she heard
two people screaming in and it was in Jack Ruby's office.
And Jack Ruby's office is at the end of the
hallway and the stairwell to get down is right past
(40:43):
his office, so she has to go buy this office.
But in this letter, JT tells the story that this
girl overheard a conversation and it's two men screaming.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
One of them is Jack Ruby.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
One of them is Frank Costello, the head of the
New York Mob New York and Chicago guy. So Ruby
is telling Costello, no, I'm not gonna do it, man,
go find someone else, and Costello is telling him your
goal and to kill.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Lee Harvey Allswald at the Dallas Police headquarters.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
You're going to do this for us, And she said,
Ruby was protesting saying why, I don't know why you
want me to do it, and Costello's telling him because
you're the only one that can basically get in there,
and we have someone on the inside waiting for you
and they know they're gonna let you in. You're gonna
go do this, and if you don't do it, Costello said,
we're going to kill that little dog here that we
need dog you like and if you know anything about
(41:29):
Jack Ruby had this, we need dog. I think her
name was Sasha.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
Yeah, SHACKI actually left the.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
Dog in the car when he killed All's Wald if
you read up on it. So Costello is telling you,
if you don't do this for us, we're gonna kill
your dog, then you don't want to know what we're
gonna do to you before we kill you.
Speaker 5 (41:43):
But you're going to kill Lee Harvey Olswald.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
You're going to do this now. And this girl realized
that she heard something she should not have heard, and
then JT's letter. She says she tried to get out
of there quietly, but a sound gave her away, and
now Ruby and Costello are chasing this girl down the stairs.
She runs outside of the car gar Cel Club and
waiting outside was a guy, a cab driver in the
cab reading the newspaper. She said, she jumped in the cab.
(42:06):
She screamed to the guy, go go go. He takes
off Costello and Ruby and all the guys are chasing
down the street. So this girl goes into hiding. JT's
girl is saying, listen, she wants to get out of here.
She wants to go to Waco. She's got a stepsister
in Waco that no one knows anything about. She just
wants out of this life. And JT is like, look,
(42:26):
I'm not gonna help her. The stuff that she heard
can get me killed. I don't want anything to do
with her. But she pleads with him, and JT's like,
all right, I'll help her.
Speaker 5 (42:33):
So he goes.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
First thing he says in the letter that he does,
he gets what a friend of it is that no
one in the mob knows. This friend's got a fast
car too. So he says, hey, look, let's let's take
your car. I need to bar your car.
Speaker 5 (42:45):
And he goes and he picts this girl up where
she's hiding and he gets her in the car. And
this girl wants to stop and.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Get a ring a diamond ring of hers from a
friend of hers that works at one of the bars
in Dallas, and JT is trying to tell this girl,
let's get you to Waco, let's get you out out
of here. Forget that ring. You can get another ring
some other time, but she's insistent to get this ring.
So JT takes her by that bar and he says, listen,
you've got thirty minutes, and if you're not out in
thirty minutes, then I'm out of here. Well, in the letter,
(43:13):
Jay talks about this stalling and he's taking a long time,
taking longer than he thought he should. And he said
in the letter, as soon as the girl comes out
of the bar, all these Dallas squad cars come pulling up,
and they actually cuff this girl and shove in the
back of an unmarked police car and they drive away,
and the JT's about half a block back, and so
he follows this caravan in police cars down to the
(43:35):
Dallas Police station on Harwood, one of the Dallas police precincts.
JT's pretty smoop by this, but he drives off and
a couple hours later in the letter, he says he
calls their mob warrior God, they got that handles all
their mob business. Calls him up and he says, hey, listen,
there was a girl that was helping the night she
got arrested. She got taken to the city jail on Harwood.
Can you can you call in there and see if
(43:56):
there's a way we can get her out here a bond,
JT said. The mob lawyer called him back and said,
forget about that girl. And JT was like, why you said,
Because the girl you're talking about hung herself tonight in
Dallas City jail with the nylons. Now, Jesse, if this
guy's telling the truth, and I don't think JT was
lying to me. JT was a pretty neat guy. But
(44:19):
j T was a good Christian guy at the time
I met him, and he has nothing to gain by
lying about this. This is such a cranular story, right,
Why would a person that's so eager to live her
life and go off and get married to this airline
pilot and start a new life over again. Why would
she hang herself in Dallas City jail. Obviously JT's implying
that someone else inside the jail help her hang herself, right, real?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
How about that damon that was unbelievably interesting. Thank you,
my friend. All Right, we'll be back. Interesting stuff, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Isn't it fun having these historical debates where you theorize
this and theorize that. Now, look, I realize still a
heavy moment to this day, all these years later.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
I wasn't even alive. Somebody murdered the American president.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
It's worthwhile to dig into who, especially if the who
is the American government itself. That opens up a whole
new can of worms, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Anyway?
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I hope you enjoyed it. I most definitely did. We'll
do it again.
