Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Michael Blaze. Thanks for tuning into Your Home
three sixty today the show where we talk about everything
that has to do with your home. So today we
are going to expand on the subject of assistance animals. Now,
I've done segments on this show about this very subject
before because it's a pretty convoluted subject. You know, you
(00:21):
have service animals, you have support animals. What's the difference
and how do different regulations affect how you're going to
respond to tenants about having a assistance animal, whether it
be a service animal or a support animal. Thankfully, we
have an expert today to explain it all to us.
On the line with me is Victoria Coward. You may
(00:42):
know Victoria as the chairperson of the Berkeley County GOP
and I happen to be doing a segment on Your
Home three sixty about service animals and Victoria called me
and said, you know what, that's my main job. So, Victoria,
I've really had no idea until you told me. So,
what's your official title.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I'm the director of Education Outreach for a company by
the name of Pet Screening out of Mooresville, North Carolina,
and we help rental property owners manage their pets and
assistance animal data information process, these policies, revenue and risk management.
So we're involved in all of that. A big fact that,
(01:19):
of course, is the whole assistance animal piece.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yes, so assistance animals, service animals. I first was had
to delve into that world with a rental property that
I was managing, and I had a potential renter come
to me and say, you know, my son has a
service animal. And I had to go educate myself on
how to deal with that legally because there's all kinds
of implications there. These animals and how to legally handle
(01:43):
the situation is treated differently between the American with Disabilities Act,
the Fair Housing Law, and within different governmental agencies and
rules and regulations. And the more I dug into it
and the more I peeled back the layer, as you
start to realize that there's a different definition of what
(02:05):
they are among these different agencies. So let's start there. So, Victoria,
what is an assistance animal?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well, the assistance animal, it's a great place to start.
An assistance animal in in fair housing terms, is either
a service or a support animal. So the Department of
Housing and Urban Development is the regulatory partner that helps
housing providers navigate the fair Housing legislation. And in fair
(02:35):
housing legislation, assistance animals are either and regulation I should
say as well, supplemental regulation are either service or support animals.
But that's different than talking about this with the US
Department of Transportation when you're talking about the Air Carrier
Access Act, and again that's different when you're talking with
(02:56):
the Department of Justice about the ADA. So there's three
different regulatory partners, three different frameworks, different legislation, and then
different regulations because each of these is taking place in
different settings. So it's confusing for folks, but it's appropriate
because we're talking about all sorts of different settings and
(03:16):
how to accommodate the disabled within those settings.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yes, and how they're defined. So let's start with housing,
since you know this is your home three sixty and
people are concerned about housing issues and rental issues and whatnot.
So as far as a service animal goes under the
Fair Housing Act, you have to accept them. You can't
accept you can't charge them any pet rent, you can't
(03:42):
charge them any extra deposits. And even if you normally
would not accept pets, you have to accept service animals.
Am I correct? In that assessment, you.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Are correct, but I do want to put one one
footnote to that. You know you have to accept proper
service animals. I put the word.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Proper in there because you do have the right.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
To ask them two questions and to review the two answers.
There cannot be a requirement for any paperwork for a
service animal. Now there is for support animals. We'll get
to that. But again this is under the offices of
assistance animals. There's two types. One is service and one
is support.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
A service animal under all.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Three definitions, this is helpful. Under all three definitions, a
service animal is a dog trained for a task for
the benefit of the disabled. And in housing, you can
ask them two questions, what is the animal necessary for
a person with a disability? And what work or task
has the animal been trained to perform? And those are
(04:42):
the two questions, and you know you're going to be
looking at those two answers. You're not going to be
looking at paperwork, right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And so just to be just to make it clear,
so a service animal would be something like a seeing
eye dog, a dog that performs tasks for handicapped people,
and an emotional support animal is simply there for you know,
I mean, the title says it all for their emotional support,
(05:10):
and the definition of those goes well beyond a dog
trained to provide certain tasks.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Right, sure, yeah, you're on the right track, absolutely blazed.
Service animals are definitely defined as dogs individually trained to
do work or perform a task. Those tasks can be
guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf,
pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting your person who's having
a seizure, reminding your person was meant to illness, to say,
prescribe meds, calming a person with PTSD or complex PTSD
(05:39):
during anxiety attack, or performing other duties. So those are
service animals. They are working animals. They are not pets.
They have been trained. That's so important. A support animal
if an animal. This is important to remember. If an
animal is trained to perform a task for the benefit
of the disabled, but is not a dog, it comes
(06:00):
over to the support animal side. So some support animals
are trained animals for the benefit of the disabled, but.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
By virtue of the fact they're not a dog.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
They come over to the support animal column. Other animals
that are support animals. What we hear of most often
are those for therapeutic emotional benefit, often known as EESA
emotional support animals. So those are the two types in
housing of assistant animals. Assistant animals rather service animals and
support animals.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
In housing, all you're allowed to ask for is a
note from the doctor.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Right, Well, I.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Don't want to say a note from a doctor because
it's not necessarily just the doctor who can write that note,
and people make that mistake often. What you have a
right to with regard to documentation specific only to.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
The support animal column is reliable.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Documentation from a healthcare provider or other professional or person
in the know. It could even be someone's pastor that
declares in that document that they are are aware of
that disabled person's needs and conditions, that declares them as
disabled and declares them as having a disability related need
for an assistance animal. And I've got a couple of
(07:11):
footnotes if it's okay to those plays, sure. So, if
you and housing are working with the applicant or resident
and you know them to be disabled, you have seen it,
You've confirmed it financially because you're receiving financial benefits or
income from a disability related organization. If you know in
those fashions, the individuals disabled, you're not looking for it
(07:34):
in the letter, and you're not taking any issue with
the letter. I who doesn't document it? Because once you.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Know, we do know, so you wouldn't look to the letter.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
For confirmation of what you already know. And that's a
mistake people make sometimes too. They want everything to be
you know, you know, cut and dry. Everything is these
five points has to be there. That's not the case.
