Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have in our country that has put us in
a position and you mentioned it that's enviable around the world.
And I just traveled to Greece and to Italy and
I had some wonderful conversations with people and they basically
said to me, what happened? You know, where did you go?
Where did America go? And that's something that we built
(00:21):
and going back to the history because you can't you
can't deal with the future without looking at the past
and learning from it. And that's kind of what you're
talking about in Continental Convention.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Incidentally, I had the same experience when I was researching
this book. I went to Scotland. We talked about comments,
which I.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Learned a lot about. I didn't realize what a huge
role the Scott's.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Had they did, And you know, Jefferson has professed Thomas
Jefferson's professor's Wythe and small at William and Mary were
Scottish and a good part of the country at that point,
you know, a fair amount, up to possibly a third
were scotch and Scotch Iris. So yeah, I mean, so
when when you look at what we do at Philadelphia,
(01:01):
I mean, the most important the two major themes I'm
going to talk about here. One is what do we
do with power? Okay, because we actually had a problem,
we didn't have enough authority at the central government, at
the national government level in seventeen eighty seven. However, they
were deeply read in history and they were very concerned
about missing the mark and overshooting it. So that's what
(01:24):
we all learn in school, is right, we're concerned about
it another.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
King George, if we learned that, yeah, right, So, I
mean that's another topic I want to take up as
we go. How do you educate people as citizens? Well,
that's actually either.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Going to be so the second point I'm going to
talk about is citizenry. But the first point on power
is what they did differently when they convened in Philadelphia
as compared to the Declaration, which was seventeen seventy six.
Some of the most summoning words ever penned is, uh,
they looked at human nature. They read, you know, they
read everything they could get their hands on. In fact,
(01:56):
they were almost like a little nervous. They knew that
they had to get it right.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah. And one of the little tidbits, and I'll just
throw this in the publishers in England said that they
were selling more law books, yes, and in America than
they were in English.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Listen, you were told that was actually so. The person
who brought that to King George the Third's attention was
Edmund Burke. We learned about Edmund Burke back in school.
So when he gives his speech the Conciliation with the
Colonies in Parliament, when he gives this bather I would
say famous side of remarks, he actually mentions that in
his speech. He says, I'll remind you, my fellow parliament members,
(02:33):
that these books that are sell more books in the
colonies than they sell here in England. Think about the
self image they had.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They're not just simple farmers from Kinderhook, New York. Well,
and these are people that are learned and well read.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, and let me put a finer point on that.
So Thomas Paine's Common Sense. Okay, so most historians there
aren't exact totals here, but the population here in thirteen
colonies was between two million and two and a half
at the outset of the revolution, And in the first
year of publication, Thomas Paine's Common Sense sold over one
(03:08):
hundred thousand copies, and by the end of the war
a half million. Now do the math of that. I mean,
it's almost like there was a Bible in a common
sense in every household. That's amazing, And so it reinforces
Edmund Burke's point about how careful we were about making
the choices we did. And so I'm talking about power here.
(03:29):
What the founders concluded is that what is the nature?
What is our nature as a species. They actually said,
if we're being candid, it's conflicted. Yes, of course humans
are capable of extraordinary love, even sacrifice if called to it.
But if we're being really honest, we also have a
darker side. They called it darker angels, and that you
(03:50):
in us is the ability to be mobilized by fear
and anger and rage. And what they said is, look
what history has informs us is we need to treat
power in a careful way. And that's why they made
decisions to have a separation of powers. And the purpose
of the separation of powers was to provide balance.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And I was going to that because you don't have
good people on one side and bad people on the other.
You have people that have one good side and one
bad side, and we're all conflicting.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Well, so I make that quote in the Book of Solniza.
You know that the line of good and evil passes
through every man's heart, and Solnice there is quoting a rabbi.
And you know, the point being that the founders, as
much as they were so high on the potential for
(04:45):
our country, they knew that if you give anyone absolute power,
history tells us it'll be abused. So they not only
set up a balance between this new federal government and
the states, and they took it very seriously. Of course,
we know the ninth and ten at amendments, but then
they actually set up a balance between the three respective branches.
(05:05):
And you know, of course we look back on that
and we say, of course, but you know, no nation
ever had actually established an independent judiciary until us. You know,
your judges were essentially in that line. That's the line
where well, these these types of issues, well they were
nervous about it too, to be progressed.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
And so you know, all of these things played right
into modern day and where our systems have gone over
the last thirty forty years.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well, yeah, I mean, and we'll get into that, I'm
sure in a second. But you know, the founders were
so nervous about this. Because the way you can tell
is just read the Constitution right now, and even if
you have it right in front of you, I mean,
you'll see that the most the most words are used
in Article one. They were very comfortable talking about the
people's houses, right. Well, they actually decided to go with
buy camer So if you look at it, article one
(05:52):
has the most words. Article two, well, you know, the
idea of an executive. They did debate different kinds. Alexander
Hamilton had a plan and he wanted to have a
president for life, and.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
He did.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
He said, I did not wage war on George the
third to become George the first. That's a great quote
from George Washington. But when you get to the third article,
you see that with the judiciary brands, they were very nervous.
So it was very small. So you know, here you
have this new constitution and it's balancing power so that
we can retain our liberty. The other point that we're
(06:27):
going to go to break has to do with civic
engagement sit and we'll get to that after the break.
But I do want to talk about balance as it
relates to citizenship and our role being educated and formed educated, informed,
and engaged.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And I love the balance not just in the government
but also in ourselves. And I've absolutely as a young kid,
I always thought, Okay, so i have my mind, and
i have intellect, and I'm going to school. I have
the church, and i have my spirit, and that's the
I need to keep my body physically fit to do
the things that I need to do. So my body
and spirit in that balance. Check out the book The
(07:02):
Spirit of Philadelphiporit of Philadelphia. Were live with Chris Gibson.
We're gonna be back after the news. Stay with us
happy fourth of July of the Spirit of Philadelphia. Former Congressman,
former president of Sianna University, and we're gonna pivot a
little bit. The Founding Fathers, to me, were one of
(07:23):
the most fascinating groups. The wisdom that they were able
to cull from a group of very disparate people with
backgrounds and ownership of property and different experiences to come
together in Philadelphia and to bring out from each of
(07:43):
them something that was very painfully absent for many years
with the Articles of Confederation, trying to get people from
the South to North New York Virginia, very different approaches
and certain figures that just rose to the top. And
we mentioned George Washington. Ben Franklin was another.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, yeah, and we played an important role. James Madison
really arguably pulled the most together when it came to
the Constitution. I mean, he had studied extensively, and he
convinced these delegates to actually go beyond you know, the
charter that they had received from the Continental Congress at
the time, was to identify the defects and come forward
(08:27):
to recommendations for the articles.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And I would pose that not only the defects in
the government and the charters, but in the people that
were forming them. And they locked themselves in the room
and didn't allow any press, that's true, didn't allow any
intervention to get to where their hearts were.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, yeah, they did, and Washington explained George Washington explained
why we needed to do that. But what's interesting about Philadelphia,
it's different from seventeen seventy six in some ways. You know,
the Declaration, as I mentioned in the last segment, was
some of the most summoning words ever penned, and they
were in many regards idealistic and by seventeen eighty six
(09:09):
and eighty seven. The founders were more sober about reality,
and so what you see in the Constitutional proceedings is
they're imbued with a sense of realism. We mentioned query quickly,
common sense realism, which was.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Big theme of the book, a big name of the book.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It really was our founding philosophy, and it really starts
with a view of human nature that it is conflicted.
