Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the whole remodeling show brought to you by
Edge Construction online edge Construction Company dot com. It's all
one word Edge Construction Company dot com. Really nice website
if you have been by recently, they're always updating it
with recent projects and other cool stuff. Again that's available
to you at Edge Construction Company dot com. Also check
out their Facebook, their Pinterest and their house links to you.
Of course, Pinterest and hows have some really cool stuff,
(00:23):
especially hows. I'm here looking for someone who really need
to check out as far as projects at Edge Construction
and a website, Edge Construction Company dot Com TELF number
six So wait six three six three three four to
three the number so easy to remember that six three
six Edge And joining us in studio this morning is
Mike two Egg of Edge Construction. Mike, how you doing
this week?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Right shot?
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It's good to talk to you, and we're going to
be talking mistakes and regrets, which is uh things regrets. Yeah, yeah,
there are sometimes like you know, uh, missing your exit
or something like that that's a minor just go down
next exit, turn around. When it comes to uh a
remodeling that could be a big thing and you really
want to do a lot of a lot of groundwork
(00:59):
and make sure that you do a lot of planning.
And so we're going to talk about, you know, really
how to avoid those things when it comes to the
remodeling project. Real quick though, before we get to this
week's topic, I mentioned the website Edgeconstruction Company dot com
also mentioned social media. I don't know if I mentioned Instagram.
I get on there from time to time. I love
Instagram because it's mostly just pictures and doesn't have all
the other stuff the other social platforms. AnyWho, I was
(01:23):
asking you about a recent posting up on your Instagram
page a bathroom room remodel, and the bathroom the remodel
looks amazing, and I was looking at the before pictures
and I saw something and I just said, we never
talked about this, And I know they exist. Sowfits and bathrooms.
They were a thing for a while, weren't they.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
They were a thing. I don't know why. Again, I
always make fun of myself a little bit because in
the eighties and nineties, when when you'd frame a house,
when you'd stick build a house, the last thing you
would do would be like, Okay, it's time to build
us up. As none of us ever knew why we
were doing it. Looking back, I think Oilders went, well,
(02:02):
if we we have eight foot ceilings and we build
a one foot soffit, then then we can buy a
thirty inch upper cabinet and save some money. But I mean,
it seems like a lot of effort to go through
to do that, Like it would have been probably cheaper
just to not build a soffit and put the cabinet up.
I don't know, but yeah, even bathrooms would have softae and.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
This one in particular.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So they used it for for heat, which is which
is interesting because I didn't do great in school, but
I do tend to recall heat rising. So if you
put it up to it's probably not the best location.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, I don't think that's where you want it, especially
in a bathroom. You know you're in there, You're probably
not you know you, I don't know. I don't wear
shoes in the bathroom. I don't know. Yeah, get up
in the morning to the bathroom. Yeah, but yeah, you
want the heat coming out low, especially in a bathroom.
But this one was was odd. It's a very nice house,
a pretty upscale home that was maybe thirty years old
and uh, and we got in there remodel. But yeah,
(02:54):
they built they ran a heat up the wall and
out through that soffit, so it was kind of coming
down now where anybody would stand or even be. And
so yeah, when we've when we've fixed her up, we
rerouted that heat and uh brought it out low underneath
cabinet where you'd want. I mean, that's where you're that's
where you're gonna stand. You want to be warm, that's
where you want.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Some of the things and one of the things too
before we get to this week's conversation about mistakes and regrets.
One of the things I did notice too about the
before pictures a little outdated as far as style and
of course with the soffits, but the overall design wasn't terrible.
It wasn't like a like to me, I look at
that and like if if Christine and I were buying
that home, we'd go, like, that's something we need to
(03:35):
address someday, maybe not today, but in something. Uh, what's
triggered the the remodel project on this.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, that bathroom right, you're right, it was functional, like
the shower still work, the sinks work, the it had
all the elements you need for a bathroom. It wasn't
necessarily falling apart, but they did have a valve let
loose underneath one of the cabinets undernath one of those sinks.
The valves are those things you turn to shut the
water off if you're gonna replace the sink, and a
lot of times water damage starts at the valve. So
(04:04):
whenever we are remodeling, you know, if we have a
chance to get at those valves, we're gonna put new
ones on there and replace those because that's generally the
failing point. So that uh, water let loose and ruin
the cabinets in there, and that's what triggered that part
of the remodel. Uh. Unfortunately, the right underneath that was
(04:24):
a big beautiful kitchen with cherry cabinets and and uh
more soppets, and those stoppits are just filled up with water.
Oh no, ran down the walls and and uh you know,
ended up ended up doing a fairly major remodel on
the first floor of that house because you know, that
water just uh went everywhere you could think of.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
This is something I've never asked you about before, but
with something like that, obviously a homeowner can do an
insurance claim. Do you guys get that often times where
folks are like, we've had this, this incident occur and
we've got, as you know, a check from the insurance companies.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Maybe the starting point or does that go on at all?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It's a starting point. You know. We actually look at
quite a few of those jobs. We don't we don't
get many of them because insurance companies do not pay
what replacement cost is. So what happens is they they
a lot of times will we'll work with the the
demo contractors that that come in and stop the bleeding
(05:21):
and dry things out. There's that's kind of a specialty business.
And uh, it sort of forces those people to have
some drivellers and have people with some skill sets, but
they're not really remodelers. And so I'm gonna give it
to the insurance companies a little bit. And and home
owners too, Okay, home owers, probably you always feel like
it's never gonna happen to me. But then when you
(05:42):
go to replace it, you wanna, you wanna, you know,
you want it. You want to replaced to its former
glory at least, and that's not what insurance is generally
paying to do. They're paying to do the absolute minimum.
Uh so this this, uh, this fix was probably fifty
thousand dollars away from what insurance paid. So I was
(06:04):
a pretty savvy homeowner and I know he beat him
up a little bit and got him to come up
some I'm not sure what, but you know if you
bought to if you want a brand new Kyi, you're
not going to ensure it. You know, if that thing
gets a certain amount of damage, you want it replaced.
And then some you want to be able to buy
at least the vehicle that you had before. And for
some reason, on homeowner's insurance it doesn't really work that way.
(06:28):
And I'm betting though, that you can upgrade a little
bit and make sure that you don't have this happen
to you.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Hey, along those lines, and kind of tying in with
what we're going to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
About this week is is you know, you look at
that stuff and I think a lot of times to
kind of underestimate what that that project is going to
cost is like we think, oh yeah, I'll just you know,
it's insurance or whatever is is. People don't always understand.
And I know at edge construction, a really important thing
is talking about a budgeting and talking about what the
project is going to cost. What is that people when
(06:58):
it comes to some of the ats, some of the
mistakes and remodeling oftentimes comes down to not fully understanding
what a good quality remodel is is going to cost.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it if you if you do a search on
the the biggest problems with you know, where things start
to go wrong on a remodel project. The first thing that
comes up in every case is undrestming the cost and
so that it's it's it's not just when if a
(07:28):
homeowner does it themselves. I know, there's I'm trying to
think of something I've talked my wife into where I said, oh,
it's we're going to save all this money and I'm
gonna and then it almost never works out quit that way.
You know, it could be could be anything from you know,
we I like fixing cars, and so I could be there,
uh you know, oh you bought the wrong parts and
(07:50):
then rectum, so we got to buy all the brand
new parts. I mean that's the thing. That same type
of thing can happen on a remodel project. And you know,
I wouldn't expect a horner to be able to nail
that budget, that initial budget number. You know, if they're
if they're doing this on their own. It's you see
those things right that that if you're looking at the
(08:10):
pictures online, you're going, you know, okay, I can pick
out cabins, I can pick out tops, I can I
can I can do some of these things, all those
all the all that discretionary money is the stuff you
can see, and so you can put a figure to that.
But don't forget about the valves, right and so it's
not just the valves. There's a lot of stuff behind
the walls and a lot a lot goes into it
(08:32):
that you you know, initially can't plan.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
For you think about two you mentioned some of the
discretionary stuff and the stuff that you can see, think
about water damage for example. The stuff that you can't
see is really these especially if talking about the second floor,
and these these can be significant repairs that can't be ignored.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They can't. And so just like, uh, you know, I
picked on the homeowners right like you're I don't know
how you could really estimate cost accurately if without a
lot of experience, A lot a lot of experience. Same
thing with contractors. If contractors, the less experienced they are,
the more chance they're going to miss something on the
(09:10):
front end and oh later on you're going once in
a while, this happens to us, by the way, but
as if you listen to the show, you you know
that we we stick to our contracted price unless it's
a uh, you know, there's there's things that come up
that home owners want us to do extras or stuff
like that, but or change orders. But otherwise we whatever
(09:30):
we contract for, that's what we come in at. If
if you look up online, you know, advice on doing
a remodel, one of the first things that the experts
are going to say is ill withhold ten to thirty
percent of this project. So so if the product is
going to cost one hundred thousand, that means you should
have another twenty thirty grand sitting there. Or if you've
(09:53):
something goes wrong right, and I will tell you it
almost always goes wrong right if you're if you sign
a contract that's kind of open ended and leaves a
lot of outs for the for the contractor to go.