Okay, I'm really looking forward to this show, and I'm
I'm debating on whether or not I consider this to
be a serious topic. Obviously, the assassination of JFK is
a very serious thing.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It is a.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Serious topic, but we're so far removed from it now
that discussing the circumstances around it, it doesn't feel as
raw or emotional as I guess used to back in
the day I wasn't alive. But I'm really looking forward
to I'm really interested in the different views people have
of the JFK assassination, what they think happened, why it happened.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We got a couple of guests on it.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It's gonna be a really, really cool show, and so
I thought, in fairness, I might as well just give
you my theory on it.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'll tell you my justification and.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Then I'll lay out my theory on it, and then
we'll move on to other and listen, I don't know,
you don't know. We all think we know. Everyone has
a theory. If you asked my own man, well before
he passed, if you asked my own man, he would
tell you till he was blue in the face.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
That LBJ killed JFK.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Maybe it did. My dad was right about everything. Maybe
so we probably didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I don't know. That's not my theory.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Here's my theory, okay, and I'll justify it after I
tell you my theory. My theory is the American mafia,
both Italian and Jewish.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
We'll get to that in a moment.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
The Italian mafia, the Jewish mafia in America, in conjunction
with partners in the Central Intelligence Agency, took out President
John F.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Kennedy. Now let me explain why.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Now that's not something you haven't ever heard before, but
allow me to give you my explanation. First, the background
on all this Cuba, The United States of America before cash,
the United States of America really controlled Cuba.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
We really kind of did.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
We controlled Cuba, and it was from my understanding, I've
never been an island paradise, a Caribbean island paradise, a
vacation mecca for Americans, a business mecca for American businesses.
We had corporations setting up shop there. Americans like you
me want to take the fam down somewhere nice for
(02:27):
a week, you go to Cuba.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
That was what it was. And because of their laws it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Became heaven for the mafia, the American mafia, the Taia mafia,
and Jewish mafia, and those are really one and the
same at this point in time. But just know for
the purposes of our conversation, several different American mafia families
existed then and exists now. And really the Jewish mafia,
the head of that back then was a man by
the name of may Or Lanski. Now what did they
(02:56):
do in Cuba, Well, gambling casinos. The second you get
people into a casino, that becomes like a magnet for
mafia type figures. The Traficante family, that's a mafia family
that ran Florida. The Marcelo family under Carlos Marcelo, that's
the mafia family that ran New Orleans. These names are
(03:17):
going to be incredibly important, So stay with me here.
Sam Giancana, who ran the outfit or the syndicate, the
Chicago mafia they did plug New York. There's a lot
of mafia connections. They're all involved in Cuba. They're making
a fortune in Cuba, a fortune before they were making
money on Vegas. They were making that money in Cuba.
Then Fidel Castro leads a revolution the Communist stick over Cuba.
(03:43):
The United States of America is upset for a variety
of reasons. One, we don't like communism. Two, we're losing
our business interests. We don't want a hostile Communist power
just off of our shore. We are angry and we
want to do something about it. Guess who's just as
angry as America was, or as the American government was.
(04:03):
The American mafia was Jewish and Italian quite upset because
one of the first things Castro did was kicked them
all out of the country. No more money, no more casino,
no more checks. Now, this is all documented. What I'm
saying now that none of this is theory. This is
all documented. So the American government wanted Castro debt tried
(04:24):
in several ways to kill Fidel Castro.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
They were struggling to do so.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Central Intelligence Agency at one point in time they reached
out to the American mafia because they thought the mafia
could help taking somebody out.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
But it gets more in depth.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You know about the Bay of Pigs, when we tried
to invade and take back Cuba with a bunch of
brave Cubans. What you may not know is many of
those brave Cubans were trained here on US soil. They
were trained by Central Intelligence Agency places like Florida and otherwise,
(05:02):
and they needed guns and who can move weaponry easily
inside the borders of the United States of America the
American Mafia. This part hasn't really been confirmed, but it's
believed that the American Mafia was helping run those guns
to the Cubans who would eventually die and be imprisoned
(05:24):
in the failed invasion of the Bay of Pigs. Okay,
so you got all that. Most of that is confirmed background.
We're not even in the Waco conspiracy theory land. And
then we get to the Bay of Pigs. People don't
like to be embarrassed. I don't like to be embarrassed.
You don't like to be embarrassed. Powerful men really do
not like to be embarrassed, and they will oftentimes hurt
(05:46):
people if they are.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
John F.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Kennedy did not appreciate the Bay of Pigs, and he
laid the blame squarely at the feet fairly or unfairly,
he laid the blame squarely at the feet of Central
Intelligence Agency.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Talk to about breaking up the Central Intelligence Agency. CIA.
Didn't want that now combine that with this John F. Kennedy.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
His dad had all kinds of mafia connections, bootlegging, prohibition,
His dad very powerful man at mafia connections. Reportedly he
leveraged those connections to help his son win the presidency
in states like Illinois. Back to that Sam Giancana Chicago
mob stuff. Now the mob they believed they helped John F.
(06:34):
Kennedy win the presidency.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
John F.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Kennedy won the presidency promptly made his brother Attorney general.
His brother, as Attorney General, went after the American mob.