Therefore what you need to do with power. But then
the other piece of this ordered liberty is we as
you mentioned earlier, we rejected other forms of government, including
direct democracy. I mean, they had read what happened to Athens,
(09:47):
and they ultimately decided that the best way for human felicity,
as they described it, which is essentially you know, joy
and flourishing, economic flourishing, was a republic which had constitutional
democratic principles, and that all relied on citizens who were
engaged informed. Uh they were educated and uh informed and
(10:10):
engaged all three of those things. And they're slightly different.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
But you know, quote as the exiting, well, a republic,
do you give us, mister Franklin, the republic if you
can keep it right?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
So, and it's it's so much relied on citizens being
self governing to start with. And so here's where you
see the movement away from uh well it's actually it's
gonna say away. But I mean what the underlying value
we had at the declaration was honor, and I go
through that in the book. But what we do with
(10:44):
the Constitutional Convention is we moved to virtue. Now virtue
of includes honor, but it goes deeper than that. It's
about self governance and how important that is to local government,
state and then ultimately the national government. So for virtue,
the Greek word aretha really assumes balance, right. I mean,
(11:05):
this is in the book I explained courage, and when
I was a young lad, this didn't make sense to me,
and then I had to think long and hard. But like,
for example, courage is actually a midpoint, and I was
a young kid, I was like, how could that be
a midpoint? You know? And really it's because it sits
in between the polls. He will the extremes of cowardice
(11:26):
and heedlessness. Right. The Greeks were like, this is about judgment,
it's about getting it right. And this was so important,
the virtue, the balance, and you know, so that is
in part, you know, in these responsibilities that citizens had
to be educated, informed, and engaged. Adams and Jefferson, I
mean they were like cats and dogs. They disagreed on
(11:46):
so much. I mean, you know, here's Jefferson, he wants
to keep a rural vision, a grarian vision for our
country going forward. Then there's you know, Adams, who to
a degree is influenced by Hamilton. Here they they eventually
there were no political parties at the outset, but they
eventually find themselves gravitating to either the Adams and Hamilton's
side or the Jefferson side. So they disagreed wildly on issues,
(12:07):
but they agreed on those two points that power needed
to be separated, checked and held accountable, and that this
will not work if citizens are not educated, informed, and engaged.
Had to be all three, and so you know, really
the book is about what's happened to us over time.
I mentioned this is America's story told through the history
(12:29):
of ideas, and you know, you look at what happens
is I mean, look, first of all, I do go
through the whole piece of it to show how it flourished,
how we rose from a backward nation mostly farmers to
Topho comes here in the eighteen thirties, the heads of
state of Europe are like, when are they going to
beg for.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Us to come back?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
And Tofo comes over here ostensibly to study prisons, and
he goes back, but he's really there to find out
when are they going to beg for us to come back?
These are the monarchs thinking. And by the way, for
all the talk of the one hundred years war and
all this, listen these heads of state, they they were
like illuminati. I mean, yeah, they may have been one
hundred years of war, but they were still they were
intermarried all these kings and queens and aristocracy from these
(13:10):
respective countries. And they believe that humans could not survive
without a king and a queen an aristocracy. So they
never thought we would succeed.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
People cannot self govern.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
They can't self I mean, according to the old ancient regime.
They sent to Tokfol over here and he spent a good,
you know, over a year here, and he traveled wildly,
and when he went back, he said, look, I got
a couple things to tell you. Number one is, don't
be waiting on these guys. They're never going to ask
for you to come back. Number one. Number two, and
this shocked them. They de Tookefield predicts that we're going
(13:43):
to rise to be a global superpower. I mean, that
blew them away. They're like, what that bunch of farm
rag tag farmers. And so, you know, when you look
at the Founding principles, they worked for us. They really
allowed us to flourish at the outset of the end
Ustrial age. We ran into one major problem, and it
(14:03):
had to do with an assumption. The founders really thought
that they were clever. And then, of course they were,
and in many respects, you know, you could even argue
divinely inspired. But they believed with the Constitution they were
able to solve the major riddle, the big problem slavery, right.
I mean, they wanted all thirteen states to ratify this Constitution,
(14:25):
but they also wanted to put slavery on the path
to extinction. And they believed they had done it with
that clause about the slave trade in eighteen oh eight
being terminated. They believed they put it on a path.
In fact, I cite it in the book. But you know, Madison,
in Federalist Essay number forty two, he says, wasn't that genius,
Wasn't that amazing what we did? So when obviously the
(14:50):
cotton gin invention of seventeen ninety seven. It becomes more
profitable to work cotton, and in fact because of slavery.
So a number of things. What does the system do well?
The system did a lot of things to move us
to superpower status. But one thing the system actually worked
exactly as designed, which is the Constitution itself was a
(15:11):
compromise meant to drive compromise, and it was supported by
the spirit of Philadelphia, which was one of collaboration, optimism, determinism,
the determination we're going to overcome the challenges we have. Well, then,
when we had the issue of slavery that Thomas Jefferson
finally recognized in the early eighteen twenty, he recognized, this
(15:33):
may be the fire bell in the night he's and
this is some people argue he may be the smartest
president we ever had, Thomas Jefferson. But he realized, oh jeez,
I think we may have. So what did the system
do well? It went into high gear. It produced compromise.
So we had the Compromise of eighteen twenty, the Compromise
of eighteen fifty, the Kansas the break. You get. The
point is that we did what common sense realism was
(15:54):
meant to do through the founding principles. Ultimately we ended
up shooting at each other. And unfortunately, I believe, I
argue in the book that Abraham Lincoln actually had a vision.
He said at his second in Argle address, he said,
with malice towards none, we will bind up the wounds
of this nation. Another learned man who read he's autodidactic.
(16:16):
I mean he learned all on is. He had six
weeks of formal schooling in his entire life. And he
was one of the most well read presidents we ever had.
And he had a plan to bring us back together.
And of course he was murdered. And the sad thing
is I argue in the book that of among all
the casualties we had in the Civil War, among those
(16:37):
was common sense realism, because we never fully unified behind
a philosophy after the Civil War. And when I get
asked folks to explain this, I said, in some ways,
it's like the Game of Thrones. If the listeners out
there know that one of the under the overriding themes
of the Game of Thrones is who is the one
rightful heir?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I mean, we go through status, we go through all
this right, well, after the Civil War, our intellectuals all
argue that they are the rightful heir to common sense realism,
but they're like, they're so far apart. So you have
new American intellectuals that are what's now this burgeoning group
that's called progressives, right, and they're very influenced by German idealism,
(17:20):
Hegel and others, Max Weber who writes so in. Among
those is woodgew Wilson talk about him in a second.
