August 7, 2024 • 38 mins
Joining us now is a Kiwi soldier who has completed four deployments to Afghanistan. He was part of the unit that responded to the Taliban’s siege of the Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul in 2011. He has been awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Star for his bravery, and now he’s sharing his story in his new book, Serviceman J: The Untold Story of an NZSAS Soldier. Please welcome to the Matt and Jerry Daily Bespoke podcast… Jamie Pennell!
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's scared Bisy.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's the eighth of the eighth and the Year of
Our Lord, twenty twenty four. Welcome all year Bespokey dokies
to the Daily Bespoke Podcast. Now we've got a man
coming into the show today that's going to make you
and me Mashy feel lis manly, I believe, because we've
got Serviceman J coming in. He's a man that had
four deployments to Afghanistan. He's just written a book called
(00:48):
Serviceman J. His name is Jamie. Actually that's why the
serviceman's Jamie Pennell. So could you clean up because I
think Rude is pissed off and he's lift a mess
over there. I think those notes, there are those notes. Yeah, okay,
clean up the real look. This is a real look
behind the curtains.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Mak Okay, Well here he is.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'll bring him in a chick check one two, bitt
already already started. He's got his own bottle brilliant and
give them these bones, all right, A right jump on that, Mike, Yeah,
(01:34):
put those on and good to go. Okay, joining us
now as a Kiwi soldier who's been on four deployments
to Afghanistan, who was part of the unit which responded
to the Teleybands, Intercontinental Hotel Siege and Cabul. In twenty eleven,
he's been awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Staff for bravery
and he's telling his story and his new book Serviceman Jay,
The Untold Story of an insied s a S Soldier.
(01:57):
Please welcome to the Mat and Jerry Show, the Daily
Bespit Podcast. Jamie Pennell coming in.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
No worries man, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
So when you.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Joined the army, this is a question that I always
think about. Did you have combat in mind or was
that just a thing down down the track. I mean,
because there's a lot of reasons to join the army
that aren't combat, you know, personal growth and education and
those kind of things.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Interestingly, at the end of my career, I looked through
my twenty year file and it was you know, about
that burg and weighed about twenty kg's and I thought, oh,
I'll just go all the way back to my initial application.
And the last question they had on the initial application
was what are your aspirations in the army? And I
put to join the essays, Oh, there was a seventeen
and a half, there was seventeen and a half and
(02:42):
you know, you know, I can't remember that far back
about why I put that down, but I think I
knew were living in west Aukland, and we knew they
were out of a hobsinvil when it was especially you know,
that was about that. But I'd always had that aspiration
and that drove me on. So I you know, I
put my application and to join the army at seventeen
and a half and you know, took a couple of
years and pretty much dropped quickly into basic training. And yeah,
(03:05):
that's all she wrote. I mean, yeah, I don't think
you think about combat. You know, you're just joining the
army to serve New Zealand, and it will be revealed
to you. You're only a young man, you don't, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's an interesting thing we have where because my son's
seventeen and he's just deciding what he's going to do
with his life. It's interesting that we make those decisions
at seventeen. I mean, you you're still you're a child.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
You're a baby.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, you're a baby.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah yeah, and so so you initially, so you go
through the basic training, right, and then you move into
other training for the essays.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
So you do your basic training. So I finished my
basic training sort of you know, halfway, oh sorry, end
of ninety ninety four, and then I did my infantry
core training, which is specific for infantrymen. So the basic
basic you know, skill sets to be able to operate
at the basic level. And then yeah, and then you know,
once you've done that, once you've done your core training,
it's green light. You know, you can put your application
(03:58):
in and crack on if you think he can get
it done. You know, I put my I did my
first selection by nineteen ninety six, so the summer selection
at the end of the year. But I you know,
I didn't really prepare myself that well. And that was
because you know, you may or may not have read
it in the book. But we decided to get on
(04:19):
the bears. They're that one night and you don't drink
in the barracks. But we decided to go back to
the barracks. A bunch of us had the radio up
too loud, and and the orderly sergeant and orday corporal
came down and banged on the door, and so you know,
we turned the radio turned the radio off, stayed silent,
you know, thinking it's going.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
To go away.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
You know, babies, you know what I mean, babies. You know,
you think he's going to go away because he's not
going to go in. And so I whispered for the boys,
and I said, let's go out the window at the back.
You know, we'll we're on a second story. We'll just
go down the drain pipe. And so I opened the
window and the orderly corporal was there and he's pointing
up at us, saying, yeah, you know, get out of there,
you know, open the door. So we opened the door.
Put us all on charge. Anyway, long story short, you know,
(05:00):
got charged twenty eight day CB. That means they've got
us under the pump for under control from about five
o'clock in the morning till eleven o'clock at night, you know,
and you're doing a whole lot of you know, random tassie,
you don't really want to do as a young soldier,
but you've got to get cracked. And that was about
you know, it was twenty eight days and I had
a couple of weeks to train for selection. Went on
that first one made it halfway through, which I you know,
I guess is a pretty good effort looking back now,
(05:21):
given I you know, didn't get much training time, and
then you know, came back with a bit of shame
because I was like, you know, man, it is a
bit of a bit of shame, you know, coming back
having put you put your application and gone out there
and done it. Young fellow. You know, everyone's kind of like,
you know, you're too young and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So that was a lever.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Jail's a platform to go back the next year. And
literally I was willing to die for that to get in.
So I always had the mindset to go into the
regiment and that kind of thing. And and yeah, and
that's all she wrote.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, and you must have you must have made some
hardcore brothers at that point, right.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Yeah, one hundred percent. The Yeah, you're just you know
the probably the close this crew are the guys that
go you go through selection with and then you're cyclo training.
You're a real type type group because you yeah, you're
under the microscope and that's quite a significant growth period
for everyone involved. You see everyone, Watson all you see
you see people for who they really are, you know
(06:16):
what I mean. And you know, you socialize and that
kind of thing, and you know, you come to bloze
every now and again. But that's what brothers do, you
know what I mean. So that's the way it is.
And then and then you know, further on from that,
once you start getting introduced to the wider personalities within
the squadrons, then you know, you go out in operations
with those guys and you start, you know, everything just
starts tightening up, you know, across across the regiment and
(06:36):
you have a you know, you look at each other
in the eyes, and you know, you know what you're
what you've been and done, and and yeah, it's hard,
you know, and if we you know, I guess fast
tracking it forward with the transition out, you know, it's
it's quite quite a difficult environment to extract yourself from,
you know, because it's such a hard journey.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So were there were were there guys that you started
with and went sort of right through with?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yep?
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Yeah, per yeah, I mean not everyone, not everyone makes
the grade, you know, like you you'd probably get I
don't know what the metrics are, maybe you know, two
to three percent of whatever the selection numbers are. And
then that then and then you know, you have a
couple of selections a year, you combine those two numbers
together and then that gets trimmed down even further. I
mean our particular course that I did, OL's got trim
(07:21):
right in half and then it just kept getting trimmed down.
So it's you know, it's the top of the top
of the top, you know, it just gets right down
to the cream. And you know, and so it should
be because you know, what you're expected to do is
is you know, highly complex, requires people that know what
they're doing, highly skilled and.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, and so because the Essay is New Zealand Essays
is famous for being one of the most well trained
operations in the world. So how's that specific Essays training
and why is New Zealand's Essays training so so special
and revered?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Well, it has to be.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
I mean we're one of five there's probably a couple
of others that are in the mix now of only
you know, five, six or seven Tier one special forces
in the world. So we've got New Zealand Essays, Australian Essays,
the British Essays, Seal Team six, you know, Delta, Canadian
JTF Tour and Netmix as well and I'm pretty sure
that the Norwegians f SK and MSK are and that
(08:16):
mix too, you and we've operated with them overseas. But yeah,
I mean we're designed to operate nationally, regionally and globally
and we have to be able to deliver a broad
spectrum capability. So that's what makes us special. And you know,
we are modeled on, as is everyone else, the British
(08:36):
Essays model, which was you know, created in nineteen forty
two by David Stirling. And you know, we've got a
long history and yeah, I mean, you know, we don't
have big numbers like the Americans, but it's in direct comparison,
you know, to not comparison, but in direct relation to
the to the population. Yeah, we've got eight million here.
(08:57):
You know, I'm not going to talk about numbers. The
American three hundred and eighty million. You know, they've got
a pulled to drink from. So and what does that mean.