If you know it, don't look for it. Again. I
also want to offer the footnote, just because someone is
disabled does not mean they have disability related need for
an assistance animal. These animals are supposed to ameliorate the
(08:04):
symptoms associated with their disability. So that's what we're looking
for again. That documentation can be from a healthcare provider
or as a professional person in the know, confirming they know
the individual in their needs, confirming they are disabled if
that confirmation is needed, and confirming they have a disability
related need for an assistance animal, and the documentation should
be reliable.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Now, Victoria, what would prevent somebody from simply wanting to
avoid paying pet rent and a deposit for having that
pet and just going to their minister and saying, hey,
write me a letter.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well, hopefully since you use the minister, I'm going to say,
I pray that that minister has some ethics and does
it just conjure up a document that has no standing
or validity. But to your point, people do produce false
documents all the time, and that's one of the things
(08:57):
that we do at Pet Screening for all facets of
the rental healthing industry, ours is a pre service that
helps companies with their pet policies, their pet data and processes,
as well as everything assistance animal related. We literally process
these accommodation requests or our clients who have rental properties.
(09:18):
And one of the things that we do to ensure
the documentation is quote reliable, is we authenticate it. We
contact the provider of the document solely to authenticate that
provider produce that document for that request or with that
data on it. We do not delve into the relationship
between the provider and the requestor we do not delve
(09:38):
into the details of their disability. These would be offenses
in the eyes of HUD to do either of those things,
but we're only confirming of the documentation and that's very helpful.
Because anyone can sit down and craft a document even
without the aid of their pastor, and put anyone's name
on it. If no one's authenticating the document, it can
(09:58):
certainly look really badalid on its face, but be totally fraudulent.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Right And in as far as housing goes, I mean
literally just about any animal can be considered a support animal,
can't they.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So the individual, though, has to be disabled. That's the
root of this. Let's hit two root things really quickly.
The root of all of this is the Fair Housing Act,
as amended in nineteen eighty eight, with the status of disability,
allows for these civil rights documents, I should say more accurately,
these civil rights for the disabled. So the individual who's
(10:31):
requesting this accommodation. So those are the two key things,
the disability of the individual and the accommodation. The disability
the individual should be known or documented, and a disability.
By saying disability, what we mean is someone with a
physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more
major life activities. For the individual to avail themselves of
these civil rights to be disabled, known or documented, and
(10:54):
then they're asking for a reasonable accommodation and a reasonable
accommodation is a change, exception, or adjustment to that. Landlords
rules policies are practices most often as you referenced earlier plays,
so correctly, not applying pet policies to these animals, not
charging any pet related fees or deposits for these animals,
(11:15):
not holding the household to any pet particular pet limits
because these animals, because of these animals presence, because these
animals do not count as pets, the landlords are really
in my mind, I explain it this way to the
folks side, facilitate educational sessions for think of these animals
as if they are a walker or a wheelchair.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Sure, and just for entertainment value, Victoria, what's the wildest
or the strangers to animal that you've seen a request
for to be allowed into housing?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So you know, I have not seen too too many
that are really wild. I know we at pet Screening
probably have because we're in five million rentals plus across
the country and we've processed a half million accommodation requests.
And again, and service animals just a dog, but support
animals can be any type of animal that provides therapeutic
benefit to the disabled for their disability.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So I think the things that I've.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Seen that make me scratch my head are an emotional
support snake. Of course, we've seen rabbits and ducks, and
I know in the industry, I've heard of a number
of miniature horses or miniature ponies that let me hit
that one for a second, because people are always thinking
that that is absolutely ridiculous, and it's not often heard of.
(12:34):
But it's not ridiculous either. Some people are using these
miniature horses or ponies, and they should be applying for housing,
by the way, because that counts as a barnyard variety
animal of a support nature. They should be applying to
live in housing that includes a fence in area if
they have such an animal, because that's under the new
hood notice that came out in twenty twenty. They created
(12:56):
some differentiations and the different classifications that you have domesticate
animals than you have unique animals, and then in unique animals,
some are considered barnyard variety. So under the barnyard variety
they should be applied to live in housing with a
fence in yard. And what makes these miniature horses not
ridiculous is some people are really using them as guide
guide horses for the blind and or as stability animals
(13:20):
for the mobility impaired, you know, the mobility disabled individuals.
And the reason that they are so good is because
large dogs that can perform this task are going to
live what seven to you know, six to nine years.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
These miniature popes or horses as they're called, can live fifteen,
twenty or more years, and so it's so expensive to
get these.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Animals trained and prepared for use by the disabled that
that increased lifespan does make this really understandable. If you
have a true service animal that's been you know, and
again this is providing a service, but it's considered a
support animal because it's not a dog. But if it's
really an animal providing that type of train service for
the disabled, that makes great sense that it's got that
(14:06):
longevity of life.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yes, And you know, and sticking with the theme of
the support animal. In a rental property, and you're the landlord,
we've already established you know, you can't charge any you
can't apply your regular pet policy to them. You have
to accept them. You can't charge pet rent you can't
charge a pet deposit. Now what about the HOA, So
(14:30):
that applies to landlords. Do the hoas have to follow
those same rules as the landlord.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So let me back up for just one second, because
I do want to address one thing that you've mentioned
a couple of times, plays about having to accept them.