You know, I found found this this's the TV thing, right,
if you open up the wall on TV, they always
find something and it always cost at least ten grand. Hmm, okay,
(10:16):
well I guess we'll just have to pay it. You know,
there's it's not really a decision, right, you have to
do that stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And that and and for folks speaking of folks that
have been listening to this program for a while, open
ending it open ended is not how how you operate
it for a number of reasons. I mean, that's that's
it's important for you to at edge construction to really
have a very clear uh contract, very clear plan for attack,
and very clear budget, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It is? But you know, it's also like an experience
saying like I don't want to underestimate costs either, like
I want to make sure that that we know we
can predict how this job is going to go, and
and that way our our costs are are don't change.
I think that a lot of times starting off with
(11:00):
a more realistic cost that way, I turn it as
kind of tearing off the band aid. I know where
we're priced in the market. We're not the most expensive,
we're not the least, We're somewhere in the middle. And
it's very repeatable. So I think it's just having the
experience to be able to predict what's going to happen
(11:20):
on that job. It's pretty hard to do when you're
young at it. I know when I was younger at this,
I probably made some mistakes that I know I did actually,
and I think that you should. That would be a
great question for your model. Okay, okay, we're going to
sign a contract to do a kitchener model. What is
(11:41):
something unforeseen that could happen that is going to raise
the cost of this for me? I've signed a contract
at this number. And then my next question would be
do you not have enough experience to foresee that problem?
I mean, like if you shine the light a little farther,
could you have predicted this? And and and then we
(12:01):
could come in at a contracted price.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know, we were talking before the show about about
cars and stuff like that, and as we're talking about,
you know, underestimating costs and the budget and and those
type of those type of areas, and of course choosing
the cheapest thing. I think a lot of us when
it comes to our first car, maybe like ever have
to like put new tires or something on our car,
we'd go with the super cheapest ones you could you
(12:24):
could come up with lesson learned. You start to discover
that paying a little and not talking about top of
the line, you know, super performance stars, but getting like
the brand name and kind of some of the things
it does actually go a very long way. Ones.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
There are bad ones, and we've there's a lot of
options in the construction side, and there are products that
I won't use anymore. Take a guess at why I
won't use them. Try it in the past, right, like so,
like that is some of that stuff you just can't
you you know, it's hard to predict. And so when
(13:01):
I'm looking at products now, I go, well, okay, this
is a there are tough times. Our designers are going
we like to look at this product. It's half as
much as the one we're currently using. And I instantly
that red light starts buzzing in the corner of my eye,
going okay, why is this? Where's it coming from? Something's
missing from the equation. Either it's either it's the it's
(13:23):
a source that's not very predictable, like we don't know
when it's going to come, or maybe it's going to
go out of production or or or they're or they're
just getting rid of what's left of a production run.
This happens quite a bit in construction, or it's a
or it's a lesser quality, and then it's it's sort
of like a product roulette, right, you don't know, you
don't know if you're going to be the you know
(13:43):
you're gonna have the bad luck that if it's going
to fail, if it's going to fail out a one
out of ten times, you might be that number ten.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Earlier used it the phrase ripping the band aid off,
and kind of when we talk about like budget other things,
that's a hard Let's I'm gonna be honest, is I
think for anybody that's a hard thing to do sometimes.
Obviously we don't always like to talk budget. People don't
like to talk money, but people don't also like to
It's not like it's a whole lot easier to tell
you this. We'll get well, we'll do this project ten
(14:12):
thousand dollars, twelve thousand dollars and then do it. Everybody's happy,
everybody's excited. It's always easy than to come back and say,
we're going to this thing, need a little extra money.
It's like, sometimes though, is being and that sometimes being
realistic upfront kind of having that. It may seem tough,
but the value, there's a huge value to the overall
project of saying, let's be realistic about what we're doing,
(14:35):
what we're paying for, and how this project is going
to go.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean and whether it's ten grand or two
hundred grand, Yeah, that's a lot of money like in
our world. So I think people need to plan for
those kinds of times. The firmer your plan can be
the better because you got to you gotta live with
those numbers if you A huge problem in the in
our industry is that contract will come in low. Right,
(15:01):
They're gonna figure low end finishes to start with, even
though they know in the end nobody picks those low
end finishes. Yeah, Like it just doesn't happen. And so
you can have a budget grow by thirty forty percent
through that design process. And that's just getting to what
normal people pick. That's not adding to the scope. That's
not that's not you know, we call it scope creep
(15:24):
or things just keep getting added in that that will
increase your cost. But just by by picking out normal products.
So if you look at our electrical package on a kitchen,
we start off with lots of lighting under cabinet lighting,
be able to control it with dinners and do all
(15:45):
the things, upgrade all the electrical to a really good level,
not the minimum level, because in the end that's what
almost everybody picks. Yeah, we could start off go oh,
do you want under cabinet lights? Well, nine to nine
percent of projects pick catalyzed. But so I think it's
a more honest way to do it is just to
start at least at the standard.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, what people?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, And that's and that's one of the great things
that we talked to about different you know, your experience
and history at edge construction and what's offered and having
those conversations those are important questions to be asking as
well your contractors, like where is that starting point and
what is kind of that that minimum. We're going to
talk with Mike a little bit more about that. Wa
also talk as we go through mistakes and regrets. Sometimes
folks decide, you know, what the cheapest route is to
(16:28):
do it myself and unfortunately learn the hard way that
there's a reason why the Mike and his team have
this skill and why they spend so much time doing
this stuff, because it'd be very, very complicated, very we're
talking Mike about some of the things he's encountered there.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
We will do all of that next.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
The Homer Modeling Show with Edge Construction continues right here
on thirteen ten Wuiba. This is the Homer Modeling Show
brought you by Edge Construction Online. Edge Construction Company dot com,
great website, as we talked this week with Mike two
egg of Edge Construction. Of course, you can always check
out their work that website always updating it. The best
(17:04):
place to go though, is once you get to Edge
Construction Company dot com. Click that little green h for
how's houzz really cool projects? A lot of great projects
from Edge Construction on their house page or top number
six so eight six three six three three four to
three that number six three six Edge talking about mistakes
and regrets when it comes to remodeling, and more importantly,
how to avoid them. And Mike, we've all been tempted
(17:27):
to do something, be a di wire. Sometimes they go well,
sometimes it's very enjoyable, other times it does not go well.
And I think one of the ways folks try to
save money is like, hey, I can do this on
my own and I got skill set. That's great, but
a lot of us don't have that skill set. How
often are you are you getting calls from that may
(17:48):
have either they personally did or maybe the perse previous
owner had maybe done a DIY project and you guys
are coming in to kind of clean that up.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, I'll throw the the flip culture in there too,
or people were flipping houses and kind of had a
few maybe they're handy, yeah, but they were they We're
coming out of a thing where a lot of people
did what I would call not a fuller model or
not a real model. It was sort of a facelift. Okay,
I'm gonna hit the big box store on a Saturday
(18:17):
and and load up my cart with whatever the clearance
right has on it will make this work. And it's
kind of that's how you end up with houses that
have four different kinds of flooring on the first floor
and and maybe some odd things you know that at
first glance look okay. But and and we're a lot
of people like get that have kind of gotten it
(18:37):
on that thing, were the first time home buyers, right
because they hadn't been through this, they didn't really dig
deeper and find out, you know, figure out what they
were looking at or pull somebody in that could help
them to decide, because you know, you if you found
a house in the last few years, you know a
(18:57):
lot of that a lot of that time, those houses
would have twenty bids on them in the first you know,
twenty offers on them in the first couple of weeks.
And and so you did you weren't really you couldn't
really have a lot of discretion, you know, like you
were just trying to get in get in the house.
