Innovating the Future with XPRIZE’s Elaine Hungenberg

This week on Rule Breaker Investing, David welcomes Elaine Hungenberg, Senior VP of Partnerships & Impact at XPRIZE. Elaine explains how XPRIZE’s unique competition model sparks world-changing innovations, from space exploration to clean water solutions. In this lively conversation, discover how prize-driven innovation accelerates breakthroughs, hear about some of the most exciting XPRIZE projects, and learn valuable lessons from Elaine’s journey as a thoughtful disrupter. Tune in for a deep dive into creating impact, followed by our always fun, signature round of Buy, Sell, Hold!   Host: David Gardner Guest: Elaine Hungenberg Producer: Desirée Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The day before somethingis truly a breakthrough,
it's a crazy idea.
That observation comesfrom Peter Diamandis,
the founder of theXPRIZE Foundation.
XPRIZE.
Heard of it?
You might be familiar withXprize for its bold challenges
like sending private roversto the moon or developing
solutions for clean water.

(00:21):
The prize part is millions,
sometimes hundreds of millionsof dollars offered as a prize
to teams of researchers andentrepreneurs that managed to
deliver an innovativereal world solution,
a crazy idea brought to fruition
in competition with many others,
generally by a preset deadline.

(00:42):
Well, I've got alot of cool friends.
And one of my coolest is Elaine,
the senior vice presidentof partnerships and impacts for
the XPRIZE Foundation.
Given that such a big focus ofRule Breaker Investing is on
the rule breaking part.
Finding the dreamerswho are also the doers.
Breaking the rules of thestatus quo and bringing amazing

(01:04):
innovations to market.
I know you're gonna enjoy mylively conversation with Elaine
Hungenberg talkingxPRISE only on this
week's Rule Breaker Investing.
It's the Rule Breaker Investingpodcast with Motley Fool
cofounder David Gardner.

(01:24):
You know, I view one of my jobsto be done every week for you,
my Rule Breaker Investingpodcast listener,
is to introduce you to friendsof mine who will help make you
have helped make me smarter,happier, and richer.
You know, like mentor, teacher,and entrepreneur, Rand Stegen,
someone truly playing the longgame in business who joined

(01:45):
with us last month,or Bill Burke,
founder of the OptimismInstitute earlier this year.
I reminded you last week ofBill's distinction between
optimism and hope.
Namely, that optimism describesa belief that things will work
out specifically because youbelieve the odds are on your side.
This is deeply rootedin the American spirit.

(02:07):
Whereas hope, another beautifuland necessary state of mind,
is for those times when youhope things will work out
despite the odds notbeing on your side.
Optimism versus hope,
a distinction you can keepwith you your whole life long.
This week's guest also comes froma deep rule breaker tradition.
But in this case,
Elaine Hugenberg is working in andamong innovators, entrepreneurs,

(02:32):
scientists, crazypeople with crazy ideas,
well viewed as crazy the day beforesomething becomes a breakthrough.
You know, like this past weekwhen reimplanting refurbished stem
cells into a young womanwith diabetes type one,
reimplanting her own stem cellsappears now more than a year

(02:52):
later to have reversed,solved her diabetes.
If this holds, what waspreviously a crazy idea could
become a reality formillions of people worldwide.
Well, I don't know thatthe XPRIZE was behind that one,
but, certainly, theXPRIZE Foundation,
since it first popped up onthe map in nineteen ninety six ish,

(03:14):
shares this samespirit of breakthrough,
but with monetaryprizes attached.
My friend, Elaine Hungenberg,
oversees all of thefoundation's partners and also
measures impact.
And, Elaine, it is a delight tohave you join us this week on Rule
Breaker Investing.
I'm so happy to be here, David.It's so much fun already.

(03:34):
I know. And we're gonna haveeven more fun than that.
Let's get started right away.
Now not everyone isfamiliar with the x price.
I asked a random friend to say,have you heard of the x price?
And my random friend,Julia, said, no.
I've not heard of thex price. So here we go.
For those unfamiliar, Elaine,
can you give us a quickoverview of what the
organization does and itsunique approach to innovation

(03:54):
through competition?
Yeah.
So XPRIZE has one of the mostincredible models out there.
It's a platform thatdesigns and runs global competitions
to drive innovativesolutions for,
the world's biggest problems.
First, we identify agrand challenge, climate change,

(04:15):
Alzheimer's, biodiversitymonitoring, wildfire.
Right?
We identify a challenge that webelieve the normal marketplace
isn't going to solve or isn'tgoing to solve fast enough in
the time that weneed it to be solved.
Then we create aprize with a monetary
incentive, and that'sthe prize purse.
Right?
That's your carrot.

(04:36):
And then we let the innovativeminds around the world compete.
In essence, wecrowdsource solutions.
I think what makes us a little bitdifferent and what I need to say,
to the world out there isthat our challenge platform is
different because itfosters open innovation
on a large scaleacross industry sector,

(04:56):
and it's funded by privateand philanthropic sources,
which allows fora more disruptive
outcome driven, breakthrough.
And we also use a rigor in ourtesting and validation that
other price platformsand governments don't do.
So we're gonna goset fires. Right?
Where our health span prize isgonna have teams in clinical trials.
We we have a rigor in testingthat then derisks the solutions

(05:20):
so that they can scalein the marketplace after.
Xfrize has been aroundfor thirty years.
We've had thirtyprizes in thirty years,
over half a billiondollars in price purses.
That is phenomenal. I didnot know it's at that scale.
I knew it wassomething like that,
but I love it when we putreal numbers to things.
You know, Elaine,
it occurs to me that you occupya really interesting place.

(05:43):
Because on the one hand, asyou describe what you're doing,
I'm like, wait. Isn'tthat just venture capital?
Isn't there an entire industry?
Isn't there an entire culture setup to fund entrepreneurs with ideas?
Then on the other hand, alot of people say, well,
but that's in partwhat governments do.
And some people would saythe government really got the
Internet started. Soapparently, there is a gap.