It means that, you know, numbers are enough we can
do what we need to do. But you know in America,
you know, if you go over to Seal Team six
in Delta, they've got you know, a couple of C
seventeens lined up on the runway ready to rock and
roll globally, we don't.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, well, what's it like when you run into those
other guys because you're on the same side obviously, So
is there a camaraderie between the units from other countries
when you run into the British and the Canadians.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
One hundred percent. Culture is exactly the same, man for
man for man, exactly the same. The only difference is
the assets and that kind of thing. But you know,
we are equipped well. Over the years that got better
and better. I came through early on kind of in
the late nineties, and we went you know, I think
at that point we you know, there's a long period
(09:48):
of time between Vietnam and Afghanistan and are kicking off,
so no one well people had forgotten, you know, what
we're all about. And you know, we didn't didn't get
that much money and we didn't have that much equipment.
But it wasn't until we got into Afghanistan again that
we started to operate. And then we had the Americans
come and look at us and other other units just
to see what we're all about. That we started to
(10:11):
solidify the relationship and and you know, demonstrate to the
to the government at the time. I think it was
the labor government that you know, we could you know,
punch pretty hard for our small numbers.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Well, the kit is obviously life and death in it,
and it's important, but also the kit must be pretty cool.
You know when you get when you get your stuff,
you must go this is cool stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's there's a saying equipped the man, don't
man the equipment. So yeah yeah, so yeah, when you
get good stuff, the boys are like, yeah, yeah, we
are so that we got it right.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, Hey, Jamie, who who's the book for? Mate?
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Is that a curiosity because we've read a little bit
of it. We got it in an PDA form, but
it seems to be very much like you don't have
to be a formally see member to read this book.
What are you getting it here?
Speaker 4 (10:58):
No? I mean, initially my target all answers the veterans,
because that was the space that I was and then
thinking about it. But you know, once I started writing
about it, and you know, the story is one part
of it, then we've got lines of the toll it
takes and you know, engagement with others and there's a
whole lot of stuff in there, you know what I mean.
But having worked with you know, I've had the I guess,
the honor and privilege of working with high performance athletes
(11:22):
and teams and corporates and that kind of thing. You know.
While I was writing, I was thinking, actually, you know,
anyone can read this book and take something out of it.
You know, the story is my story, but it's just
a story of being in an environment, you know, a
high performance environment, maybe you know, a stressful environment. It's
just how you how you reading it for yourself. But
(11:43):
I think, you know, with the resounding feedback that I'm
getting back from people from a lot of different sectors
that I've worked on, you know, and the books only
been out for a week, is that it's hitting the mark,
you know, in terms of depth, so that that there
is a massive tick for me. That's exactly what I
do signed the book to do, you know, you know,
wrote the book for it's to have an impact, you know,
(12:05):
not just any old military story. It has to have
some depth, you know, and so I'm really really stoked
about that.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Take it back to your story for it for a
little bit. So, was Afghanistan your first combat deployment?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yep, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I mean, you know, I went to team all but
I was peace keeping pretty good night. I mean, stuff
is going on, but in general, yeah was it?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And how different was it on the ground than what
you know, envisioned heading over there.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
I think I had the right vision in my head.
I new, you know, we get read into it pretty
well in detail, and you know, I'm watching the news
and I know what's happening. And in the early days,
you know, we were out there in the wild West essentially,
so we knew it was going on. And once who
got into country and got the handover from the guys
(12:55):
who had already been there, there was no ambiguity and
I was ready to go. And you know, it's like
you have you been training for a long period of time,
you know, I always say, yeah, you know, if you're
training rugby, you know Tuesdays and Thursdays, you want to
play on Saturday, you know what I mean. And so
when you play on Saturday, you can let the brakes off,
you know. And so when guys go over you know,
I mean we're tracing training thousands and thousands and thousands
(13:17):
of ours, you know, we can week out, day and night,
and all that kind of stuff to be able to
be effective on the batlefield. So you know, as a
young fellow, you know, hasn't been in operations, of course,
you want to see how you go. You want to
see whether or not the training marys up, you know
and holds up against a you know, a well armed,
determined enemy, you know, and that's what they were. So
you know, we had a good team that we're going
(13:38):
to play against that and they were going to test us.
And yeah, it wasn't until we had the first contact
that I that I thought to myself, yep, yeah, no,
it's you know, it's bang on the money.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, it must be real in a way
that other people don't experience reality. And you hear about
people that have been over in the environment that you're over,
and then you know, you come back. You were deployed
four times, but you come back to New Zealand and
you look around, you know, at society and civilian life
and how does that look when you've been over in
a situation like Afghanistan.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, it was pretty hard.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I mean the transition from you know, coming coming from
a high threat environment to a low threatn environment is
quite difficult in terms of integration. And you know I've
said it before, is that I remember one of the trips.
I think I was back within a week, you know,
and you know we've been on call, you know, days,
just days ago, you know what I mean. And so
(14:32):
your brain is back there, so you're registering threat. You
don't have your weapons, you don't have your weapons, you
don't have your mate watching your backs. You are standing
outside camp in the middle of the night. And I
was thinking, Man, am I dreaming? You know what I mean? Like, yeah,
and even when I woke up in the morning, my
mow in bed, you know, still still not quite sure
if I'm here all there. Yeah, there's this there's this
in between space and it's and it is quite difficult
(14:54):
to integrate. So I don't know, to answer your question,
I guess, yeah, it is very, very difficult. And one
of the things I really started dialing on was that
I wouldn't get irritated at big stuff, you know what
I mean, because of the experience that I had trivialities.
He's a really pursed me off, you know what I mean,
Like I can't get my paper down at the dairy
(15:15):
or you know, the monk's not there. I was thinking out.
I'll just be what are you talking about. I'll take
you over there and you'll see how people hauling bloody
you know, water out of rivers and you know kids,
you know, dragging these you know things out of the
river and taking them home. You know two k's down
the track, or they're up on the mountains with their goats,
you know, five six year olds. We have no idea, man,
(15:36):
is the the comparison is just it's night and day,
you know, and not to mention obviously, you know getting
shot at.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So there's people getting offended at the odd word being
a bit wrong here and there when other people have
to go through through all that. When you're over there.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Is the is there the fear a part of it?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Are you comfortable when you're back at camp?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Do you manage how do you manage the fear part
of it?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I I'm just coming from a guy that you know,
I've had nightmares about being at war, and you know,
I imagine myself just lying yeah, barracks going.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, if you're there, you'd probably feel the fear. We don't.
You probably register it in the background unconsciously. I think
you don't really sleep that well. So on the surface,
I don't really feel it. Back behind the curtain, I
probably do. But you know, our training prepares us very
well for these operations. I mean it has to you know,
and and that, and so our training is gets as
(16:35):
as close to reality as possible. The only difference is
now is that you're getting bullets fired back at you,
you know what I mean, and you need to dodge them.
So yeah, in terms of fear, it's kind of it's
it's you know, it's hard to you know, you can't
understand it. It's normal, you know, we just go into it.
Even people, you know, if they got their legs blowing
(16:56):
off and stuff, we trained that, you know. I mean
we've had you know, you know, we make people up
so the you know, their legs are bent backwards and
they look like they've got and ambutator legs. And when
I see that, it's kind of just process, you know,
And we train first date, you know. I mean it's
same with you. We get contacted process. You know, you're
just going through a process and you've done it so
many times that it's just automatic. You're you know exactly
(17:17):
what you have to do. There's no ambiguity, you know,
you know, to go left or go right, and it
just it just is seamless.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, because the thing you hear though, is that when
when a firefight, and obviously you were involved, when you're
involved in your first firefight, that everything train changes and
you know they say the plans go out the window, right,
Is that not the case the plans sometimes?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
No, it's it's you know, yeah, you can plan for
everything to go well, but yeah, you just it just depends.
You know, the ground will will dictate which way you're
going to move, The amount of fire you dictate, well,
will dictate a whole lot of things as well. It's
just as a commander, you know, you have to be
very calm and you need to make the right decisions
to get us out of there, you know what I mean.
(17:59):
Because the first thing is you've got to try and
win the fire fight, you know, gain the initiative, you know,
be dominant in that in that particular battle. And then
if you have to extract yourselves, you know, and I've
seen all that happen before, so kind of yeah, kind
of fifty to fifty with that one. Yeah, plans go out,
but you know, yeah, I think the main one is
you know, you plan, plan for a good, good outcome
as soon as you cross the line, just just be
(18:20):
prepared for some some difference in the plan.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It was decision making, something that came to you, came
to you easily, that was natural for you to be
the person making decisions.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yeah, it was in the in the Intercontinental Hotel, for example,
in the middle of that battle, I found myself in
a quite a deep sense of flow, which I you know,
I never use that terminology back then. I didn't really
know about it until I was in high performance sport.
