October 23, 2018 • 12 mins
An interview with Brian McCullough, author of How the Internet Happened. The new book that takes you on an amazing ride from the beginnings of Netscape to the launch of iPhone. It's a fast, fun and informative journey down memory lane for some, important lessons of the dot-com world for others.How the Internet Happened: From Netscape to the iPhone 1st Editionhttps://amzn.to/2D17oaaFollow Rich on Social Media:Facebook: http://facebook.com/RichOnTechTwitter: http://twitter.com/richdemuroInstagram: http://instagram.com/richontech Easy ways to listen on your phone or smart speaker:"Hey Google, Play the Rich on Tech Podcast""Hey Siri, Play the Rich on Tech Podcast""Alexa, Enable the Rich on Tech Flash Briefing"
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
How the Internet Happened, the new book that I am
just loving. What's going on. I'm Rich Damiro. This is
Rich on Tech. Joining me today is Brian McCullough. He
is the author of a new book called How the
Internet Happened. It's available today. Man, I've been reading this
and it is just fascinating. It's basically the world that
I live through the Internet bubble, the burst, and I
(00:26):
basically get to relive all of my college and post
college years through this book.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Brian, thanks so much for joining me this morning to
talk about the book.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Oh, Rich, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So Brian.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
You also host the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast, which
is literally the first thing I listened to every day
on my way to work, which I know it's called
the ride home, but it's also for me the ride
in as well.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Is that Okay?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, And you know, like thirty
percent of the audiences overseas, so god knows what part
of their day part they listen.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Then you also host the Internet History podcast. Tell me
about that?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, Well, essentially the Internet History Podcast is how we
got the book. Because I'm actually a tech guy myself.
I founded three different web companies, and I'm used to
immediate feedback, So when I had this idea to write
this book, I wasn't used to going away in a
room and maybe three or four years later something coming
out of it. So as I was doing research and
(01:20):
getting interviews with primary sources, I'm recording them and I
just thought to myself, well why not throw them out
on the web as a podcast. And the podcast almost
took off and made me forget about doing the book,
But then it all came full circle and the books
out today.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I love the journey that you take readers on in
the book because it is how the Internet happened. And
if you remember any of these little things, these milestones
that happened over the years, like Netflix starting and Blockbusters
sort of starting their rival to that, and Netscape and Yahoo,
it really is a great ride that you bring them on.
How did you kind of come up with the way
(01:58):
you were going to do this book?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Well, I mean, in a way, the title could almost
be how the Internet happened to us. You know, there
have been other well done history books going back to
the arpaet and how the Internet itself, you know, was
came out of the military and academia and things like that.
But what I was interested in is, you know, what
has been more disruptive is the word that everyone likes
to use, but what's been the biggest revolution in all
(02:23):
of our daily lives? So I wanted to talk about
the era when the Internet started happening to us. And
you know, even things like you know, my wife is like, oh,
tell talk about Excite. Excite was where I got my
first email address, or you know, people always say, tell
us about GeoCities or Napster, and people have these really
formative personal connections to these companies and this technology. And
(02:49):
even though you know there's individual books about all these
different companies, I thought no one had put it all
together in one sort of narrative. And even though it
is essentially just the A led to b Let to
see you, I think you can see how it infiltrated
basically all of modern life.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
And what I love about the story that you tell
is two things. Number One, you did this in a
very consumer friendly way where anyone can understand what happened
and kind of see like what the founders were thinking
and what the kind of results of their actions were
to the average person like me, and you like.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
You said, Yeah, I was always thinking of my dad,
keeping my dad in mind. You know, here's how you
got a supercomputer in your pocket. But then also, you know,
I talked to a lot of kids in air quotes,
people entering the tech industry today, twenty four, twenty five,
twenty six years old. And you know, if you're twenty six,
you maybe never heard a modem dial up sound. You know,
(03:45):
a Facebook is almost fifteen years old, so people might
not remember there was a MySpace before Facebook and things
like that. That's that's what I wanted to try to capture.
The industry itself is not good about its own history
because everybody's always focused on what's next, what's next, the new,
the next version in the next gadget, that sort of thing.