Landlords are supposed to accept and approve of reasonable accommodation requests.
And I've gone over for a support animal the four
things that they have a right to see in that document. Right,
(14:57):
they don't have to accept every request that's given to them.
They do have a right to have a policy and
procedure with regard to how they're going to process these requests.
And they do have a right to look at the
answers to the service animal questions and to look at
the documentation for the support animal requests, and to look
for the things that they have a right to see
in that documentation. And I believe to authenticate the documentation
(15:21):
as well, because reliable documentation is their right as well.
You know, they do have a process they can go through.
They don't just get handed a paper and say okay
and walk away, you know, with no rights in this process.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Right. Well, and thank you for clarifying that, because I was,
you know, I was stating that from the viewpoint that
it's a legitimate request that you have to accept them,
not that not that somebody can just say, hey, this
is what it is. And I've got my pet rattlesnake here,
and you know, I consider it an emotional support animal.
(15:53):
So yeah, thanks for clarifying that. So I was, you know,
coming from the TAC that it's a legitimate request.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah, if I could say one more thing, because you
said because you said rattlesnake, I knew you were coming
from the right angle on that. But I wanted to
remind people because so many landlords think I just have
to take whatever they hand me. So I want to
emphasize that because people could pop into this message, you know,
in this interview at and E give the point, but
I also want to tell folks, this is a reasonable
accommodation request for the disabled that they're required by law
(16:22):
to consider. Won't tell them what's reasonable, but one thing
that could be unreasonable is a request that poses a
direct threat to their community. So if the animal, for instance,
if the owner happens tomit the animal has a bite history,
and that it walks in with a muzzle on its mouth,
that might lead them to realize and discover information and
communication with that requestion that the animal poses a direct
(16:42):
threat to the community based upon its prior actual history,
and that is something they can also consider because again,
what is reasonable at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yes, and so let's get back to the HOA question.
So for what is demanded of the landlord is also
demanded of the HOA.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Correct, absolutely, And they're some of the worst offenders, you know.
Hoas will often say, Hey, it's in our by laws,
we can do this. You can't have three pets in
your house and you've already got two dogs, and so
we're going to deny this request for a reasonable accommodation for.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
A support animal because you can.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Only have two and this would be three. Well, right there,
this is housing. You know, people who are seeking housing
or housing related assistance, you know, are covered in this
and it doesn't differentiate apartment from HOA and so hoas
are famous for just saying, well, it's in our bylaws. Well,
just because you put something in your bilaws doesn't mean
it's legal. Right, matter of fact, you've a matter of fact,
(17:41):
you've documented your own pattern and practice of disregarding the
Fair Housing Act. So get that out of your bylaws
and stop relying on it incorrectly, because you too can
get sued for a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, you just shot yourself and the you know what,
when you do that, it wouldn't be any different than
putting in your bylaws some kind of restriction on familial
status or sexual orientation, or religion or anything else. So
you know, it's considered the same thing under the law.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Absolutely. There are seven federally protected classes, and in certain
municipalities county states there are additional federally protected classes. But
we do have seven federally protected classes in this legislation,
this Fair Housing Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act
in nineteen eighty eight added two more, and I like
to remind landlords of the seven protected classes plays by
(18:32):
saying this sentence. Residents can now really sue for discrimination
because those federally protected classes are race, color, national origin, religion, sex,
familial status, and disability. Residents can now really do for discrimination.
And HOA owners and or the renters in an HOA
because that owner is renting out their house or their
(18:54):
condo in that regime, you know, all of this is covered.
It's housing where they're laying their heads on. As you know,
they have a right to be able to use and
enjoy their home more like a non disabled person can
if an accommodation, a reasonable accommodation will help them do so.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Absolutely. And you know what we say in the real
estate industry is a side note because this goes for
advertising also, you know, is describe the property because I
come up with I can come up with so many
different ways that could be viewed by any of these
agencies as an infraction. If I say this house is
(19:33):
close to a synagogue or a church, if it's close
to even something is benign as a Chinese restaurant or
something like that, it can be considered that you're, you know,
kind of dog whistling to a certain religion or to
a certain you know, nationality, or whatever it might be.
(19:56):
So you have to be very careful in your advertising too.
So I just wanted to out, oh yeah, correct, yeah,
And it's such an interesting subject. But now let's let's
jump to the difference between fair housing. And this is
interesting to me too in how it's considered. Say, if
you want to take one of these animals on an airplane.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Okay, so jumping to that, now we're talking. You know,
you've got legislation, and then you have that legislation. You know,
you have a regulatory partner who helps you abide by
that legislation, and that regulatory partner also at their regulations.
You know, on top of things is you know how
to navigate the legislation is the regulation right? So with
(20:38):
air travel, you've got the US Apartment of Transportation and
they're working with the Air Carrier Access Act. And this
is where it starts to get much more simple. They're
only dealing with service animals. And again they have the
same definition of dog individually trained to do work or
perform paths for the benefit of an individual with a disability.
And again it could include psycho, physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual,
(21:03):
or other mental disability. UH. And then species other than dogs, emotional,
support animals, comfort animals, all of that are not serviced animals.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
And they're only going to be dealing.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
With service animals on the airplanes unless you're talking about
a pet, and then that's a whole different area. So
they're not dealing with support animals. They're only dealing with
service animals, and the service animal has to be permitted,
and the airlines are going to follow whatever process they
do for you know, for documenting this, and I'm sure
they're just asking those same two questions. But that service
(21:35):
animal must be permitted to accompany the traveler in potentially
in their lap and or under the space in front
of them, under the seat. It can't block space that
has to be unobstructed for safety reasons, So they don't
there's a big dog into the exit row, for instance.