And you know, I just finished talking to one of
the squadron commanders from the Crossis Response Unit. We'd just
(18:52):
been in quite a significant gun battle in the in
the steelwell. We had helicopter above the hotel engaging terrorist
and we were heading in that direction to clear the roof,
and and and you know, put in the final coodiograph
you're like kind of you know, there was a very
long night. But what I found was I was just
standing there, just completely calm, like lying in bed, watching
(19:17):
top gun, you know what I mean, having a beer,
and I was thinking wow, and it expanded, you know,
my brain, My brain made a visual image of the
of the hotel. It's pitch black in the hotel, you know,
I could only see what was in front of I
had my ivg's on, but I was on a floor,
you know, but I could see everything was Yeah, the
(19:38):
visual picture I was getting was the floors below me.
I knew where the CiU were. I knew they were clearing.
I could see that. I could see our entry point.
I knew there's a dead body in the internet room.
I could see the helicopter. I could hear it. I
could I could see it in my brain circling. I
knew where it was. I knew the terrace sort of
giving away their positions because they're shooting off the roof.
You know, we're getting close to the roof, so that
(19:59):
a lot of that sound was occurring. I knew which
way we needed to go. So, you know, flows an
amazing thing. So I was calm, My mind was wide open,
as you know flow does. And yeah, it made my
decision making very simple. I was one step ahead. And
you know, that's kind of where you want to be
as a commander, because you're you want to get inside
the decision making cycle of your of the threat group.
(20:21):
That you're going up against, which means that you're getting
one step ahead and gaining the initiative and getting after it.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
And was your the rest of your crew and flow
as well.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, I know I haven't asked them, but they were.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Listening to what you were putting down.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
One of them would have been would have been a
different state of mind I mentioned hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
I can't speak for everyone, but you know, the boys
being boys, you know, if you said were scared of it,
and no, no.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
But I'll tell you what.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Yeah, there's that that particular night and a couple of
other operations we did. You know, it's not great. It's
not great being in a steelwell, you know, getting fired
from an elevated position with grenades being rained down on
your head, you know what I mean. And so yeah,
you've got to keep you've got to keep level headed.
And people people kind of wouldn't be able to understand,
you know what what that means, and you know they'd
(21:11):
probably just be running for the for the you know,
for the car park. But for us, it's like we've
got to get this guy. You know, Yes, you're going
to be some damage.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
It's literally life and death.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah, and and and you know it it draws usin. Yeah,
you know what I mean, they like that it's drawing
a scene. I mean that particular event, you know, we
had an number of hotel guests is one hundred and
fifty rooms. So you know, let's just be low, low number,
one hundred and fifty people. But what if there's you know,
two people in each room, you know, three hundred you know,
(21:42):
and so you're doing with number big numbers, and you
know what these guys were going to do, We're you know,
we were intercepting comms, is that they're going to pull
them out of the rooms and throw them off the
top of the building. You know, there was there was
phase two of their plan, I guess. So we had
to get them in front of us as quickly as possible.
And that was a whole there was a whole intent
at that particular point in time until we until we
(22:04):
grabbed a hole of the roof and clear it of
these guys. So it didn't stop there, you know, I mean,
that was that was a long night and I know
a lot of people focusing on that, but yeah, ten hours,
you know a bit of a heartbeat, you know, it
felt like a minute, you know, once you walked down like, well,
looked at my watch man, been in there ten hours,
you know, just and again, you know, when you're in
when you're being challenged significantly or your life's on the line,
(22:26):
then you know your full focus is on what needs
to happen next, and you know, pray for a good outcome.
But yeah, chaos, chaos, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And it must because I mean most people have never
tested like that, never experienced those heights. So once you've
been tested like that, you're in a situation like that,
and it's over and things calm down. I mean, the
feeling isn't a feeling of an elation at that point.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
On operations, Well, I'll go back. I remember standing on
the roof and one of the boys said, I think
that's one of the biggest things that the regiments have
ever been involved in. And I was thinking, you reckon,
and he goes, yeah, think about it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
But I was too busy. I was too busy.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Doing my job, you know, like I was still talking
back to headquarters. I was giving them a brief. It
wasn't over, you know. We started to take rounds on
the roof and stuff like that. But yeah, and then
you know, once you get back and do the debriefs
and you know, have a feed and a bit of
a sleep and that type of thing, you're reorientating onto
another job. You know, it's not like we had the
week off. You know, the boss is like, take the
next couple of weeks off. Boys. You know there's a
(23:29):
big job. We had a job to get after in
three days. You know, it was already lined up. These
things just happened. You know, we're not we're prepared for them,
but they just happen. So you just got to drop
tools and get after it. So we're still had a
job to d side, just refocused on that job. And
then once we did that job, you know, something else
comes up, refolks, So you don't really have time. You know,
you're always distracted and getting onto the next thing. But
(23:51):
you know, you know, once I got back to New Zealand,
it still didn't really hit me. And then you know,
I got pulled into the CEO's office and he said,
here's a letter for you, and then opened it up
and it was how you've been awarded the New Zealand
Country stuff for your efforts. And I said, really said yes,
and I said why and yeah, and then obviously it
(24:16):
started to become a reality pace.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
You're in such a sense of flow that you had
an idea that you were achieving at a level that
deserved a metal Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I mean, yeah, who knows, you know, like, I'm not
too sure how it would have panned out with a
different team. Maybe they've done better, maybe they're done worse.
It just it just depends. I mean, that particular operation
was a really high end test of who we were
as individuals. And not only that, I really tested our
you know, the way we did our business, and all
(24:47):
of that is great feedback coming back, you know, about
how we need to operate in the future. So we
definitely as a regiment gained a lot of information out
of that that will bode well for the future.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
My granddad came back from World War Two and he
had been an important man over there, and then he
moved back to in Chicago where he was working in
a dairy and he never really came back from that.
That the transition from being important and involved in important
things with clear, clear objectives to.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Well, working in a dairy in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So what is that once your career ends and you
come home, the becoming a person and you're not with
your mates every you know, your brothers every night. You know,
you don't have clear orders coming up and that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
When you leave. Yeah, yeah, the transition is very difficult,
and you'll always lean on what's comfortable. And so what's
comfortable is staying in that routine, you know, and the
routine is, well, the routines. There's no real routine, but
kind of a generic routine that you make for yourself
is you know, get up in the morning, train for
an hour and a half, make sure you're operationally fit.
(25:57):
And then I was getting on with made sure I
sort of had something a purpose. So I was doing
my master's studies. I had a year left of those.
I was you know, getting after renovating the house and
that type of thing. But it was, you know, but
then I was. But then I was things like, oh,
you know, I'll keep it. I'll keep doing Brazilian jiu jitsu.
(26:17):
Combat mindset, I'll keep I know, I'll do I'll i'll
buy a pistol in a rifle when I'll join a
gun club, you know what I mean. Combat mindset. And
then so I just pick up on that, you know,
I was trying to just stay in it and that
type of thing. And so I started to become more
aware after I left because I had time to do that,
(26:40):
and then I was able to sort of break things
down and attack them one at a time. So, you know,
by by thirty five, I reckon that. You know, your
character traits are pretty much well established, and then you
know that's who you are or who you think you are,
you know, and so at thirty five, you know, my
character were aligned with you know, surviving on the battlefield,
(27:03):
and so I had a lot to get through. So
I had to just do some self realization. I had
become very acutely self aware and I had to Yeah,
and it was always in the moment too, about how
I was engaging with others, because you know, obviously that's
what happens. You know, the way you engage with others
and how you do it is essential, you know, particularly
(27:23):
the people that.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Are close to you.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
So I had to make the necessary adjustments. You know,
got a bit of help on the side there, but
at the end of the day, you have to do it.
You know, it's you. You want to get big biceps,
you go to the gym and do armkills. If you
want to change your character, then you have to do
the deep the deep thinking and make those adjustments. The
information is all there, it's just up to you apply it.
(27:46):
And I think a lot of people don't do that.
They you know, just think, yep, this is just me.
You know, you think something, you feel something, and then
you project it without a filter, you know what I mean.
In that's emotion and so we unless we have control
over it, then you're kind of sitting in the passenger
seat of the bus. So yeah, and basically it was
a mentality I sort of had. I was thinking, yep,
(28:08):
I'm sitting in the bus. I want to be the driver,
take full control. And that took a significant period of time.
But I'm at a place now where you know, even
now I can track, you know, how I'm thinking and
feeling about things anytime I'm talking to people where you
know I'm in a leadership is a strategic leadership position
at the moment, and you know, you have bold conversations
with people and you know it might get a little
(28:30):
bit heated. But I don't let people draw me in.
Well I choose or I don't you know that that's
my that's my prerogative, and I think that's a massive
game changer for anyone to do well in life and have,
you know, eternal peace. You know, if you allow someone
to hold your hand and anger and then take you
down the garden path and make you as angry as possible,
then that's your problem, you know what I mean, not theirs.
(28:51):
So it's up to you what you decide to engage
with or you don't. You know, you have the decision.