(06:04):
There's a space in between thenormal marketplace of venture
capital and then what wewould ask of our governments.
Could you speak to that a bit?
Yeah.
I think I think there's also aplace when you're talking about
nation marketplaces.
Right?
So when you're talking abouta brand new place where even
governments or or the normalVC sector is is hesitant

(06:27):
to to transverse.
Right? And that's really wherethe nexus of xfries lives.
Right?
It's it's finding theseareas where there's hesitancy
in the normal capital market,
and we give them anincentive to play there.
Right?
And we and we give theman avenue to to show off,
to validate, to be recognizedin a way that then allows

(06:51):
every other partof the ecosystem
to come play too.
And and it's I'll I'llgive you an example,
and maybe we cancarry this through.
The very first prize, becausex price is very difficult.
I think an example will help.
The very first prizewas our Ansari prize,
and that was Peter Diamandis'
great idea to make space availableto normal private citizens.

(07:15):
Space was agovernment landscape.
People didn't go to space.
There wasn't even privatespace launch licenses.
You literally couldn't go.
It was it was a a landscapefor China and the US.
Right?
Well, we decided that wewere gonna have a prize,
and we wanted someone to go tospace twice in fourteen days.
And so we dangle a tenmillion dollar prize.

(07:36):
Ten million dollars.
There were twenty seventeams that compete in.
They invested a hundredmillion dollars building their
spacecraft just to winten million dollars.
That the winner of the Ansarix prize, Virgin Galactic,
had an IPO worth overtwo billion dollars.
This space industry,
the private space industrytoday is gonna hit a trillion

(07:59):
dollars by twenty forty.
You're talking about a prize thatcompletely transformed the world.
Right? That doesn't happenwithout this type of model.
It's such a great example, andI'm glad you started there.
I needed to go to Wikipedia,
one of my best friends on theInternet, my friend, Wikipedia,
to remind me it wasnineteen ninety six.

(08:20):
And Peter Diamant hasbasically said, hey.
Here's ten milliondollars I'm putting it up.
And you're so right to connectthat through to today where
we're almost taking for granted thatspace is for all of us and
especially the private sector,
which will always greatlyoutnumber in most countries the
public sector, andsometimes we forget that.
But the privatesector is massive,

(08:41):
and it is now amassive opportunity,
which we're seeingcommercialization
take place in manydifferent forms today.
And, yeah, I think we can look backtwenty eight years ago to that vision.
And, of course, Peter Diamandis,
who also started SingularityUniversity, a separate topic.
We probably won'tgo there today,
but this is really one ofour great entrepreneurs and

(09:01):
visionary thinkers.
And not just though a thinker,
as I really let off at thetop here, I love dreamers,
but I also I I kindaneed them to be doers.
And so that's something Ireally appreciate about the
xPRIZE and xPRIZE foundation.
Now the model, Elaine, I mean,I keep underlining crazy ideas.
I'm using Peter'sown words here.
You gave an exampleof the original one,

(09:23):
and you've lightly spoken tosome of the other ones that
you've done over time.
But I love these stories,and there are a lot of them.
Give me give us anotherexample of XPRIZE
doing something specialin the world at large.
I have so many to choose from.
This is probably the hardestquestion you'll throw at me,
but I'm gonna gowith wildfire prize.
The world is on fire,

(09:44):
and wildfire technology reallyhasn't been touched since the
nineteen eighties.
Right?
And so xPRIZE has come tothis prize model of innovation
in wildfire technology.
And the winning team statementis very simple and digestible.
Someone has to createsomething that can autonomously
detect a dangerous wildfirewithin a thousand square

(10:07):
kilometers, and they haveto detect a dangerous wildfire.
So they can't the the thetech has to have the machine
learning to identify adangerous wildfire versus an
eco friendly wildfireversus a decoy ag fire.
Right?
So it has to havethe machine learning and and intelligence
to know thedifference, detect it,

(10:28):
and then autonomously suppressit under ten minutes without
human intervention.
That's the moonshot ideabecause then you can imagine
you have a heat mapof fire risk areas,
and you can goplace this wildfire technology every
thousand square kilometers, andyou forevermore not lowered and

(10:48):
reduced the number ofcatastrophic wildfires.
You've ended catastrophicwildfires. That's a moonshot.
That's prize worthy.
And and when yousee these teams,
we have everything fromautonomous vehicles to
Blackhawk, autonomoushelicopters being being,
applied and registered.

(11:09):
It's going to be gamechanging in this space.
And the consortium that isfunding it would make so many
people really happy.
It's a philanthropicconsortium of foundations,
of insurance companies, ofcorporations, of governments,
And it's when you canbe mission forward

(11:30):
and have that type of passion,
that's how you youattract the right people.
Really appreciatethat point, Elaine.
And especially persuasive to me isthat global kind of cross border,
view of things.
So, I mean, venture capitalcan kind of go anywhere,
but tends to concentrate incertain places, understandably.
And then governmentshave their well,

(11:51):
they they got their own sovereignborders that they have to respect.
So the opportunity tooffer something global
and have all humans competingfor something good that helps
human flourishing orhelps our environment,
which also helps humanflourishing is really special.
I was thinking aboutthe Nobel Prize.
If I have my math right,I think the Nobel Prize,

(12:12):
in addition tobeing prestigious, awards,
I think it's Swedish kroner,
but I think it's the equivalentof around a million dollars.
Now I don't I'm not trying tocreate a a spit match here, Elaine,
but they're only offering amillion dollars over there at
the Nobel Foundation.
It seems to me that you allare offering much bigger purses

(12:32):
for, I would say, in someways, more practical,
hands on, reallyeveryday huge challenges.
Are you trying to disruptthe Nobel Foundation?
No.
We need the Nobel Foundation,so thank you for that question.
We actually consider ourselvesa bridge from research to
practical application.

(12:52):
Right? And so we love theresearch that comes out.
We love the researchthat says, hey.
If someone could create this,
I can trend out and modelthat it will solve x, y, or z.
Right? We lean on that research.
We love that research.
But what we do is we applythat to real life situations

(13:12):
and rigor in there'sa chasm, right,
between research for research'ssake and theory and how it's
applied and how itworks in the real world.
And there is, and that's okay.
And we just we we arejust the bridge for that.
I really appreciate thatpositioning as bridge.
I think you're helpingus visualize exactly how the

(13:32):
XPRIZE Foundation fitsinto the into the world.
So, Elaine, your job let'slet's go to your work now.
You're the senior vice presidentof partnerships and impact.
Now I would say either of thoseon its own is a big challenge.
I they somehow have gotten youto do both of those things.
Let's start withpartnerships first.
You're at the heart of connectingthe XPRIZE to an ecosystem.

