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Episode Transcript
ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati's sports station.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I don't know that a day or at least a
week goes by without sports and the law intersecting. The
Stefan Diggs story, which is not good, would be an
example of that. We'll maybe spend some time on that
next week. And so I've wanted for a while. I've
wanted somebody on our show who could talk about sports
(00:27):
and the law and not necessarily an athlete getting in trouble.
But like with what's happening in college sports right now,
the courts are often involved, and when they're not, they
probably will be. And so we have can I say
we've we've gotten on retainer to use the proper term.
Stuart Penrose from the Manilo Law Group, it's you're my
new legal guy.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm glad, glad to be Thanks for having me on
the show, MO, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You're gonna end up answering a lot of really dumb
questions from me.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I answer dumb questions every day, both personally and professionally.
I've answered dumb question on the radio with Kid Chris
for years. That's not new to me.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Uh, he's better at asking dumb questions yes, he is.
All right, So so there's this is awesome and uh,
and we're gonna have you every week. There's there's always
stuff floating around as it relates to sports and the law.
And sometimes it's like a real serious legal issue. Sometimes
it's you know, something in the courts that's kind of
complex and beyond the realm of uh my understanding. Uh,
(01:24):
and sometimes we'll have some fun stuff. So it's gonna
be a mixed bag. But I'm excited to do this.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
It's awesome to have you as am. I very excited.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Uh let's start with this. So college sports are very
much in a weird place right. We have unprecedented challenges
in college sports as it relates to athlete compensation, the
transfer portal, and now we have players getting eligibility even
though they've already been drafted by an NBA team. And
(01:52):
at the heart of all this, it feels like the
NCAA is basically saying, well, we're gonna let this guy
be eligible because if we end up getting taken the court,
we're gonna lose. The n cuaa's track record in court
is not good.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
The crux of it is they've been losing anti trust
lawsuits started with the the ed O Bannon case. He's
put in a video game with his likeness and says, hey,
this isn't right, ensues over it, and he wins, and
you know that starts a string of lawsuits that challenge
the n C double a on antitrust laws. You had,
you know, another case just a few years ago, the
(02:25):
ash In case that basically opened nil completely supreme you know,
unanimous Supreme Court decision says that you can't stop these
players from earning money from their name, image and likeness,
that it violates anti trust laws to to do that
and stop them from having open, uh, you know, markets
for their compensation.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So we hear the term anti trust, which is not
a sports term. It's a sure a legal term, but
it's used all the time as it relates to sports.
This is a stupid question. What what are anti trust
laws about markets?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
About having free markets, the ability to uh to earn
a living, the ability to have free markets determine prices
of goods of services.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
It's about free markets.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Baseball's gotten anti trust exemptions, Professional sports leagues have gotten
anti trust exemptions. Good college athletics get anti trust exemptions.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
There are some limits to it.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You're not going to see unlimited eligibility for instance. There
there are certain limits to where it can go with it.
But the n C double A, they had an old
model of have heart, you know, very strict rules, focus
on preserving amateurism and then enforcing their rules, and by
losing all these anti trust cases, they've had to completely
switch to a new model, which is, don't stop losing
(03:41):
precedent setting lawsuits. Be more adaptable, and that's what you're seeing.
You're seeing the NC double A be a lot more
adaptable on eligibility, certainly on NIL, which you know, we're
in the wild West, and I mean that's a completely
another topic for you for a different day. You know,
pros and cons with that. There's some sort of very
unhealthy things with NIL. But they've had to adapt to
(04:04):
it to a new model to reserve to preserve some
relevancy and ensures that their schools don't leave.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, so we have another case that's going to go
through the courts. A guess we're Diego Pavia, the Vanderbilt
quarterback Heisman finalist, right, is suing because he wants to
keep playing college football. Right, and there's a lot of
athletes watching how this may unfold. Who then would go, Okay, well,
I want to come back and play college football, college basketball,
whatever it is. Given the NCAA's track record, it would
(04:33):
feel like he is. His legal maneuvering is going to
be successful, you would.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Think, I mean, essentially, what he's challenging is he didn't
want his junior college years, which aren't n C double A,
to count towards.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
His NCUBAA eligibility.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
But he didn't play this year because the NCUBA allowed
him to play, or that he got a waiver. He
played because of judge granted an injunction preventing the nc
Double A from enforcing their denial of his eligibility for
this year. N C DOUBLEA didn't, you know, fight hard
back on it. They see the writing on the wall
and they don't want to set bad precedent to you know,
further degrade their brand and you know, lose more teeth
(05:06):
than they've already lost. But yes, I mean, he's my
understands that he's going to the NFL. But yes, all
the other athletes are gonna watch what happens in this
lawsuit that he's not dropping and there have to believe
twelve other athletes in this lawsuit as well too. But
that's going to set a lot of precedent that will
affect a lot of JUCO players going forward.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I hear people say, well, the NCAA is so bad
at this because their basic business model is illegal. What
would a lawyer say about that.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's it's not completely black and white.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
They are trying how they do it is legal, but
they are trying to adapt to stay that way, and
they are getting challenged left and right. So it is legal,
but certain aspects of it are being challenged, particularly with eligibility,
with different types of anti trust, with compensation models.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
It is legal, but it's being parts of it are
being challenged.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
We basically in college sports, we you know, we have
no rules, right, and so the Wild West now it
is the NFL has rules, right. The NFL has rules
that are collectively bargained and agreed upon.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Where the players Association says, uh, well, here's what we want.