They're not required to upgrade them to a different class
(21:56):
of service to accommodate the service animal. You know, they
can't use to allow the service animal on board because
it makes other people or the flight crew uncomfortable, and
the service animal has to behave properly. Animals that engage
in disruptive behavior are not going to be accepted as
service animals, and true service animals don't behave that way.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
We all know that, Yeah, And I wanted to make
that distinction because, you know, some people that may be
familiar with what you can take on an airplane might
confuse that with well, it's the same thing that applies
to my rental house, and it's not. It's you know,
it's a different set of rules and a different set
of standards.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It is. You're absolutely correct, and I hear people all
the time complain about that. But you have to stop
and think a minute. Are you going to have the
same policies, procedures, practices, rules, guidelines for how you live
in a house versus how you find in an airplane? Right,
you can't. It makes and you're not dealing with the
same regulatory partners. You're not dealing with the same legislation.
You're not dealing with the same regulations, you're not dealing
(22:56):
with the same setting. So it requires differentiation. And it
makes sense when you just just ponder it for five minutes.
And it makes sense right. You know, the HUD doesn't
know anything about the safety of airline practices, so you know,
would they think to say you can't have it in
an area that can't be obstructed like an exit lane,
right so? Or an exitile. So I think this makes
(23:18):
great sense. It just takes us a minute to take
our breath, and you know, be fair about this and
look at it for more than ten seconds. And then
I think all your listeners are bright and they'll get that.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Well, absolutely, And I mean and it also goes to
the point of we wouldn't need all of this regulation.
If people did the right thing to begin with, right
and it so often times they don't, and that's where
these regulations come from. So if you know, if people
would have been fair and accommodating to begin with, then
maybe we wouldn't have all of these different layers of
(23:49):
regulations to peel through.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I don't disagree with you, but in fairness and kindness
and in courtesy, I also want to suggest sometimes people
need to be educated. Does somebody know that an as
Furger's patient might engage in self harming and they can
actually have a dog that is a service animal that
will stop them from hitting themselves in their own heads.
These are some really unique things that you really have
(24:13):
to be interested in to learn about. And you know,
so it's not just fair or gason, it's also educated
and aware. So folks, you know, so credit to your
listeners for listening to this interview and for you for
being interested in doing it place, because we also have
to take the time and opportunity to educate folks.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Well, that's right, and I had to do it myself,
and I'll tell you the truth, Victoria. The first time
I ran across it, I gave the potential renter some misinformation.
I went back and researched it. I ended up calling
them back and I said I was wrong. And from
the discussion that we had, I could even tell that
this mother wasn't quite in tune with what exactly the
(24:51):
law demanded of landlords. And so I said, you know,
whether it's this house you choose or the next one,
here's what I found in my research is wrong with
what I told you in the first place, and I
just wanted to clarify that and do the right thing
and arm you with the correct information to move forward with.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Congratulations, you get good human Cookie Award of the date.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Well, thanks, I was looking for pretty accolades. I was
just you know, to your point of sometimes people are
just uneducated on the subject.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, well, I'm going to give you the accolades anyway.
Good cookie. It goes see you rather because you took
the time to research it. You gave him an answer,
but then you questioned yourself but self awareness. Congratulations, you
did the research. Congratulations, and you called them and admitted
your mistake. Double cookie award there, And then you took
the time to educate her so she could be forewarned
for armed educated and strong in seeking out housing that
(25:44):
helps her son live there and use and enjoy that
home more like a non disabled person can. That is
the whole.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Goal of this.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So yeah, cookie award. Do you don't care if you
don't want it?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Wealth? Well, thanks, Victoria. Well I'll always eat a cookie. Hey,
if we're running out of time here, if there's and
I wanted to make sure I get your contact information
in here, if there's any property managers listening, any businesses
that have the potential to deal with these issues, you know,
anybody that can use your services at all, And you
(26:14):
said they were free. I mean that's fantastic. Go ahead
and tell us how people can reach here.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Sure, thank you. So at pet Screening we're working in
all phases of housing. We really want to help folks
wherever they lay their head on a bed. And I'm
Victoria at Petscreening dot Com and I may or may
not be the team member that will help that particular client,
but I'll refer them internally. I'm the director of Education Outreach,
and I do have my own accounts that I work
as well, and I'll refer them to one of my
(26:39):
sales team partners. Happily again, as Victoria at petscreening dot com.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Victoria, before you go, you know what, we never even
got to the ADA Americans with a Disabilities Act aspect
of all of this. So we're going to do that
on a future show and we'll record a separate segment
dedicated simply to a because there's so much information here
to cover. So I just wanted to point that out
(27:05):
and be listening for a future episode where we'll cover
the American with Disabilities Act and how that affects your
rental house. Victoria, thank you for the fantastic information and
taking the time to educate people on this important subject,
and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. Again, thank you for asking.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That's a lot of information to digest. I hope that
you found it helpful and interesting, and thank you to
Victoria Coward for providing that information. And it's something important
that you have to pay attention to. If you're a landlord,
I'm sure you want to make sure that you not
only do the right thing, but you stay within the law.
That's it for this episode of Your Home three sixty.
(27:45):
You can find this episode in all past episodes online
at ninety four to three WSC dot com. Just go
down to podcasts, click on see all, and then look
for your Home three sixty And of course you can
search for it on your I Heard Radio app. If
you don't have that already, you can download it for free.
It's pretty cool tool. Enjoy the rest of your weekend
(28:06):
and stay safe. I'll talk to you again Monday morning,
starting at six on Charleston's Morning News with Kelly and Blaze.