That's just making sure you know what the tools are,
you're willing to do the work day in, day out,
and it will get there, you know. Neural pathway rerouting
if you like to call that, and printing. We all
neural pathways which you know link to you how you
think and feel about things. Takes a bit of time.
(29:12):
I started seeing stuff happening within six weeks because I
made the deliberate effort to do that kind of stuff.
So sorry of it there.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Oh no, That's what I'm about.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like I've been talking a little bit about this kind
of stuff lately, the idea that you don't necessarily know
when you're younger, that you actually have a choice about
how you're You know, someone can fire you up and
you have choice when you when you're younger, you think
I'm angry. I'm angry now, but you do actually have
a choice to go you know, you know, you have
the quality of your thoughts is all you've got, really,
and the choices that you can make. When did you
(29:45):
realize that what you've learned and your experience in life
you could share with other people and help other people
as you do now.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I kind of just went into that space. One of
the things I decided to do was, you know, in general,
what military people do, you know, which makes sense, right?
They go into a lateral position in the civilian sector,
and so a lot of the boys were doing private
security work and Afghanistan, right, But you're not really moving away,
(30:16):
you're going from one military to the next. And so
I made a conscious effort that as part of my development,
to move into something that had nothing to do with
the military. So I got a call from a friend
of mine, Roger Mortimer, who said, the Kiwi Rugby League
team twenty seventeen was I want someone to come in
and just do some leadership development and culture and you know,
(30:40):
do you want to do it? So I said yeah,
and he said okay, cool, let's let's go, and you've
got to say yes, say you know what I mean,
his opportunities come around, you know, they'll be scared. So
I went in front of David Kidwell Scott City. We
had a bit of a discussion. He was happy, he said,
let's just crack on and yeah. And so that was
the beginning of where I started believing that I had
(31:04):
stuff that was useful to others. You know. I started
talking to you know, Simon men Ring and Sean Johnson
and you know, Russell Packer and you know all there
are Jared Why we were hard Grays and Yail, those
hard menuals good. It was good fun, you know, I mean,
but I listened to us saying okay, cool, you know,
sort of took away the mystery of that they went
to the warriors, and then Olympic athletes and then corporates,
(31:24):
and then I went on and on and on, and
you know, yeah, and so you know, because you think
that what you know, everyone knows, yeah, you know, until
you get out there and people are like, oh, well,
you know, you know, it's pretty simple stuff, you know,
and that, but not everyone knows it because they don't
get deliberate leadership development or the Army is very good
(31:44):
at deliberate development across a whole lot of skill sets,
in particular leadership. You know, leadership courses are very significant
and involved, you know, like our junior and c is
go through a three month process and then you've got mentors,
you know, I mean that are there good mentors? You
know that that you up and it just goes on
and on. But yeah, and then and then, and then
(32:05):
obviously people were saying to me, hey, I think you
should write a book, you know, and and I was thinking, why,
why should because you've got a story to tell. Yeah,
And I kind of didn't believe them. But yeah, it
wasn't until Steve Askin was killed in a helicopter crash.
He's a lead pilot and on the Porthill Fires in
(32:25):
twenty fifteen. The monsoon bucket wrapped around the tail raider
and he went in. But you know, it was always
going to be something that was outside of his control,
unfortunately for Steve, because he's a very switched on character
and he would have beenble to control everything else. But anyway,
he died as old man approached me and said, hey,
can you write something up about Steve is the man
(32:46):
that was in the regiment, and you know, just just
so those kids have a reference. And then you know symbolism.
People said enough, you see it, enough, you hear it, enough,
do something about it. So I started writing stuff down,
and you know, one thing led to another, and then
suddenly I've you know, started to put my brain down
on paper. And then then I'm thinking about the threads,
(33:09):
and then I'm thinking and then I was, you know,
talking to people outside that we're having problems, and I
was thinking, actually, this still probably land with a few people,
and then yeah, and here we are.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Well the thing is because of what your your story,
then people will listen because it's not something that other
people experience. And it puts you in a position of
authority because you know, you've experienced, as we're saying, for
firefights and that that nice extreme part of it. So
you know, you may be a rugby league superstar, but
you haven't experienced that level of intensity, you know what
(33:40):
I mean. So it gives you a position of authority
to talk to people in a way you know.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting a because you know, once
I was in professional sports, so I could see the
differences obviously we in terms of patriotism, we hold our
sports teams up in high regard and so we should,
but that the same can't be said for our military,
you know what I mean, You know, I don't think so,
which is a shame. But yeah, the the the you know,
(34:07):
with sports, sports stars, you know, they high performance sports people.
You know, they they have to perform well, they get
to perform under the best conditions, you know, ess they
get to perform at a high level in the worst conditions,
sleep deprived, food deprived, you know what I mean, injured,
possibly out there under the pump all the time. You know. Yeah,
(34:27):
it's yeah, it's just as a totally different mindset. And
there's the reason why we have such a tough selection
process and the reason why we have such a small
percentage of people that can actually pass through it because
it takes a very unique human being. And I'm speaking
for all special forces around the world that need to
go into that space and hold the line. And you know,
(34:48):
it'll be probably I don't know, zero point zero one
percent of the entire global population that get to go
into that space, where you know, sports stars maybe not
so much. So yeah, no, no disrespect to to sports,
but the starts or anything like that. It's just you know,
making comparisons.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So yeah, well, writing a book about it so people
can read that story and see what it is, we'll
obviously help with that. Well, Hey, thank you so much
for coming in and talking to us today, Serviceman Jay.
The untold story of an insured s AS soldier is
out right now, and yeah, find it and read it,
(35:24):
and thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
It was a great hearing his story.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
Yeah, you know, always appreciate the opportunity as always. And yeah, good,
good discussion.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
All right, cheers, mate, cheers, thank you, and we're back.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
What a great man he was, a serviceman Jay, Jamie Pennell.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
I've got to listen to him for for hours.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah, good chat.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Ah, Yeah, you never know, you didn't even know what questions,
how deep you want to go into the situation, you know,
around stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
But yeah, got a good man one nice chat.
Speaker 5 (35:51):
I mean credits you as well. We knew nothing about
that guy coming into this if for being honest, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
They failed to siness any information. Rudis said it the
last minute. We've got this guy coming in and you
feel a little bit intimidated with a you know, Z
says commander coming in who's won a medal for gallantry.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
On the spot.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
And then just but he's a good talker and a
good man. And I humiliatingly gave him a copy of
my book because thought would probably have similar things. And
I imagine he'll be reading my book going, well, this guy
is talking about how he got into a first fight
because he got grumpy when he was playing guitar for
Tim Fin And then you know, like.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Like the level of intensity of to be to be
that guy.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Yeah, but similar themes, wasn't It might be just different,
but the themes also like, you know, a different breed
fest of all to be someone like that, right, Yeah,
but I even know. I mean I've only been in
radio for like four years, but he was the only
person ever to pick up the headphones and make sure
that they're left and the right side.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
That's a really good thing to notice.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
When he came in, he was like on left, you're right. Yeah,
so that goes on. I'll sit down here getting.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
The basics right before he went into combat of talking
to us.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to note, is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
But what a good man he was and you should
buy that book and give him a taste a kiwi.
And that's the Daily Bespoke podcast. You seem busy, so
we'll let you go. Bless bless bliss. All right, okay,
then all right you're right manh yeah, you show that
one up your ass, Meshy. Jesus Christ mate yack. Highlight
podcast out as well, by the way, Oh yeah, you're
the Highlights podcast. That's pretty good. It's not the bloody
going into battle and the bull international though.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Was that?
Speaker 5 (37:22):
It puts your life into a harsh perspective, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
When you talk to someone like that, You go, what
was a decent that's been cut down to sixty minutes
of some pretty quality broadcasting. But it's not a firefighter,
isn't it?
Speaker 5 (37:33):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
It wasn't a bloody. We weren't hiding behind the disc
in a flow state fighting for a fucking lives.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Meshy. You don't think of that important. You're just a radio.
Speaker 5 (37:42):
Host someone by the way telling you how they got
shot at and then they laughed very loudly.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
It's quite an uncomfortable position.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
To be in because you're kind of looking around the
wad go I don't know if I can laugh at it.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
All right, then okay, shove that up your ass.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Hello, I'm Matt Heath.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
You have been listening to the Matt and Jerry Daily
Bespoke podcast. Right now you can listen to our Radio
Highlights podcast, which you will absolutely get.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Barred up about anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Sit to download, like, subscribe, write, review all those great things.