(13:55):
You've got supporters. You havecompetitors. You have alumni.
And I'm just curious,
how do you ensure thatthese partnerships
don't just create thepossibilities of a prize,
but have lasting impact?
Oh, David.
The answer to this makes youand I kindred spirits, I think.
My answer could easily beall about my staff doing post

(14:17):
prize support or engagementtactics or policy advocacy or
knowledge dissemination.
But I would argue that partnersthat I've had for years that
have followed me, that havejoined me in other work,
that they're lasting partnersbecause of one one thing,
and that's a shared passion.
Right?
I I ensure you XPRIZEpartnerships have a lasting

(14:40):
impact by ensuring we have a a sharedbelief and alignment of values.
And these partnerships oftenstem from a deep and mutual
commitment to solving thesame global challenges,
which then drive long termcollaboration even after
competition ends.
Sure. And I think, you know,it's how I met you. Right?

(15:01):
It's why we're friends.
It's why we're colleagues.
Your passion, David, iswhat draws me to you.
It's why I haven't left yousince the day I met you.
I have full confidence yourfoundation will succeed not not
only because the staffis just brilliant,
but because you will leadwith a passion that others,
you know, they won't beable to turn away from.

(15:22):
And when you when you canspeak with passion and you believe in
what you're doing,
then your partners aren'tpartners for some short term gain.
Right? They're there with you.
It's like, you know, you'remy flame and I'm your moth,
and and together, we're gonnamake financial freedom a thing,
and and we're gonna do it.
Right?
And I have no doubt,
but it's not because yougave me some brilliant newsletter,

(15:44):
right, or you had someengagement tactic.
It's because I believein what you're doing,
because you believein what you're doing,
and I can feel that.
Thank you verymuch, Elaine. Yeah.
In in some ways,
you're pointing something wemight tap into a little bit
later, which is theMotley Fool Foundation.
And part of thereason I know Elaine,
although it predated this,
was she is on our MotleyFool Foundation board,
and we're very honored tohave her leadership and

(16:07):
participation now loadthese several years.
Elaine, describe for me when wewhen I say partnerships or partners,
what is an example of a longterm partner or a a great
partner for theXPRIZE Foundation?
Oh, gosh. There's so many.
I'm not trying to make youpick your favorite child here,
but just give us an example of oneof the awesome kids that you oversee.

(16:29):
I'm actually going tothink about research.
We have a brilliantpartnership with Rand Corp.
They are a think tank.
XPRIZE is not playing a gamewhere someone comes with us
with a check and is like, hey.
Run this prize because it'sgonna be self serving to me.
Right?
We want to runprizes because they're thoughtfully curated.

(16:53):
And you and I, you'rethe one, David,
that taught me have a Motley.
My Motley is athoughtful disruptor.
You cannot have a thoughtfullycurated prize design without
a load of subject matterexperts behind you.
Right? And Rand isgiving us those experts.
They serve on our brain trustin every single one of our

(17:14):
domains from space to healthto learning in society to
biodiversity and conservation,
and it's their expertise thathelps our prize architects
design something of value.
And if the prize isn't designedintentionally and correctly, don't have it.
Yeah.
It it feels like that languageis so important, Elaine.

(17:36):
Like, as you as youexplained the wildfire prize,
you have very specificstrictures there.
And I can imagine as a languageperson, I know you're one too.
Like, the words really count.
I mean, if you have hundreds ofmillions of dollars online and
lots of competing teams,
you need to make sureyou've thoughtfully
curated the exact like, it'sbasically the game rules,

(17:57):
and you're setting therules as a game designer.
I can imagine Rand isan incredible partner.
I was just checking again.
Certainly, I've we've all heard.
I mean, many of us who loveinnovation are aware of Rand.
I didn't remember though itwas nineteen forty eight.
And but, you know,
this is a this is a nonprofitglobal policy think tank.
Makes so much sense thatthey're a great partner for you.

(18:18):
Let me shift gears briefly,staying on the same subject,
but, like, where doesall the money come from?
When you're offeringthese these gaudy prizes,
whose money is that?
Very kind heartedpeople in the world,
whether they're fromgovernment or otherwise.
But, it is I think I alluded tothe wildfire having a consortium.
That is, sometimes the case.

(18:40):
Other times, our large carbonremoval prize right now is
funded entirely by Elon Musk.
He, has generously given us a hundredmillion dollar prize purse for that.
Wow. Our health span prizehas nineteen sponsors.
Everything from theprivate sector to single
ultra high net worthindividual benefactors.

(19:02):
And so our water scarcity prize,
which is our largest prize ever,
a hundred and nineteen milliondollars in prize purse,
is funded by the UAE governmentand a foundation that,
they've created withintheir government.
So, it's the gamut, I think,
that speaks volumes ofXPRIZE and their value prop.
Right?
If you can if you can attractand actually bring into your

(19:25):
tent people from every sector,
you're doing somethingthat many have, you know,
failed to failed to do.
That is phenomenal.
We probably have peoplelistening who are funding in
some cases or might be interestedin funding in other cases, Alintza.
I'm curious. What isthe minimum prize?
What is the minimum amount ofmoney that you would stand up

(19:46):
an x prize for?
So it's thoughtfully curated justlike the architecture of the prize.
We want to
that we want the prize first tobe enough money to incentivize
the innovation Yeah.
To reward that innovativemindset and to have enough left
over where they can goto market potentially.
Right? And so but ourprizes are very versatile.

(20:07):
We have small term, one year,
one million dollar competitions.
We have five year, fivemillion dollar competitions.
We have very large ones becausethe tech that they're building
is large in scope.
Right?
And because werigorously test them,
this isn't a whitepaper that they submit.
Right?
Carbon removal is a hundredmillion dollars because they're

(20:28):
building massive infrastructureto remove carbon from the
Earth. Right? It needsto be a hundred million.
Health span is a hundred plusmillion because they have to be
in human clinicaltrials by year five.
That is massively audacious.
Elaine, confirm for mesomething I've always imagined.
Is this fun?