Not only did he go after them, he called them
in publicly, made these secretive men publicly testify, and frankly
embarrassed him. I remember watching one of these things. I
forget who it was. He actually accused one of them off,
(07:00):
laughing like a little girl. So now you have the
CIA not that pleased with John F. Kennedy, the mob
not that pleased with John F.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Kennedy. John F. Kennedy takes a ride in a convertible
through Dallas. John F.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Kennedy is shot Lee Harvey Oswald. I don't deny that
at all. Whether there was a second shooter or a gunman,
I don't know. But what I do know is this,
Lee Harvey Oswald, the man who just assassinated the president
of the United States of America, was then paraded publicly
on camera.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Paraded.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
It's an odd move for such a security risk, don't
you think. Not only was he paraded on camera, he
was then shot on camera. You can go watch it
to this day by somebody named Jack Ruby. Seems like
a patriotic citizen just upset about his president. Of course,
Well that's interesting because Jack Ruby famously ran a Dallas
(07:56):
area strip club for the mob. Jack Ruby in his
youth used to go around and beat people up with
clubs and chains for none other than may Or Lansky.
Jack Ruby was a lifelong mobster, just happened to be
so filled with patriotic fervor that he took out Lee
(08:16):
Harvey oh's Wald before Lee Harvey oh's Wald could.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Testify to anything.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Now, I will put a final bew on my theory,
and then we'll move on and hear everyone else's theory.
I'll put a final bell on it with this. I
love American mafia stories like any red blooded American male.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I read them.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I watched the documentary's book after book after book I've read.
Now you read one book from one mobster, you're gonna
just anticipate there's a bunch of lies in there. These
are career liars, that's what career criminals are. But it
is remarkably consistent. Account after account after account after account
(08:55):
from Frank Shecheron's book I Heard You Paint Houses to
a Banano Bo to the.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Book after book after book after book.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Mafia guys from back in this era seemed to tell
the exact same tale, some version of it that I
just told you. We helped elect Kennedy, then he screwed
us over. We got to know the CIA really well.
Previously we decided we were going to take out the
(09:24):
American president. One liar, Okay, ten of them. It's probably
as many books as I've read talking about it, all
telling the same tale, probably.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Something to that. This is just my theory.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Now, a lot of that, the background stuff which I
told you is fact, But that's my theory. Will we
ever know, No, we will not ever know. Newly declassified
documents don't shed any light on any of that. Now
they kind of indicate maybe some of that might be true,
but we're never going to get confirmation of it. That's
half the point of taking out the patsy, isn't it.
All ties are severed. Maybe that made you uncomfortable. Maybe
(10:02):
I'm right.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Let's talk to someone else who has a theory, shall
we next. I love to sleep. I've always been this way.
I know it's some kind of weird sickness, but I've
never even been in a phase in.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
My life where I didn't love to sleep.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Even as you're a wild young man, eleven o'clock midnight
at the latest.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Eh, I gonna crash.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
As you get older, it gets harder, doesn't it. That's
where dream powder from Beam comes in. You see, dream
powder will have you sleeping like a baby, no matter
your age, whether you love it, whether you hate it,
whether you're naturally good at it or whether you're not.
It's natural sleep, not drug induced sleep. It's all natural
things like raychi and magnesium. It's a cup of hot chocolate.
(10:55):
It'll have you drifting off to sleep and sleeping like
a baby every single night. Go to Shopbeam dot com
slash Jesse Kelly and that gets you up to forty
percent off.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Just try one bag. You'll always have some my promise.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Shopbeam dot com slash Jesse Kelly.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
The JFK files.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
As promised, we were about to talk about them, but
I thought maybe it would be better if you heard
it from more of an expert on the subject than me.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Larry Hancock joins us. Now he's the author of the
book The Oswald Puzzle.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Okay, Larry, before we get into the files, what you
believe the truth to be and all that? What has
been the consensus behind the JFK assassination which still rattles
us to this day.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I think the consensus has certainly been that it was
some form of conspiracy. I think primarily it's leaning towards
people associated with this. There are other possibilities organized crime
in some fashion, Lyndon Baines Johnson in some fashion, but
it's it's in recent years it's more centered around the CIA,
(12:13):
in particular their Operations group, the group that was working
on anti castro activities. And that's okay, that's largely because
JFK had shut down so many of the anti castro activities.
He was taking it away from the CIA, giving it
the military. A lot did this satisfaction within the CIA
(12:35):
about JFK and and several of their officers really considered
them almost treasonous.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, help me understand that, particularly because just presented that
way on its face. Because he's shutting down your department
at CIA.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You may be angry about it.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
You may go home, get drunk, scream at your scream
at your wife, crying your cheerios.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
To take the leap to.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
That assassinate the president of the United States of America
is quite a leap.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That is a leap, and I think that's why it
needs to be qualified. Over time, people have painted with
real broad brushes like, oh, it was the CIA in general,
or it was Godfathers and the mafia in general, and
that's a mistake. In the CIA, there was a very
particular group of people that things were very personal too.
(13:28):
These were CIA officers and the anti Castro exiles that
they had been working with for three years from before
the Bay of Pigs, people that had been involved with
the Bay of Pigs. These are people who have been
trying to bring down the Castro regime and kill Castro.
And that group included Johnny ROSELDI, who was had contacts
(13:50):
with organized crime. But there was a very special group
of people who had been risking their lives literally for
three years to bring down Castro and the other And
in the fall of nineteen sixty three, the message came
down from Washington that JFK was actually beginning covert negotiations
(14:10):
with Videl Castro at his request, and those Castro had
literally floated the offer that he was fed up with Russians.
They demanded him. He wanted to get rid of them.
He was open to discussions of neutrality accommodation with the US.