Thanks for listening to your Home three p sixty
Hey, it's Michael Blaze. Thanks for tuning into Your Home
three sixty today the show where we talk about everything
that has to do with your home. So today we
are going to expand on the subject of assistance animals. Now,
I've done segments on this show about this very subject
before because it's a pretty convoluted subject. You know, you
(00:21):
have service animals, you have support animals. What's the difference
and how do different regulations affect how you're going to
respond to tenants about having a assistance animal, whether it
be a service animal or a support animal. Thankfully, we
have an expert today to explain it all to us.
On the line with me is Victoria Coward. You may
(00:42):
know Victoria as the chairperson of the Berkeley County GOP
and I happen to be doing a segment on Your
Home three sixty about service animals and Victoria called me
and said, you know what, that's my main job. So, Victoria,
I've really had no idea until you told me. So,
what's your official title.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I'm the director of Education Outreach for a company by
the name of Pet Screening out of Mooresville, North Carolina,
and we help rental property owners manage their pets and
assistance animal data information process, these policies, revenue and risk management.
So we're involved in all of that. A big fact that,
(01:19):
of course, is the whole assistance animal piece.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yes, so assistance animals, service animals. I first was had
to delve into that world with a rental property that
I was managing, and I had a potential renter come
to me and say, you know, my son has a
service animal. And I had to go educate myself on
how to deal with that legally because there's all kinds
of implications there. These animals and how to legally handle
(01:43):
the situation is treated differently between the American with Disabilities Act,
the Fair Housing Law, and within different governmental agencies and
rules and regulations. And the more I dug into it
and the more I peeled back the layer, as you
start to realize that there's a different definition of what
(02:05):
they are among these different agencies. So let's start there. So, Victoria,
what is an assistance animal?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well, the assistance animal, it's a great place to start.
An assistance animal in in fair housing terms, is either
a service or a support animal. So the Department of
Housing and Urban Development is the regulatory partner that helps
housing providers navigate the fair Housing legislation. And in fair
(02:35):
housing legislation, assistance animals are either and regulation I should
say as well, supplemental regulation are either service or support animals.
But that's different than talking about this with the US
Department of Transportation when you're talking about the Air Carrier
Access Act, and again that's different when you're talking with
(02:56):
the Department of Justice about the ADA. So there's three
different regulatory partners, three different frameworks, different legislation, and then
different regulations because each of these is taking place in
different settings. So it's confusing for folks, but it's appropriate
because we're talking about all sorts of different settings and
(03:16):
how to accommodate the disabled within those settings.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yes, and how they're defined. So let's start with housing,
since you know this is your home three sixty and
people are concerned about housing issues and rental issues and whatnot.
So as far as a service animal goes under the
Fair Housing Act, you have to accept them. You can't
accept you can't charge them any pet rent, you can't
(03:42):
charge them any extra deposits. And even if you normally
would not accept pets, you have to accept service animals.
Am I correct? In that assessment, you.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Are correct, but I do want to put one one
footnote to that. You know you have to accept proper
service animals. I put the word.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Proper in there because you do have the right.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
To ask them two questions and to review the two answers.
There cannot be a requirement for any paperwork for a
service animal. Now there is for support animals. We'll get
to that. But again this is under the offices of
assistance animals. There's two types. One is service and one
is support.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
A service animal under all.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Three definitions, this is helpful. Under all three definitions, a
service animal is a dog trained for a task for
the benefit of the disabled. And in housing, you can
ask them two questions, what is the animal necessary for
a person with a disability? And what work or task
has the animal been trained to perform? And those are
(04:42):
the two questions, and you know you're going to be
looking at those two answers. You're not going to be
looking at paperwork, right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And so just to be just to make it clear,
so a service animal would be something like a seeing
eye dog, a dog that performs tasks for handicapped people,
and an emotional support animal is simply there for you know,
I mean, the title says it all for their emotional support,
(05:10):
and the definition of those goes well beyond a dog
trained to provide certain tasks.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Right, sure, yeah, you're on the right track, absolutely blazed.
Service animals are definitely defined as dogs individually trained to
do work or perform a task. Those tasks can be
guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf,
pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting your person who's having
a seizure, reminding your person was meant to illness, to say,
prescribe meds, calming a person with PTSD or complex PTSD
(05:39):
during anxiety attack, or performing other duties. So those are
service animals. They are working animals. They are not pets.
They have been trained. That's so important. A support animal
if an animal. This is important to remember. If an
animal is trained to perform a task for the benefit
of the disabled, but is not a dog, it comes
(06:00):
over to the support animal side. So some support animals
are trained animals for the benefit of the disabled, but.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
By virtue of the fact they're not a dog.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
They come over to the support animal column. Other animals
that are support animals. What we hear of most often
are those for therapeutic emotional benefit, often known as EESA
emotional support animals. So those are the two types in
housing of assistant animals. Assistant animals rather service animals and
support animals.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
In housing, all you're allowed to ask for is a
note from the doctor.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Right, Well, I.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Don't want to say a note from a doctor because
it's not necessarily just the doctor who can write that note,
and people make that mistake often. What you have a
right to with regard to documentation specific only to.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
The support animal column is reliable.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Documentation from a healthcare provider or other professional or person
in the know. It could even be someone's pastor that
declares in that document that they are are aware of
that disabled person's needs and conditions, that declares them as
disabled and declares them as having a disability related need
for an assistance animal. And I've got a couple of
(07:11):
footnotes if it's okay to those plays, sure. So, if
you and housing are working with the applicant or resident
and you know them to be disabled, you have seen it,
You've confirmed it financially because you're receiving financial benefits or
income from a disability related organization. If you know in
those fashions, the individuals disabled, you're not looking for it
(07:34):
in the letter, and you're not taking any issue with
the letter. I who doesn't document it? Because once you.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Know, we do know, so you wouldn't look to the letter.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
For confirmation of what you already know. And that's a
mistake people make sometimes too. They want everything to be
you know, you know, cut and dry. Everything is these
five points has to be there. That's not the case.