So yeah, fixing that stuff, we get called a fair
amount to finish things up, or maybe we're gonna do
(19:18):
the kitchen and then oh yeah, let's look at this
bathroom here for a kind of things might have went wrong,
or a run out Ronald may have been started. You know,
we don't mind that stuff at all. By the way,
we'll we happy to help.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Clean did fix it all up.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And you know one of the things too, is as
you were talking about, like flippers and other things I
think you know first time home buyers as well, is
we often can get lured in by by pretty pictures
and nice looking space. I think of like kitchens, for example,
things like you know, somebody just decided to throw a
coat of paint on the cabinets and maybe bought the
whatever the sale was on the on the flooring that week,
(19:50):
threw that stuff down, And like when you first get
in there, I think, and I think you in the
past have compared it to kind of like a like
a brand new car. I think you use the you go,
I don't want to steal because.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I remember you, right, every brand new car looks nice like, yeah,
people bought to you goo right, yeah, and they didn't
go by the way, it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Did not had the same thing happens with with some
of these you know, flipped homes and and and those
type of things where they look great in pictures and
you know, if you're not concerned about function or durability,
they seem just fine. It's once you start living in
it and you realize, well, this paint starting to chip
off and scratch, and.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, this is not a new phenomenon. Like, okay, we're
picking on the flippers. I think you know, I'm not
a fan of that deal. There was nothing healthy about
the flip thing. It was. It was just people capitalizing
on on other people and taking advantage of them. And
you know, like some of those shows, by the way,
people have been been been sued and prosecuted for for
(20:52):
basically what they did to those houses. But there was
before all that happened. People still would sometimes ignore a
fatal flaw in a house just to get the house.
Because I always called it kind of rooting for the house. Okay,
a lot of times it happens when you pull up
your thinking, oh, I love it, great yard right outside.
(21:17):
It didn't matter if the whole house was covered in
black mole. We're still going to buy this. You know.
It's like, okay, let's say, not that bad really, but
but but buyer, beware right when it is worth it
if you're going to buy this house, to get somebody
to help you figure out where it's at.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
You know, when we're talking to about d I Y,
I think for if you're a homeowner, one of the
reasons why you might do it yourself is is because
you're cheap. Obviously, flippers are doing it for for another
reason as well, But that is also a mistake that
that homeowners can make, is simply looking at the cheapest contractor.
You were mentioning earlier about things like change orders and
(21:55):
other things like that. It's not to say it's easy
but it's it's something that that can be done where
a contractor come in with the lowest bid and kind
of as you were talking that last segment about you know,
everything is kind of an add on. You want that
some of the things that are considered, you know, at
edge construction as being just part of the package. Other
contractors are literally those are those are additional costs. So
(22:16):
really making sure that you're understanding what the contractor is offering,
what that contract is is like, and understanding that the
cheapest contractor doesn't necessarily mean at the end of the day,
it's going to be the cheapest project.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
No, not necessarily, And and you know you're gonna want
to know where their floor is on the materials that
are going to go in there. Like right, like we
alluded to last time, was that there's a lot of
stuff that we won't use and it's because I've used
it in the past or had bad experiences and I
just don't want that phone call of a of a
failing product or something caused a problem. Most of the time,
(22:52):
if there's somebody that is uh, you know, if you've
bid out your project and there's somebody that's that's unnaturally
low there like, that's that's really low. It tend to
be it tends to be an experienced thing like they
have underbid. Uh, occasionally it's gonna be I have to
keep my people busy, so I'm gonna I'm gonna go
low and probably lose money on your project, Uh, just
(23:13):
to get it so I have something for for the
people to do, for the for your for your employees
to do. Also a very bad plan, right, I think
it actually what I think that scenario usually works a
lot better for the contractor than for the homeowner. And say, well,
how can that be if if this contractor is going
to work at a loss. It's because how much of
a priority do you think your project is going to
(23:34):
be if somebody underbids it and it is losing money
on it, Like it's gonna be something that sort of
gets fit in and they're gonna they're gonna tend to
apply their resources to the projects that are that are profitable.
And so if if somebody does really bid low, you
just I'm not saying you can't take them. I'm just
(23:55):
saying dig in. Yeah, you know, ask questions, why are
why are you so low? Why is everybody else just wrong?
On putting out this project? Are you gonna are you
going to deliver this job no matter what at the
contracted price? What's your floor on materials? What's your experience level?
Maybe they just have no overhead, right if somebody it
just has a pickup truck and kind of can do
(24:17):
everything themselves. You know, there's sometimes that around and maybe
they just have no overhead and they can work cheaper.
That's possible, So somebody like that's established. I think your
your results are and should be more predictable, so that
that okay, if that costs a little more, What am
I getting for that? You might be getting the design services,
(24:40):
you might be getting the experience factor where I know
what's going to happen when we open up that wall,
and I know what the inspectors are going to say,
and I know how much labor it's going to take
to fix whatever we find back there. And then you know,
like I mentioned the floor on material cost, like on
material quality, that's a pretty big thing.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
What about you you too, for you know some of
that experience and kind of predicting and understanding kind of
what's going to go into it. Do you ever see
does this go on or if you ever hear of this.
We're like a contractor that that may come in as
the lowest bid, maybe because that inexperience, something comes up
where they literally just say I'm out, like like I
maybe not even say that, like just stopped answering the
(25:21):
phone and just stop showing up. I mean I I'm
guessing you've probably heard stories of things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yes, of course here that here routinely there's the disappearing
subcontractor story is a thing. This this is happening right
now in town where the if you're lying, you know,
we do a lot of stuff in house. And that's
for a reason, right because I feel like there's risk
(25:49):
with if we have to hire subcontractors, and so there's
the risk of that we for me, there's the risk
of and it has happened in my past where we
have somebody locked down. All all signs are good, all
signs are go when it comes time to actually do
the work. Happened to us with a contry contractor that
(26:11):
we had for several years a couple of years ago.
All of a sudden, no answer in the phone, no
returning text messages, no what's email. I don't know what
that is. Anymore, and we can't, we can't come to respond,
and really what it is, Okay, they're bad communicators, but
there's it's an avoidance issue. Right things didn't go well
on a few other projects. They're way backed up. They
(26:34):
just don't want to talk to us right now. And
for a home work, it's pretty frustrating, you know, because
you're going, well, I hired you Mike to do this job,
and now you're saying this sub is is causing a problem.
So we're constantly trying to subvert that by if we
do subcontract something out which you know concretes one of them,
(26:55):
we have upgraded our source so much more predictable, much
better communicator much you know, now twenty years ago, I
might I'm gonna I might not have had access to, uh,
a subcontract like that, because they're everybody wants those people.
They're fantastic to work with, and it's just hard to
get them.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It's and if you mentioned you mentioned that too about
about being able to work with and and you know
you think of some of these, you know, those the
people that if you do have to use a sub
that are very reliable, very predictable, everything about them, high demand,
that that you know, you think about then the reputation
of Edge Construction makes it a whole lot easier to
(27:36):
be working with them regularly because they know. Conversely, just
like they're predictable, they're they're good on time, they're good
on schedules. Edge Construction that same type of thing. It's
a it's a really good partnership and a really good,
really good relationship there as well. I do want to
ask you about, as we talked this week with Mike
two Wig of Edge Construction, about some of the mistakes
and regrets and ways to avoid them. The importance of
(27:58):
a clear timeline. We'll talkalk with Mike about that. That
is a big, big thing when it comes to remodeling.
If you have been to the website recently, definitely head
on over Edgeconstruction Company dot com. That's all one word,
Edge Construction Company dot com. They're tough number six so
eight six three six three three four three that number
so easy to remember, six three six edge. Of course,
Edge Construction brings you the Homer Modeling Show right here
thirteen ten double you ib A. This is the Homer
(28:27):
Modeling Show, brought to you by Edge Construction online. Edge
Construction Company dot com. It's all one word Edge Construction
Company dot com. They are tough number six So eight
six three six three three four to three that number
six three six Edge talking to this week with Mike
Twoey of Edge Construction about construction related mistakes and how
to avoid them. I think they call that avoiding regret
and MIC And that last last segment touched on it
(28:48):
a bit there about contractors that uh and subs and
others that kind of disappear and kind of ghost. But
also an important thing to do is have a very
clear timeline of how long it is this project going
to take, not just the project's self, but design and
kind of having that roadmap laid out and be very
clear about what the completion date is going to be
(29:11):
and those type of things. And I know, again going
back to how you operate at Edge Construction, this stuff
is done, the timeline stuff and putting together that that
all of this stuff is done well before the actual
construction and demo stuff gets going, isn't it It is?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes? I mean, so we have our design period goes
from first meeting up until signing a contract, and from
after that we call it construction. Like that's where stuff
starts to happen. One of the first questions I get
when I walk in is when do you start? What
do you think the timelinees? Yeah, and I think I
(29:49):
can tell you that's a really unfair question, and I'll
tell you why. So if we have a kitcher model right,
that's going to take two or three months something like
that on average, if it's you know, unless we're really
doing a lot more. Generally, those projects spend a few
months in design, right, So we can't order cabinets until
(30:13):
the day we signed that contract. Cabinets take eight to
twelve weeks to get right, so it's two to three months.