He had reached out to JFK, and by that fall,
(14:33):
JFK was taking it seriously enough so that he had
detached State Department personnel and they were ready to go
to Cuba for direct talks with Castro. And you can
imagine when these people in Miami, who were trained military operatives,
who have been trying to unseat Castro, they already considered
(14:54):
JFK to have been betrayed them at the Bay of Pigs.
They considered that he had had turned against them with
the missile crisis. This is kind of the third strike.
So when they hear that everything they've been doing, the people,
the friends, they've lost, everything is about to go away
unless JFK goes away. That was the tipping point, very personal.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Okay, I'm sure we'll come back to that.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Let's talk about the JFK files, because now we have
I think it's sixty three thousand pages, so it's a
friggin lot. And unless you are a much faster reader
than I am, I doubt you've combed through every single document.
But I'm sure you've looked at it. What have you
seen anything that blew your skirt up?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I have looked at it, and I have some friends
who are looking at it all night. So basically, what
we've got to understand is what we've seen so far,
which is some sixty thousand pages are almost all re releases.
These are documents that already were at the National Archives.
Many of them have been really least three or four times.
(16:01):
I looked at documents last night that I've seen five
versions of before now, and they're simply being re released
with fewer redactions. In most cases, there are still some reactions.
Some documents are now totally unredacted. So that's good news
in an historical sense. It gives us some names that
(16:21):
we didn't have, some CIA identity, some sources, good good information,
and some good historical material like s Lessinger's advice to
JFK to literally take apart the CIA, and JFK was
considering that. But it's good historical information. But there's certainly
(16:42):
no smoking gun in regard to the assassination itself. And
as they say, it's almost all re releases. We may
get some new documents from the FBI. They say they
found twenty three hundred documents that they had not associated
with the JFK assassination before. We haven't seen those yet.
Those will be interesting, but some interesting things for me,
(17:07):
For example, having written the Oswald Puzzle, there's a lot
of speculation that Oswell went to Russia as a CIA asset.
They sponsored him. One of the documents I saw last
night was the CIA talking internal document talking about how
it didn't understand how Oswald had gotten too Russia through Helsinki,
how he'd gone there so quickly. They were concerned about
(17:31):
how he'd gone to Russia coming back with the Russian wife.
Certainly doesn't sound like they were behind is going or coming.
So that sort of information is helpful as well. But
that's not about the assassination. That's about Oswald.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Okay, So.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I guess something has me a little bit confused. I
just not that I thought there was going to be
some bombshell in this. But for sixty plus years, a
bunch of documents have been kept from the American publican
president after president after president, including Donald Trump himself, has.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Talked about releasing.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Them, and then someone's in their airs saying please don't,
please don't, and then we finally get them and it's
just not It's just not anything that blew me away.
So why is the secrecy? Why wasn't this out in
nineteen sixty four?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Well, I think that at least maybe we can explain.
It would be good to be able to explain something. Right,
the CIA in particular, not so much the FBI, but
the CIA always said it was withholding documents because of names,
names of people, identities of people, names of sources that
might you know, endanger people back then or might certainly
(18:44):
hurt their reputations. I looked at a document last night,
quite a lengthy document that listed the names of a
whole series of CIA media assets, okay, and that a
lot of that had been withheld. Now is that going
to be embarrassing to the families of people who said
that they were, you know, totally objective and open journalists
(19:07):
to see that they have been taking information from the
CIA for years and would be and the CIA had
file names for them and considered them assets that could
be embarrassing. I looked at other documents last night that
talked about sources, how the CIA was getting information from
the British, the Australians, how they were getting domestic information
(19:32):
and sharing it with the FBI. Those are all things
that certainly at that time could have been embarrassing for individuals,
but could have compromised programs. Another thing that we saw
was actually names of people and some of the CI operations,
names of people in some of these Cuban operations. We
(19:55):
knew about the operations before, we didn't know exactly who
was involved. Now we can see who was involved, what
their cryptonyms were really trace their activities. Might that shock
some of their relatives, some of their relatives who might
even still be in Cuba to know, you know that
their relatives have been actively operated. There are also documents
(20:17):
that show list of Castro supporters, Cuban intelligence personnel, and
we're seeing true names so to some extent that is
related to individuals and their roles, maybe to living relatives
That's the closest I can see to explain the reactions.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Up to date.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Okay, now let's talk about Lee Harvey Oswald, because you
wrote the book on it.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Who was this guy? Was he? Do you believe?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Was he being controlled by somebody? Look like you mentioned
in the beginning, everyone has a theory. If you asked
my old man, may God rest his soul. He's swore
to the to the day he died that Lyndon Johnson
killed JFK. If you ask me, I'd tell you I
think the mob worked with the CIA to kill JFK.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
But I don't know. I just know what I read.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
What do you think I can tell you more about Oswald?