But then on the other side you have what you
would describe as libertarianism, which is logical positivism. And here
you have William Graham Sumner and he's writing about what
social classes all each other, which he basically says it's nothing.
(17:40):
So you have these two choices, but they are just
polar opposites when in fact common sense realism. If you
think about what Lincoln was for, he was for union,
he was for separating and checking power, but he also
built railroads, right, So this was a different kind of
philosophy about how to proceed. And we lost. We lost.
We didn't lose the spirit. I want to be clear
(18:01):
about this. The spirit has never died, but it has
largely become dormant.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Now, going back to the Toko, one of his observations
was he had never seen people, common people engaging with
their government. Big Pacific engagement, absolutely big deal.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And he said, there's no analogy for this in Europe.
He said, when when a problem emerges, and this is
even in the eighteen thirties, now.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, he said, yeah, you know, this is when it
was really flourishing.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So so yeah, so exactly, and he was he was
blown away by this. But when we had when when
problems were arising in local communities in France, which is
where he was from, he was actually part of the aristocracy. Actually,
ironically enough, people went to their government, their local bureaucracy,
which was burgeoning in Europe at the time. In America,
(18:51):
they didn't even go to the to the government, They
just went to their neighbors. He does give this sort
of description of issues in Pennsylvania and how they people
came together and helped this family and need. And there's
a major demarcation here. There's a major change that's occurring.
But after the Civil War, you know, Woodow Wilson writes
his dissertation, he's one of the first doctorates from Johns
(19:15):
Hopkins University. He writes this in the mid and he
initially starts researching it and writing in the early eighteen eighties.
But he's arguing in his dissertation that the Founders got
it exactly wrong. He said, the Founders, well, their view
on human nature was too pessimistic, and therefore they made
mistakes when it came to power. This whole idea of
(19:35):
separation of powers, he called it onerous. And he said
this extensive. He called it over use of checks and balances. Well,
really that's just stands in the way. You know, this
is Wilson. Now, he's saying that, look, with the advent
of the Industrial Age, we have urbanization, modernization, you know,
new technology, and we have new social, socioeconomic problems attendant.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
To the new age.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And here we have this legacy of the found We
need to scrap it. We need to replace the Founding
principles with a new set of ideas. So Wilson's writing
about this. He looks to take action when he's the
president of Princeton College, Princeton University, and then he becomes
President of the United States. And I do have a
section in the book, right and I'm trying to do
(20:18):
this clinically. I mean, I mean people who've known me
a long time. No, I don't agree with Woods or Wilson,
but I'm trying to write it. I'm trying to be
fair to his argument before I then critique it, which
I'm rather critical, but I try to present it in
the most neutral fashion I can, because even to this day,
there are Americans who believe in progressivism. But what I'm
arguing is, look, before there was progressivism, there was liberalism
(20:42):
and conservatism under common sense realism. So liberal and conservatism
were ideologies that nested nicely under common sense realism, and
they were displaced by progressivism on the one hand, and
then really this logical positivism, which might modern day libertarianism.
So you know, the book is really the America's story here,
(21:05):
and it so Wilson initially moves us on this, but
the reality is this, since that time, particularly in this century,
this last twenty five years, both political parties have been
behind strengthening the power of the federal government and moving
that loki of power into one person, the President of
the United States. I mean today, you know, you listen
(21:26):
to the talking heads and you'd think that you know,
Trump supporters and Trump haters are like one hundred and
eighty degrees out on this, when in fact, the one
thing at the big picture they agree upon is they
want strong presidents. They I mean, the Trump supporters want
Trump to have I mean, you saw the arguments for
immunity before the Summer Court and the idea that gorek
(21:47):
shouldn't be checked. So so, I mean, there was a
time when the Republican Party really believed in real limited
government and really moving the power down. Where we have
now is both political parties. One's enamored by progressivism and
the other by a cultural movement populism, which, by the way,
I understand, coming from rural upstate New York, I get
a populist impulse, and I actually support a lot of
(22:09):
the ideas within populism, but I do it within founding
principles that we should still separate power, check and keep
it accountable.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Right, And so let's take a short break, our last break.
When we come back, let's build on that and talk
about you know, Woodrow Wilson and his time was probably
the precursor to where we are today, looking at scrapping
the fundamentals that were built by the founders of this
country and how do we get back? And you have
a number of wonderful reform ideas in the book, which
(22:38):
we agree on, probably ninety eight percent of them. How
do we get back to a government of the people,
by the people, and for the people. Amen, we'll come
back after this short break for life happens here on
fourth of July weekend with the author of the Spirit
of Philadelphia, Chris Gibson. Chris, this is fascinating for me
(23:00):
and being a history buff and someone who follows current
events politics and looks at history and putting it all
in context. This book does it in a remarkable way.
So if you haven't read The Spirit of Philadelphia, how
can they find it again?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, well it's you go to either Amazon or Rutledge,
but you can go to my website, the Spirit of
Philadelphia dot com. You can learn more and you can
order the book right there on my website. You can
also send me a message I'd love to hear from.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You, and they can contact you through the website.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, there's a way, the Spirit of Philadelphia dot Com.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And I haven't taken calls today, but if you have
thoughts on what we're talking about, certainly get them to
Congressman Gibson, Former Congressman Gibson. Yeah, go by Chris scholar
Gibson now and author and Chris, we're following through on
the progression from ancient Greece and the democracy that they had,
the failure of Greece, the failure of Rome, the United States,
(23:52):
where it picks up in our founding fathers, and now
throughout the course of history. You mentioned Lincoln, you mentioned
Woodrow Wilson, follow that through to where we are and
what we really need to be thinking about as a
nation and as a society.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So let me just say right up front, I get
this moment we're in, having grown up in upstate New York.
I mean, and I mean part of the reason why
I had a challenge in my time serving as I
tried to explain what was going on to John Bayner,
the former Speaker of the House, and I never really
did get through to him. I voted against him and
his last, you know, candidacy to be Speaker. But I said, look,
(24:29):
you're not listening to what the people are saying. Increasingly,
folks were disenchanted and losing faith and trust in institutions
and leaders. This opened up the space for a populist
message and for the candidate Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
And to run success is something well.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, and I mean that's certainly part of this here.
But I mean Trump spoke to what people were thinking,
you know, the fact that the system was rigged. I
wish I could tell you, Lou, I'm looking right at you.
I wish I could tell you the system wasn't rigged.
But I know it to be rigged. I mean it's
rigged for people with money and close ties to people
in power. And so what I think we need to
(25:09):
do is we need to restore trust in faith in
our republic, which means we need a series of reforms.
This is you alluded to it right before the last break.
So the last third of the book, the first two
thirds of the book is about philosophy and history, history
and philosophy, and I really hope you read it and
think about it. And because today it's like a meat grinder.