Then we've got a set of start time for that
for the project, usually within a month of receiving the cabinets.
I don't like to start kitchens before we get to cabinets.
So you can see already we're going, Wow, we're talking
about you know, probably early next year. I would love
(30:34):
to be able to tell Homer we can start this
project in a couple months, and a lot of times
we can fit things in, but it just it has
to follow that process. I could lie and say we
can get to contract in a few weeks. It's just
not going to happen, right, there's too many decisions to make.
We're not going to rush you on that upfront process.
(30:55):
And then as far as a clear timeline, all right,
we're going to do the best we can on setting
up kind of a timeline. We don't. All we can
do is go from past experience and go, oh, a
typical project like this, there's some kind of window. That
list is how long it'll take once we get once
we get cabinetsen, and we set a start date. Then
(31:17):
I put together a schedule. Okay, that schedule is pretty good.
That doesn't mean something can't happen to screw it up.
So like when you sign a contract, I don't think
there's any remodelers in town that are going to guarantee you, Okay,
we'll be done in sixty days or ninety days. What
they should do and what we do is put in
(31:39):
a suggested timeline. So if we say your kitchen, we're
expecting to be done in ninety days, we're not guaranteeing
we're going to be done in ninety days. If we
say we're going to be done in ninety days, we
got to shoot for seventy five, right, I mean that's
just the way of the world. So a contract really
isn't a contract in my mind unless you put some
(32:01):
indication of time in there. So where where can this
go wrong if you sign a contract that doesn't put
any indication of time and that but maybe the maybe
the remodeler says, yeah, this kitchen take three months ish.
What happens if it takes six months? I don't know
if that's actionable, you know, I don't know if you
if if that's a lawsuit. If it takes a year,
(32:25):
which we hear these stories, that probably is, especially if
there is something in the contract of an expected timeline.
I mean, it could really show negligence on the part
of the remodeler.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
So a phrase I see too along these lines, Mike,
as we talk about that clear timeline is I see that?
Is it substantial completion data or something? What is that exactly?
I feel like I see that, and I hear that
a lot, and I'm like, Okay, I think I know
what that is, but I'm not one hundred percent certain
what that what that is?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So substantial completion has been part of construction contracts since
I started, Okay, And what it means is you the
the space can be used for its intended use. There
might be a few tiny little eyes to dot and
tease to cross. I don't know. Since since the start
of COVID, basically since twenty twenty, manufacturing has gone through
(33:15):
this sliding curve of unpredictability, and sometimes products come in
at the finish stage that don't look that great or
need to be remade, or maybe we've got to maybe
we've got to send a cabinet back, a cabint door
back in and get remade, or maybe we've we've got
we've got issues with something on the job. And so
(33:35):
it allows the homeowner to get in there and start
using that space. It's got to pass inspections and things
like that, but there's gonna be some good faith there
that your modeler is going to come in and actually
finish what they started, right it all. Also, it allows
things to proceed without closing out the contract one thousand percent, So.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
We have closing out the contract and just real quick
about I don't even know if this necessarily fits in,
but I don't think we brought this up building permits
and other things. And speaking of closing things out, that's
an important as we talk about regrets and mistake understanding
one who's pulling the permit and also who's responsible for
making sure that that permit also ultimately gets closed out.
(34:16):
That's an important it really is.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
So if you look at at the City of Madison,
they have it's called open permits. It's when a permit
does not get closed out. It means like a you know,
electrician can call in for inspection on a rough, like
when they're running the wires and the walls are open.
Inspector comes in and says, yes, this all looks good.
(34:40):
Close up the walls, do the finishes, put in the cabinets, countertops,
back splash, all that stuff. The inspector then has to
get called again to come back in and okay the finish.
We have had it where one inspector okay is the rough.
The next inspector won't okay the finish because you didn't
(35:02):
like something that happened on the off. It's like, well, okay,
now we're stuck because we can't peel finishes off the wall.
This only has really happened to us one time. Actually,
in the end, we gave in, pulled off backsplash, changed things.
It's very disruptive to a homeowner. I think unnecessary from
the inspector's standpoint, but we don't really have a leg
(35:23):
to stand on them, and so a lot of contractors
will leave that permit open not satisfy the final inspection.
Madison has thousands of open permits. The city, by the way,
has made an effort to go back in and force
homeowners and contractors to finish out these permits. Let me
(35:45):
tell you how much fun this sounds like when your
contractor is no longer around. The metality rate in the
remodeling industry is about eighty percent after two years. It's
worse than the restaurant business, by the way, And so
to get get somebody's I knew it this, there's a
pretty good chance they're not gonna be around in a
couple of years. And so you want to make sure
(36:05):
at the very least that your permits are closed out.
That means you've got file, inspection, file, occupancy should be
green tags, you know, on the way out. So and
as some owners, please accommodate those inspectors there. If they
come and they don't have access to the house or
you you don't let them in, you can't close.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Out your permit really important guys.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
There's I want to ask you too, and it's something
you probably could have talked about in the first thing,
the importance of a scope of work and what that is.
I want to ask you about that just a moment,
and unfortunately, I know we've done a deeper dive on
that as well. Unfortunately we're not going to give it
all the time it deserves, but definitely something worth mentioning
in this week's conversation. We talked this morning with Mike
two Wig of Edge Construction the website Edge Construction Company
(36:44):
dot com. All one word Edge Construction Company dot com.
Dowell number six so eight six three six three three
four three that number six three six Edge. Of course,
the homewer Modeling Show is brought you by Edge Construction
right here at thirteen ten WIB eight. This is the
home Modeling Show brought to you by Edge Construction online,
Edge Construction Company dot com. That's all one word Edge
(37:05):
Construction Company dot Com. Doub number six so eight six
three six three three four three that number six three
six Edge talk this week about avoiding mistakes and how
you can avoid mistakes when it comes to remodeling, and Mike,
I know We've done shows that go into really great
depth about the scope of work, why it's so important,
and for folks that want to really deep dive into it,
they can definitely listen back to those podcasts, but real quick,
(37:27):
that is an important part also about you know, avoiding
mistakes is really being clear about what's being done and
also what's not being done. And that's for folks that
aren't familiar with the term. That is an important part
of what you guys do, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, So the scope of the work is the bible
of what's going to happen on that on that job.
It's it's a list of every area of construction. It
covers behind the drywall, in front of the drywall, lays out,
lays out what's happening from demo and insallation, framing all
(38:01):
the way to the finishes. Our scope actually includes color
pictures of finished products, like our color picture of the cabinet,
the countertop, the sink, the actual sink in the right color,
the tiles in the right color. We we've learned to
include these things. All of those products, by the way,
have a number that's listed in the scope that if
you if you do a search on that number, it's
(38:23):
going to show the right product. And what we're trying
to do is make sure the wrong product doesn't show
up and get installed and give everybody on that job
that's working there a chance to catch it, including homers.
Sometimes homeowners have helped us out and went, you know what,
I looked up my sink and this is not right,
and we're going, oh no, we got to fix this.
But at least it gets caught. So the scope is
(38:45):
spope is is part of our contract. We are our
contract is is the shorter part of the thing. It
talks about payment and generalities and some of the some
of legalities of doing work together and this mayor of
contractor and homewner. The scope is attached to that and
it goes into so much detail, but it's it's really
(39:06):
helpful for you know, everybody in that job, from designers
down to people in.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Construction that also help homeowners understand what because I think
of like probably the prime example for me is like
kitchen and dining room is like, okay, where do you divide?
Like we're going to this is the area that we're
going to be working on. This is the area you
know that we're not and really making so everybody knows
like this is the work that is that included in
part of that scope as well, is.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Because you know, part of that scope is there's gonna
be a full plan set that's included in there. We'll
have a plan that you know, the demo areas are
outlined and read. We're going to talk about the pathway
and how to separate the construction zone from the regular
life zone and so that I think that's what you're
alluding to.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, by the way, as we talked to Mike, it's
pretty impressive stuff. And I know sometimes I get spoiled
because you get to hang out with Mikey each and
every week and get to learn this stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah,
I got to take it for this is. It's amazing
what they can do and what they do at Edge Construction.