It really helps myself and Jerry and to a lesser extent,
Mesh and Ruder.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
If you want to.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Discuss anything raised in this pod, check out the Conclave,
a Matt and Jerry Facebook discussion group. And while I'm
plugging stuff, my book, A Lifeless Punishing Thirteen Ways to
Love the Life.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
You've Got is out now get it wherever you get
your books, or just google the bastard.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Anyway you seem busy, I'll let you go.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Bless Blessed, blessed. Give them a taste of keyw from me,
It's scared Bisy.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's the eighth of the eighth and the Year of
Our Lord, twenty twenty four. Welcome all year Bespokey dokies
to the Daily Bespoke Podcast. Now we've got a man
coming into the show today that's going to make you
and me Mashy feel lis manly, I believe, because we've
got Serviceman J coming in. He's a man that had
four deployments to Afghanistan. He's just written a book called
(00:48):
Serviceman J. His name is Jamie. Actually that's why the
serviceman's Jamie Pennell. So could you clean up because I
think Rude is pissed off and he's lift a mess
over there. I think those notes, there are those notes. Yeah, okay,
clean up the real look. This is a real look
behind the curtains.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Mak Okay, Well here he is.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'll bring him in a chick check one two, bitt
already already started. He's got his own bottle brilliant and
give them these bones, all right, A right jump on that, Mike, Yeah,
(01:34):
put those on and good to go. Okay, joining us
now as a Kiwi soldier who's been on four deployments
to Afghanistan, who was part of the unit which responded
to the Teleybands, Intercontinental Hotel Siege and Cabul. In twenty eleven,
he's been awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Staff for bravery
and he's telling his story and his new book Serviceman Jay,
The Untold Story of an insied s a S Soldier.
(01:57):
Please welcome to the Mat and Jerry Show, the Daily
Bespit Podcast. Jamie Pennell coming in.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
No worries man, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
So when you.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Joined the army, this is a question that I always
think about. Did you have combat in mind or was
that just a thing down down the track. I mean,
because there's a lot of reasons to join the army
that aren't combat, you know, personal growth and education and
those kind of things.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Interestingly, at the end of my career, I looked through
my twenty year file and it was you know, about
that burg and weighed about twenty kg's and I thought, oh,
I'll just go all the way back to my initial application.
And the last question they had on the initial application
was what are your aspirations in the army? And I
put to join the essays, Oh, there was a seventeen
and a half, there was seventeen and a half and
(02:42):
you know, you know, I can't remember that far back
about why I put that down, but I think I
knew were living in west Aukland, and we knew they
were out of a hobsinvil when it was especially you know,
that was about that. But I'd always had that aspiration
and that drove me on. So I you know, I
put my application and to join the army at seventeen
and a half and you know, took a couple of
years and pretty much dropped quickly into basic training. And yeah,
(03:05):
that's all she wrote. I mean, yeah, I don't think
you think about combat. You know, you're just joining the
army to serve New Zealand, and it will be revealed
to you. You're only a young man, you don't, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's an interesting thing we have where because my son's
seventeen and he's just deciding what he's going to do
with his life. It's interesting that we make those decisions
at seventeen. I mean, you you're still you're a child.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
You're a baby.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, you're a baby.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah yeah, and so so you initially, so you go
through the basic training, right, and then you move into
other training for the essays.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
So you do your basic training. So I finished my
basic training sort of you know, halfway, oh sorry, end
of ninety ninety four, and then I did my infantry
core training, which is specific for infantrymen. So the basic
basic you know, skill sets to be able to operate
at the basic level. And then yeah, and then you know,
once you've done that, once you've done your core training,
it's green light. You know, you can put your application
(03:58):
in and crack on if you think he can get
it done. You know, I put my I did my
first selection by nineteen ninety six, so the summer selection
at the end of the year. But I you know,
I didn't really prepare myself that well. And that was
because you know, you may or may not have read
it in the book. But we decided to get on
(04:19):
the bears. They're that one night and you don't drink
in the barracks. But we decided to go back to
the barracks. A bunch of us had the radio up
too loud, and and the orderly sergeant and orday corporal
came down and banged on the door, and so you know,
we turned the radio turned the radio off, stayed silent,
you know, thinking it's going.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
To go away.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
You know, babies, you know what I mean, babies. You know,
you think he's going to go away because he's not
going to go in. And so I whispered for the boys,
and I said, let's go out the window at the back.
You know, we'll we're on a second story. We'll just
go down the drain pipe. And so I opened the
window and the orderly corporal was there and he's pointing
up at us, saying, yeah, you know, get out of there,
you know, open the door. So we opened the door.
Put us all on charge. Anyway, long story short, you know,
(05:00):
got charged twenty eight day CB. That means they've got
us under the pump for under control from about five
o'clock in the morning till eleven o'clock at night, you know,
and you're doing a whole lot of you know, random tassie,
you don't really want to do as a young soldier,
but you've got to get cracked. And that was about
you know, it was twenty eight days and I had
a couple of weeks to train for selection. Went on
that first one made it halfway through, which I you know,
I guess is a pretty good effort looking back now,
(05:21):
given I you know, didn't get much training time, and
then you know, came back with a bit of shame
because I was like, you know, man, it is a
bit of a bit of shame, you know, coming back
having put you put your application and gone out there
and done it. Young fellow. You know, everyone's kind of like,
you know, you're too young and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So that was a lever.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Jail's a platform to go back the next year. And
literally I was willing to die for that to get in.
So I always had the mindset to go into the
regiment and that kind of thing. And and yeah, and
that's all she wrote.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, and you must have you must have made some
hardcore brothers at that point, right.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Yeah, one hundred percent. The Yeah, you're just you know
the probably the close this crew are the guys that
go you go through selection with and then you're cyclo training.
You're a real type type group because you yeah, you're
under the microscope and that's quite a significant growth period
for everyone involved. You see everyone, Watson all you see
you see people for who they really are, you know
(06:16):
what I mean. And you know, you socialize and that
kind of thing, and you know, you come to bloze
every now and again. But that's what brothers do, you
know what I mean. So that's the way it is.
And then and then you know, further on from that,
once you start getting introduced to the wider personalities within
the squadrons, then you know, you go out in operations
with those guys and you start, you know, everything just
starts tightening up, you know, across across the regiment and
(06:36):
you have a you know, you look at each other
in the eyes, and you know, you know what you're
what you've been and done, and and yeah, it's hard,
you know, and if we you know, I guess fast
tracking it forward with the transition out, you know, it's
it's quite quite a difficult environment to extract yourself from,
you know, because it's such a hard journey.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So were there were were there guys that you started
with and went sort of right through with?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yep?
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Yeah, per yeah, I mean not everyone, not everyone makes
the grade, you know, like you you'd probably get I
don't know what the metrics are, maybe you know, two
to three percent of whatever the selection numbers are. And
then that then and then you know, you have a
couple of selections a year, you combine those two numbers
together and then that gets trimmed down even further. I
mean our particular course that I did, OL's got trim
(07:21):
right in half and then it just kept getting trimmed down.
So it's you know, it's the top of the top
of the top, you know, it just gets right down
to the cream. And you know, and so it should
be because you know, what you're expected to do is
is you know, highly complex, requires people that know what
they're doing, highly skilled and.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, and so because the Essay is New Zealand Essays
is famous for being one of the most well trained
operations in the world. So how's that specific Essays training
and why is New Zealand's Essays training so so special
and revered?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Well, it has to be.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
I mean we're one of five there's probably a couple
of others that are in the mix now of only
you know, five, six or seven Tier one special forces
in the world. So we've got New Zealand Essays, Australian Essays,
the British Essays, Seal Team six, you know, Delta, Canadian
JTF Tour and Netmix as well and I'm pretty sure
that the Norwegians f SK and MSK are and that
(08:16):
mix too, you and we've operated with them overseas. But yeah,
I mean we're designed to operate nationally, regionally and globally
and we have to be able to deliver a broad
spectrum capability. So that's what makes us special. And you know,
we are modeled on, as is everyone else, the British
(08:36):
Essays model, which was you know, created in nineteen forty
two by David Stirling. And you know, we've got a
long history and yeah, I mean, you know, we don't
have big numbers like the Americans, but it's in direct comparison,
you know, to not comparison, but in direct relation to
the to the population. Yeah, we've got eight million here.
(08:57):
You know, I'm not going to talk about numbers. The
American three hundred and eighty million. You know, they've got
a pulled to drink from. So and what does that mean.
It means that, you know, numbers are enough we can
do what we need to do. But you know in America,
you know, if you go over to Seal Team six
in Delta, they've got you know, a couple of C
seventeens lined up on the runway ready to rock and
roll globally, we don't.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, well, what's it like when you run into those
other guys because you're on the same side obviously, So
is there a camaraderie between the units from other countries
when you run into the British and the Canadians.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
One hundred percent. Culture is exactly the same, man for
man for man, exactly the same. The only difference is
the assets and that kind of thing. But you know,
we are equipped well. Over the years that got better
and better. I came through early on kind of in
the late nineties, and we went you know, I think
at that point we you know, there's a long period
(09:48):
of time between Vietnam and Afghanistan and are kicking off,
so no one well people had forgotten, you know, what
we're all about. And you know, we didn't didn't get
that much money and we didn't have that much equipment.