(25:31):
Everybody says, are you pro Trumper against Trump? You know,
I mean, that's not what I'm doing here. I'm trying
to reach everybody.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Take a pause, you take a step back, pause, take
a step feel under attacklemost on a daily basis the
information that's being pushed on us.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Well, and the point is that I get the moment
we're in. I understand, you know, but I'm also saying,
let's take a step back and take a look at
what we should do now and how do we restore
trust in faith? So look, I mean, we have to
recognize there's another tooral industrial complex.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
It there just is.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And doesn't mean I didn't love some of my former colleagues,
because I did. But the fact of the matter is
is there is a wide collaboration for those that get
to write the tax code, write the laws.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I mean so and yeah, oh you're talking money, dark money, obvious,
big time power behind the power.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
So you know, what I'm arguing here is that we
need to we need term limits. Look, and you know,
we actually had term limits in the Articles of Confederation
and some say, well, the founders change their mind on it,
and that's why it's not in the constitution. That's actually
not true. Incidentally, if you're looking for it in the articles,
because I think some of the folks out there are
gonna be curious about it, it's actually called rotation of
office in the articles, and it actually lays out some
(26:43):
stipulations on how when you can serve Stanford to be
a candidate and run. But the founders didn't give up
on it. They just chose a why, entire an entirely
different philosophical way to write a constitution. And how do
we know this because like George Washington, he makes a
con his choice to self impose term limits at two
(27:04):
and he did that because he knew every action was
going to set a precedent and he wanted to make
the state the bold statement, the clear statement that we
were meant to serve for a season and go back home.
And I actually learned through experience that you need to
write this in a way because look, I get that
folks don't want to give up power voluntary. There's a
way to do this, I explained in the book the
(27:26):
way we can enact termlins.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
We actually got.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
You know, there were last time there was a vote,
because you know, it needs a vote in the House
and the Senate two thirds there, it goes to the
states three quarters of them ratified, it becomes an amendment
to the Constitution. We actually had pluralities in both the
House and the Senate, but it didn't rise to the
two thirds level. I think the way you got to
do term limits is is you say their grandfather did
you say? Look that when you vote for this amendment,
(27:51):
it will go into a fact when the next representative
from that district is sent to Washington, That's when it
kicks in, and then I think we can get term lie.
I also argue for independent redistricting. I mean, part of
the reason why we're so divided today is we have
this illusion that we pick our representatives when too often
actually representatives picked their voters, and they do it in
(28:12):
a bipart of some collusion way every ten years. And
when we do the redistricting process.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
You were in Congress and your congressional district was a
snake and it had all kinds of shapes.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, the interesting thing about that, louse, I actually was
the only Republican in New York State that got weaker
from the redistrict king. And I never complained about it
because I didn't believe I should be picking my voters.
And I think in some ways the Lord was looking
down because in my last election, I was in a
district that President Barack Obama carried twice. He carried it
by seven points, and I beat that billionaire by almost
(28:42):
thirty points, So I think in some ways there was
some justice there. But you know, the point is, we
need independent redistricting and we also need campaign finance reformre
We've got to do this. We have the spirit, part
of the spirit of our democracy. We are actually republic,
but with the democratic principles underlying that republic is one person,
one vote, when in reality, the more money you have
(29:03):
in the closer year to power, the more influential your
vote is. And that should change. So I also think
we need to go through the tax code. That's a
big issue. We needed trade reform. Look that it's not surprisingly.
I mean a number of the things that President Trump
successfully campaign for president on are actually helpful to our
We need trade reform. I mean, there are tactics. How
(29:24):
you do it does matter too, but the fact is
that for too long, the trade system really helped Wall Street,
It really helped those with money and interest, and President
Trump has made that an issue and he was right
about that. We need to look at our foreign policy.
You know, we're a republic. We're not meant to start wars.
You know, if we get attacked, we're certainly going to
finish them. On our terms. I think we need the
(29:46):
War Powers Reform Act. You know, we need to look
at the way we enact bureaucratic rules. I mean, we
now have an unelected bureaucracy foisting that upon us. It
needs to be accountable. How do you make that accountable?
You make the Congress take votes on.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It up or down. Executive orders have become the order
of the day. So get the government runs well.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
And by the way, this is well before I know
we're talking about it now and the Trump administration, but
this has been an issue. If you go back to
actually Woodrow Wilson and everything thereafter, you see what's what
political scientists call the growth of the imperial presidency. These
books like Schlessinger wrote this, I mean, folks will know
that's a really old name. Yeah, I mean the Imperial
(30:25):
Presidency was written fifty years forty fifty years and.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You talk about your conversations with John Bayner, that's long.
Oh yeah, President Trump became presidents.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
And what it relates to what we're talking about here
this morning is how do we array power? And what
we need to do is take a step back and
realize the founders were right. And incidentally, this is this
whole book is not about going back. This is about
going forward with the right principles. Yes, what the founders
did was time honored. I mean, so we we recover
(30:55):
these principles, and I'm saying that these are best Jazers
I'm still hap to miss. I think our best days
are still in front of us. I have the series
of reforms. Folks can read it. And as some of
the endorsers, I've been blessed. Victor Davis Hanson endorsed the book.
Lou Irwin endorsed the book. They happen to come from
two different political perspectives, but they both believe that this
(31:16):
book is important.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Absolutely. And you were part of a group in Washington
that I'm part of and was and still am. And
it's called no Labels and something called the Problem Solvers Caucus. Yeah,
why does that have to be a unique body. Why
can't that be all of Congress?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well it should be, I mean by ethic, right, so
you can have strong conservative principles and know that we
need to work together. The whole point of rebalancing the
power is it requires us to work together. You know,
I mentioned at the outset of my interview here this
morning that that was the unexpected gift. When they had
to work together to fix the defects of the articles,
(31:52):
they actually created the spirit of Philadelphia. Right, And if
we rebalance and require us instead of just doing executive
changed by Fiat. And incidentally, at the moment we were
talking about President Trump, but I mean, it wasn't that
long ago what President Obama said, I've got a pen
and I've got a phone. I've got a phone, and
I got a pen, and if I need to enact
change that way. And I remember my supporters they were
(32:13):
very upset they were talking about and peaching them over that.
And what he was really talking about was executive orders.
And I think we've come to rely too much on that.
We need to rebalance that. And then also, Lou, I've
got a chapter on us, like actually chapter eleven. It's
called Notes for us, we the people, because we have
to recognize that our role in this republic is to
(32:35):
be educated, informed, and engaged in education.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think doesn't mean college necessarily incased. He how do
we reach people? And there is a way to reach
people today that is more pervasive than anything Woodrow Wilson
could ever dream of. We can get to them on
a second to second basis.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Absolutely, and that is the information age, which is the
double edged sword. Right, But you're right, I mean there's
a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
How do we recapture that?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Well, I think what we need, what I'm trying to
do with this book is really just rekindle the love
for our country, to realize how special we change the
world for the better. The Spirit of Philadelphia changed the
arc of human history for the better. Let's recover this,
Let's reawaken.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
The Spirit of Philadelphia. Please check it out.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Hit my website, the Spirit of Philadelphia dot com, reread it,
think about it, send me a note.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Chris Gibson, thank you so much for thank you time.
God bless the listeners out there too. Happy Birthday listening,
Happy fourth of July. We hope you listen every Saturday
morning at at nine am here on talk radio WGY.