One of the reasons I can tell you more about
Oswald is Oswald. He talked a lot. He did have friends,
Contrary to what you might be led to believe, he
had friends that he talked about politics and international relations,
even in the Marines.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
He wrote a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
In nineteen sixty three, he was writing a lot about
what he thought the world should be like. He was
very much in favor of economic justice, the availability of
medical care, racial justice. So we get a lot of
insight into what he said. He was interviewed on TV,
he was interviewed on radio. He wrote a lot, so
(21:52):
we have good insights with him, and in the book
we offer a very contrarian picture to what you get
in the Warrant Commission and to some JFK conspiracy. Basically,
the first two thirds of the book is what we
consider a solid biography as Oswald as an individual, you know,
(22:13):
just set aside speculation, this is his real history. The
last third of the book is what we see. It's
a scenario speculation on our part, but we think pretty
solid of how he was set up by people who
engaged with him in New Orleans that summer anti Castro
exiles who were representing themselves as Procastro, and essentially hooked
(22:37):
into a situation where he was essentially available to be
framed as part of the assassination pointing the Castro because
the people that carried out the assassination not only wanted
to kill JFK, they wanted to point it towards Castro,
and for the parties that were directly involved were told
(22:58):
that that would stimulate the US to attack Cuba and
eliminate Castro. Later on, I've talked to some people of
their families. They felt that they were misled in that part,
but that's another story. Oswald's a very unique individual, so
we think we can give a perspective that you didn't
get in the Warrant Commission, who had to pay him
(23:20):
as a loaner. They had to pay him as asocial,
violent radical, and that's not what you see in the
real Oswald. They needed to do that because they could
come up with no motive. Everybody they talked to about
he and JFK said yeah, he talked positively about JFK.
He said JFK was maybe the only president who could
(23:42):
deal with Khrushchev and reach some sort of detime and
avoid war. So the War Commission was really hard pressed
to present him with any kind of motive. So they
essentially had to adjust the picture of him as someone
who can be considered a lone nut, which he was neither.
(24:03):
He was not loan he was not a nut. His
IQ tested at one hundred and eighteen, very bright, and
he's one of the best spoken and actually, as marine
officers complained that he could talk geopolitics about as well
as they could and the Marines, and this is a
marine officer who graduated in political science from Georgetown.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Okay, so Jack Ruby, I mean, I can't let you
go without asking about Jack Ruby, because that's always the thing, right.
You have this Dallas area strip club owner who most people,
I mean, I guess a lot of people don't realize this.
At one point in time, he was an unfors or
a leg breaker from Mayer Lanski's Jewish mob. So we
had mafia ties, a tiny mob, Jewish mob all over
(24:50):
the place. He was got filled up with patriotic fervor
all of a sudden. But where do you explain Jack
Ruby to me?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I can do that, almost do that for change. Okay.
You mentioned Mayor Lansky. Jack Ruby was connected to Lanski,
to Lanski's casino activities in Cuba before the Castor Revolution.
He actually was a FBI criminal witness in gun running
(25:25):
to Cuba. Jack Ruby had a lot of Cuban connections,
but the most important was to a fellow named Johnny Rosselli.
Johnny Rosselli was basically a consultant. He was mentored by Lanski.
He had gone to Cuba to run Lanski's casinos and
straighten up things in Cuba. He was very important because
(25:47):
he was trusted by godfathers. He placed money for them,
he got talent for them, his business card, says strategist.
I got to love that Roselli had a direct connection
based in Cuba to Jack Ruby, and we can paid
a pretty concrete trail that actually Roselli was used as
(26:11):
a cutout. Roselli was part of this same team that
I talked about before that had been working to first
poison Castro then attack him with rifle teams. He'd been
in this same team that had been trying to kill
Castro and overthrower regime for some three years with the
(26:32):
CI officers that had been involved, and he was brought
into the plot because they were comfortable with him and
because they specifically could provide him a deniable connection into
Dallas to get a field guy on the ground to
new dirty cops who knew how to get information inside
(26:54):
Dallas about the motorcade route to could support this team
into And we pretty much have that laid out as
to how Roselle served as the cutout using Jack Ruby,
and how Jack Ruby was brought in as field support
to this team that went to Dallas for the assassination.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Totally fascinating. I can't wait to read the book. Thank
you so much, sir.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
It is the OS. Would go read the book the
os wal and puzzle. All right, I love my cell
phone company.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And I hate to sound like such a brutal cheapo,
but it's just the bill alone. Honestly, if it was
nothing else about pure Talk, if it was just my bill,
I would love it. We were paying a fortune at
T Mobile and we switched to Puretalk and our family
bill got cut in half. Average family saves a thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
A year when they switched to Puretalk. Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And it's for the same service. They're in the same
five G network. Is the big guys? What you keep
your phone? You keep your phone number. We're talking a
pain free, money saving switch to a phone company that
shares and promotes your values, cares for veterans, not black
lives matter. Go to pure Talk dot com slash Jesse
(28:26):
TV and make the switch. Pure Talk dot com slash JESSETV.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
We'll be back.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Well.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
The thing about JFK's death is assassinations still reverber rates,
but so many people will talk about how well the
secrets died that day. All the secrets died that day.
There's no new. There's nothing new we can ever find out.
But I guess that depends on who you talk to.
Joining me now, Damon West, author of the book Six
Dimes in a Nickel. It's going to talk about these things, Damon,
(29:04):
before we get into your JFK story.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Who are you, hey, man, Jesse, what's going on?
Speaker 5 (29:09):
Brother? Thanks for having me to brother.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
You know, people describe me as a keynote speaker, best
selling author, but really I'm a family man. I'm a
guy that's living on my life in recovery. Back in
two thousand and nine, a jury in Dallas sends me
to life in prison for engage joann as crime.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
I was the leader of a bunch of.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Other methadics breaking in the houses all over Dallas to
feed our meth addiction. It's a rico case and I
got sent this to sixty five years in prison, which
is six times.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
In a nickel, which is the name of the book.