If you know it, don't look for it. Again. I
also want to offer the footnote, just because someone is
disabled does not mean they have disability related need for
an assistance animal. These animals are supposed to ameliorate the
(08:04):
symptoms associated with their disability. So that's what we're looking
for again. That documentation can be from a healthcare provider
or as a professional person in the know, confirming they know
the individual in their needs, confirming they are disabled if
that confirmation is needed, and confirming they have a disability
related need for an assistance animal, and the documentation should
be reliable.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Now, Victoria, what would prevent somebody from simply wanting to
avoid paying pet rent and a deposit for having that
pet and just going to their minister and saying, hey,
write me a letter.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well, hopefully since you use the minister, I'm going to say,
I pray that that minister has some ethics and does
it just conjure up a document that has no standing
or validity. But to your point, people do produce false
documents all the time, and that's one of the things
(08:57):
that we do at Pet Screening for all facets of
the rental healthing industry, ours is a pre service that
helps companies with their pet policies, their pet data and processes,
as well as everything assistance animal related. We literally process
these accommodation requests or our clients who have rental properties.
(09:18):
And one of the things that we do to ensure
the documentation is quote reliable, is we authenticate it. We
contact the provider of the document solely to authenticate that
provider produce that document for that request or with that
data on it. We do not delve into the relationship
between the provider and the requestor we do not delve
(09:38):
into the details of their disability. These would be offenses
in the eyes of HUD to do either of those things,
but we're only confirming of the documentation and that's very helpful.
Because anyone can sit down and craft a document even
without the aid of their pastor, and put anyone's name
on it. If no one's authenticating the document, it can
(09:58):
certainly look really badalid on its face, but be totally fraudulent.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Right And in as far as housing goes, I mean
literally just about any animal can be considered a support animal,
can't they.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So the individual, though, has to be disabled. That's the
root of this. Let's hit two root things really quickly.
The root of all of this is the Fair Housing Act,
as amended in nineteen eighty eight, with the status of disability,
allows for these civil rights documents, I should say more accurately,
these civil rights for the disabled. So the individual who's
(10:31):
requesting this accommodation. So those are the two key things,
the disability of the individual and the accommodation. The disability
the individual should be known or documented, and a disability.
By saying disability, what we mean is someone with a
physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more
major life activities. For the individual to avail themselves of
these civil rights to be disabled, known or documented, and
(10:54):
then they're asking for a reasonable accommodation and a reasonable
accommodation is a change, exception, or adjustment to that. Landlords
rules policies are practices most often as you referenced earlier plays,
so correctly, not applying pet policies to these animals, not
charging any pet related fees or deposits for these animals,
(11:15):
not holding the household to any pet particular pet limits
because these animals, because of these animals presence, because these
animals do not count as pets, the landlords are really
in my mind, I explain it this way to the
folks side, facilitate educational sessions for think of these animals
as if they are a walker or a wheelchair.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Sure, and just for entertainment value, Victoria, what's the wildest
or the strangers to animal that you've seen a request
for to be allowed into housing?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So you know, I have not seen too too many
that are really wild. I know we at pet Screening
probably have because we're in five million rentals plus across
the country and we've processed a half million accommodation requests.
And again, and service animals just a dog, but support
animals can be any type of animal that provides therapeutic
benefit to the disabled for their disability.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So I think the things that I've.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Seen that make me scratch my head are an emotional
support snake. Of course, we've seen rabbits and ducks, and
I know in the industry, I've heard of a number
of miniature horses or miniature ponies that let me hit
that one for a second, because people are always thinking
that that is absolutely ridiculous, and it's not often heard of.
(12:34):
But it's not ridiculous either. Some people are using these
miniature horses or ponies, and they should be applying for housing,
by the way, because that counts as a barnyard variety
animal of a support nature. They should be applying to
live in housing that includes a fence in area if
they have such an animal, because that's under the new
hood notice that came out in twenty twenty. They created
(12:56):
some differentiations and the different classifications that you have domesticate
animals than you have unique animals, and then in unique animals,
some are considered barnyard variety. So under the barnyard variety
they should be applied to live in housing with a
fence in yard. And what makes these miniature horses not
ridiculous is some people are really using them as guide
guide horses for the blind and or as stability animals
(13:20):
for the mobility impaired, you know, the mobility disabled individuals.
And the reason that they are so good is because
large dogs that can perform this task are going to
live what seven to you know, six to nine years.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
These miniature popes or horses as they're called, can live fifteen,
twenty or more years, and so it's so expensive to
get these.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Animals trained and prepared for use by the disabled that
that increased lifespan does make this really understandable. If you
have a true service animal that's been you know, and
again this is providing a service, but it's considered a
support animal because it's not a dog. But if it's
really an animal providing that type of train service for
the disabled, that makes great sense that it's got that
(14:06):
longevity of life.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yes, And you know, and sticking with the theme of
the support animal. In a rental property, and you're the landlord,
we've already established you know, you can't charge any you
can't apply your regular pet policy to them. You have
to accept them. You can't charge pet rent you can't
charge a pet deposit. Now what about the HOA, So
(14:30):
that applies to landlords. Do the hoas have to follow
those same rules as the landlord.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So let me back up for just one second, because
I do want to address one thing that you've mentioned
a couple of times, plays about having to accept them.