(20:48):
Like, you are this is thisis unbelievably interesting.
Like, are you are you constantlytraveling, hoofing it,
like meeting with partners andhaving people propose new prizes?
Or how do you spend howdo you allocate your time?
By the way, we're gonnaget to impact very shortly,
but we're still justtalking about partnerships.
David, you and I believe in thepower of social capital and that two

(21:08):
heads are better than one.
And the partnershipsthat we have,
everyone every testimonial Iget after they've worked with
XPRIZE is thanksfor the freedom of
intellectual thought.
And I I will tell youthat in day to day,
it's everyone has guardrails.
They are working inside a boxwhether they know it or not

(21:29):
most of the time.
XPRIZE gives them thisability to think outside
the box, to have moonshots,
to to engage in conversationthat is let's go farm on
Mars yesterday. Right?
Let's go build a batterythat is eco friendly,
whatever it is.
And so, yeah, there I getto travel. I get to visit them.

(21:51):
I was just at Climate Week inNew York City last week with
with large partners, YPO andand some of the the world's
leading CEOs, and they werecoming up with their own
moonshots, right, in a room.
And and doing so for the firsttime, some of them, you know,
much older than I, finallythinking outside of outside of

(22:13):
their business model to be like,
what do I want my legacy to be?
And it's what you're doing,David, now with the foundation.
Right?
And I would argue what consciouscapitalism is also trying to do.
I really appreciatethose connections.
And conscious capitalism,
I'm always inspired by becauseit's it basically is about
creating a win for everybody,
and that's that's what Ithink the XPRIZE Foundation is
helping to fill thatthat gap because, yeah,

(22:34):
venture capital does exist.
It is usually much more focusedand much more immediate and not
as inclusive, and there'snot as wide a net being cast.
But I think part of what I'mparticularly appreciating let's
talk about impact now, Elaine.
But what I'm particularly appreciatingis just that sense of possibility.
Like, you've already spoken tomany of the world's greatest needs

(22:55):
or troubles right now.
And so that awareness,
seeing the whole waterfrontfrom your position,
especially as senior VP ofpartnerships at the XPRIZE Foundation,
but just XPRIZE Foundationoverall is is so inspiring.
Let's talk some about about impactnow because for some reason,
Peter Diamandis and team alsomade you in charge of impact.

(23:16):
And so you're you'rethinking about measuring
success, thinkingprobably not just
locally, but globally,
and you need to make sureit's positive change.
I can imagine sometimes thereare unintended consequences
that can pop up as a consequenceof a great idea well funded.
But describe forme how you ensure

(23:37):
impact is happeningand that it's positive.
I mean, it's complicated.Right? And it's hard.
Measuring long termimpact is hard.
I think sometimes wherenonprofits and foundations fail
is they measure veryshort term gains.
Right?
And they do so because theirgrantor requires them to do so.
XPRIZE is committedto long term gains.

(23:59):
Committed might be avery generous phrase.
We need, to measureit long term because
the impact we makeis there's a lag.
Right? The Ansariprize I just mentioned.
It took twenty nine years to getto a a trillion dollar industry.
But I would argue, ifyou look at that, David,
ten million dollar investment,

(24:19):
trillion dollar industrythirty years later,
That's an ROI that'sunheard of. Right?
And so we really take into accountwhat we call a price per ROI.
We understand that anychange needs to have
an incentive, and ithas to have an ROI.
We have a very rigoroustheory of change model,

(24:40):
that's been curatedover thirty years.
It has four pillars. I'mgonna say them briefly.
The first is innovation,the second is awareness,
The third is validation,and the fourth one is scale.
So, obviously, the prizeincentivizes innovation.
Innovation is measuredby research and development,
patents, thought peerreviewed journal articles.

(25:02):
The second is awareness, andI'll give you an example.
The very first carbon prize,
we had a carbonsequestration prize.
Carbon removal at the launchof the prize had only been
mentioned less thanone percent in media.
Right? It wasn't even a thing.
After the prize, carbon removaltoday is a layman's term.

(25:23):
Right?
It doesn't matter if you'retrying to solve a problem and
you have a solution ifthe public doesn't know it's a
problem, if the public doesn'tknow a solution exists.
So awareness for us is just asimportant as the innovation.
And then the thirdis validation.
We've talked aboutthe rigor and testing.
And I think that's somethingalso as a VC or someone in

(25:45):
stocks, you know, can attest.
It's really important that yourtech does what it says it can
do and that it cando it at scale.
So we measure validation.
We've catalyzedcompletely new metrics.
We had
a automotive progressiveautomotive prize.
It was the firstelectrical car, prize.
At the point in which we weremeasuring and validating the

(26:08):
tech, miles per gallonequivalent didn't exist.
So MPGE didn't exist.
So the value of that rigor,
the value of standardstandard metrics,
in a field are are veryworthwhile to us also.
And then the last one is scale.
And, David, pre prize, ourteams have raised about,

(26:29):
you know, five hundredmillion dollars.
So if you take the cohort ofteams that have ever competed
and you look at them pre prize,
they've they've raisedabout five hundred million.
During and post prize,
they've raised upwardsof five billion dollars.
And so you talkabout the incentive
prize competition platformbeing an intervention,

(26:50):
a catalyst to scale.
It's magnificent.
Right?
Really appreciate you sharingthat theory of change.
I like the four pillars.I like transparency.
And so just sharing some of thenumbers and goals and stories,
Elaine, I know we're gonnado some more of that.
But I wanna shift now just tohear a little bit more from you
because as much as I love humanflourishing in a grand way,

(27:11):
I also love one by onehumans that flourish,
something I try to featureevery week on this podcast.
Elaine, where'd you grow up andwhat were a couple of takeaways from
your youth thatremain, I might say,
foundational to you as an adult?
Yeah.
I grew up in a very smalltown on the Massachusetts,
New Hampshire border to two lovingparents who worked very hard,

(27:37):
and my twin sister.
I think the biggest takeaways.
Okay. I got one.
Takeaway number one,
which probably has an indirectspillover to every other takeaway,
is to travel.
And travel not necessarilyto faraway new places,
which I do think is importantto meet as many cultures as you

(27:57):
can, but to travelin your community.
Right?
My mother instilled in me adeep rooted take care of your
neighbor philosophy.
We used to do Saint Vincentde Paul every Sunday after church
where we would go down to thebasement of the church, get,
food pantry orders ready,
and we would actually take them to thehomes of the people in my community.