But there's a lot of valuable lessons in looking back
as at like I said, at the A led to
(04:06):
B led to C even to even give you a
hint about what might be coming next.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It all starts with Netscape, right, And I remember downloading Netscape,
and then of course we all switched to Firefox, and
then of course we all switched to Chrome. So tell
me about how Netscape kind of the word you use,
they let the riff raff in right.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yes, because you know he he denies it. But Tim
berners Lee, who invented the Worldwide Web, originally really conceived
of it as an academic sort of tool. And the
kids at the University of Illinois, among them Mark Andresen,
they really conceived of it as this kind of sexy,
sort of new kind of medium that could have newspapers
(04:50):
and movies and you know, videos and things. So essentially
the thing that the Netscape browser did, it was sort
of a chicken and an egg. It was a lot
of people's first introduction to the web, and so they
would get on a Netscape browser, try the web for
the first time, see all this cool stuff that was
suddenly popping up, and then they themselves wanted to go
(05:12):
off and create some of this cool stuff. So Netscape
both made the Web mainstream and was mainstreamed by the
Web being mainstream.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And I'll never forget.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
And I, like I said, Brian, when you're when I'm
reading this book, I felt like you were inside my
brain because everything in this book sort of happened to
me as I went along. But I'll never forget. I
had AOL and I remember going to this AOL sort
of portal that said the world Wide Web is coming soon.
Because AOL was not the Web, right, but they had
this little section of AOL that like you can kind
(05:43):
of access the Web through before they had a browser
built in. It was really crazy, and you talk about
that in the book, which I thought was really cool.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, and this is another thing that, like people that
listened to the Internet History podcast, when I've done stories
or Sorry episodes on things like AOL, I would get
these tweets and emails saying thank you, I didn't actually
understand what AOL actually did, Like, if there's the Web,
why does AOL need to be there?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And I get it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, Again, if you're twenty six and the internet's just
always been around in the ether, things like an ISP
and a dial up modem and things like that, you
didn't understand what it was for.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I mean the delineation between those things was tough at
a certain point in our lives. And you just nailed
it on the head when you said what is AOL for?
I mean, realistically, they had a big struggle when they
went from being the way you got to the Internet
to oh wait, I don't really need this for the Internet, so.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yes, But at the same time in the book, I
give them a ton of credit for they were the
training wheels for the Internet, which was a pejorative at
the time, but someone needed to do that. Someone needed
to train Americans how to live their lives online. And
we really we have to give aol and Steve Case
and all those guys a lot of credit for that.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Absolutely, in the book, you debunk some of the Internet
lore that we all grew up with, like the eBay story.
I don't want to give it away, but I love
how you did that. And one theme that I kind
of noticed throughout the book is a lot of these
founders you know nowadays, I feel like, and maybe you
could speak to this more. I feel like founders today
have more lofty visions of things, whereas back in the
(07:18):
day they just seem kind of like crazy kids that
had a good idea, but not necessarily like a crazy
business plan and all the I you know, they didn't
sort of flush it out for ten years.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know that's funny because I can even speak to
that as a three time founder myself. Anyone that's actually
been a company founder an entrepreneur knows that, yes, if
you're successful. You know, ten fifteen years later you can say, oh,
I was brilliant. I knew all along that this was no.
The reality is is a lot of it is, and
especially in this era when no one knew it was
going to work, it was a lot of it was
(07:49):
throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck. And
I was very yeah, I purposely tried to capture some
of that because legitimately, even Jeff Bezos didn't know for
sure that people would want to buy books on the internet.