The Spirit of Philadelphia
We have in our country that has put us in
a position and you mentioned it that's enviable around the world.
And I just traveled to Greece and to Italy and
I had some wonderful conversations with people and they basically
said to me, what happened? You know, where did you go?
Where did America go? And that's something that we built
(00:21):
and going back to the history because you can't you
can't deal with the future without looking at the past
and learning from it. And that's kind of what you're
talking about in Continental Convention.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Incidentally, I had the same experience when I was researching
this book. I went to Scotland. We talked about comments,
which I.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Learned a lot about. I didn't realize what a huge
role the Scott's.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Had they did, And you know, Jefferson has professed Thomas
Jefferson's professor's Wythe and small at William and Mary were
Scottish and a good part of the country at that point,
you know, a fair amount, up to possibly a third
were scotch and Scotch Iris. So yeah, I mean, so
when when you look at what we do at Philadelphia,
(01:01):
I mean, the most important the two major themes I'm
going to talk about here. One is what do we
do with power? Okay, because we actually had a problem,
we didn't have enough authority at the central government, at
the national government level in seventeen eighty seven. However, they
were deeply read in history and they were very concerned
about missing the mark and overshooting it. So that's what
(01:24):
we all learn in school, is right, we're concerned about
it another.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
King George, if we learned that, yeah, right, So, I
mean that's another topic I want to take up as
we go. How do you educate people as citizens? Well,
that's actually either.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Going to be so the second point I'm going to
talk about is citizenry. But the first point on power
is what they did differently when they convened in Philadelphia
as compared to the Declaration, which was seventeen seventy six.
Some of the most summoning words ever penned is, uh,
they looked at human nature. They read, you know, they
read everything they could get their hands on. In fact,
(01:56):
they were almost like a little nervous. They knew that
they had to get it right.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah. And one of the little tidbits, and I'll just
throw this in the publishers in England said that they
were selling more law books, yes, and in America than
they were in English.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Listen, you were told that was actually so. The person
who brought that to King George the Third's attention was
Edmund Burke. We learned about Edmund Burke back in school.
So when he gives his speech the Conciliation with the
Colonies in Parliament, when he gives this bather I would
say famous side of remarks, he actually mentions that in
his speech. He says, I'll remind you, my fellow parliament members,
(02:33):
that these books that are sell more books in the
colonies than they sell here in England. Think about the
self image they had.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They're not just simple farmers from Kinderhook, New York. Well,
and these are people that are learned and well read.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, and let me put a finer point on that.
So Thomas Paine's Common Sense. Okay, so most historians there
aren't exact totals here, but the population here in thirteen
colonies was between two million and two and a half
at the outset of the revolution, And in the first
year of publication, Thomas Paine's Common Sense sold over one
(03:08):
hundred thousand copies, and by the end of the war
a half million. Now do the math of that. I mean,
it's almost like there was a Bible in a common
sense in every household. That's amazing, And so it reinforces
Edmund Burke's point about how careful we were about making
the choices we did. And so I'm talking about power here.
(03:29):
What the founders concluded is that what is the nature?
What is our nature as a species. They actually said,
if we're being candid, it's conflicted. Yes, of course humans
are capable of extraordinary love, even sacrifice if called to it.
But if we're being really honest, we also have a
darker side. They called it darker angels, and that you
(03:50):
in us is the ability to be mobilized by fear
and anger and rage. And what they said is, look
what history has informs us is we need to treat
power in a careful way. And that's why they made
decisions to have a separation of powers. And the purpose
of the separation of powers was to provide balance.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And I was going to that because you don't have
good people on one side and bad people on the other.
You have people that have one good side and one
bad side, and we're all conflicting.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Well, so I make that quote in the Book of Solniza.
You know that the line of good and evil passes
through every man's heart, and Solnice there is quoting a rabbi.
And you know, the point being that the founders, as
much as they were so high on the potential for
(04:45):
our country, they knew that if you give anyone absolute power,
history tells us it'll be abused. So they not only
set up a balance between this new federal government and
the states, and they took it very seriously. Of course,
we know the ninth and ten at amendments, but then
they actually set up a balance between the three respective branches.
(05:05):
And you know, of course we look back on that
and we say, of course, but you know, no nation
ever had actually established an independent judiciary until us. You know,
your judges were essentially in that line. That's the line
where well, these these types of issues, well they were
nervous about it too, to be progressed.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
And so you know, all of these things played right
into modern day and where our systems have gone over
the last thirty forty years.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well, yeah, I mean, and we'll get into that, I'm
sure in a second. But you know, the founders were
so nervous about this. Because the way you can tell
is just read the Constitution right now, and even if
you have it right in front of you, I mean,
you'll see that the most the most words are used
in Article one. They were very comfortable talking about the
people's houses, right. Well, they actually decided to go with
buy camer So if you look at it, article one
(05:52):
has the most words. Article two, well, you know, the
idea of an executive. They did debate different kinds. Alexander
Hamilton had a plan and he wanted to have a
president for life, and.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
He did.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
He said, I did not wage war on George the
third to become George the first. That's a great quote
from George Washington. But when you get to the third article,
you see that with the judiciary brands, they were very nervous.
So it was very small. So you know, here you
have this new constitution and it's balancing power so that
we can retain our liberty. The other point that we're
(06:27):
going to go to break has to do with civic
engagement sit and we'll get to that after the break.
But I do want to talk about balance as it
relates to citizenship and our role being educated and formed educated, informed,
and engaged.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And I love the balance not just in the government
but also in ourselves. And I've absolutely as a young kid,
I always thought, Okay, so i have my mind, and
i have intellect, and I'm going to school. I have
the church, and i have my spirit, and that's the
I need to keep my body physically fit to do
the things that I need to do. So my body
and spirit in that balance. Check out the book The
(07:02):
Spirit of Philadelphiporit of Philadelphia. Were live with Chris Gibson.
We're gonna be back after the news. Stay with us
happy fourth of July of the Spirit of Philadelphia. Former Congressman,
former president of Sianna University, and we're gonna pivot a
little bit. The Founding Fathers, to me, were one of
(07:23):
the most fascinating groups. The wisdom that they were able
to cull from a group of very disparate people with
backgrounds and ownership of property and different experiences to come
together in Philadelphia and to bring out from each of
(07:43):
them something that was very painfully absent for many years
with the Articles of Confederation, trying to get people from
the South to North New York Virginia, very different approaches
and certain figures that just rose to the top. And
we mentioned George Washington. Ben Franklin was another.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, yeah, and we played an important role. James Madison
really arguably pulled the most together when it came to
the Constitution. I mean, he had studied extensively, and he
convinced these delegates to actually go beyond you know, the
charter that they had received from the Continental Congress at
the time, was to identify the defects and come forward
(08:27):
to recommendations for the articles.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And I would pose that not only the defects in
the government and the charters, but in the people that
were forming them. And they locked themselves in the room
and didn't allow any press, that's true, didn't allow any
intervention to get to where their hearts were.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, yeah, they did, and Washington explained George Washington explained
why we needed to do that. But what's interesting about Philadelphia,
it's different from seventeen seventy six in some ways. You know,
the Declaration, as I mentioned in the last segment, was
some of the most summoning words ever penned, and they
were in many regards idealistic and by seventeen eighty six
(09:09):
and eighty seven. The founders were more sober about reality,
and so what you see in the Constitutional proceedings is
they're imbued with a sense of realism. We mentioned query quickly,
common sense realism, which was.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Big theme of the book, a big name of the book.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It really was our founding philosophy, and it really starts
with a view of human nature that it is conflicted.