That's what they call it, a prison slang, six times
a nickel. But it was in that time in prison
that I learned.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
About the story the message the Coffee Bean, and the
coffee Bean message says that in the pot of boiling
water called life.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
You get three.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
Choices, do you I a carrot that turns soft, an
egg that becomes hardened by the water, or a coffee
bean which changes the pot of boiling water into a
pot of coffee. And ever since that inmate named Mohammad
told me the story of the coffee bean, that's what
I did. I transform myself inside that pot of ble
and water. That's a maximum security level five person in
the state of Texas. And the transformation was so complete
(30:07):
seven years into my sentence, the parole board came to
visit me and they.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
Let me go.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Not exactly a free man, Jesse, because I'm on parole
until the year two thousand and seventy three.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
But in the past ten years since I've.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Been out, I've been able to accomplish a lot in
life by living out that coffee bean philosophy. I've become
a husband and stepfather. I've become one of the most
sought after speakers in America. But like I said, I
stay sober one day at a time with my program recovery.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
How about that? Good for you, my brother.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I love when people get out and make and turn
things around.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
It blesses me blesses me.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
To well, you know, Jesse, here's the thing people love.
What I found is I'm a storyteller. Right, People love storytellers.
And I think human beings have always learned from stories.
We've always either learned lessons and morals from stories. We
learned principles from stories. We've been entertained by stories for millennia.
Human beings that learned it the few the storytellers. And
that's really what I've become, Jesse. I've had this incredible
(31:01):
you know, I tell my wife every day.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
I can't believe this is my life.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
But in this life right now, I get to go
out and share these stories and these messages that I've
picked up along the way. And as a storyteller, I
know that people love certain stories and certain elements. Right, Americans,
we love underdog stories, Jesse.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
We love it.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
We love because when the underdog wins, we win. We
love stories that have sports in it. I've got that
in my story too. I was a Division one starting
quarterback at twenty years old at the University of North Texas.
But we really love true crime in prison stories, Jesse.
And that's what's going to dove tell us into this
conversation today is the true crime in prison aspect. Here's
the reality of life, and I go around speaking as
a speaker all the time. Most people will never have
(31:40):
a swat team take them down.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
I get that.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Most people will never have to live inside of a
maximum security level five prison.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
I get that too.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
But in my mind I understand that the swat teams
of life come for us in different ways.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Right a swat team of life.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
Could be a divorce, It could be a bankruptcy, It
can be a marriage fel and it could be a
job ge get lost.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
It could be something from one of.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Your kids or one of your pets, life altering events,
or when the swat team comes forwards. But when the
swat teams come, you have to ask yourself, what's the
opportunity to diversity here? Because I believe I know that
inside of every adverse, difficult situation in life, there's an
opportunity there for you to grow, an opportunity for you
become a better version of yourself. In fact, I believe
(32:21):
the best version of you is on the other side
of whatever adversity you face in life. But the catch, Jesse,
is that you have to go through that adversity to
meet the best version of you in prison. Like I said,
you know, most people will never go live inside of
a maxistruted prison. But I can tell you this, Jesse,
without a doubt, that I meet more people out here
in the free world who are locked up than I
ever did when I serve time in a real prison.
(32:42):
Because more people are in prison by their thoughts, by
their things, by their prejudices, than by steel bars and
barbar and concrete combined. And you can take that from
the guy that's spent almost ten years in the joint
or the professor who teaches about the joint.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
Because one of the things I've been able to.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Do, Jesse, since I got out of prison, I went
back to school. I got a master's degree in criminals.
I wanted people to take me more serious than just
some other ex con that walked out of prison. And
I became a criminal justice professor at the University of
Houston Downtown. Get this, Jesse, teaching a class called Prisons
in America. How about that? For flipping the script of
a little bit.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
Jesse, who's j T JT Goad? I figured we.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Would get to j T In's conversation, so you know,
when you go to prison, you take a lot of
people with the Jesse. You take your victims of the crimes,
you take your family members, you take your friends, you
take everybody believed, and you take the taxpayers with you
on a riot because they're the one's gonna fund it.
So you take a lot of people with him and
you go to prison. But you also meet a lot
of people inside of the prison. I met a lot
(33:41):
of different people inside there, But the most interesting person
I met in there was a guy named Jerry Thomas Gode.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
Went by the name of j T.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
JT was an old mobster from Dallas. He grew up
cutting his teeth in the Dallas mob in the early sixties.
By the time I saw him in prison, he was
an old man. He had given his life to Christ.
He was really he's really one of those people, one
of those rare people, I think Jesse that walked the talk.
You know, he didn't just talk about being a Christian.
He lived being a Christian, lived by the code of
forgiveness of you know, mercy and justice, and you know,
(34:13):
he was just a really good guy. When I met him.
JT had these interesting stories.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Jesse, I mean, he.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Had all kinds of really great stories about his day
growing up inn organized crime. He really took an interest
to me at first because I was an organized crime
guy out of Dallas, and.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
You know, and JT was joke and he told me, he.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Said that us organized crime guy's got to stick together,
which was just fine with me because that aligned me
with one of.