But it wasn't until we got into Afghanistan again that
we started to operate. And then we had the Americans
come and look at us and other other units just
to see what we're all about. That we started to
(10:11):
solidify the relationship and and you know, demonstrate to the
to the government at the time. I think it was
the labor government that you know, we could you know,
punch pretty hard for our small numbers.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Well, the kit is obviously life and death in it,
and it's important, but also the kit must be pretty cool.
You know when you get when you get your stuff,
you must go this is cool stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's there's a saying equipped the man, don't
man the equipment. So yeah yeah, so yeah, when you
get good stuff, the boys are like, yeah, yeah, we
are so that we got it right.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, Hey, Jamie, who who's the book for? Mate?
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Is that a curiosity because we've read a little bit
of it. We got it in an PDA form, but
it seems to be very much like you don't have
to be a formally see member to read this book.
What are you getting it here?
Speaker 4 (10:58):
No? I mean, initially my target all answers the veterans,
because that was the space that I was and then
thinking about it. But you know, once I started writing
about it, and you know, the story is one part
of it, then we've got lines of the toll it
takes and you know, engagement with others and there's a
whole lot of stuff in there, you know what I mean.
But having worked with you know, I've had the I guess,
the honor and privilege of working with high performance athletes
(11:22):
and teams and corporates and that kind of thing. You know.
While I was writing, I was thinking, actually, you know,
anyone can read this book and take something out of it.
You know, the story is my story, but it's just
a story of being in an environment, you know, a
high performance environment, maybe you know, a stressful environment. It's
just how you how you reading it for yourself. But
(11:43):
I think, you know, with the resounding feedback that I'm
getting back from people from a lot of different sectors
that I've worked on, you know, and the books only
been out for a week, is that it's hitting the mark,
you know, in terms of depth, so that that there
is a massive tick for me. That's exactly what I
do signed the book to do, you know, you know,
wrote the book for it's to have an impact, you know,
(12:05):
not just any old military story. It has to have
some depth, you know, and so I'm really really stoked
about that.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Take it back to your story for it for a
little bit. So, was Afghanistan your first combat deployment?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yep, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I mean, you know, I went to team all but
I was peace keeping pretty good night. I mean, stuff
is going on, but in general, yeah was it?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And how different was it on the ground than what
you know, envisioned heading over there.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
I think I had the right vision in my head.
I new, you know, we get read into it pretty
well in detail, and you know, I'm watching the news
and I know what's happening. And in the early days,
you know, we were out there in the wild West essentially,
so we knew it was going on. And once who
got into country and got the handover from the guys
(12:55):
who had already been there, there was no ambiguity and
I was ready to go. And you know, it's like
you have you been training for a long period of time,
you know, I always say, yeah, you know, if you're
training rugby, you know Tuesdays and Thursdays, you want to
play on Saturday, you know what I mean. And so
when you play on Saturday, you can let the brakes off,
you know. And so when guys go over you know,
I mean we're tracing training thousands and thousands and thousands
(13:17):
of ours, you know, we can week out, day and night,
and all that kind of stuff to be able to
be effective on the batlefield. So you know, as a
young fellow, you know, hasn't been in operations, of course,
you want to see how you go. You want to
see whether or not the training marys up, you know
and holds up against a you know, a well armed,
determined enemy, you know, and that's what they were. So
you know, we had a good team that we're going
(13:38):
to play against that and they were going to test us.
And yeah, it wasn't until we had the first contact
that I that I thought to myself, yep, yeah, no,
it's you know, it's bang on the money.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, it must be real in a way
that other people don't experience reality. And you hear about
people that have been over in the environment that you're over,
and then you know, you come back. You were deployed
four times, but you come back to New Zealand and
you look around, you know, at society and civilian life
and how does that look when you've been over in
a situation like Afghanistan.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, it was pretty hard.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I mean the transition from you know, coming coming from
a high threat environment to a low threatn environment is
quite difficult in terms of integration. And you know I've
said it before, is that I remember one of the trips.
I think I was back within a week, you know,
and you know we've been on call, you know, days,
just days ago, you know what I mean. And so
(14:32):
your brain is back there, so you're registering threat. You
don't have your weapons, you don't have your weapons, you
don't have your mate watching your backs. You are standing
outside camp in the middle of the night. And I
was thinking, Man, am I dreaming? You know what I mean? Like, yeah,
and even when I woke up in the morning, my
mow in bed, you know, still still not quite sure
if I'm here all there. Yeah, there's this there's this
in between space and it's and it is quite difficult
(14:54):
to integrate. So I don't know, to answer your question,
I guess, yeah, it is very, very difficult. And one
of the things I really started dialing on was that
I wouldn't get irritated at big stuff, you know what
I mean, because of the experience that I had trivialities.
He's a really pursed me off, you know what I mean,
Like I can't get my paper down at the dairy
(15:15):
or you know, the monk's not there. I was thinking out.
I'll just be what are you talking about. I'll take
you over there and you'll see how people hauling bloody
you know, water out of rivers and you know kids,
you know, dragging these you know things out of the
river and taking them home. You know two k's down
the track, or they're up on the mountains with their goats,
you know, five six year olds. We have no idea, man,
(15:36):
is the the comparison is just it's night and day,
you know, and not to mention obviously, you know getting
shot at.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So there's people getting offended at the odd word being
a bit wrong here and there when other people have
to go through through all that. When you're over there.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Is the is there the fear a part of it?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Are you comfortable when you're back at camp?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Do you manage how do you manage the fear part
of it?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I I'm just coming from a guy that you know,
I've had nightmares about being at war, and you know,
I imagine myself just lying yeah, barracks going.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, if you're there, you'd probably feel the fear. We don't.
You probably register it in the background unconsciously. I think
you don't really sleep that well. So on the surface,
I don't really feel it. Back behind the curtain, I
probably do. But you know, our training prepares us very
well for these operations. I mean it has to you know,
and and that, and so our training is gets as
(16:35):
as close to reality as possible. The only difference is
now is that you're getting bullets fired back at you,
you know what I mean, and you need to dodge them.
So yeah, in terms of fear, it's kind of it's
it's you know, it's hard to you know, you can't
understand it. It's normal, you know, we just go into it.
Even people, you know, if they got their legs blowing
(16:56):
off and stuff, we trained that, you know. I mean
we've had you know, you know, we make people up
so the you know, their legs are bent backwards and
they look like they've got and ambutator legs. And when
I see that, it's kind of just process, you know,
And we train first date, you know. I mean it's
same with you. We get contacted process. You know, you're
just going through a process and you've done it so
many times that it's just automatic. You're you know exactly
(17:17):
what you have to do. There's no ambiguity, you know,
you know, to go left or go right, and it
just it just is seamless.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, because the thing you hear though, is that when
when a firefight, and obviously you were involved, when you're
involved in your first firefight, that everything train changes and
you know they say the plans go out the window, right,
Is that not the case the plans sometimes?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
No, it's it's you know, yeah, you can plan for
everything to go well, but yeah, you just it just depends.
You know, the ground will will dictate which way you're
going to move, The amount of fire you dictate, well,
will dictate a whole lot of things as well. It's
just as a commander, you know, you have to be
very calm and you need to make the right decisions
to get us out of there, you know what I mean.
(17:59):
Because the first thing is you've got to try and
win the fire fight, you know, gain the initiative, you know,
be dominant in that in that particular battle. And then
if you have to extract yourselves, you know, and I've
seen all that happen before, so kind of yeah, kind
of fifty to fifty with that one. Yeah, plans go out,
but you know, yeah, I think the main one is
you know, you plan, plan for a good, good outcome
as soon as you cross the line, just just be
(18:20):
prepared for some some difference in the plan.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It was decision making, something that came to you, came
to you easily, that was natural for you to be
the person making decisions.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yeah, it was in the in the Intercontinental Hotel, for example,
in the middle of that battle, I found myself in
a quite a deep sense of flow, which I you know,
I never use that terminology back then. I didn't really
know about it until I was in high performance sport.
And you know, I just finished talking to one of
the squadron commanders from the Crossis Response Unit. We'd just
(18:52):
been in quite a significant gun battle in the in
the steelwell. We had helicopter above the hotel engaging terrorist
and we were heading in that direction to clear the roof,
and and and you know, put in the final coodiograph
you're like kind of you know, there was a very
long night. But what I found was I was just
standing there, just completely calm, like lying in bed, watching
(19:17):
top gun, you know what I mean, having a beer,
and I was thinking wow, and it expanded, you know,
my brain, My brain made a visual image of the
of the hotel. It's pitch black in the hotel, you know,
I could only see what was in front of I
had my ivg's on, but I was on a floor,
you know, but I could see everything was Yeah, the
(19:38):
visual picture I was getting was the floors below me.