Therefore what you need to do with power. But then
the other piece of this ordered liberty is we as
you mentioned earlier, we rejected other forms of government, including
direct democracy. I mean, they had read what happened to Athens,
(09:47):
and they ultimately decided that the best way for human felicity,
as they described it, which is essentially you know, joy
and flourishing, economic flourishing, was a republic which had constitutional
democratic principles, and that all relied on citizens who were
engaged informed. Uh they were educated and uh informed and
(10:10):
engaged all three of those things. And they're slightly different.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
But you know, quote as the exiting, well, a republic,
do you give us, mister Franklin, the republic if you
can keep it right?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
So, and it's it's so much relied on citizens being
self governing to start with. And so here's where you
see the movement away from uh well it's actually it's
gonna say away. But I mean what the underlying value
we had at the declaration was honor, and I go
through that in the book. But what we do with
(10:44):
the Constitutional Convention is we moved to virtue. Now virtue
of includes honor, but it goes deeper than that. It's
about self governance and how important that is to local government,
state and then ultimately the national government. So for virtue,
the Greek word aretha really assumes balance, right. I mean,
(11:05):
this is in the book I explained courage, and when
I was a young lad, this didn't make sense to me,
and then I had to think long and hard. But like,
for example, courage is actually a midpoint, and I was
a young kid, I was like, how could that be
a midpoint? You know? And really it's because it sits
in between the polls. He will the extremes of cowardice
(11:26):
and heedlessness. Right. The Greeks were like, this is about judgment,
it's about getting it right. And this was so important,
the virtue, the balance, and you know, so that is
in part, you know, in these responsibilities that citizens had
to be educated, informed, and engaged. Adams and Jefferson, I
mean they were like cats and dogs. They disagreed on
(11:46):
so much. I mean, you know, here's Jefferson, he wants
to keep a rural vision, a grarian vision for our
country going forward. Then there's you know, Adams, who to
a degree is influenced by Hamilton. Here they they eventually
there were no political parties at the outset, but they
eventually find themselves gravitating to either the Adams and Hamilton's
side or the Jefferson side. So they disagreed wildly on issues,
(12:07):
but they agreed on those two points that power needed
to be separated, checked and held accountable, and that this
will not work if citizens are not educated, informed, and engaged.
Had to be all three, and so you know, really
the book is about what's happened to us over time.
I mentioned this is America's story told through the history
(12:29):
of ideas, and you know, you look at what happens
is I mean, look, first of all, I do go
through the whole piece of it to show how it flourished,
how we rose from a backward nation mostly farmers to
Topho comes here in the eighteen thirties, the heads of
state of Europe are like, when are they going to
beg for.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Us to come back?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
And Tofo comes over here ostensibly to study prisons, and
he goes back, but he's really there to find out
when are they going to beg for us to come back?
These are the monarchs thinking. And by the way, for
all the talk of the one hundred years war and
all this, listen these heads of state, they they were
like illuminati. I mean, yeah, they may have been one
hundred years of war, but they were still they were
intermarried all these kings and queens and aristocracy from these
(13:10):
respective countries. And they believe that humans could not survive
without a king and a queen an aristocracy. So they
never thought we would succeed.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
People cannot self govern.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
They can't self I mean, according to the old ancient regime.
They sent to Tokfol over here and he spent a good,
you know, over a year here, and he traveled wildly,
and when he went back, he said, look, I got
a couple things to tell you. Number one is, don't
be waiting on these guys. They're never going to ask
for you to come back. Number one. Number two, and
this shocked them. They de Tookefield predicts that we're going
(13:43):
to rise to be a global superpower. I mean, that
blew them away. They're like, what that bunch of farm
rag tag farmers. And so, you know, when you look
at the Founding principles, they worked for us. They really
allowed us to flourish at the outset of the end
Ustrial age. We ran into one major problem, and it
(14:03):
had to do with an assumption. The founders really thought
that they were clever. And then, of course they were,
and in many respects, you know, you could even argue
divinely inspired. But they believed with the Constitution they were
able to solve the major riddle, the big problem slavery, right.
I mean, they wanted all thirteen states to ratify this Constitution,
(14:25):
but they also wanted to put slavery on the path
to extinction. And they believed they had done it with
that clause about the slave trade in eighteen oh eight
being terminated. They believed they put it on a path.
In fact, I cite it in the book. But you know, Madison,
in Federalist Essay number forty two, he says, wasn't that genius,
Wasn't that amazing what we did? So when obviously the
(14:50):
cotton gin invention of seventeen ninety seven. It becomes more
profitable to work cotton, and in fact because of slavery.
So a number of things. What does the system do well?
The system did a lot of things to move us
to superpower status. But one thing the system actually worked
exactly as designed, which is the Constitution itself was a
(15:11):
compromise meant to drive compromise, and it was supported by
the spirit of Philadelphia, which was one of collaboration, optimism, determinism,
the determination we're going to overcome the challenges we have. Well, then,
when we had the issue of slavery that Thomas Jefferson
finally recognized in the early eighteen twenty, he recognized, this
(15:33):
may be the fire bell in the night he's and
this is some people argue he may be the smartest
president we ever had, Thomas Jefferson. But he realized, oh jeez,
I think we may have. So what did the system
do well? It went into high gear. It produced compromise.
So we had the Compromise of eighteen twenty, the Compromise
of eighteen fifty, the Kansas the break. You get. The
point is that we did what common sense realism was
(15:54):
meant to do through the founding principles. Ultimately we ended
up shooting at each other. And unfortunately, I believe, I
argue in the book that Abraham Lincoln actually had a vision.
He said at his second in Argle address, he said,
with malice towards none, we will bind up the wounds
of this nation. Another learned man who read he's autodidactic.
(16:16):
I mean he learned all on is. He had six
weeks of formal schooling in his entire life. And he
was one of the most well read presidents we ever had.
And he had a plan to bring us back together.
And of course he was murdered. And the sad thing
is I argue in the book that of among all
the casualties we had in the Civil War, among those
(16:37):
was common sense realism, because we never fully unified behind
a philosophy after the Civil War. And when I get
asked folks to explain this, I said, in some ways,
it's like the Game of Thrones. If the listeners out
there know that one of the under the overriding themes
of the Game of Thrones is who is the one
rightful heir?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I mean, we go through status, we go through all
this right, well, after the Civil War, our intellectuals all
argue that they are the rightful heir to common sense realism,
but they're like, they're so far apart. So you have
new American intellectuals that are what's now this burgeoning group
that's called progressives, right, and they're very influenced by German idealism,
(17:20):
Hegel and others, Max Weber who writes so in. Among
those is woodgew Wilson talk about him in a second.