Once he proved that, he decided that people would buy
everything on the internet. But at the you know, if
you could get Bezos or anybody to be honest about
(08:11):
it and go back in time to their mindset twenty
years ago, they'd have to admit that they didn't necessarily
know what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Do you have very specific numbers, dates, times, places? Was
that all tough to kind of dig up?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, you know what the hardest part is is we
think that now you know, in the Internet era, that
all information is there and it never goes away. It's not,
you can't erase it. There was a lot of stuff
from the nineties that you know, things like like Newsweek
their archives are all gone. There's a lot of magazines
like Industry Standard from the time gone. So there was
a lot of me actually going to the library what
(08:47):
and finding old copies of these business magazines and these
technology magazines and you know, Computer World and Computer Week
and things like that to actually find that, like you said,
the actual hard numbers and dates and stuff like that,
that legitimately real library research was required.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Wow, like old school, like microfiche or is that even
I did?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I did microfiche. Oh yeah, well, but you can put
it on your little thumb drive. So actually it's much
easier now. You just go and download, you know, a
whole year's worth of periodicals and you've got it on
your thumb drive to take home and pour through.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Brian, what's your favorite story you tell inside the book?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
I would say I like telling I liked telling the
real story of Facebook. Everybody knows the movie version, which
is not inaccurate. It's just it focused on different things
other than the actual founding of a company. And I
fought hard to keep a lot of the dot com
stuff in there, the dot com bubble, because I think
there's a lot of lessons to be learned, just even
(09:45):
from a larger cultural and social thing in terms of
that was the first bubble that all of us mainstream,
main street Americans experienced, and we've had several since then,
and seemingly the only thing we can do with the
economy is inflate fulls all the time. But I wanted
to I wanted to preserve what was unique and special
(10:05):
about the dot com bubble and maybe have people take
some lessons from that.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And that perfectly segues into another theme that I noticed
in the book. Even the biggest tech companies seemingly can
be leveled by the next big idea. We saw it
happen to Netscape in the book, Yahoo, Palm, MySpace. Do
you think that can still happen today?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
One would hope so, because you know, the reality is
is that today I think it's seven or eight of
the top ten companies by market cap are all technology companies,
and even as as recently as five years ago, there
was only one. You would like to think that someone
can come out of left field and level all of them,
but the worry would be that they're creating a sort
(10:50):
of oligopoly where now you've got five trillion dollar and
half a trillion dollar companies that the next guy that
comes up to try to disrupt them, you've got you know,
five to seven huge companies that can just buy them
up and bring them in and like the borg, assimilate them.
I feel like that's the danger because like think of
(11:10):
think of Instagram. If Instagram had been allowed to stay independent,
like what would that company look like?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
How the Internet Happened by Brian McCullough available now on
Where should people buy this?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Where's the best place to buy it?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Anywhere that books are sold. There's ebook versions, so you
know Kindle and all that. There's also an audiobook version.
So basically anywhere that you that find books can be had,
you'll find this.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Book, all right. I think you'll really enjoy the book.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Also check out Brian on the Tech Meme Ride Home
podcast and the Internet History Podcast. Brian mcc on Twitter,
Thanks so much for joining me today to talk about
the book again. It's called How the Internet Happened. I
am thoroughly enjoying it. I think you will too. If
you want to learn more, you can go into the
show notes of the podcast. You can find a link there,
or just go to my website. Rich on tech dot Tv, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So much for listening. I'm Rich Dmiro. I'll talk to
you real soon.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Three
How the Internet Happened, the new book that I am
just loving. What's going on. I'm Rich Damiro. This is
Rich on Tech. Joining me today is Brian McCullough. He
is the author of a new book called How the
Internet Happened. It's available today. Man, I've been reading this
and it is just fascinating. It's basically the world that
I live through the Internet bubble, the burst, and I
(00:26):
basically get to relive all of my college and post
college years through this book.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Brian, thanks so much for joining me this morning to
talk about the book.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Oh, Rich, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So Brian.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
You also host the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast, which
is literally the first thing I listened to every day
on my way to work, which I know it's called
the ride home, but it's also for me the ride
in as well.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Is that Okay?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, And you know, like thirty
percent of the audiences overseas, so god knows what part
of their day part they listen.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Then you also host the Internet History podcast. Tell me
about that?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, Well, essentially the Internet History Podcast is how we
got the book. Because I'm actually a tech guy myself.
I founded three different web companies, and I'm used to
immediate feedback, So when I had this idea to write
this book, I wasn't used to going away in a
room and maybe three or four years later something coming
out of it. So as I was doing research and
(01:20):
getting interviews with primary sources, I'm recording them and I
just thought to myself, well why not throw them out
on the web as a podcast. And the podcast almost
took off and made me forget about doing the book,
But then it all came full circle and the books
out today.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I love the journey that you take readers on in
the book because it is how the Internet happened. And
if you remember any of these little things, these milestones
that happened over the years, like Netflix starting and Blockbusters
sort of starting their rival to that, and Netscape and Yahoo,
it really is a great ride that you bring them on.
How did you kind of come up with the way
(01:58):
you were going to do this book?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Well, I mean, in a way, the title could almost
be how the Internet happened to us. You know, there
have been other well done history books going back to
the arpaet and how the Internet itself, you know, was
came out of the military and academia and things like that.