I knew where the CiU were. I knew they were clearing.
I could see that. I could see our entry point.
I knew there's a dead body in the internet room.
I could see the helicopter. I could hear it. I
could I could see it in my brain circling. I
knew where it was. I knew the terrace sort of
giving away their positions because they're shooting off the roof.
You know, we're getting close to the roof, so that
(19:59):
a lot of that sound was occurring. I knew which
way we needed to go. So, you know, flows an
amazing thing. So I was calm, My mind was wide open,
as you know flow does. And yeah, it made my
decision making very simple. I was one step ahead. And
you know, that's kind of where you want to be
as a commander, because you're you want to get inside
the decision making cycle of your of the threat group.
(20:21):
That you're going up against, which means that you're getting
one step ahead and gaining the initiative and getting after it.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
And was your the rest of your crew and flow
as well.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, I know I haven't asked them, but they were.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Listening to what you were putting down.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
One of them would have been would have been a
different state of mind I mentioned hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
I can't speak for everyone, but you know, the boys
being boys, you know, if you said were scared of it,
and no, no.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
But I'll tell you what.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Yeah, there's that that particular night and a couple of
other operations we did. You know, it's not great. It's
not great being in a steelwell, you know, getting fired
from an elevated position with grenades being rained down on
your head, you know what I mean. And so yeah,
you've got to keep you've got to keep level headed.
And people people kind of wouldn't be able to understand,
you know what what that means, and you know they'd
(21:11):
probably just be running for the for the you know,
for the car park. But for us, it's like we've
got to get this guy. You know, Yes, you're going
to be some damage.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
It's literally life and death.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah, and and and you know it it draws usin. Yeah,
you know what I mean, they like that it's drawing
a scene. I mean that particular event, you know, we
had an number of hotel guests is one hundred and
fifty rooms. So you know, let's just be low, low number,
one hundred and fifty people. But what if there's you know,
two people in each room, you know, three hundred you know,
(21:42):
and so you're doing with number big numbers, and you
know what these guys were going to do, We're you know,
we were intercepting comms, is that they're going to pull
them out of the rooms and throw them off the
top of the building. You know, there was there was
phase two of their plan, I guess. So we had
to get them in front of us as quickly as possible.
And that was a whole there was a whole intent
at that particular point in time until we until we
(22:04):
grabbed a hole of the roof and clear it of
these guys. So it didn't stop there, you know, I mean,
that was that was a long night and I know
a lot of people focusing on that, but yeah, ten hours,
you know a bit of a heartbeat, you know, it
felt like a minute, you know, once you walked down like, well,
looked at my watch man, been in there ten hours,
you know, just and again, you know, when you're in
when you're being challenged significantly or your life's on the line,
(22:26):
then you know your full focus is on what needs
to happen next, and you know, pray for a good outcome.
But yeah, chaos, chaos, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And it must because I mean most people have never
tested like that, never experienced those heights. So once you've
been tested like that, you're in a situation like that,
and it's over and things calm down. I mean, the
feeling isn't a feeling of an elation at that point.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
On operations, Well, I'll go back. I remember standing on
the roof and one of the boys said, I think
that's one of the biggest things that the regiments have
ever been involved in. And I was thinking, you reckon,
and he goes, yeah, think about it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
But I was too busy. I was too busy.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Doing my job, you know, like I was still talking
back to headquarters. I was giving them a brief. It
wasn't over, you know. We started to take rounds on
the roof and stuff like that. But yeah, and then
you know, once you get back and do the debriefs
and you know, have a feed and a bit of
a sleep and that type of thing, you're reorientating onto
another job. You know, it's not like we had the
week off. You know, the boss is like, take the
next couple of weeks off. Boys. You know there's a
(23:29):
big job. We had a job to get after in
three days. You know, it was already lined up. These
things just happened. You know, we're not we're prepared for them,
but they just happen. So you just got to drop
tools and get after it. So we're still had a
job to d side, just refocused on that job. And
then once we did that job, you know, something else
comes up, refolks, So you don't really have time. You know,
you're always distracted and getting onto the next thing. But
(23:51):
you know, you know, once I got back to New Zealand,
it still didn't really hit me. And then you know,
I got pulled into the CEO's office and he said,
here's a letter for you, and then opened it up
and it was how you've been awarded the New Zealand
Country stuff for your efforts. And I said, really said yes,
and I said why and yeah, and then obviously it
(24:16):
started to become a reality pace.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
You're in such a sense of flow that you had
an idea that you were achieving at a level that
deserved a metal Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I mean, yeah, who knows, you know, like, I'm not
too sure how it would have panned out with a
different team. Maybe they've done better, maybe they're done worse.
It just it just depends. I mean, that particular operation
was a really high end test of who we were
as individuals. And not only that, I really tested our
you know, the way we did our business, and all
(24:47):
of that is great feedback coming back, you know, about
how we need to operate in the future. So we
definitely as a regiment gained a lot of information out
of that that will bode well for the future.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
My granddad came back from World War Two and he
had been an important man over there, and then he
moved back to in Chicago where he was working in
a dairy and he never really came back from that.
That the transition from being important and involved in important
things with clear, clear objectives to.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Well, working in a dairy in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So what is that once your career ends and you
come home, the becoming a person and you're not with
your mates every you know, your brothers every night. You know,
you don't have clear orders coming up and that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
When you leave. Yeah, yeah, the transition is very difficult,
and you'll always lean on what's comfortable. And so what's
comfortable is staying in that routine, you know, and the
routine is, well, the routines. There's no real routine, but
kind of a generic routine that you make for yourself
is you know, get up in the morning, train for
an hour and a half, make sure you're operationally fit.
(25:57):
And then I was getting on with made sure I
sort of had something a purpose. So I was doing
my master's studies. I had a year left of those.
I was you know, getting after renovating the house and
that type of thing. But it was, you know, but
then I was. But then I was things like, oh,
you know, I'll keep it. I'll keep doing Brazilian jiu jitsu.
(26:17):
Combat mindset, I'll keep I know, I'll do I'll i'll
buy a pistol in a rifle when I'll join a
gun club, you know what I mean. Combat mindset. And
then so I just pick up on that, you know,
I was trying to just stay in it and that
type of thing. And so I started to become more
aware after I left because I had time to do that,
(26:40):
and then I was able to sort of break things
down and attack them one at a time. So, you know,
by by thirty five, I reckon that. You know, your
character traits are pretty much well established, and then you
know that's who you are or who you think you are,
you know, and so at thirty five, you know, my
character were aligned with you know, surviving on the battlefield,
(27:03):
and so I had a lot to get through. So
I had to just do some self realization. I had
become very acutely self aware and I had to Yeah,
and it was always in the moment too, about how
I was engaging with others, because you know, obviously that's
what happens. You know, the way you engage with others
and how you do it is essential, you know, particularly
(27:23):
the people that.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Are close to you.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
So I had to make the necessary adjustments. You know,
got a bit of help on the side there, but
at the end of the day, you have to do it.
You know, it's you. You want to get big biceps,
you go to the gym and do armkills. If you
want to change your character, then you have to do
the deep the deep thinking and make those adjustments. The
information is all there, it's just up to you apply it.
(27:46):
And I think a lot of people don't do that.
They you know, just think, yep, this is just me.
You know, you think something, you feel something, and then
you project it without a filter, you know what I mean.
In that's emotion and so we unless we have control
over it, then you're kind of sitting in the passenger
seat of the bus. So yeah, and basically it was
a mentality I sort of had. I was thinking, yep,
(28:08):
I'm sitting in the bus. I want to be the driver,
take full control. And that took a significant period of time.
But I'm at a place now where you know, even
now I can track, you know, how I'm thinking and
feeling about things anytime I'm talking to people where you
know I'm in a leadership is a strategic leadership position
at the moment, and you know, you have bold conversations
with people and you know it might get a little
(28:30):
bit heated. But I don't let people draw me in.
Well I choose or I don't you know that that's
my that's my prerogative, and I think that's a massive
game changer for anyone to do well in life and have,
you know, eternal peace. You know, if you allow someone
to hold your hand and anger and then take you
down the garden path and make you as angry as possible,
then that's your problem, you know what I mean, not theirs.
(28:51):
So it's up to you what you decide to engage
with or you don't. You know, you have the decision.
That's just making sure you know what the tools are,
you're willing to do the work day in, day out,
and it will get there, you know. Neural pathway rerouting
if you like to call that, and printing. We all
neural pathways which you know link to you how you
think and feel about things. Takes a bit of time.