But then on the other side you have what you
would describe as libertarianism, which is logical positivism. And here
you have William Graham Sumner and he's writing about what
social classes all each other, which he basically says it's nothing.
(17:40):
So you have these two choices, but they are just
polar opposites when in fact common sense realism. If you
think about what Lincoln was for, he was for union,
he was for separating and checking power, but he also
built railroads, right, So this was a different kind of
philosophy about how to proceed. And we lost. We lost.
We didn't lose the spirit. I want to be clear
(18:01):
about this. The spirit has never died, but it has
largely become dormant.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Now, going back to the Toko, one of his observations
was he had never seen people, common people engaging with
their government. Big Pacific engagement, absolutely big deal.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And he said, there's no analogy for this in Europe.
He said, when when a problem emerges, and this is
even in the eighteen thirties, now.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, he said, yeah, you know, this is when it
was really flourishing.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So so yeah, so exactly, and he was he was
blown away by this. But when we had when when
problems were arising in local communities in France, which is
where he was from, he was actually part of the aristocracy. Actually,
ironically enough, people went to their government, their local bureaucracy,
which was burgeoning in Europe at the time. In America,
(18:51):
they didn't even go to the to the government, They
just went to their neighbors. He does give this sort
of description of issues in Pennsylvania and how they people
came together and helped this family and need. And there's
a major demarcation here. There's a major change that's occurring.
But after the Civil War, you know, Woodow Wilson writes
his dissertation, he's one of the first doctorates from Johns
(19:15):
Hopkins University. He writes this in the mid and he
initially starts researching it and writing in the early eighteen eighties.
But he's arguing in his dissertation that the Founders got
it exactly wrong. He said, the Founders, well, their view
on human nature was too pessimistic, and therefore they made
mistakes when it came to power. This whole idea of
(19:35):
separation of powers, he called it onerous. And he said
this extensive. He called it over use of checks and balances. Well,
really that's just stands in the way. You know, this
is Wilson. Now, he's saying that, look, with the advent
of the Industrial Age, we have urbanization, modernization, you know,
new technology, and we have new social, socioeconomic problems attendant.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
To the new age.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And here we have this legacy of the found We
need to scrap it. We need to replace the Founding
principles with a new set of ideas. So Wilson's writing
about this. He looks to take action when he's the
president of Princeton College, Princeton University, and then he becomes
President of the United States. And I do have a
section in the book, right and I'm trying to do
(20:18):
this clinically. I mean, I mean people who've known me
a long time. No, I don't agree with Woods or Wilson,
but I'm trying to write it. I'm trying to be
fair to his argument before I then critique it, which
I'm rather critical, but I try to present it in
the most neutral fashion I can, because even to this day,
there are Americans who believe in progressivism. But what I'm
arguing is, look, before there was progressivism, there was liberalism
(20:42):
and conservatism under common sense realism. So liberal and conservatism
were ideologies that nested nicely under common sense realism, and
they were displaced by progressivism on the one hand, and
then really this logical positivism, which might modern day libertarianism.
So you know, the book is really the America's story here,
(21:05):
and it so Wilson initially moves us on this, but
the reality is this, since that time, particularly in this century,
this last twenty five years, both political parties have been
behind strengthening the power of the federal government and moving
that loki of power into one person, the President of
the United States. I mean today, you know, you listen
(21:26):
to the talking heads and you'd think that you know,
Trump supporters and Trump haters are like one hundred and
eighty degrees out on this, when in fact, the one
thing at the big picture they agree upon is they
want strong presidents. They I mean, the Trump supporters want
Trump to have I mean, you saw the arguments for
immunity before the Summer Court and the idea that gorek
(21:47):
shouldn't be checked. So so, I mean, there was a
time when the Republican Party really believed in real limited
government and really moving the power down. Where we have
now is both political parties. One's enamored by progressivism and
the other by a cultural movement populism, which, by the way,
I understand, coming from rural upstate New York, I get
a populist impulse, and I actually support a lot of
(22:09):
the ideas within populism, but I do it within founding
principles that we should still separate power, check and keep
it accountable.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Right, And so let's take a short break, our last break.
When we come back, let's build on that and talk
about you know, Woodrow Wilson and his time was probably
the precursor to where we are today, looking at scrapping
the fundamentals that were built by the founders of this
country and how do we get back? And you have
a number of wonderful reform ideas in the book, which
(22:38):
we agree on, probably ninety eight percent of them. How
do we get back to a government of the people,
by the people, and for the people. Amen, we'll come
back after this short break for life happens here on
fourth of July weekend with the author of the Spirit
of Philadelphia, Chris Gibson. Chris, this is fascinating for me
(23:00):
and being a history buff and someone who follows current
events politics and looks at history and putting it all
in context. This book does it in a remarkable way.
So if you haven't read The Spirit of Philadelphia, how
can they find it again?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, well it's you go to either Amazon or Rutledge,
but you can go to my website, the Spirit of
Philadelphia dot com. You can learn more and you can
order the book right there on my website. You can
also send me a message I'd love to hear from.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You, and they can contact you through the website.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, there's a way, the Spirit of Philadelphia dot Com.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And I haven't taken calls today, but if you have
thoughts on what we're talking about, certainly get them to
Congressman Gibson, Former Congressman Gibson. Yeah, go by Chris scholar
Gibson now and author and Chris, we're following through on
the progression from ancient Greece and the democracy that they had,
the failure of Greece, the failure of Rome, the United States,
(23:52):
where it picks up in our founding fathers, and now
throughout the course of history. You mentioned Lincoln, you mentioned
Woodrow Wilson, follow that through to where we are and
what we really need to be thinking about as a
nation and as a society.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So let me just say right up front, I get
this moment we're in, having grown up in upstate New York.
I mean, and I mean part of the reason why
I had a challenge in my time serving as I
tried to explain what was going on to John Bayner,
the former Speaker of the House, and I never really
did get through to him. I voted against him and
his last, you know, candidacy to be Speaker. But I said, look,
(24:29):
you're not listening to what the people are saying. Increasingly,
folks were disenchanted and losing faith and trust in institutions
and leaders. This opened up the space for a populist
message and for the candidate Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
And to run success is something well.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, and I mean that's certainly part of this here.
But I mean Trump spoke to what people were thinking,
you know, the fact that the system was rigged. I
wish I could tell you, Lou, I'm looking right at you.
I wish I could tell you the system wasn't rigged.
But I know it to be rigged. I mean it's
rigged for people with money and close ties to people
in power. And so what I think we need to
(25:09):
do is we need to restore trust in faith in
our republic, which means we need a series of reforms.
This is you alluded to it right before the last break.
So the last third of the book, the first two
thirds of the book is about philosophy and history, history
and philosophy, and I really hope you read it and
think about it. And because today it's like a meat grinder.