Landlords are supposed to accept and approve of reasonable accommodation requests.
And I've gone over for a support animal the four
things that they have a right to see in that document. Right,
(14:57):
they don't have to accept every request that's given to them.
They do have a right to have a policy and
procedure with regard to how they're going to process these requests.
And they do have a right to look at the
answers to the service animal questions and to look at
the documentation for the support animal requests, and to look
for the things that they have a right to see
in that documentation. And I believe to authenticate the documentation
(15:21):
as well, because reliable documentation is their right as well.
You know, they do have a process they can go through.
They don't just get handed a paper and say okay
and walk away, you know, with no rights in this process.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Right. Well, and thank you for clarifying that, because I was,
you know, I was stating that from the viewpoint that
it's a legitimate request that you have to accept them,
not that not that somebody can just say, hey, this
is what it is. And I've got my pet rattlesnake here,
and you know, I consider it an emotional support animal.
(15:53):
So yeah, thanks for clarifying that. So I was, you know,
coming from the TAC that it's a legitimate request.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah, if I could say one more thing, because you
said because you said rattlesnake, I knew you were coming
from the right angle on that. But I wanted to
remind people because so many landlords think I just have
to take whatever they hand me. So I want to
emphasize that because people could pop into this message, you know,
in this interview at and E give the point, but
I also want to tell folks, this is a reasonable
accommodation request for the disabled that they're required by law
(16:22):
to consider. Won't tell them what's reasonable, but one thing
that could be unreasonable is a request that poses a
direct threat to their community. So if the animal, for instance,
if the owner happens tomit the animal has a bite history,
and that it walks in with a muzzle on its mouth,
that might lead them to realize and discover information and
communication with that requestion that the animal poses a direct
(16:42):
threat to the community based upon its prior actual history,
and that is something they can also consider because again,
what is reasonable at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yes, and so let's get back to the HOA question.
So for what is demanded of the landlord is also
demanded of the HOA.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Correct, absolutely, And they're some of the worst offenders, you know.
Hoas will often say, Hey, it's in our by laws,
we can do this. You can't have three pets in
your house and you've already got two dogs, and so
we're going to deny this request for a reasonable accommodation for.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
A support animal because you can.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Only have two and this would be three. Well, right there,
this is housing. You know, people who are seeking housing
or housing related assistance, you know, are covered in this
and it doesn't differentiate apartment from HOA and so hoas
are famous for just saying, well, it's in our bylaws. Well,
just because you put something in your bilaws doesn't mean
it's legal. Right, matter of fact, you've a matter of fact,
(17:41):
you've documented your own pattern and practice of disregarding the
Fair Housing Act. So get that out of your bylaws
and stop relying on it incorrectly, because you too can
get sued for a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, you just shot yourself and the you know what,
when you do that, it wouldn't be any different than
putting in your bylaws some kind of restriction on familial
status or sexual orientation, or religion or anything else. So
you know, it's considered the same thing under the law.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Absolutely. There are seven federally protected classes, and in certain
municipalities county states there are additional federally protected classes. But
we do have seven federally protected classes in this legislation,
this Fair Housing Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act
in nineteen eighty eight added two more, and I like
to remind landlords of the seven protected classes plays by
(18:32):
saying this sentence. Residents can now really sue for discrimination
because those federally protected classes are race, color, national origin, religion, sex,
familial status, and disability. Residents can now really do for discrimination.
And HOA owners and or the renters in an HOA
because that owner is renting out their house or their
(18:54):
condo in that regime, you know, all of this is covered.
It's housing where they're laying their heads on. As you know,
they have a right to be able to use and
enjoy their home more like a non disabled person can
if an accommodation, a reasonable accommodation will help them do so.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Absolutely. And you know what we say in the real
estate industry is a side note because this goes for
advertising also, you know, is describe the property because I
come up with I can come up with so many
different ways that could be viewed by any of these
agencies as an infraction. If I say this house is
(19:33):
close to a synagogue or a church, if it's close
to even something is benign as a Chinese restaurant or
something like that, it can be considered that you're, you know,
kind of dog whistling to a certain religion or to
a certain you know, nationality, or whatever it might be.
(19:56):
So you have to be very careful in your advertising too.
So I just wanted to out, oh yeah, correct, yeah,
And it's such an interesting subject. But now let's let's
jump to the difference between fair housing. And this is
interesting to me too in how it's considered. Say, if
you want to take one of these animals on an airplane.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Okay, so jumping to that, now we're talking. You know,
you've got legislation, and then you have that legislation. You know,
you have a regulatory partner who helps you abide by
that legislation, and that regulatory partner also at their regulations.
You know, on top of things is you know how
to navigate the legislation is the regulation right? So with
(20:38):
air travel, you've got the US Apartment of Transportation and
they're working with the Air Carrier Access Act. And this
is where it starts to get much more simple. They're
only dealing with service animals. And again they have the
same definition of dog individually trained to do work or
perform paths for the benefit of an individual with a disability.
And again it could include psycho, physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual,
(21:03):
or other mental disability. UH. And then species other than dogs, emotional,
support animals, comfort animals, all of that are not serviced animals.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
And they're only going to be dealing.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
With service animals on the airplanes unless you're talking about
a pet, and then that's a whole different area. So
they're not dealing with support animals. They're only dealing with
service animals, and the service animal has to be permitted,
and the airlines are going to follow whatever process they
do for you know, for documenting this, and I'm sure
they're just asking those same two questions. But that service
(21:35):
animal must be permitted to accompany the traveler in potentially
in their lap and or under the space in front
of them, under the seat. It can't block space that
has to be unobstructed for safety reasons, So they don't
there's a big dog into the exit row, for instance.