(29:12):
I started seeing stuff happening within six weeks because I
made the deliberate effort to do that kind of stuff.
So sorry of it there.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Oh no, That's what I'm about.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like I've been talking a little bit about this kind
of stuff lately, the idea that you don't necessarily know
when you're younger, that you actually have a choice about
how you're You know, someone can fire you up and
you have choice when you when you're younger, you think
I'm angry. I'm angry now, but you do actually have
a choice to go you know, you know, you have
the quality of your thoughts is all you've got, really,
and the choices that you can make. When did you
(29:45):
realize that what you've learned and your experience in life
you could share with other people and help other people
as you do now.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I kind of just went into that space. One of
the things I decided to do was, you know, in general,
what military people do, you know, which makes sense, right?
They go into a lateral position in the civilian sector,
and so a lot of the boys were doing private
security work and Afghanistan, right, But you're not really moving away,
(30:16):
you're going from one military to the next. And so
I made a conscious effort that as part of my development,
to move into something that had nothing to do with
the military. So I got a call from a friend
of mine, Roger Mortimer, who said, the Kiwi Rugby League
team twenty seventeen was I want someone to come in
and just do some leadership development and culture and you know,
(30:40):
do you want to do it? So I said yeah,
and he said okay, cool, let's let's go, and you've
got to say yes, say you know what I mean,
his opportunities come around, you know, they'll be scared. So
I went in front of David Kidwell Scott City. We
had a bit of a discussion. He was happy, he said,
let's just crack on and yeah. And so that was
the beginning of where I started believing that I had
(31:04):
stuff that was useful to others. You know. I started
talking to you know, Simon men Ring and Sean Johnson
and you know, Russell Packer and you know all there
are Jared Why we were hard Grays and Yail, those
hard menuals good. It was good fun, you know, I mean,
but I listened to us saying okay, cool, you know,
sort of took away the mystery of that they went
to the warriors, and then Olympic athletes and then corporates,
(31:24):
and then I went on and on and on, and
you know, yeah, and so you know, because you think
that what you know, everyone knows, yeah, you know, until
you get out there and people are like, oh, well,
you know, you know, it's pretty simple stuff, you know,
and that, but not everyone knows it because they don't
get deliberate leadership development or the Army is very good
(31:44):
at deliberate development across a whole lot of skill sets,
in particular leadership. You know, leadership courses are very significant
and involved, you know, like our junior and c is
go through a three month process and then you've got mentors,
you know, I mean that are there good mentors? You
know that that you up and it just goes on
and on. But yeah, and then and then, and then
(32:05):
obviously people were saying to me, hey, I think you
should write a book, you know, and and I was thinking, why,
why should because you've got a story to tell. Yeah,
And I kind of didn't believe them. But yeah, it
wasn't until Steve Askin was killed in a helicopter crash.
He's a lead pilot and on the Porthill Fires in
(32:25):
twenty fifteen. The monsoon bucket wrapped around the tail raider
and he went in. But you know, it was always
going to be something that was outside of his control,
unfortunately for Steve, because he's a very switched on character
and he would have beenble to control everything else. But anyway,
he died as old man approached me and said, hey,
can you write something up about Steve is the man
(32:46):
that was in the regiment, and you know, just just
so those kids have a reference. And then you know symbolism.
People said enough, you see it, enough, you hear it, enough,
do something about it. So I started writing stuff down,
and you know, one thing led to another, and then
suddenly I've you know, started to put my brain down
on paper. And then then I'm thinking about the threads,
(33:09):
and then I'm thinking and then I was, you know,
talking to people outside that we're having problems, and I
was thinking, actually, this still probably land with a few people,
and then yeah, and here we are.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Well the thing is because of what your your story,
then people will listen because it's not something that other
people experience. And it puts you in a position of
authority because you know, you've experienced, as we're saying, for
firefights and that that nice extreme part of it. So
you know, you may be a rugby league superstar, but
you haven't experienced that level of intensity, you know what
(33:40):
I mean. So it gives you a position of authority
to talk to people in a way you know.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting a because you know, once
I was in professional sports, so I could see the
differences obviously we in terms of patriotism, we hold our
sports teams up in high regard and so we should,
but that the same can't be said for our military,
you know what I mean, You know, I don't think so,
which is a shame. But yeah, the the the you know,
(34:07):
with sports, sports stars, you know, they high performance sports people.
You know, they they have to perform well, they get
to perform under the best conditions, you know, ess they
get to perform at a high level in the worst conditions,
sleep deprived, food deprived, you know what I mean, injured,
possibly out there under the pump all the time. You know. Yeah,
(34:27):
it's yeah, it's just as a totally different mindset. And
there's the reason why we have such a tough selection
process and the reason why we have such a small
percentage of people that can actually pass through it because
it takes a very unique human being. And I'm speaking
for all special forces around the world that need to
go into that space and hold the line. And you know,
(34:48):
it'll be probably I don't know, zero point zero one
percent of the entire global population that get to go
into that space, where you know, sports stars maybe not
so much. So yeah, no, no disrespect to to sports,
but the starts or anything like that. It's just you know,
making comparisons.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So yeah, well, writing a book about it so people
can read that story and see what it is, we'll
obviously help with that. Well, Hey, thank you so much
for coming in and talking to us today, Serviceman Jay.
The untold story of an insured s AS soldier is
out right now, and yeah, find it and read it,
(35:24):
and thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
It was a great hearing his story.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
Yeah, you know, always appreciate the opportunity as always. And yeah, good,
good discussion.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
All right, cheers, mate, cheers, thank you, and we're back.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
What a great man he was, a serviceman Jay, Jamie Pennell.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
I've got to listen to him for for hours.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah, good chat.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Ah, Yeah, you never know, you didn't even know what questions,
how deep you want to go into the situation, you know,
around stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
But yeah, got a good man one nice chat.
Speaker 5 (35:51):
I mean credits you as well. We knew nothing about
that guy coming into this if for being honest, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
They failed to siness any information. Rudis said it the
last minute. We've got this guy coming in and you
feel a little bit intimidated with a you know, Z
says commander coming in who's won a medal for gallantry.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
On the spot.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
And then just but he's a good talker and a
good man. And I humiliatingly gave him a copy of
my book because thought would probably have similar things. And
I imagine he'll be reading my book going, well, this guy
is talking about how he got into a first fight
because he got grumpy when he was playing guitar for
Tim Fin And then you know, like.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Like the level of intensity of to be to be
that guy.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Yeah, but similar themes, wasn't It might be just different,
but the themes also like, you know, a different breed
fest of all to be someone like that, right, Yeah,
but I even know. I mean I've only been in
radio for like four years, but he was the only
person ever to pick up the headphones and make sure
that they're left and the right side.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
That's a really good thing to notice.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
When he came in, he was like on left, you're right. Yeah,
so that goes on. I'll sit down here getting.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
The basics right before he went into combat of talking
to us.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to note, is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
But what a good man he was and you should
buy that book and give him a taste a kiwi.
And that's the Daily Bespoke podcast. You seem busy, so
we'll let you go. Bless bless bliss. All right, okay,
then all right you're right manh yeah, you show that
one up your ass, Meshy. Jesus Christ mate yack. Highlight
podcast out as well, by the way, Oh yeah, you're
the Highlights podcast. That's pretty good. It's not the bloody
going into battle and the bull international though.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Was that?
Speaker 5 (37:22):
It puts your life into a harsh perspective, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
When you talk to someone like that, You go, what
was a decent that's been cut down to sixty minutes
of some pretty quality broadcasting. But it's not a firefighter,
isn't it?
Speaker 5 (37:33):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
It wasn't a bloody. We weren't hiding behind the disc
in a flow state fighting for a fucking lives.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Meshy. You don't think of that important. You're just a radio.
Speaker 5 (37:42):
Host someone by the way telling you how they got
shot at and then they laughed very loudly.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
It's quite an uncomfortable position.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
To be in because you're kind of looking around the
wad go I don't know if I can laugh at it.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
All right, then okay, shove that up your ass.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Hello, I'm Matt Heath.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
You have been listening to the Matt and Jerry Daily
Bespoke podcast. Right now you can listen to our Radio
Highlights podcast, which you will absolutely get.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Barred up about anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Sit to download, like, subscribe, write, review all those great things.
It really helps myself and Jerry and to a lesser extent,
Mesh and Ruder.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
If you want to.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Discuss anything raised in this pod, check out the Conclave,
a Matt and Jerry Facebook discussion group. And while I'm
plugging stuff, my book, A Lifeless Punishing Thirteen Ways to
Love the Life.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
You've Got is out now get it wherever you get
your books, or just google the bastard.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Anyway you seem busy, I'll let you go.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Bless Blessed, blessed. Give them a taste of keyw from me,
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