December 9, 2025 • 37 mins
Paul Dehner Jr. of The Athletic and The Growler Podcast joined us to discuss another Bengals loss and all the fallout from it.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Ravens fly into Cincinnati for a battle with our Bengals.
Will sach Taylor's Orange and Black bust Baltimore in the
beak and whip up a win. Find out when you
get the call live from Dan Horde and Dave lamp.
The game kicks off at one pm, with coverage starting
at nine am. Sunday. Streams for free on the new
and improved iHeart Radio app or ESPN fifteen thirty, the
(00:23):
official home of the Cincinnati Bengals.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's up? It's three oh six. This is ESPN fifteen
thirty on Moolegas. Thank you for listening today. Hopefully you're
having an awesome Tuesday. We are posting up at Oakley Greens.
This is what I love about Oakley Greens this time
of year. It's festive. It's festive. You mean, there's holiday lights,
there's a Christmas tree made of beer kegs. We've got
(00:48):
Shibaka and Darth Vader holding a various Christmas paraphernalia. It's
but it's not in your face festive.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's not like walking into a Chris Kindle market. No, no, no,
it's it's but if you're like, you know what I
don't want it to be that festive cool, then you're
gonna enjoy coming to Oakley Greens. By the way, right now,
if you buy one hundred dollars worth of Oakley Greens
gift cards, you'll get twenty five free, so you can't
beat that. Take advantage of that. It's an awesome place
(01:16):
to watch. Gee, we've got the college football playoff coming up.
You've got the Bengals. Bengals continuing in their pursuit of
an AFC North Championship, which the athletic tells me they
have a three percent chance of winning. You could watch
the game on Sunday. College college basketball is going great
in my life. So if you want to watch the
Bearcats play Georgia, maybe the Bulldogs have a player that'll
(01:39):
go off and score more than twenty points, and perhaps
they'll double team him. You could see if that happens
here at Oakley Greens. All sorts of stuff that you
can hang out here and watch. We love it. There
are gracious hosts. Lauren the bartender always takes great care
of us, and we love coming to this establishment. We're
out of the way early today at five thirty because
the UK basketball, So keep that mind. Our friend Paul
(02:01):
Danner Junior is here from the Athletic in the Grolar podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
How's it going it correct? Yeah, it's going great.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
It sounds like, uh, you know, I think everybody's in
a very similar place with THEIRS CINCINNTI sports teams right now.
So we can you know, go ahead and keep that
tone rolling. You want to talk about Kyle Swarber, why not?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Hey, how close? Were they not? Close? No?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
You know it was the uh you know, does he
want to come back here and play at home? There
is a way to assure that that happened. Yeah, do
you know what that is?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You pay the man.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
You just you pay him.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
You pay more than anybody else is willing to because
it matters to you, because he'd be a perfect fit
for you if if that was the way that it was.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, I am not.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I'm genuinely interested in how serious the pursuit was.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I will look at this. I would admit.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I will admit, like late last week, I'm like, all right,
maybe they pull this off. Maybe they pulled it. Maybe
they're like, you know what, this is our shot. We're
gonna like change our brand by financially coming to the party.
And making this work. Like I kind of to convince
myself late last week. I don't know why.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Yeah, no, I mean it's it certainly doesn't fit any
of the rest of the strategy that they're going with
right now at this point at all. But I don't know, dude,
at what point do we say, oh, we give credit
for pursuit. I don't give much credit for pursuit. You
(03:25):
don't get credit for pursuit anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
You don't get credit for pursuit.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I don't know what happened to the microphone there, but no, no,
this is the bottom line business. And look what I
would say to the Castellini say, is in your decades
of running businesses, do you give credit for people who
try or to give credit for results. And that's how
I view this, that they get no credit for And
I'm sure there are people willing to give it to them.
Well they you know, they were kind of they were there, Like, no,
(03:50):
they weren't. There's no press conference there. You either got
to the number or you didn't get to the number.
There's either a press conference where Kyle Schwarber tries on
a jersey and then has your logo on it, or
there isn't and there's not, so that's all that matters.
This is results oriented.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
And it you may be able to find a better
way to make it work with the other plan, the
alternative to you know what that would have been, you know,
because there would be holes left if you were gonna
give this money and you're gonna have to trade away
Brady Singer or the other things that you would have
to do, and it would leave you short and you'd
have have bullpen depth issues or whatever. Maybe maybe there's
(04:26):
there's ways that this you gotta go win doing whatever.