But what I was interested in is, you know, what
has been more disruptive is the word that everyone likes
to use, but what's been the biggest revolution in all
(02:23):
of our daily lives? So I wanted to talk about
the era when the Internet started happening to us. And
you know, even things like you know, my wife is like, oh,
tell talk about Excite. Excite was where I got my
first email address, or you know, people always say, tell
us about GeoCities or Napster, and people have these really
formative personal connections to these companies and this technology. And
(02:49):
even though you know there's individual books about all these
different companies, I thought no one had put it all
together in one sort of narrative. And even though it
is essentially just the A led to b Let to
see you, I think you can see how it infiltrated
basically all of modern life.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
And what I love about the story that you tell
is two things. Number One, you did this in a
very consumer friendly way where anyone can understand what happened
and kind of see like what the founders were thinking
and what the kind of results of their actions were
to the average person like me, and you like.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
You said, Yeah, I was always thinking of my dad,
keeping my dad in mind. You know, here's how you
got a supercomputer in your pocket. But then also, you know,
I talked to a lot of kids in air quotes,
people entering the tech industry today, twenty four, twenty five,
twenty six years old. And you know, if you're twenty six,
you maybe never heard a modem dial up sound. You know,
(03:45):
a Facebook is almost fifteen years old, so people might
not remember there was a MySpace before Facebook and things
like that. That's that's what I wanted to try to capture.
The industry itself is not good about its own history
because everybody's always focused on what's next, what's next, the new,
the next version in the next gadget, that sort of thing.
But there's a lot of valuable lessons in looking back
as at like I said, at the A led to
(04:06):
B led to C even to even give you a
hint about what might be coming next.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It all starts with Netscape, right, And I remember downloading Netscape,
and then of course we all switched to Firefox, and
then of course we all switched to Chrome. So tell
me about how Netscape kind of the word you use,
they let the riff raff in right.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yes, because you know he he denies it. But Tim
berners Lee, who invented the Worldwide Web, originally really conceived
of it as an academic sort of tool. And the
kids at the University of Illinois, among them Mark Andresen,
they really conceived of it as this kind of sexy,
sort of new kind of medium that could have newspapers
(04:50):
and movies and you know, videos and things. So essentially
the thing that the Netscape browser did, it was sort
of a chicken and an egg. It was a lot
of people's first introduction to the web, and so they
would get on a Netscape browser, try the web for
the first time, see all this cool stuff that was
suddenly popping up, and then they themselves wanted to go
(05:12):
off and create some of this cool stuff. So Netscape
both made the Web mainstream and was mainstreamed by the
Web being mainstream.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And I'll never forget.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
And I, like I said, Brian, when you're when I'm
reading this book, I felt like you were inside my
brain because everything in this book sort of happened to
me as I went along. But I'll never forget. I
had AOL and I remember going to this AOL sort
of portal that said the world Wide Web is coming soon.
Because AOL was not the Web, right, but they had
this little section of AOL that like you can kind
(05:43):
of access the Web through before they had a browser
built in. It was really crazy, and you talk about
that in the book, which I thought was really cool.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, and this is another thing that, like people that
listened to the Internet History podcast, when I've done stories
or Sorry episodes on things like AOL, I would get
these tweets and emails saying thank you, I didn't actually
understand what AOL actually did, Like, if there's the Web,
why does AOL need to be there?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And I get it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, Again, if you're twenty six and the internet's just
always been around in the ether, things like an ISP
and a dial up modem and things like that, you
didn't understand what it was for.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I mean the delineation between those things was tough at
a certain point in our lives. And you just nailed
it on the head when you said what is AOL for?
I mean, realistically, they had a big struggle when they
went from being the way you got to the Internet
to oh wait, I don't really need this for the Internet, so.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yes, But at the same time in the book, I
give them a ton of credit for they were the
training wheels for the Internet, which was a pejorative at
the time, but someone needed to do that. Someone needed
to train Americans how to live their lives online. And
we really we have to give aol and Steve Case
and all those guys a lot of credit for that.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Absolutely, in the book, you debunk some of the Internet
lore that we all grew up with, like the eBay story.