They're not required to upgrade them to a different class
(21:56):
of service to accommodate the service animal. You know, they
can't use to allow the service animal on board because
it makes other people or the flight crew uncomfortable, and
the service animal has to behave properly. Animals that engage
in disruptive behavior are not going to be accepted as
service animals, and true service animals don't behave that way.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
We all know that, Yeah, And I wanted to make
that distinction because, you know, some people that may be
familiar with what you can take on an airplane might
confuse that with well, it's the same thing that applies
to my rental house, and it's not. It's you know,
it's a different set of rules and a different set
of standards.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It is. You're absolutely correct, and I hear people all
the time complain about that. But you have to stop
and think a minute. Are you going to have the
same policies, procedures, practices, rules, guidelines for how you live
in a house versus how you find in an airplane? Right,
you can't. It makes and you're not dealing with the
same regulatory partners. You're not dealing with the same legislation.
You're not dealing with the same regulations, you're not dealing
(22:56):
with the same setting. So it requires differentiation. And it
makes sense when you just just ponder it for five minutes.
And it makes sense right. You know, the HUD doesn't
know anything about the safety of airline practices, so you know,
would they think to say you can't have it in
an area that can't be obstructed like an exit lane,
right so? Or an exitile. So I think this makes
(23:18):
great sense. It just takes us a minute to take
our breath, and you know, be fair about this and
look at it for more than ten seconds. And then
I think all your listeners are bright and they'll get that.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Well, absolutely, And I mean and it also goes to
the point of we wouldn't need all of this regulation.
If people did the right thing to begin with, right
and it so often times they don't, and that's where
these regulations come from. So if you know, if people
would have been fair and accommodating to begin with, then
maybe we wouldn't have all of these different layers of
(23:49):
regulations to peel through.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I don't disagree with you, but in fairness and kindness
and in courtesy, I also want to suggest sometimes people
need to be educated. Does somebody know that an as
Furger's patient might engage in self harming and they can
actually have a dog that is a service animal that
will stop them from hitting themselves in their own heads.
These are some really unique things that you really have
(24:13):
to be interested in to learn about. And you know,
so it's not just fair or gason, it's also educated
and aware. So folks, you know, so credit to your
listeners for listening to this interview and for you for
being interested in doing it place, because we also have
to take the time and opportunity to educate folks.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Well, that's right, and I had to do it myself,
and I'll tell you the truth, Victoria. The first time
I ran across it, I gave the potential renter some misinformation.
I went back and researched it. I ended up calling
them back and I said I was wrong. And from
the discussion that we had, I could even tell that
this mother wasn't quite in tune with what exactly the
(24:51):
law demanded of landlords. And so I said, you know,
whether it's this house you choose or the next one,
here's what I found in my research is wrong with
what I told you in the first place, and I
just wanted to clarify that and do the right thing
and arm you with the correct information to move forward with.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Congratulations, you get good human Cookie Award of the date.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Well, thanks, I was looking for pretty accolades. I was
just you know, to your point of sometimes people are
just uneducated on the subject.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, well, I'm going to give you the accolades anyway.
Good cookie. It goes see you rather because you took
the time to research it. You gave him an answer,
but then you questioned yourself but self awareness. Congratulations, you
did the research. Congratulations, and you called them and admitted
your mistake. Double cookie award there, And then you took
the time to educate her so she could be forewarned
for armed educated and strong in seeking out housing that
(25:44):
helps her son live there and use and enjoy that
home more like a non disabled person can. That is
the whole.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Goal of this.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So yeah, cookie award. Do you don't care if you
don't want it?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Wealth? Well, thanks, Victoria. Well I'll always eat a cookie. Hey,
if we're running out of time here, if there's and
I wanted to make sure I get your contact information
in here, if there's any property managers listening, any businesses
that have the potential to deal with these issues, you know,
anybody that can use your services at all, And you
(26:14):
said they were free. I mean that's fantastic. Go ahead
and tell us how people can reach here.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Sure, thank you. So at pet Screening we're working in
all phases of housing. We really want to help folks
wherever they lay their head on a bed. And I'm
Victoria at Petscreening dot Com and I may or may
not be the team member that will help that particular client,
but I'll refer them internally. I'm the director of Education Outreach,
and I do have my own accounts that I work
as well, and I'll refer them to one of my
(26:39):
sales team partners. Happily again, as Victoria at petscreening dot com.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Victoria, before you go, you know what, we never even
got to the ADA Americans with a Disabilities Act aspect
of all of this. So we're going to do that
on a future show and we'll record a separate segment
dedicated simply to a because there's so much information here
to cover. So I just wanted to point that out
(27:05):
and be listening for a future episode where we'll cover
the American with Disabilities Act and how that affects your
rental house. Victoria, thank you for the fantastic information and
taking the time to educate people on this important subject,
and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. Again, thank you for asking.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That's a lot of information to digest. I hope that
you found it helpful and interesting, and thank you to
Victoria Coward for providing that information. And it's something important
that you have to pay attention to. If you're a landlord,
I'm sure you want to make sure that you not
only do the right thing, but you stay within the law.
That's it for this episode of Your Home three sixty.
(27:45):
You can find this episode in all past episodes online
at ninety four to three WSC dot com. Just go
down to podcasts, click on see all, and then look
for your Home three sixty And of course you can
search for it on your I Heard Radio app. If
you don't have that already, you can download it for free.
It's pretty cool tool. Enjoy the rest of your weekend
(28:06):
and stay safe. I'll talk to you again Monday morning,
starting at six on Charleston's Morning News with Kelly and Blaze.
Thanks for listening to your Home three p sixty
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