But if you don't win and it's because you didn't
hit enough home runs or didn't have enough offense, which
has been a familiar theme around here, it's hard not
to look back and say, Ah, there was the investment
right there in front of you, the perfect fit, the
perfect guy, and just sit here and hit bombs for
the next five years and try to help you win
te And like.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
My question all along has been, this is not likely
to happen. So what's plan B. Like if you're pinning
your hopes on Kyle Schwerber's plan A, Okay, that doesn't
plant pan out. Can't get my words right? If that
doesn't pan out. Plan B to solve declaring issue as
it relates to lack of pop is what what's gonna cost?
(05:09):
Is it gonna involve a trade? Is it gonna involve
a free agent who's a little under the radar. Is
it gonna involve putting together an offense that doesn't have
that guy but still making it better this offseason? Like
what's if it wasn't Kyle Schwarber? What's planned B? Was
my question in October. It's my question here in mid December.
And I'm sure there are I'm sure there are answers.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I mean, he's not the only guy out there, right
And and you know the idea of giving that kind
of money if you are on a limited budget and
it takes away from somewhere else, there's a diminishing return
element to that because you're taking away from another area. Now,
maybe you can add and not have to take away,
and you can build his strength whatever. I don't know
(05:52):
enough about what that the second, third, and fourth tier
looks like.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
But it needs to be something.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
It can't just be bet on guys getting better because
we've we've kind of been down and that's not a
disbelief in those guys you just us that can be a.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Part of it, but that that can be a part
of it. I have a feeling that Plan B is
the next version of Austin Hayes.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah. Probably.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I mean that's that's what That's what these That's what
it looks like in this model, right in the the
model of the teams that are the lower market teams
that are trying to find their way to moneyball the system,
so to speak, and and win more with less.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That's what it has to look like.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Let's talk about what does Sunday look like in Orchard Park.
That game on Sunday encapsulated my biggest gripe about this
team that Joe Burrow has to be perfect. Yeah, and
in the absence of perfection, they have no chance. And
Joe Burrow wasn't perfect. And look man the first to
admit his postgame demeanor told you everything you need to know.
(06:59):
He throws a pick six that you can't throw. He
knows that. Unfortunately it happened. They're not good enough to
overcome that. That is my single biggest gripe about the
Cincinnati Bengals, That it's built on the quarterback being superhuman,
which by the way for three plus quarters. He was like,
for three plus quarters, he was awesome, dude, Like, and
(07:20):
you talked about this on the Growlery like that was
a fun quarterback duel Alan Burrow in the snow high Stakes,
like late in the season, it was awesome. It's great drama,
great theater. Joe Burrow was terrific. The moment he stopped
the Bengals, chances of winning that game went away.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, you can't. You can't make mistakes. You can't only
score thirty four. Yeah, thirty four, just thirty four.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
You can't. You can't do that. And that's.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's the it's the frustrating element, and it's it's why
we use terms like waste seasons and things like that,
because nobody, just nobody else has asked to do this.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
And I mean that, like.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
No one else is asked to go out here and
if we could be could be forty this week, Joe, Like,
that's not you know, Josh Allen, we saw him do
superhuman things on Sunday and he has done them plenty
in his career. He's not consistently asked to go get forty.
They have a bad defense too, right, But it's it's
not It's not like that, and I mean the numbers,
(08:24):
you know, I tweeted it after the game, but like,
you can't run from this. It's the defining stat of
the last two years. When they score thirty three or
more their four and seven and the rest of the
NFL is one hundred and thirty six.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Ten and two.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
You can't lose these games. That is that is six
seven wins over the last two years. That because you
were just beyond comprehension bad on defense, you gave away
when your offense did more than enough to win it
for you. That's not on Joe Burrow. He wasn't perfect.
He was more than good enough to beat a playoff
(09:02):
team on Sunday. And that's the shame of it, because
any one of those plays, going back and doing the
rewatch of it and diving a little bit more in
the defense. We spent twenty five minutes at AL Golden yesterday,
I come away with a feeling of it where I
think it actually was very much in line with what
(09:23):
they have been over the last month, incrementally getting a
little bit better, only because we were previously only comparing
them to teams from the twenties and the thirties, but
still incrementally getting better. There's a goal line stand here,
there's a day of turnovers here, there's a couple of plays.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
What you're seeing Mike Paul coming from Miles Murthy and.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
DJ Turner and and you're they're not missing as many
tackles right like, you're seeing some of it incremental growth.