The NFL says, here what the owners want, and then
they agree to a collective bargaining agreement. It lasts, however,
many years. It's how it works in the NBA. It's
it works in Major League Baseball. We don't have that
in college sports. In the absence of collective of collective bargaining,
(06:30):
can the nc double A legally start to create and
in force its own set of rules to rain everything in?
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Good luck?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Right?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Good luck? It's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Can't happen.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Everything's getting challenged. And let's be honest, there are powers
bigger than them.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Right now.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
The conferences are more powerful double A. The TV TV
is more powerful, you know, Fox, ABC and CBS. They
control the money of college football, along with the Big
ten SEC and to some extent, the Big twelve and
the others. The money dictates the power, and the n
C Double A has lost a grasp of that completely.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean it is you know, people talk about it
like it's some governing body. The NCAA is the collection
of schools.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
It's technically a nonprofit r.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So if the collection of schools got together and said, look,
he're the rules. You have four years to you have
five years to play for, which is what it used
to be five years to play for. You could transfer
once with that penalty. We're gonna put a hard cap
and what everybody can make in terms of revenue sharing,
and these are the rules. They would be completely unenforceable,
is what you're telling me.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
In a lot of ways. Yes, I mean there are
some things that can be enforced.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You can't, you know, for instance, beyond your third degree,
be on your doctrine and being your ninth year. There's
gonna be limits to it. There are still some limits
to it. You're not gonna have a thirty six year
old quarterback in college football. There are still some things
that just defy logic and reasoning that that would violate
anti trust. On the other end, given that this is
(08:00):
still some level of amateurism, you know, quote unquote whatever's
left of that, there's still technically students and in a
lot of ways, that's how they get around being employees
and having contracts and being subject to employment law, insurance
and all of that.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
How do you collectively bargain with a group of people
that's not a union.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Well, some of those some of the schools are trying
to union I some of the players are trying to
union ize. So that's there's just a lot of precedents
that hasn't been set with some of this. But it's
I don't see how you could possibly do it when
there's not a set organization like the NFL, like any
pro league. It's too fragmented in college football, in college
sports in general.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Rather, let me ask you about the Ohio University the
ex head coach at Ohio University, Brian Smith. So, in
the wake of the Sharon Moore thing, and I know
you're a Michigan guy, don't get me started, right, this
was sort of like Sharon Moore light right, Yes, where
you had the coach Bryan Smith was terminated for a cause.
And thankfully we're not talking about somebody who went on
(09:02):
to do something that he's now you know, under you know,
felony indictment for. But he loses his job for a
cause and the school says, well, you were having an
extra marital affair with a student at Ohio University student. So,
first of all, because I think there's a lot of
folks that know what explain make the distinction between firing
(09:23):
with cause and without.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Well, if you fire him with cause, he's not going
to get any of his buyout. Furthermore, you kind of
become unhireable, at least for a period of time. If
if you've got a with cause firing, that is a
big stain on your record.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
With cause basically means you did something that compelled them
to fire.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
In breach of your contract and compelled you to fire
you and you know, brought some disrepute to the university.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Without cause, you get your buyout.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
If you're just fired for performance, the team's not performing
well enough, you get your buyout. Now he has counsel here,
he's disputing the allegations and the context of it. You
know my understanding for you know, he says that he
was in the middle of a divorce and then there
was no affair. And I'm not sure the age of
the student. I read somewhere that she was in her forties.
I don't know if that's true or not. But and
(10:08):
you said there weren't going to be thirty six year
old quarterbacks, right right. But he disputes, you know, the
nuances of what he's being alleged by the university. These
cases are almost certain in a settlement of some sort. Yeah,
he'll get some sort of settlement.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Of his buyout.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
He's going to want to push for it to be
without cause. Firing that's going to be the big win
for him.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So the school says, well, you were having an affair
with the student, and he says, well, you don't have
a rule against having an affair with the student.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
First of all, I think there wasn't a rule against it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Is there no rule against having a sexual relationship with
the student?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Sure, I'm sure that there is some morality clause in
his contract, and some clause that if he brings some
disrepute or you know, bad press to the university, and
I can see how it can be construed with that.
My understanding is that he was living at the university
hotel at the time until he could find, you know,
a permanent home out there, and he was seen with
her with some of the players families. There is what
(11:06):
I read, So I can see how it can be
argued a certain way. But there's enough gray area here
that the minds are going to meet in the middle somewhere.
Neither side wants this drug got into litigation where you know,
bad facts on both sides are coming out. People want
to move on and there'll be some sort of settlement.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I would think if this guy wants to continue coaching
at any level, that it would make sense for him
to not have some of the senior details of his
life be spilled out into the public.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Absolutely in same thing for Ohio University. You don't want
that either, you know, saying that this happened under our watch.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah. They also said he had booze in his office.
And if every coach that I know who's had booze
in their office, God fired, for there would be no coaches.
We wouldn't have coaches to complain about college athletics.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
How about lawyers with booze in their office?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Does that happen?
Speaker 1 (11:52):
No?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
No, yes, radio executives not my office. Off not my office.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Well we can change that, all right. You're gonna join
me every Tuesday, every Tuesday, looking forward to it. It's
gonna be awesome. Were my questions? These were dumb questions,
I will admit this.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
No, they were great questions. They were fantastic questions.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Okay, very good.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Hopefully I had decent answers. Very all right.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I learned a lot. Well, thank you very much, Minila
Law Group, Stuart Penrose. We'll see you next Tuesday. Man,
thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Mo. It is hutswelve away from five o'clock. We'd Oakley
Greens on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Station Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty traffic.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
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