(28:20):
And I guess this allleads to empathy.
So I guess if my takeawayfor as a mother now or as a
friend or supervisor or achange maker in the world,
is empathy.
I don't think anyonedoes anything altruistic
without an understanding and and aa grain of empathy in their body.

(28:41):
And so it can be taught.
There's there's there'sresearch out there that shows
empathy can be taught.
I think that when you areable to meet someone who who
doesn't look like yourself, whodoesn't speak like yourself,
who doesn't dress like you,
it is changing in a waythat is transformative.

(29:02):
And then when those moments comeand a guy named David says, hey.
I wanna uplift thelow income world.
You wanna do it too. Right?
And that wouldn't comeif you hadn't seen it.
Really appreciate thosewords. Thank you, Elaine.
You know, I was just I was remindedone of my favorite books on

(29:22):
leadership is entitled OnBecoming a Leader by Warren
Bennis who wrote manybooks on the topic.
This is my favorite of his,
and I was just looking at thisquote about travel and here it is.
And I know you're gonna agree,
but this is this youtriggered this for me.
So let me share a great quoteabout travel. Here it is.
Travel is anotherkind of learning.
All the cliches about itare true. It does broaden.

(29:45):
It is revelatory.
It changes yourperspective immediately
because it requires newand different responses
Yes.
From you.
Travel is another form ofrisk taking and I really appreciate
you connected thatinto empathy as well.
I definitely, I'm aware of,
other authors and people thatI admire saying things like,

(30:08):
you know, many college kids tryto take that junior year abroad
and that is as Warren Bennettjust underlined for us,
that is revelatory.
But this personalso said, you know,
more of us should just getout to our own country.
Go out and see America,get to the rural places,
the highways and the byways,and I really appreciate that.

(30:30):
I've done some of that,
but I don't think I'vedone enough of that,
and I definitely can seethe benefits of that.
Was that in your blood?
Have you figuredthat out as an adult?
You gave a great exampleof serving others.
Were you always traveling?
I know you're even gonna bein Washington DC next week.
I'm not going to.
We could have had lunch,but I'm actually traveling.
I don't do it asmuch as I'd like to.
Do you travel enough, Elaine?

(30:52):
I probably travel too much.My husband would say, hey.
Stay on the bus.
Well, but, you know,
my parents took me around theworld on a shoestring budget
out of a tent in theback of a station.
Wow. Right? What?
And I was blessed to see somany national parks and meet
so many unique people.

(31:13):
I I think that in a worldwhere both parents work these
days and thefamilial structure is
being stressed, I findtravel to have so many
benefits with children andotherwise, and and so I do.
I travel often and frequently.
I bring my kids withme as often as I can,

(31:34):
and you can you can alreadysee the benefits of that,
across the board.
I so appreciate that point.
A lot of parents are listening,
and I had that incredibleexperience of once getting to
travel with my dad who invitedme on his business trip.
He was he was a lawyerin corporate banking.
It didn't sound like themost interesting job to me,

(31:54):
but I'll always remember thefantastic luncheon where I got
to sit feeling like an adult.
I was probably fourteen.
And just his brieflyopening his world to me and
making me feel included,opening my eyes,
and it it was actually GeorgeWill was the lunchtime speaker
at this event decades ago,
but I'll always remember thatjust because it was so it felt

(32:17):
so special to me.
So you're doing that withyour kids and anybody who's
listening and everybodywho's listening.
I hope that you're giving that orthinking about that same opportunity.
Elaine, I just think you havemore cool stuff to show off than
corporate banking to your kids.
We first got to know each other.
You were workingat Operation Hope.
Would you just briefly lay outa little bit about Operation

(32:39):
Hope and what you learned as aprofessional working for that
organization for some years?
Oh, yeah.
Operation Hope, it's it's one ofthe best best nonprofits out there.
It's a global economicempowerment nonprofit that
focuses on low to moderateincome communities,
uplifting them withhomeownership and
entrepreneurship and and creditcounseling and financial literacy.

(33:01):
And and I learned soso much working there.
I oversaw theirresearch, institute.
And I'll tell you thatI've been blessed in that
I've how bolddisruptive thinking
can actually address deeprooted systemic issues.
And I think in aworld that's cynical,

(33:23):
in a world that's divided,
I can't even expresshow lucky I am that no
problem seems insurmountableto me and how blessed I am that
Operation Hope and and XPRIZEand The Motley Fool Foundation,
they believe that that anythingcan be fixed, solved, uplifted.

(33:45):
Right?
Hope and belief, you have to have wewe talk about shift of mindset at The
Motley Fool Foundationall the time. Right?
It doesn't matter if you teach someonehow to write a check or how to invest,
if they don't believe thatthey can build wealth,
right, that they theydeserve to be rich,
that they deserve to be happy.
Hope it startswith hope for sure.

(34:07):
And one thing that I've notgotten to do because I've never
been on one of your teams.
I'm just on a board with you.But, Elaine, I'm curious.
What is your ownapproach to leadership?
Often, people who work arounda leader say, you know,
she has a certain catch phraseor a certain habit or she
conducts meetingsin a certain way.
I haven't had that goodfortune to be around you,
but I'm just curious,

(34:28):
what can we all learn from youwhen it comes to the day to day
work we all do with youwhen you're our leader?
I would my staff would probablysay she's always telling us to
experiment and fail big.
And so I think, David,you and I share this also.
I want my team to have nolimitations on thought,
strategy, and vision.

(34:49):
Right?
I want them to thinkthat the sky's the limit,
that everything can beenhanced and improved,
that they can trythings and fail big,
and they can do itin a safe place,
and I will be theirbiggest champion.
So experiment and feeland feel big, David.
Well, that energy is comingthrough so well this week,
and thank you because you'rehelping recharge all of our

(35:10):
batteries here as westart the fall, well,
at least in thenorthern hemisphere.
Elaine, let's talk a little bitabout you mentioned earlier your
Motley.
And just for those who don'tknow what we're talking about,
at The Motley Fool, we've alwayssaid each of you, our employees,
each of you brings your ownvalue to work every day.
And it's really fun to hear whatthat is in a word or a phrase.