Speaker 5 (34:32):
The most respected in the joint.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Everybody respected JT go because JT had a lot of
street currency that he came in with. So as JT
and I got closer Jesse, he started telling me more
stories about his days growing up in the Dallas mob.
And you know, I'm doing the math and I'm putting
the time frame together, and so I'm like, hey, JT,
what do you know about the jfk assassination? He said,
(34:55):
you mean the JFK hit.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
So here we go. J T told me, without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
The stuff I'm gonna tell you now is quote from JT.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
J T told me, without a.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Doubt that the mob killed j F. Kennedy, and he
told me a story about why. But before I get
to the story that he told me about the mob
being the people behind it, let me tell you some
of the else. Some of the other stuff he told
me at granular level that was going on in the
city of Dallas at the time. JT said that they
had a lot of cops the take in Dallas. He said,
(35:28):
they ran around and did crime with impunity the mob did.
He told me a story about JD.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Jesse, do you remember JD.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
Tippett? I do, okay, So he told me a story
about JD. Tippet.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
J T told me that Tippett was one of the
most reliable guys the mob had they worked with in
Dallas Police department. He told me a story specifically, this
is before JFK get tipped. This is the early sixties.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
He said.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
He and his crew were hitting a four sham shoe warehouse.
Cop car rolls up, sirens are wailing. His guys split
their run for it, but JK doesn't run because he
recognizes the guy behind the wheel. So he goes up
to the window, taps on the window. It's JD.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
JT makes some small talk with Tippett, he said. Then
he asked Tippett what size shoe he wore.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Tippett told him.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
J T yelled to his guys, loaded up the car
with this size shoe. He said, we must have loaded
fifty bucks of shoes into his car, and J JD.
Tippet drove away that night, no sirens and no no
sirens and no lights going on on the way leaving.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
JT told me that he believed j. JD.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Tippett was sent to kill Olswald to tie up the
loose end and they would have known each other through
Jack Ruby because Jack Ruby was going to be the
connector with Oswald and with JD.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
So JD. Tippett he believed, was sent to kill Ollswald
after the president was shot. But obviously forty five minutes
after the president was shot, Lee Harvey Olswald gets the
jump on JD. Tippet and shoots JD.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
Tippett.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
But like j T told me, he said, how do
you think JD. Tippett knew where to be by the
boarding house where Lee Harvey Olsweald was staying. So I
got into the talk about the JFK assassination and he said,
you mean the JFK hit obviously because he's talking about
the mob did it. And he told first question I
have was, well, you think Lee Harvey Olswold was only shooter.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
He goes, no, there were multiple.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Shooters and by his by his, by his estimation, he
felt like there were at least four shooters there.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
But he said, dam and I knew at least one
of the other shooters there that day.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
So the day before the JFK hit, he runs into
Charles Harrelson in a bar in Dallas. Now, Charles Harrelson
is an infamous hit man. Charles Harrison actually went to
prison and died in prison for assassinating the federal judge
in nineteen seventy nine. And in fact, JT told me
a story also about Charles Harrison about before that hit too.
(37:51):
But he's telling me about running into Charles Harrison at
a bar in Dallas the.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
Day before John F. Kennedy is shot.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
And he said he saw Charlie in the bar and
he asked Charlie, said, hey, Charlie, what are you doing
in town.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Charlie said, I'm here on business.
Speaker 4 (38:07):
JT said That's all I had to know, because Charlie's
business was killing people, so I understood what Charlie was
in town. J T also told me that a few
days before Kennedy was coming to town, his boss told
him get all the girls off the street. Now. JT's
job at the time he ran girls, guns and drugs
all over Dallas for the mob. So his boss is
telling him to get the girls off the street. Something
(38:28):
big is going down. JT even pushed back on him
a little bit. He said, man, you know, if we
get all the girls off the street, you know, you know,
something bad could happen to him if they go out
there and freelance on their own.
Speaker 5 (38:38):
Guys said, it doesn't matter, get them off the street.
Something big is going down.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
So in November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, JF. Kennedy
is shot and killed in Dallas, Texas. The story JT
told me next Jesse was so wild and I've never
heard it anywhere else. I asked j T to write
it down for me and and he did, but he
gave me one instruction with it. He said, you can't
share this story until I'm bad, damn. So after I'm dead,
(39:04):
you can share the story I'm telling you. JT died
on February twenty first, twenty twenty three. This book coming
out right now was the first opportunity to share this
letter that JT wrote me. And you know, honestly, Jesse,
I I didn't have any intention of coming out and
talk about this letter before the book comes out. It's
just the final chapter. The final chapter of the book
is called the bonus chapter. It's called JT's story. So
(39:26):
many people are fascinated with the character of JT. They
wanted more. He was actually a person that made an
appearance in my first book, The Change Agent, and people
wanted to know more about this guy. Where again, Jesse's storytellers,
we're fascinated by stories about true crime in prison. Who's
not fascinating America with mob stories. So the bonus chapter
at the end of Six Times in a Nickel is
(39:46):
about JT. And it has this letter that he wrote me.
So JT's telling me this is after the jfk assassination.
He's got the girls working the streets again, and he
gets a frantic call from one of his girls and
he goes and meets with her. She said, I got
a friend that's in this serious trouble. And this is
I'm paraphraser from the letter Jesse. So these are not
going to be exact quotes, but all this is coming
(40:06):
from JT. So JT talks to this girl, and she said, listen,
my friend is a burless dancer at Jack Ruby's club.