A great thing about working with them, great data. Pick
phone gam mcow if you think about doing sermer modeling,
telephone number six O eight six three six three three
four three that number six three six edge online, Edgeconstruction
(40:09):
Company dot com. Of course Edge Construction brings you the
Homer Modeling Show right here on thirteen ten wiby eight
This is the whole remodeling show brought to you by
Edge Construction online edge Construction Company dot com. It's all
one word Edge Construction Company dot com. Really nice website
if you have been by recently, they're always updating it
with recent projects and other cool stuff. Again that's available
to you at Edge Construction Company dot com. Also check
out their Facebook, their Pinterest and their house links to you.
Of course, Pinterest and hows have some really cool stuff,
(00:23):
especially hows. I'm here looking for someone who really need
to check out as far as projects at Edge Construction
and a website, Edge Construction Company dot Com TELF number
six So wait six three six three three four to
three the number so easy to remember that six three
six Edge And joining us in studio this morning is
Mike two Egg of Edge Construction. Mike, how you doing
this week?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Right shot?
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It's good to talk to you, and we're going to
be talking mistakes and regrets, which is uh things regrets. Yeah, yeah,
there are sometimes like you know, uh, missing your exit
or something like that that's a minor just go down
next exit, turn around. When it comes to uh a
remodeling that could be a big thing and you really
want to do a lot of a lot of groundwork
(00:59):
and make sure that you do a lot of planning.
And so we're going to talk about, you know, really
how to avoid those things when it comes to the
remodeling project. Real quick though, before we get to this
week's topic, I mentioned the website Edgeconstruction Company dot com
also mentioned social media. I don't know if I mentioned Instagram.
I get on there from time to time. I love
Instagram because it's mostly just pictures and doesn't have all
the other stuff the other social platforms. AnyWho, I was
(01:23):
asking you about a recent posting up on your Instagram
page a bathroom room remodel, and the bathroom the remodel
looks amazing, and I was looking at the before pictures
and I saw something and I just said, we never
talked about this, And I know they exist. Sowfits and bathrooms.
They were a thing for a while, weren't they.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
They were a thing. I don't know why. Again, I
always make fun of myself a little bit because in
the eighties and nineties, when when you'd frame a house,
when you'd stick build a house, the last thing you
would do would be like, Okay, it's time to build
us up. As none of us ever knew why we
were doing it. Looking back, I think Oilders went, well,
(02:02):
if we we have eight foot ceilings and we build
a one foot soffit, then then we can buy a
thirty inch upper cabinet and save some money. But I mean,
it seems like a lot of effort to go through
to do that, Like it would have been probably cheaper
just to not build a soffit and put the cabinet up.
I don't know, but yeah, even bathrooms would have softae and.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
This one in particular.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So they used it for for heat, which is which
is interesting because I didn't do great in school, but
I do tend to recall heat rising. So if you
put it up to it's probably not the best location.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, I don't think that's where you want it, especially
in a bathroom. You know you're in there, You're probably
not you know you, I don't know. I don't wear
shoes in the bathroom. I don't know. Yeah, get up
in the morning to the bathroom. Yeah, but yeah, you
want the heat coming out low, especially in a bathroom.
But this one was was odd. It's a very nice house,
a pretty upscale home that was maybe thirty years old
and uh, and we got in there remodel. But yeah,
(02:54):
they built they ran a heat up the wall and
out through that soffit, so it was kind of coming
down now where anybody would stand or even be. And
so yeah, when we've when we've fixed her up, we
rerouted that heat and uh brought it out low underneath
cabinet where you'd want. I mean, that's where you're that's
where you're gonna stand. You want to be warm, that's
where you want.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Some of the things and one of the things too
before we get to this week's conversation about mistakes and regrets.
One of the things I did notice too about the
before pictures a little outdated as far as style and
of course with the soffits, but the overall design wasn't terrible.
It wasn't like a like to me, I look at
that and like if if Christine and I were buying
that home, we'd go, like, that's something we need to
(03:35):
address someday, maybe not today, but in something. Uh, what's
triggered the the remodel project on this.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, that bathroom right, you're right, it was functional, like
the shower still work, the sinks work, the it had
all the elements you need for a bathroom. It wasn't
necessarily falling apart, but they did have a valve let
loose underneath one of the cabinets undernath one of those sinks.
The valves are those things you turn to shut the
water off if you're gonna replace the sink, and a
lot of times water damage starts at the valve. So
(04:04):
whenever we are remodeling, you know, if we have a
chance to get at those valves, we're gonna put new
ones on there and replace those because that's generally the
failing point. So that uh, water let loose and ruin
the cabinets in there, and that's what triggered that part
of the remodel. Uh. Unfortunately, the right underneath that was
(04:24):
a big beautiful kitchen with cherry cabinets and and uh
more soppets, and those stoppits are just filled up with water.
Oh no, ran down the walls and and uh you know,
ended up ended up doing a fairly major remodel on
the first floor of that house because you know, that
water just uh went everywhere you could think of.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
This is something I've never asked you about before, but
with something like that, obviously a homeowner can do an
insurance claim. Do you guys get that often times where
folks are like, we've had this, this incident occur and
we've got, as you know, a check from the insurance companies.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Maybe the starting point or does that go on at all?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It's a starting point. You know. We actually look at
quite a few of those jobs. We don't we don't
get many of them because insurance companies do not pay
what replacement cost is. So what happens is they they
a lot of times will we'll work with the the
demo contractors that that come in and stop the bleeding
(05:21):
and dry things out. There's that's kind of a specialty business.
And uh, it sort of forces those people to have
some drivellers and have people with some skill sets, but
they're not really remodelers. And so I'm gonna give it
to the insurance companies a little bit. And and home
owners too, Okay, home owers, probably you always feel like
it's never gonna happen to me. But then when you
(05:42):
go to replace it, you wanna, you wanna, you know,
you want it. You want to replaced to its former
glory at least, and that's not what insurance is generally
paying to do. They're paying to do the absolute minimum.
Uh so this this, uh, this fix was probably fifty
thousand dollars away from what insurance paid. So I was
(06:04):
a pretty savvy homeowner and I know he beat him
up a little bit and got him to come up
some I'm not sure what, but you know if you
bought to if you want a brand new Kyi, you're
not going to ensure it. You know, if that thing
gets a certain amount of damage, you want it replaced.
And then some you want to be able to buy
at least the vehicle that you had before. And for
some reason, on homeowner's insurance it doesn't really work that way.
(06:28):
And I'm betting though, that you can upgrade a little
bit and make sure that you don't have this happen
to you.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Hey, along those lines, and kind of tying in with
what we're going to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
About this week is is you know, you look at
that stuff and I think a lot of times to
kind of underestimate what that that project is going to
cost is like we think, oh yeah, I'll just you know,
it's insurance or whatever is is. People don't always understand.
And I know at edge construction, a really important thing
is talking about a budgeting and talking about what the
project is going to cost. What is that people when
(06:58):
it comes to some of the ats, some of the
mistakes and remodeling oftentimes comes down to not fully understanding
what a good quality remodel is is going to cost.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it if you if you do a search on
the the biggest problems with you know, where things start
to go wrong on a remodel project. The first thing that
comes up in every case is undrestming the cost and
so that it's it's it's not just when if a
(07:28):
homeowner does it themselves. I know, there's I'm trying to
think of something I've talked my wife into where I said, oh,
it's we're going to save all this money and I'm
gonna and then it almost never works out quit that way.
You know, it could be could be anything from you know,
we I like fixing cars, and so I could be there,
uh you know, oh you bought the wrong parts and
(07:50):
then rectum, so we got to buy all the brand
new parts. I mean that's the thing. That same type
of thing can happen on a remodel project. And you know,
I wouldn't expect a horner to be able to nail
that budget, that initial budget number. You know, if they're
if they're doing this on their own. It's you see
those things right that that if you're looking at the
(08:10):
pictures online, you're going, you know, okay, I can pick
out cabins, I can pick out tops, I can I
can I can do some of these things, all those
all the all that discretionary money is the stuff you
can see, and so you can put a figure to that.
But don't forget about the valves, right and so it's
not just the valves. There's a lot of stuff behind
the walls and a lot a lot goes into it
(08:32):
that you you know, initially can't plan.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
For you think about two you mentioned some of the
discretionary stuff and the stuff that you can see, think
about water damage for example. The stuff that you can't
see is really these especially if talking about the second floor,
and these these can be significant repairs that can't be ignored.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They can't. And so just like, uh, you know, I
picked on the homeowners right like you're I don't know
how you could really estimate cost accurately if without a
lot of experience, A lot a lot of experience. Same
thing with contractors. If contractors, the less experienced they are,
the more chance they're going to miss something on the
(09:10):
front end and oh later on you're going once in
a while, this happens to us, by the way, but
as if you listen to the show, you you know
that we we stick to our contracted price unless it's
a uh, you know, there's there's things that come up
that home owners want us to do extras or stuff
like that, but or change orders. But otherwise we whatever
(09:30):
we contract for, that's what we come in at. If
if you look up online, you know, advice on doing
a remodel, one of the first things that the experts
are going to say is ill withhold ten to thirty
percent of this project. So so if the product is
going to cost one hundred thousand, that means you should
have another twenty thirty grand sitting there. Or if you've
(09:53):
something goes wrong right, and I will tell you it
almost always goes wrong right if you're if you sign
a contract that's kind of open ended and leaves a
lot of outs for the for the contractor to go.