(25:31):
Everybody says, are you pro Trumper against Trump? You know,
I mean, that's not what I'm doing here. I'm trying
to reach everybody.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Take a pause, you take a step back, pause, take
a step feel under attacklemost on a daily basis the
information that's being pushed on us.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Well, and the point is that I get the moment
we're in. I understand, you know, but I'm also saying,
let's take a step back and take a look at
what we should do now and how do we restore
trust in faith? So look, I mean, we have to
recognize there's another tooral industrial complex.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
It there just is.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And doesn't mean I didn't love some of my former colleagues,
because I did. But the fact of the matter is
is there is a wide collaboration for those that get
to write the tax code, write the laws.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I mean so and yeah, oh you're talking money, dark money, obvious,
big time power behind the power.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
So you know, what I'm arguing here is that we
need to we need term limits. Look, and you know,
we actually had term limits in the Articles of Confederation
and some say, well, the founders change their mind on it,
and that's why it's not in the constitution. That's actually
not true. Incidentally, if you're looking for it in the articles,
because I think some of the folks out there are
gonna be curious about it, it's actually called rotation of
office in the articles, and it actually lays out some
(26:43):
stipulations on how when you can serve Stanford to be
a candidate and run. But the founders didn't give up
on it. They just chose a why, entire an entirely
different philosophical way to write a constitution. And how do
we know this because like George Washington, he makes a
con his choice to self impose term limits at two
(27:04):
and he did that because he knew every action was
going to set a precedent and he wanted to make
the state the bold statement, the clear statement that we
were meant to serve for a season and go back home.
And I actually learned through experience that you need to
write this in a way because look, I get that
folks don't want to give up power voluntary. There's a
way to do this, I explained in the book the
(27:26):
way we can enact termlins.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
We actually got.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
You know, there were last time there was a vote,
because you know, it needs a vote in the House
and the Senate two thirds there, it goes to the
states three quarters of them ratified, it becomes an amendment
to the Constitution. We actually had pluralities in both the
House and the Senate, but it didn't rise to the
two thirds level. I think the way you got to
do term limits is is you say their grandfather did
you say? Look that when you vote for this amendment,
(27:51):
it will go into a fact when the next representative
from that district is sent to Washington, That's when it
kicks in, and then I think we can get term lie.
I also argue for independent redistricting. I mean, part of
the reason why we're so divided today is we have
this illusion that we pick our representatives when too often
actually representatives picked their voters, and they do it in
(28:12):
a bipart of some collusion way every ten years. And
when we do the redistricting process.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
You were in Congress and your congressional district was a
snake and it had all kinds of shapes.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, the interesting thing about that, louse, I actually was
the only Republican in New York State that got weaker
from the redistrict king. And I never complained about it
because I didn't believe I should be picking my voters.
And I think in some ways the Lord was looking
down because in my last election, I was in a
district that President Barack Obama carried twice. He carried it
by seven points, and I beat that billionaire by almost
(28:42):
thirty points, So I think in some ways there was
some justice there. But you know, the point is, we
need independent redistricting and we also need campaign finance reformre
We've got to do this. We have the spirit, part
of the spirit of our democracy. We are actually republic,
but with the democratic principles underlying that republic is one person,
one vote, when in reality, the more money you have
(29:03):
in the closer year to power, the more influential your
vote is. And that should change. So I also think
we need to go through the tax code. That's a
big issue. We needed trade reform. Look that it's not surprisingly.
I mean a number of the things that President Trump
successfully campaign for president on are actually helpful to our
We need trade reform. I mean, there are tactics. How
(29:24):
you do it does matter too, but the fact is
that for too long, the trade system really helped Wall Street,
It really helped those with money and interest, and President
Trump has made that an issue and he was right
about that. We need to look at our foreign policy.
You know, we're a republic. We're not meant to start wars.
You know, if we get attacked, we're certainly going to
finish them. On our terms. I think we need the
(29:46):
War Powers Reform Act. You know, we need to look
at the way we enact bureaucratic rules. I mean, we
now have an unelected bureaucracy foisting that upon us. It
needs to be accountable. How do you make that accountable?
You make the Congress take votes on.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It up or down. Executive orders have become the order
of the day. So get the government runs well.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
And by the way, this is well before I know
we're talking about it now and the Trump administration, but
this has been an issue. If you go back to
actually Woodrow Wilson and everything thereafter, you see what's what
political scientists call the growth of the imperial presidency. These
books like Schlessinger wrote this, I mean, folks will know
that's a really old name. Yeah, I mean the Imperial
(30:25):
Presidency was written fifty years forty fifty years and.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You talk about your conversations with John Bayner, that's long.
Oh yeah, President Trump became presidents.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
And what it relates to what we're talking about here
this morning is how do we array power? And what
we need to do is take a step back and
realize the founders were right. And incidentally, this is this
whole book is not about going back. This is about
going forward with the right principles. Yes, what the founders
did was time honored. I mean, so we we recover
(30:55):
these principles, and I'm saying that these are best Jazers
I'm still hap to miss. I think our best days
are still in front of us. I have the series
of reforms. Folks can read it. And as some of
the endorsers, I've been blessed. Victor Davis Hanson endorsed the book.
Lou Irwin endorsed the book. They happen to come from
two different political perspectives, but they both believe that this
(31:16):
book is important.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Absolutely. And you were part of a group in Washington
that I'm part of and was and still am. And
it's called no Labels and something called the Problem Solvers Caucus. Yeah,
why does that have to be a unique body. Why
can't that be all of Congress?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well it should be, I mean by ethic, right, so
you can have strong conservative principles and know that we
need to work together. The whole point of rebalancing the
power is it requires us to work together. You know,
I mentioned at the outset of my interview here this
morning that that was the unexpected gift. When they had
to work together to fix the defects of the articles,
(31:52):
they actually created the spirit of Philadelphia. Right, And if
we rebalance and require us instead of just doing executive
changed by Fiat. And incidentally, at the moment we were
talking about President Trump, but I mean, it wasn't that
long ago what President Obama said, I've got a pen
and I've got a phone. I've got a phone, and
I got a pen, and if I need to enact
change that way. And I remember my supporters they were
(32:13):
very upset they were talking about and peaching them over that.
And what he was really talking about was executive orders.
And I think we've come to rely too much on that.
We need to rebalance that. And then also, Lou, I've
got a chapter on us, like actually chapter eleven. It's
called Notes for us, we the people, because we have
to recognize that our role in this republic is to
(32:35):
be educated, informed, and engaged in education.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think doesn't mean college necessarily incased. He how do
we reach people? And there is a way to reach
people today that is more pervasive than anything Woodrow Wilson
could ever dream of. We can get to them on
a second to second basis.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Absolutely, and that is the information age, which is the
double edged sword. Right, But you're right, I mean there's
a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
How do we recapture that?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Well, I think what we need, what I'm trying to
do with this book is really just rekindle the love
for our country, to realize how special we change the
world for the better. The Spirit of Philadelphia changed the
arc of human history for the better. Let's recover this,
Let's reawaken.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
The Spirit of Philadelphia. Please check it out.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Hit my website, the Spirit of Philadelphia dot com, reread it,
think about it, send me a note.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Chris Gibson, thank you so much for thank you time.
God bless the listeners out there too. Happy Birthday listening,
Happy fourth of July. We hope you listen every Saturday
morning at at nine am here on talk radio WGY.
The Spirit of Philadelphia
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