It's called the Carrotsel Club, famous burless club in Dallas.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
So she's one of the burlest queens for Ruby.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
And she was staying after tonight to clean out her
locker because she met an airline pilot and she was
going to go off and get married and leave the life.
But as she was getting ready to leave, she heard
two people screaming in and it was in Jack Ruby's office.
And Jack Ruby's office is at the end of the
hallway and the stairwell to get down is right past
(40:43):
his office, so she has to go buy this office.
But in this letter, JT tells the story that this
girl overheard a conversation and it's two men screaming.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
One of them is Jack Ruby.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
One of them is Frank Costello, the head of the
New York Mob New York and Chicago guy. So Ruby
is telling Costello, no, I'm not gonna do it, man,
go find someone else, and Costello is telling him your
goal and to kill.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Lee Harvey Allswald at the Dallas Police headquarters.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
You're going to do this for us, And she said,
Ruby was protesting saying why, I don't know why you
want me to do it, and Costello's telling him because
you're the only one that can basically get in there,
and we have someone on the inside waiting for you
and they know they're gonna let you in. You're gonna
go do this, and if you don't do it, Costello said,
we're going to kill that little dog here that we
need dog you like and if you know anything about
(41:29):
Jack Ruby had this, we need dog. I think her
name was Sasha.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
Yeah, SHACKI actually left the.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
Dog in the car when he killed All's Wald if
you read up on it. So Costello is telling you,
if you don't do this for us, we're gonna kill
your dog, then you don't want to know what we're
gonna do to you before we kill you.
Speaker 5 (41:43):
But you're going to kill Lee Harvey Olswald.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
You're going to do this now. And this girl realized
that she heard something she should not have heard, and
then JT's letter. She says she tried to get out
of there quietly, but a sound gave her away, and
now Ruby and Costello are chasing this girl down the stairs.
She runs outside of the car gar Cel Club and
waiting outside was a guy, a cab driver in the
cab reading the newspaper. She said, she jumped in the cab.
(42:06):
She screamed to the guy, go go go. He takes
off Costello and Ruby and all the guys are chasing
down the street. So this girl goes into hiding. JT's
girl is saying, listen, she wants to get out of here.
She wants to go to Waco. She's got a stepsister
in Waco that no one knows anything about. She just
wants out of this life. And JT is like, look,
(42:26):
I'm not gonna help her. The stuff that she heard
can get me killed. I don't want anything to do
with her. But she pleads with him, and JT's like,
all right, I'll help her.
Speaker 5 (42:33):
So he goes.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
First thing he says in the letter that he does,
he gets what a friend of it is that no
one in the mob knows. This friend's got a fast
car too. So he says, hey, look, let's let's take
your car. I need to bar your car.
Speaker 5 (42:45):
And he goes and he picts this girl up where
she's hiding and he gets her in the car. And
this girl wants to stop and.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Get a ring a diamond ring of hers from a
friend of hers that works at one of the bars
in Dallas, and JT is trying to tell this girl,
let's get you to Waco, let's get you out out
of here. Forget that ring. You can get another ring
some other time, but she's insistent to get this ring.
So JT takes her by that bar and he says, listen,
you've got thirty minutes, and if you're not out in
thirty minutes, then I'm out of here. Well, in the letter,
(43:13):
Jay talks about this stalling and he's taking a long time,
taking longer than he thought he should. And he said
in the letter, as soon as the girl comes out
of the bar, all these Dallas squad cars come pulling up,
and they actually cuff this girl and shove in the
back of an unmarked police car and they drive away,
and the JT's about half a block back, and so
he follows this caravan in police cars down to the
(43:35):
Dallas Police station on Harwood, one of the Dallas police precincts.
JT's pretty smoop by this, but he drives off and
a couple hours later in the letter, he says he
calls their mob warrior God, they got that handles all
their mob business. Calls him up and he says, hey, listen,
there was a girl that was helping the night she
got arrested. She got taken to the city jail on Harwood.
Can you can you call in there and see if
(43:56):
there's a way we can get her out here a bond,
JT said. The mob lawyer called him back and said,
forget about that girl. And JT was like, why you said,
Because the girl you're talking about hung herself tonight in
Dallas City jail with the nylons. Now, Jesse, if this
guy's telling the truth, and I don't think JT was
lying to me. JT was a pretty neat guy. But
(44:19):
j T was a good Christian guy at the time
I met him, and he has nothing to gain by
lying about this. This is such a cranular story, right,
Why would a person that's so eager to live her
life and go off and get married to this airline
pilot and start a new life over again. Why would
she hang herself in Dallas City jail. Obviously JT's implying
that someone else inside the jail help her hang herself, right, real?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
How about that damon that was unbelievably interesting. Thank you,
my friend. All Right, we'll be back. Interesting stuff, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Isn't it fun having these historical debates where you theorize
this and theorize that. Now, look, I realize still a
heavy moment to this day, all these years later.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
I wasn't even alive. Somebody murdered the American president.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
It's worthwhile to dig into who, especially if the who
is the American government itself. That opens up a whole
new can of worms, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Anyway?
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I hope you enjoyed it. I most definitely did. We'll
do it again.
Host
Jesse Kelly
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.