(35:33):
My Motley, so that's the valueI bring to the Motley flow
every day, is Excelsior.
And Excelsior, which is Latin Inever did take Latin in school.
I always managed to dodge it,
but I know it means ever higher.
It also happens for New Yorkersto be the state motto of your
state, but I've alwaysloved that word.
Turns out, I'm not the onlyone Stan Lee of Marvel Comics fame.

(35:55):
He was obsessed with that word.
I I just love it. We don'tneed to talk about that.
I wanted to talk againabout your motley, Elaine,
because youexpressed it earlier,
and I knew it since you're amember of our foundation board,
but thoughtful disruptor.
And I specifically we'regonna skip the thoughtful part
because, I mean, wecould talk about that,
but I already get that.

(36:16):
It's the disruptor part thatreally connects so well with
the rule breaker investing.
Why is disruption
necessary?
It's for a lot of people,it's it has a negative connotation.
So I know you don'tmean it that way.
A brief p n, if youwill, to disruption.

(36:36):
Disruption is actually a dangerousword, right, in my opinion.
One, I love my motley.
I've had it now for almostsix years, David, I think.
And I would encourage everyoneto come up with their own
motley or motto.
Disruptor, though it does.
It's often portrayedas negative.

(36:57):
I want it to be positive,
and I want it to be thoughtful becauseI never wanna do more harm than good.
Right?
And often, the reason disruptiongets such a negative connotation
is that it's not thoughtfullydone in a way where you
open your mind and lens to thepotential indirect negative effects.
Right?

(37:18):
And so even, you know,
what we're doing at TheMotley Fool Foundation,
we want to to doless harm than good.
And I'll give you an example.
When you teach folksabout entrepreneurship,
let's say they're middle income.
Entrepreneurship is likebaseball. It is a failing game.
Right?
And they might put all theirmoney on the line to fail.

(37:42):
And is that necessarily thebest for them in the long run?
Probably not. Right?
So how do you work in theareas of financial freedom or
innovation in athoughtful way where
you're doing moregood than harm?
I I guess that's myquestion always. Right?
And I and I hope that anyonewho's disrupting anything,

(38:03):
they take a moment, and theydo a postmortem, a premortem.
And they look at what theirdisruption is going to do and
who it's going tohurt potentially,
and then evaluate whetheryou disrupt or not.
You know, a lot of peoplelistening are change makers.
Not everybody's a CEO. I'venever wanted to be one myself.

(38:24):
But so a lot ofus aren't the CEO,
but we work within contextswhere we do have social
capital, financial capital,where we do look to disrupt.
But as you said, Elaine,in a positive way,
doing more good than harm.
How about a littlebit of coaching?
I'm gonna be asking you for somebusiness lessons a little bit later.
Maybe this is a preview.

(38:46):
The first one, how about a littlebit of coaching for people who are
looking to create disruptionin a positive way in their
organization, but they'renot quite sure how to start?
Oh, I love this question.Okay. I do this all the time.
We have this moonshotworkshop that we host.
And the number one thing youhave to do is you have to
articulate your challenge.
Whether it's a challengein your team, your family,

(39:09):
whether it's achallenge of the world,
if you can't clearly articulate whatyou're trying to disrupt, don't try.
Right? And I meanthat sincerely.
Like, if you don't knowwhat the systemic cause of
that challenge is oror what is happening,
then you can'tcorrectly infiltrate

(39:31):
that, disrupt that, change that.
Let's say that you finally haveyour challenge articulated.
I would really encourage everyoneto go for a moonshot first.
Right? Now that is notnecessarily a personal goal.
It's not necessarilya milestone.
I was I I alluded to this.

(39:52):
I was at a YPO event,
and I hope Steven forgives mefor using him as an example,
but he is a lovelygentleman who is creating peacemakers.
He wants to createpeacemakers at a young
age, at an adultage, and he's like,
I'm gonna have two hundredand fifty thousand.
I'm gonna train two hundredand fifty thousand peacemakers.

(40:12):
Wow.
And he's telling me this,
and everyone has thereaction you did.
And then I'm like,oh, that's not enough.
That was my reaction. Right?
Malcolm Gladwell will tell youthree percent of anything in a
community stabilizesthat community.
For me, his two hundred andfifty thousand peacemakers
was a personal goal,and it was a milestone.

(40:33):
It was not systemic change.It was not a moonshot.
A moonshot would be createthree percent of the world's
population as peacemakers andand finally have world peace.
Right?
And so I guess forme, it's twofold.
One, articulate yourchallenge really well.
Two, push the boundariesof thought and work backwards.

(40:56):
What are you trying to achieve?
Make it audaciousand bold as can be.
Once you have that moonshot, ofcourse, you'll set milestones.
Of course, you'llset personal goals.
But you have to knowwhat your north star is,
and that North Star betterbe built off of a clear
articulation of a challenge.
Really well put together,and I so appreciate that.

(41:18):
You are being relevant topeople in ways I can't even
know or describe because a lotof us are hearing that and then
going to apply that tosomething this week or next
quarter that all of a sudden Ihope will make things better,
doing more good than harm.
You described whatthe XPRIZE does.
You're working acrossnonprofits, foreign
governments, private companies.

(41:39):
You have a broad view of howto lead for impact. Alright.
Well, speaking of articulation,
I really love how you youpointed out that articulating
the challenge in the firstplace is so important to
actually create meaningfuland successful disruption.
Let's stick withthe the articulation
theme.
I'm gonna be greedyhere, Elaine.

(42:00):
I I'd love for you toarticulate, if you would.
Let's go with three threeshort lessons from your
career that I as anentrepreneur or a business
leader can apply to create
sustainable winningimpact and change.
Again, you've worked acrossnonprofits, private companies.
We've talked about governments.
Some you have a broad viewof how to lead for impact.

(42:22):
So let's narrow it down andmake it practical for me as a
listener with threeshort lessons.
Is this a fair question?
It's a great question.
Okay. Good. Let'sgo with number one.
Number one is actuallysomething I just alluded to.
I would argue if you'rea business leader or anyone
trying to make systemicchange, you have to be bold,

(42:42):
and that's being bold inyour own sole proprietorship
business too.
Right? Yeah. You'regonna sell shoes.
Don't have your goal be sellenough shoes to maybe compete.
Sell all the shoes. Right?
Like, you need tohave some bold,
audacious belief in yourself.
Right, David? Your brotherand you had this. Right?