You know, I found found this this's the TV thing, right,
if you open up the wall on TV, they always
find something and it always cost at least ten grand. Hmm, okay,
(10:16):
well I guess we'll just have to pay it. You know,
there's it's not really a decision, right, you have to
do that stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And that and and for folks speaking of folks that
have been listening to this program for a while, open
ending it open ended is not how how you operate
it for a number of reasons. I mean, that's that's
it's important for you to at edge construction to really
have a very clear uh contract, very clear plan for attack,
and very clear budget, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It is? But you know, it's also like an experience
saying like I don't want to underestimate costs either, like
I want to make sure that that we know we
can predict how this job is going to go, and
and that way our our costs are are don't change.
I think that a lot of times starting off with
(11:00):
a more realistic cost that way, I turn it as
kind of tearing off the band aid. I know where
we're priced in the market. We're not the most expensive,
we're not the least, We're somewhere in the middle. And
it's very repeatable. So I think it's just having the
experience to be able to predict what's going to happen
(11:20):
on that job. It's pretty hard to do when you're
young at it. I know when I was younger at this,
I probably made some mistakes that I know I did actually,
and I think that you should. That would be a
great question for your model. Okay, okay, we're going to
sign a contract to do a kitchener model. What is
(11:41):
something unforeseen that could happen that is going to raise
the cost of this for me? I've signed a contract
at this number. And then my next question would be
do you not have enough experience to foresee that problem?
I mean, like if you shine the light a little farther,
could you have predicted this? And and and then we
(12:01):
could come in at a contracted price.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know, we were talking before the show about about
cars and stuff like that, and as we're talking about,
you know, underestimating costs and the budget and and those
type of those type of areas, and of course choosing
the cheapest thing. I think a lot of us when
it comes to our first car, maybe like ever have
to like put new tires or something on our car,
we'd go with the super cheapest ones you could you
(12:24):
could come up with lesson learned. You start to discover
that paying a little and not talking about top of
the line, you know, super performance stars, but getting like
the brand name and kind of some of the things
it does actually go a very long way. Ones.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
There are bad ones, and we've there's a lot of
options in the construction side, and there are products that
I won't use anymore. Take a guess at why I
won't use them. Try it in the past, right, like so,
like that is some of that stuff you just can't
you you know, it's hard to predict. And so when
(13:01):
I'm looking at products now, I go, well, okay, this
is a there are tough times. Our designers are going
we like to look at this product. It's half as
much as the one we're currently using. And I instantly
that red light starts buzzing in the corner of my eye,
going okay, why is this? Where's it coming from? Something's
missing from the equation. Either it's either it's the it's
(13:23):
a source that's not very predictable, like we don't know
when it's going to come, or maybe it's going to
go out of production or or or they're or they're
just getting rid of what's left of a production run.
This happens quite a bit in construction, or it's a
or it's a lesser quality, and then it's it's sort
of like a product roulette, right, you don't know, you
don't know if you're going to be the you know
(13:43):
you're gonna have the bad luck that if it's going
to fail, if it's going to fail out a one
out of ten times, you might be that number ten.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Earlier used it the phrase ripping the band aid off,
and kind of when we talk about like budget other things,
that's a hard Let's I'm gonna be honest, is I
think for anybody that's a hard thing to do sometimes.
Obviously we don't always like to talk budget. People don't
like to talk money, but people don't also like to
It's not like it's a whole lot easier to tell
you this. We'll get well, we'll do this project ten
(14:12):
thousand dollars, twelve thousand dollars and then do it. Everybody's happy,
everybody's excited. It's always easy than to come back and say,
we're going to this thing, need a little extra money.
It's like, sometimes though, is being and that sometimes being
realistic upfront kind of having that. It may seem tough,
but the value, there's a huge value to the overall
project of saying, let's be realistic about what we're doing,
(14:35):
what we're paying for, and how this project is going
to go.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean and whether it's ten grand or two
hundred grand, Yeah, that's a lot of money like in
our world. So I think people need to plan for
those kinds of times. The firmer your plan can be
the better because you got to you gotta live with
those numbers if you A huge problem in the in
our industry is that contract will come in low. Right,
(15:01):
They're gonna figure low end finishes to start with, even
though they know in the end nobody picks those low
end finishes. Yeah, Like it just doesn't happen. And so
you can have a budget grow by thirty forty percent
through that design process. And that's just getting to what
normal people pick. That's not adding to the scope. That's
not that's not you know, we call it scope creep
(15:24):
or things just keep getting added in that that will
increase your cost. But just by by picking out normal products.
So if you look at our electrical package on a kitchen,
we start off with lots of lighting under cabinet lighting,
be able to control it with dinners and do all
(15:45):
the things, upgrade all the electrical to a really good level,
not the minimum level, because in the end that's what
almost everybody picks. Yeah, we could start off go oh,
do you want under cabinet lights? Well, nine to nine
percent of projects pick catalyzed. But so I think it's
a more honest way to do it is just to
start at least at the standard.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, what people?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, And that's and that's one of the great things
that we talked to about different you know, your experience
and history at edge construction and what's offered and having
those conversations those are important questions to be asking as
well your contractors, like where is that starting point and
what is kind of that that minimum. We're going to
talk with Mike a little bit more about that. Wa
also talk as we go through mistakes and regrets. Sometimes
folks decide, you know, what the cheapest route is to
(16:28):
do it myself and unfortunately learn the hard way that
there's a reason why the Mike and his team have
this skill and why they spend so much time doing
this stuff, because it'd be very, very complicated, very we're
talking Mike about some of the things he's encountered there.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
We will do all of that next.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
The Homer Modeling Show with Edge Construction continues right here
on thirteen ten Wuiba. This is the Homer Modeling Show
brought you by Edge Construction Online. Edge Construction Company dot com,
great website, as we talked this week with Mike two
egg of Edge Construction. Of course, you can always check
out their work that website always updating it. The best
(17:04):
place to go though, is once you get to Edge
Construction Company dot com. Click that little green h for
how's houzz really cool projects? A lot of great projects
from Edge Construction on their house page or top number
six so eight six three six three three four to
three that number six three six Edge talking about mistakes
and regrets when it comes to remodeling, and more importantly,
how to avoid them. And Mike, we've all been tempted
(17:27):
to do something, be a di wire. Sometimes they go well,
sometimes it's very enjoyable, other times it does not go well.
And I think one of the ways folks try to
save money is like, hey, I can do this on
my own and I got skill set. That's great, but
a lot of us don't have that skill set. How
often are you are you getting calls from that may
(17:48):
have either they personally did or maybe the perse previous
owner had maybe done a DIY project and you guys
are coming in to kind of clean that up.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, I'll throw the the flip culture in there too,
or people were flipping houses and kind of had a
few maybe they're handy, yeah, but they were they We're
coming out of a thing where a lot of people
did what I would call not a fuller model or
not a real model. It was sort of a facelift. Okay,
I'm gonna hit the big box store on a Saturday
(18:17):
and and load up my cart with whatever the clearance
right has on it will make this work. And it's
kind of that's how you end up with houses that
have four different kinds of flooring on the first floor
and and maybe some odd things you know that at
first glance look okay. But and and we're a lot
of people like get that have kind of gotten it
(18:37):
on that thing, were the first time home buyers, right
because they hadn't been through this, they didn't really dig
deeper and find out, you know, figure out what they
were looking at or pull somebody in that could help
them to decide, because you know, you if you found
a house in the last few years, you know a
(18:57):
lot of that a lot of that time, those houses
would have twenty bids on them in the first you know,
twenty offers on them in the first couple of weeks.
And and so you did you weren't really you couldn't
really have a lot of discretion, you know, like you
were just trying to get in get in the house.