I don't want to give it away, but I love
how you did that. And one theme that I kind
of noticed throughout the book is a lot of these
founders you know nowadays, I feel like, and maybe you
could speak to this more. I feel like founders today
have more lofty visions of things, whereas back in the
(07:18):
day they just seem kind of like crazy kids that
had a good idea, but not necessarily like a crazy
business plan and all the I you know, they didn't
sort of flush it out for ten years.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know that's funny because I can even speak to
that as a three time founder myself. Anyone that's actually
been a company founder an entrepreneur knows that, yes, if
you're successful. You know, ten fifteen years later you can say, oh,
I was brilliant. I knew all along that this was no.
The reality is is a lot of it is, and
especially in this era when no one knew it was
going to work, it was a lot of it was
(07:49):
throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck. And
I was very yeah, I purposely tried to capture some
of that because legitimately, even Jeff Bezos didn't know for
sure that people would want to buy books on the internet.
Once he proved that, he decided that people would buy
everything on the internet. But at the you know, if
you could get Bezos or anybody to be honest about
(08:11):
it and go back in time to their mindset twenty
years ago, they'd have to admit that they didn't necessarily
know what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Do you have very specific numbers, dates, times, places? Was
that all tough to kind of dig up?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, you know what the hardest part is is we
think that now you know, in the Internet era, that
all information is there and it never goes away. It's not,
you can't erase it. There was a lot of stuff
from the nineties that you know, things like like Newsweek
their archives are all gone. There's a lot of magazines
like Industry Standard from the time gone. So there was
a lot of me actually going to the library what
(08:47):
and finding old copies of these business magazines and these
technology magazines and you know, Computer World and Computer Week
and things like that to actually find that, like you said,
the actual hard numbers and dates and stuff like that,
that legitimately real library research was required.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Wow, like old school, like microfiche or is that even
I did?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I did microfiche. Oh yeah, well, but you can put
it on your little thumb drive. So actually it's much
easier now. You just go and download, you know, a
whole year's worth of periodicals and you've got it on
your thumb drive to take home and pour through.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Brian, what's your favorite story you tell inside the book?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
I would say I like telling I liked telling the
real story of Facebook. Everybody knows the movie version, which
is not inaccurate. It's just it focused on different things
other than the actual founding of a company. And I
fought hard to keep a lot of the dot com
stuff in there, the dot com bubble, because I think
there's a lot of lessons to be learned, just even
(09:45):
from a larger cultural and social thing in terms of
that was the first bubble that all of us mainstream,
main street Americans experienced, and we've had several since then,
and seemingly the only thing we can do with the
economy is inflate fulls all the time. But I wanted
to I wanted to preserve what was unique and special
(10:05):
about the dot com bubble and maybe have people take
some lessons from that.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And that perfectly segues into another theme that I noticed
in the book. Even the biggest tech companies seemingly can
be leveled by the next big idea. We saw it
happen to Netscape in the book, Yahoo, Palm, MySpace. Do
you think that can still happen today?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
One would hope so, because you know, the reality is
is that today I think it's seven or eight of
the top ten companies by market cap are all technology companies,
and even as as recently as five years ago, there
was only one. You would like to think that someone
can come out of left field and level all of them,
but the worry would be that they're creating a sort
(10:50):
of oligopoly where now you've got five trillion dollar and
half a trillion dollar companies that the next guy that
comes up to try to disrupt them, you've got you know,
five to seven huge companies that can just buy them
up and bring them in and like the borg, assimilate them.
I feel like that's the danger because like think of
(11:10):
think of Instagram. If Instagram had been allowed to stay independent,
like what would that company look like?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
How the Internet Happened by Brian McCullough available now on
Where should people buy this?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Where's the best place to buy it?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Anywhere that books are sold. There's ebook versions, so you
know Kindle and all that. There's also an audiobook version.
So basically anywhere that you that find books can be had,
you'll find this.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Book, all right. I think you'll really enjoy the book.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Also check out Brian on the Tech Meme Ride Home
podcast and the Internet History Podcast. Brian mcc on Twitter,
Thanks so much for joining me today to talk about
the book again. It's called How the Internet Happened. I
am thoroughly enjoying it. I think you will too. If
you want to learn more, you can go into the
show notes of the podcast. You can find a link there,
or just go to my website. Rich on tech dot Tv, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So much for listening. I'm Rich Dmiro. I'll talk to
you real soon.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Three
Host
Rich DeMuro
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com