(43:04):
You were gonna write anewsletter at some point,
and then you were gonnamake sure everyone had it.
Yeah. It was a print newsletter.
I mean, we we were we didn't evensee the Internet quite yet when we
started as a paper newsletter,but, yes, keep going.
Yes.
Yes. You wanted tomail it to everybody.
You didn't wanna mail itto five people. Right?
So one, be bold. Two, lean in.

(43:26):
Lean in to everybody you can.
You cannot do it yourself.
You need to create a movement,a movement in your business,
a movement in yoursocial sphere.
You need to do it together,
and you cannot be afraidthat by bringing people on,
somehow it takessomething from you.
Right?

(43:47):
If there are morepeople at the table,
the table is a better table.
The boat rises together.
By bringing people in into yourmovement, into your moonshot,
into your goals in life,you will go farther.
Right? What's theAfrican proverb?
If you wanna gofast, go by yourself.
If you wanna gofar, go with others.

(44:07):
Go with others.Thank you, David.
I'm so glad we're aligned.
Right? It's true. Doyou you agree with this?
I agree with thiswholeheartedly.
And you will find thatyour life is enhanced.
Your business isdoing better. Lean in.
That's number two.So be bold. Lean in.
And three, this onemight be controversial,
but be unapologetic.

(44:28):
If you have core values andyou live them and you're
authentic, do thingswithout apology
and go after them, and you willhave some people who disagree.
You will make some people mad.
But if you holdtrue to your values,
do what you want todo unapologetically,
and those would be my three.

(44:49):
Thank you. I reallyappreciate that.
And especially number two,
another way I've sometimesheard it phrased is innovation,
business, really life, butjust go with innovation.
It's a team sport.
And it it's increasingly truetoday as we have bigger and
bolder challenges.
It's increasingly impossiblejust to be Thomas Alva Edison
and supposedly invent thatyourself even though Edison

(45:11):
didn't even just inventthings by himself.
So so I so appreciatethat point, Elaine.
As we start to move toward theend by the way, we have a buy,
sell, or hold game coming up.
But let me just ask thisquestion because I I'm looking
at your job seniorVP of partnerships
and senior VP of impact.
It seems to me likelike there's a balance there,

(45:32):
or there might be a tension.
Because on the one hand,you wanna dream big.
You want partners whocan think audaciously
and lean in as you said.
On the other hand, youneed to measure for impact.
So there's there's one partdreaming and then one part doing.
And I would say my favoritepeople are those who can do
both, but it it does seemlike not everybody's great at both.

(45:55):
How do you manage toward boththe dreaming and the doing?
There's such attention.
And anyone who says there'snot attention, they're lying.
Right?
XPRIZE has had threeprizes not pay up. Right?
We dreamt super bigand unable to deliver.
But let me Give an example.
Yes. Let me tell yeah. Ithank you, David. I will.

(46:16):
Let me tell you an exampleof the Google Lunar prize.
It the prize's goal was to sendsomething to land on the moon.
It's that simple.
Landing on the moonis very, very hard.
They extended thetimeline twice.
No one got to the winning teamstatement of landing on the moon.

(46:40):
Fast forward.
We held the bar super high,
and it's that sayingthat you tell your kids,
aim for the moon.
If you fail, you'll you'llland amongst the stars.
We moonshotted literally to themoon. The teams didn't make it.
There were two countries who for thevery first time had a lunar program.
That's a win.

(47:01):
Years after the prize ended,
they just ice space just hada crash landing on the moon.
News flash, crash landing on themoon, huge success, not a failure.
Right?
And so for us, thetension is real,
and sometimes it'spainful, right,
because they don't reach it.
But I'm telling you,

(47:21):
the tension is where the successhappens even when it's not achieved.
Right?
So if you dream bigand you set that goal,
let the tension live thereand fall a little short sometimes.
I promise where you fall isa heck of a lot farther than
where you started, and we haveto start changing the narrative.
Right? The narrative is, wow.

(47:42):
Look at what we achieved,not holy smokes.
Surprise didn't pay up.
Great example, and really appreciatehow we can win even when we lose,
and that's a major themefor rule breaker investing.
Losing to win is oneof my favorite phrases,
and it describes a willingnessto take risk and to recognize
it doesn't always work out.
In fact, if it always worksout, Elaine, and dear listener,

(48:04):
you're probably not being boldenough if you just keep hitting
those short puttsone after another.
So I so appreciate that point.
And, also, let me just brieflyyou've spoken to our Motley Fool
Foundation a numberof times already,
and I really appreciateyou doing so.
Elaine, you've been part of a teamthat has helped us craft that vision
of financial freedom for all.
Do you wanna speakbriefly to that?

(48:25):
This speaks to an earlier part ofyour career, Operation Hope, etcetera.
You have a better view of thosepossibilities than most people
that I know, I include myself.
I it's where my passion mypersonal passion lies is
financial freedom.
So many things stem from thatthat people don't even know.
Their health,their divorce rate,

(48:45):
their ability to carefor their children.
Right?
If there's one thing Iwant my legacy to be as a
person, it's that you uplifted
your fellow neighbor, thefamily down the street,
the stranger in the town over,
to be on a financial footingwhere they were able to be happy.

(49:08):
Right?
That they weren't looking attheir kid that they couldn't feed,
that they didn't not go to thehospital one day because they
couldn't afford it andpass away the next.
Right?
For me, David, your foundationis everything I want
to achieve in life.
And and financial freedom,you know, the the foundation,

(49:29):
the board, and David inparticular were so conscious
of what to call it.
It's not financial literacy.It's not financial empowerment.
It's not any of thecoin terms in the past.
It's something muchgreater than that. Right?
Financial freedom is havingthe ability to take care of
yourself and the ones you lovein a manner that is unbridled,

(49:52):
right, and attainable.
And it's not a mass amount ofwealth, quite opposite. Right?
It's a standard of living thatyou just want everyone to have,
and it's also got a handout.
And I and I and I I getthis all the time. Right?
What The Motley Fool Foundation isgoing to offer is a hand up.
And and like wejust talked about,

(50:13):
when they get that hand up,you're rising with them.
There is there is a boat thatsails faster and farther together.
I think anybody who didn't knowElaine before this week can
easily see why we're so proudto have her on the board these
many years of TheMotley Fool Foundation.
And I'm also proud that youare willing to play buy, sell,
or hold with me.