So yeah, fixing that stuff, we get called a fair
amount to finish things up, or maybe we're gonna do
(19:18):
the kitchen and then oh yeah, let's look at this
bathroom here for a kind of things might have went wrong,
or a run out Ronald may have been started. You know,
we don't mind that stuff at all. By the way,
we'll we happy to help.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Clean did fix it all up.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And you know one of the things too, is as
you were talking about, like flippers and other things I
think you know first time home buyers as well, is
we often can get lured in by by pretty pictures
and nice looking space. I think of like kitchens, for example,
things like you know, somebody just decided to throw a
coat of paint on the cabinets and maybe bought the
whatever the sale was on the on the flooring that week,
(19:50):
threw that stuff down, And like when you first get
in there, I think, and I think you in the
past have compared it to kind of like a like
a brand new car. I think you use the you go,
I don't want to steal because.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I remember you, right, every brand new car looks nice like, yeah,
people bought to you goo right, yeah, and they didn't
go by the way, it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Did not had the same thing happens with with some
of these you know, flipped homes and and and those
type of things where they look great in pictures and
you know, if you're not concerned about function or durability,
they seem just fine. It's once you start living in
it and you realize, well, this paint starting to chip
off and scratch, and.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, this is not a new phenomenon. Like, okay, we're
picking on the flippers. I think you know, I'm not
a fan of that deal. There was nothing healthy about
the flip thing. It was. It was just people capitalizing
on on other people and taking advantage of them. And
you know, like some of those shows, by the way,
people have been been been sued and prosecuted for for
(20:52):
basically what they did to those houses. But there was
before all that happened. People still would sometimes ignore a
fatal flaw in a house just to get the house.
Because I always called it kind of rooting for the house. Okay,
a lot of times it happens when you pull up
your thinking, oh, I love it, great yard right outside.
(21:17):
It didn't matter if the whole house was covered in
black mole. We're still going to buy this. You know.
It's like, okay, let's say, not that bad really, but
but but buyer, beware right when it is worth it
if you're going to buy this house, to get somebody
to help you figure out where it's at.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
You know, when we're talking to about d I Y,
I think for if you're a homeowner, one of the
reasons why you might do it yourself is is because
you're cheap. Obviously, flippers are doing it for for another
reason as well, But that is also a mistake that
that homeowners can make, is simply looking at the cheapest contractor.
You were mentioning earlier about things like change orders and
(21:55):
other things like that. It's not to say it's easy
but it's it's something that that can be done where
a contractor come in with the lowest bid and kind
of as you were talking that last segment about you know,
everything is kind of an add on. You want that
some of the things that are considered, you know, at
edge construction as being just part of the package. Other
contractors are literally those are those are additional costs. So
(22:16):
really making sure that you're understanding what the contractor is offering,
what that contract is is like, and understanding that the
cheapest contractor doesn't necessarily mean at the end of the day,
it's going to be the cheapest project.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
No, not necessarily, And and you know you're gonna want
to know where their floor is on the materials that
are going to go in there. Like right, like we
alluded to last time, was that there's a lot of
stuff that we won't use and it's because I've used
it in the past or had bad experiences and I
just don't want that phone call of a of a
failing product or something caused a problem. Most of the time,
(22:52):
if there's somebody that is uh, you know, if you've
bid out your project and there's somebody that's that's unnaturally
low there like, that's that's really low. It tend to
be it tends to be an experienced thing like they
have underbid. Uh, occasionally it's gonna be I have to
keep my people busy, so I'm gonna I'm gonna go
low and probably lose money on your project, Uh, just
(23:13):
to get it so I have something for for the
people to do, for the for your for your employees
to do. Also a very bad plan, right, I think
it actually what I think that scenario usually works a
lot better for the contractor than for the homeowner. And say, well,
how can that be if if this contractor is going
to work at a loss. It's because how much of
a priority do you think your project is going to
(23:34):
be if somebody underbids it and it is losing money
on it, Like it's gonna be something that sort of
gets fit in and they're gonna they're gonna tend to
apply their resources to the projects that are that are profitable.
And so if if somebody does really bid low, you
just I'm not saying you can't take them. I'm just
(23:55):
saying dig in. Yeah, you know, ask questions, why are
why are you so low? Why is everybody else just wrong?
On putting out this project? Are you gonna are you
going to deliver this job no matter what at the
contracted price? What's your floor on materials? What's your experience level?
Maybe they just have no overhead, right if somebody it
just has a pickup truck and kind of can do
(24:17):
everything themselves. You know, there's sometimes that around and maybe
they just have no overhead and they can work cheaper.
That's possible, So somebody like that's established. I think your
your results are and should be more predictable, so that
that okay, if that costs a little more, What am
I getting for that? You might be getting the design services,
(24:40):
you might be getting the experience factor where I know
what's going to happen when we open up that wall,
and I know what the inspectors are going to say,
and I know how much labor it's going to take
to fix whatever we find back there. And then you know,
like I mentioned the floor on material cost, like on
material quality, that's a pretty big thing.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
What about you you too, for you know some of
that experience and kind of predicting and understanding kind of
what's going to go into it. Do you ever see
does this go on or if you ever hear of this.
We're like a contractor that that may come in as
the lowest bid, maybe because that inexperience, something comes up
where they literally just say I'm out, like like I
maybe not even say that, like just stopped answering the
(25:21):
phone and just stop showing up. I mean I I'm
guessing you've probably heard stories of things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yes, of course here that here routinely there's the disappearing
subcontractor story is a thing. This this is happening right
now in town where the if you're lying, you know,
we do a lot of stuff in house. And that's
for a reason, right because I feel like there's risk
(25:49):
with if we have to hire subcontractors, and so there's
the risk of that we for me, there's the risk
of and it has happened in my past where we
have somebody locked down. All all signs are good, all
signs are go when it comes time to actually do
the work. Happened to us with a contry contractor that
(26:11):
we had for several years a couple of years ago.
All of a sudden, no answer in the phone, no
returning text messages, no what's email. I don't know what
that is. Anymore, and we can't, we can't come to respond,
and really what it is, Okay, they're bad communicators, but
there's it's an avoidance issue. Right things didn't go well
on a few other projects. They're way backed up. They
(26:34):
just don't want to talk to us right now. And
for a home work, it's pretty frustrating, you know, because
you're going, well, I hired you Mike to do this job,
and now you're saying this sub is is causing a problem.
So we're constantly trying to subvert that by if we
do subcontract something out which you know concretes one of them,
(26:55):
we have upgraded our source so much more predictable, much
better communicator much you know, now twenty years ago, I
might I'm gonna I might not have had access to, uh,
a subcontract like that, because they're everybody wants those people.
They're fantastic to work with, and it's just hard to
get them.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It's and if you mentioned you mentioned that too about
about being able to work with and and you know
you think of some of these, you know, those the
people that if you do have to use a sub
that are very reliable, very predictable, everything about them, high demand,
that that you know, you think about then the reputation
of Edge Construction makes it a whole lot easier to
(27:36):
be working with them regularly because they know. Conversely, just
like they're predictable, they're they're good on time, they're good
on schedules. Edge Construction that same type of thing. It's
a it's a really good partnership and a really good,
really good relationship there as well. I do want to
ask you about, as we talked this week with Mike
two Wig of Edge Construction, about some of the mistakes
and regrets and ways to avoid them. The importance of
(27:58):
a clear timeline. We'll talkalk with Mike about that. That
is a big, big thing when it comes to remodeling.
If you have been to the website recently, definitely head
on over Edgeconstruction Company dot com. That's all one word,
Edge Construction Company dot com. They're tough number six so
eight six three six three three four three that number
so easy to remember, six three six edge. Of course,
Edge Construction brings you the Homer Modeling Show right here
thirteen ten double you ib A. This is the Homer
(28:27):
Modeling Show, brought to you by Edge Construction online. Edge
Construction Company dot com. It's all one word Edge Construction
Company dot com. They are tough number six So eight
six three six three three four to three that number
six three six Edge talking to this week with Mike
Twoey of Edge Construction about construction related mistakes and how
to avoid them. I think they call that avoiding regret
and MIC And that last last segment touched on it
(28:48):
a bit there about contractors that uh and subs and
others that kind of disappear and kind of ghost. But
also an important thing to do is have a very
clear timeline of how long it is this project going
to take, not just the project's self, but design and
kind of having that roadmap laid out and be very
clear about what the completion date is going to be
(29:11):
and those type of things. And I know, again going
back to how you operate at Edge Construction, this stuff
is done, the timeline stuff and putting together that that
all of this stuff is done well before the actual
construction and demo stuff gets going, isn't it It is?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes? I mean, so we have our design period goes
from first meeting up until signing a contract, and from
after that we call it construction. Like that's where stuff
starts to happen. One of the first questions I get
when I walk in is when do you start? What
do you think the timelinees? Yeah, and I think I
(29:49):
can tell you that's a really unfair question, and I'll
tell you why. So if we have a kitcher model right,
that's going to take two or three months something like
that on average, if it's you know, unless we're really
doing a lot more. Generally, those projects spend a few
months in design, right, So we can't order cabinets until
(30:13):
the day we signed that contract. Cabinets take eight to
twelve weeks to get right, so it's two to three months.
Then we've got a set of start time for that
for the project, usually within a month of receiving the cabinets.
I don't like to start kitchens before we get to cabinets.
So you can see already we're going, Wow, we're talking
about you know, probably early next year. I would love
(30:34):
to be able to tell Homer we can start this
project in a couple months, and a lot of times
we can fit things in, but it just it has
to follow that process. I could lie and say we
can get to contract in a few weeks. It's just
not going to happen, right, there's too many decisions to make.
We're not going to rush you on that upfront process.
(30:55):
And then as far as a clear timeline, all right,
we're going to do the best we can on setting
up kind of a timeline. We don't. All we can
do is go from past experience and go, oh, a
typical project like this, there's some kind of window. That
list is how long it'll take once we get once
we get cabinetsen, and we set a start date. Then
(31:17):
I put together a schedule. Okay, that schedule is pretty good.
That doesn't mean something can't happen to screw it up.
So like when you sign a contract, I don't think
there's any remodelers in town that are going to guarantee you, Okay,
we'll be done in sixty days or ninety days. What
they should do and what we do is put in
(31:39):
a suggested timeline. So if we say your kitchen, we're
expecting to be done in ninety days, we're not guaranteeing
we're going to be done in ninety days. If we
say we're going to be done in ninety days, we
got to shoot for seventy five, right, I mean that's
just the way of the world. So a contract really
isn't a contract in my mind unless you put some
(32:01):
indication of time in there. So where where can this
go wrong if you sign a contract that doesn't put
any indication of time and that but maybe the maybe
the remodeler says, yeah, this kitchen take three months ish.
What happens if it takes six months? I don't know
if that's actionable, you know, I don't know if you
if if that's a lawsuit. If it takes a year,
(32:25):
which we hear these stories, that probably is, especially if
there is something in the contract of an expected timeline.
I mean, it could really show negligence on the part
of the remodeler.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
So a phrase I see too along these lines, Mike,
as we talk about that clear timeline is I see that?
Is it substantial completion data or something? What is that exactly?
I feel like I see that, and I hear that
a lot, and I'm like, Okay, I think I know
what that is, but I'm not one hundred percent certain
what that what that is?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So substantial completion has been part of construction contracts since
I started, Okay, And what it means is you the
the space can be used for its intended use. There
might be a few tiny little eyes to dot and
tease to cross. I don't know. Since since the start
of COVID, basically since twenty twenty, manufacturing has gone through
(33:15):
this sliding curve of unpredictability, and sometimes products come in
at the finish stage that don't look that great or
need to be remade, or maybe we've got to maybe
we've got to send a cabinet back, a cabint door
back in and get remade, or maybe we've we've got
we've got issues with something on the job. And so
(33:35):
it allows the homeowner to get in there and start
using that space. It's got to pass inspections and things
like that, but there's gonna be some good faith there
that your modeler is going to come in and actually
finish what they started, right it all. Also, it allows
things to proceed without closing out the contract one thousand percent, So.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
We have closing out the contract and just real quick
about I don't even know if this necessarily fits in,
but I don't think we brought this up building permits
and other things. And speaking of closing things out, that's
an important as we talk about regrets and mistake understanding
one who's pulling the permit and also who's responsible for
making sure that that permit also ultimately gets closed out.
(34:16):
That's an important it really is.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
So if you look at at the City of Madison,
they have it's called open permits. It's when a permit
does not get closed out. It means like a you know,
electrician can call in for inspection on a rough, like
when they're running the wires and the walls are open.
Inspector comes in and says, yes, this all looks good.
(34:40):
Close up the walls, do the finishes, put in the cabinets, countertops,
back splash, all that stuff. The inspector then has to
get called again to come back in and okay the finish.
We have had it where one inspector okay is the rough.
The next inspector won't okay the finish because you didn't
(35:02):
like something that happened on the off. It's like, well, okay,
now we're stuck because we can't peel finishes off the wall.
This only has really happened to us one time. Actually,
in the end, we gave in, pulled off backsplash, changed things.
It's very disruptive to a homeowner. I think unnecessary from
the inspector's standpoint, but we don't really have a leg
(35:23):
to stand on them, and so a lot of contractors
will leave that permit open not satisfy the final inspection.
Madison has thousands of open permits. The city, by the way,
has made an effort to go back in and force
homeowners and contractors to finish out these permits. Let me
(35:45):
tell you how much fun this sounds like when your
contractor is no longer around. The metality rate in the
remodeling industry is about eighty percent after two years. It's
worse than the restaurant business, by the way, And so
to get get somebody's I knew it this, there's a
pretty good chance they're not gonna be around in a
couple of years. And so you want to make sure
(36:05):
at the very least that your permits are closed out.
That means you've got file, inspection, file, occupancy should be
green tags, you know, on the way out. So and
as some owners, please accommodate those inspectors there. If they
come and they don't have access to the house or
you you don't let them in, you can't close.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Out your permit really important guys.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
There's I want to ask you too, and it's something
you probably could have talked about in the first thing,
the importance of a scope of work and what that is.
I want to ask you about that just a moment,
and unfortunately, I know we've done a deeper dive on
that as well. Unfortunately we're not going to give it
all the time it deserves, but definitely something worth mentioning
in this week's conversation. We talked this morning with Mike
two Wig of Edge Construction the website Edge Construction Company
(36:44):
dot com. All one word Edge Construction Company dot com.
Dowell number six so eight six three six three three
four three that number six three six Edge. Of course,
the homewer Modeling Show is brought you by Edge Construction
right here at thirteen ten WIB eight. This is the
home Modeling Show brought to you by Edge Construction online,
Edge Construction Company dot com. That's all one word Edge
(37:05):
Construction Company dot Com. Doub number six so eight six
three six three three four three that number six three
six Edge talk this week about avoiding mistakes and how
you can avoid mistakes when it comes to remodeling, and Mike,
I know We've done shows that go into really great
depth about the scope of work, why it's so important,
and for folks that want to really deep dive into it,
they can definitely listen back to those podcasts, but real quick,
(37:27):
that is an important part also about you know, avoiding
mistakes is really being clear about what's being done and
also what's not being done. And that's for folks that
aren't familiar with the term. That is an important part
of what you guys do, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, So the scope of the work is the bible
of what's going to happen on that on that job.
It's it's a list of every area of construction. It
covers behind the drywall, in front of the drywall, lays out,
lays out what's happening from demo and insallation, framing all
(38:01):
the way to the finishes. Our scope actually includes color
pictures of finished products, like our color picture of the cabinet,
the countertop, the sink, the actual sink in the right color,
the tiles in the right color. We we've learned to
include these things. All of those products, by the way,
have a number that's listed in the scope that if
you if you do a search on that number, it's
(38:23):
going to show the right product. And what we're trying
to do is make sure the wrong product doesn't show
up and get installed and give everybody on that job
that's working there a chance to catch it, including homers.
Sometimes homeowners have helped us out and went, you know what,
I looked up my sink and this is not right,
and we're going, oh no, we got to fix this.
But at least it gets caught. So the scope is
(38:45):
spope is is part of our contract. We are our
contract is is the shorter part of the thing. It
talks about payment and generalities and some of the some
of legalities of doing work together and this mayor of
contractor and homewner. The scope is attached to that and
it goes into so much detail, but it's it's really
(39:06):
helpful for you know, everybody in that job, from designers
down to people in.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Construction that also help homeowners understand what because I think
of like probably the prime example for me is like
kitchen and dining room is like, okay, where do you divide?
Like we're going to this is the area that we're
going to be working on. This is the area you
know that we're not and really making so everybody knows
like this is the work that is that included in
part of that scope as well, is.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Because you know, part of that scope is there's gonna
be a full plan set that's included in there. We'll
have a plan that you know, the demo areas are
outlined and read. We're going to talk about the pathway
and how to separate the construction zone from the regular
life zone and so that I think that's what you're
alluding to.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, by the way, as we talked to Mike, it's
pretty impressive stuff. And I know sometimes I get spoiled
because you get to hang out with Mikey each and
every week and get to learn this stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah,
I got to take it for this is. It's amazing
what they can do and what they do at Edge Construction.
A great thing about working with them, great data. Pick
phone gam mcow if you think about doing sermer modeling,
telephone number six O eight six three six three three
four three that number six three six edge online, Edgeconstruction
(40:09):
Company dot com. Of course Edge Construction brings you the
Homer Modeling Show right here on thirteen ten wiby eight
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