(50:34):
I'm a little nervous.I'm not gonna lie.
I got the way it'ssupposed to be. Right?
That tension betweendreaming and delivering,
Elaine Hugenberg. Okay.
These are not stocks.
But if they werestocks, the question is,
would you be buying,selling, or holding,
and a few sentences as to why?
Are you ready? Yes.
Let's start with number one,
artificial intelligence

(50:56):
in impact measurement.
If that were a stock today orgoing forward, buy, sell, or hold.
Buy, buy, buy, buy, buy.Buy is buy yesterday.
Buy today, buy tomorrow.
I mean, there are countlessI'm gonna flip it too.
Buy AI for impactmeasurement and buy AI for

(51:16):
challenges and identifying them.
There is quantum computing andalgorithms are going to change
the way in which wecan, for the first time,
articulate world hunger.
Right?
The like, there's so many variablesthat go into challenges that the
human mind cannot articulatebecause we cannot compute so

(51:37):
many inbound variables.
Right?
So just like I wantto measure the impact,
I wanna know the problembetter. Right? So bye bye bye.
Love it. And that makes me evenmore bullish for the future.
Thank you.
Elaine, next one up, corporatesocial responsibility,
CSR.
If it were a stock, are you buying,selling, or holding, and why?

(52:00):
I'm holding because I'm hopeful.
I'm holding because I'mhopeful that the CSR, ESG,
they can do better.
Right? They just theyneed to do better.
They should do better.
They can do better, soI'm holding with hope.
Alright. On to number three.
Let's go with celebrityendorsements in

(52:21):
social impact campaigns.
Buy, sell, or hold.
Oh, dude. This one's so hard.
It's not supposed to beeasy. Otherwise, the game's no fun.
I would
contrary to what I wannasay, I would actually buy,
and I'll tell you why.

(52:41):
Generations, my kids,
I would argue theone right under me,
is all about social media,and they do as they do.
And why not havethose celebrities
be a north star to goodsocial thing, so I'm
buying.
And it's a little bit of alazy question for me because

(53:02):
celebrity just canmean too many things.
There are amazingly greatcelebrities that everybody
would love to have,
and then there are horrificcelebrities that you would
never have on yoursocial impact campaign.
So, you know, maybea little bit lazy.
And this next one, numberfour, kind of continues.
We'll see where you go withthis one, but, specifically,
let's go with TikTokright now, Elaine.

(53:22):
Viral TikTok
challenges for a socialgood, buy, sell, or hold.
We're gonna need a disclaimer,and I'm aging myself.
I've never been onTikTok in my life.
Actually, neither have I,
but half half of theUnited States today is.
So I think it'sworth talking about.

(53:43):
I actually would sell thatone, and I'll tell you why.
Not because I don't thinkit will have many followers.
I would sell becauseit will prove in
it won't be efficacious.
Right?
My gut is that
you could do more harm thangood with that type of stuff.
And, when those challenges cometo fruition and they and they

(54:06):
may or may not make theimpact that you're seeking,
they might die off.
Now with that said, I'veseen some in the past.
What was the waterchallenge, David, for Yeah.
OLS. Right?
That's a beautiful thing,
and I would encourage and Ilove grassroots campaigns.
TikTok challenges the worldof back end algorithms

(54:26):
reestablishing your own biases.
I'm I'm just I believein thoughtful curation of of
things, and I'm not sure TikTok'sthoughtful as it needs to be.
You have my vote, and neitherone of us have been on.
I'm not planning ongoing anytime soon.
I still have neversigned up for Facebook,
but I do like social media.
I enjoy Twitter,
and we all have our thingsand things we don't do.
So appreciate that, Elaine. Howabout this? Two more for you.

(54:49):
You're being such a good sport.
I love asking you tough ones.
But how about asoftball for you?
I think, Elaine, space tourism.
If it were a stock, goingforward, buy, sell, or hold.
Buy. Buy. It's a completelynew discoverable space.
Space space.
You and I talked about theimportance of travel earlier.

(55:09):
Is this travel youyourself would endeavor?
Oh, wow. I've never been askedthat. Would I go to space? No.
I don't think Idon't think I would.
You can still buy it withoutsaying you do it yourself.
I'm buying in spades,just not for myself. Yeah.
And the last one,speaking of competitions,
I noticed this happenson TV sometimes.

(55:32):
People call it reality TV.
I'm sometimes wonderinghow real it is.
But buy, sell, or hold,Elaine, I don't know,
shows like SharkTank, The Apprentice,
reality TV competitionsfor entrepreneurs.
I would
hold those.
I would hold those. And, Ithink they're great platforms.
I don't know the successstories of them per se,

(55:55):
but I can't imagine thatanything that that incentivizes
entrepreneurship and and hasa healthy form of competition,
that's always, you know,an a plus in my game book.
So we'll hold.
Elaine Hungerberg,
you have been most generouswith your insights,
your energy, your foresight, andespecially, I think, your goodness.

(56:15):
We're we're really appreciativeto have you on Rule Breaker
Investing this week,
to have you on the board ofthe Motley Fool Foundation.
But I would say most of all,your highest impact place,
which is senior VP ofpartnerships and impact at the
XPRIZE Foundation, whichis an organization if you,
dear listener, didn't knowabout it at the start of this
week, now you do.
And it's fascinatingto watch going forward.

(56:37):
And, yeah, they actually payup more than the Nobel Prize.
Elaine, it's been such a pleasurehaving you with us today.
Safe travels whetherto space or not,
and look forward to seeing you onthis podcast again down the line.
Fool on, my friend.
Thanks, David. Take care.
As always, people on this program may haveinterest in the stocks they talk about,
and The Motley Fool may have formalrecommendations for or against.

(57:00):
So don't buy or sell stocksbased solely on what you hear.
Learn more about Rule BreakerInvesting at r b I dot fool dot com.