And I think you saw it in this game. They
were getting to the advantageous situations. They forced four fourth downs,
they got them to third and fifteen at the end.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
They all of these things.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
They weren't teams were not sniffing third down and long
earlier in the season. They weren't putting teams, especially good
offenses like the Bills, in to fourth downs that they
have to choose to go for. I think you can
see that. But the bottom line is our question going
into it was can they make the play? Can they
(10:25):
take the next step? Can they get the stop in
the fourth quarter? Can they make that one play that
changes the course of the game.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And the answer was no, they still can't do it. There.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Maybe they're better than they were, maybe it is coming
along a little bit, but by week fourteen, like it's
just got to start to get there, and it just
hasn't to this point, and that's unfortunate. It doesn't mean
that there isn't still something to the fact that it
has started to get a little bit better. That gives
you some hope that at least it's not going completely
(10:59):
in the opposite direction, which is hard to imagine. But
there's some of that, okay, but there's still nowhere near there.
They're still so far away, and it ends.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Up think about how you'd be feeling what we'd.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Be talking about right now if they made one of
those fourth down stops, if they get the interception from
Jordan Battle or DJ Turner or whatever. Think about that
they win this game and Burrow was what he was
just dialed in unbelievable. And they're sitting here and there
are two games back of the Steelers and they are
(11:35):
rolling in Burrow and everything. It is not just that
you're not wasting the season. This could be the most
legendary run ever. Like you're feeling it, you feeling that
is just that was a playoff team, Beals. The Bengals
played like a playoff team against another one in an
environment that felt like a playoff atmosphere. Burrow was doing
the type of stuff that you've seen him do and
(11:56):
you've imagined him being able to do in January, and
it's why you got this guy. It's why you build
towards late in the season. But you just can't make
one more play, right You can't make one more play
on defense. And that's the hard part right now, is
like they're just weren't asking for much and they still
haven't been able to.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Get it all the way there this year.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That's the lens through which I watched the game, specifically,
in the fourth quarter, they go up ten early fourth
Buffalo gets possession, and I'm going they get a stop here.
Game on. I'm like keeping an eye on Pittsburgh and
Baltimore and I'm thinking, okay, Like, if they close this
(12:38):
out number one, there is the tangible proof that the
defense is better when it needs to be. Get to
stop here, up ten points, close the deal on the road.
Then let's go fourth and goal. All right, get a
stop here, get a stop here. Gonna have to go
to length to the field, but still get a stop here.
(13:01):
Can't third and fifteen give up fourteen yards, give up
give up a fourteen yard pass, give up a fourteen
yard run, give up a fourteen yard trick play anything
but converting the first down right here, it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Is, it is.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And if you give the ball back to Joe the
way he's playing in spite of the two mistakes, my
money is on him at least making this really interesting.
Right He's gonna have something to say about how this
game ends and maybe how this season unfolds from here
moving forward if you give him the ball, so al
your guys give them the ball. Didn't. So like that's
(13:38):
the lens through which I watched the fourth quarter, thinking
like number one, if they give Joe Burrow a chance,
they're going to win. And number two, when they win,
the conversation is gonna change, and we are going to
start to talk about them them at least having a
clearer path to pulling off the impossible. And yet, as
(13:59):
they have all seen along, the defense failed and the
big moment failed failed.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Have not been able to get a stop in the
fourth quarter all year, all year. Yeah, in any spot.
I mean, and you're sitting here, you build the lead.
They played the game to essentially perfection before the Benford
pick midway through. I mean, you're up ten points on
the road. You're up ten points on the road. I
mean they they had they gotten that. They said, give
(14:27):
us the ball first, go out. We're gonna go score.
We're gonna jump out. We're gonna try to take their
running game and their crowd a little bit out of it.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
We're gonna get quickly.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
You score touchdowns on your first three drive, and you get.
You get the luck, they got a little bit. They
got the break with the slip, they get the red
zone thing. Then you get you eventually get the fumble
into the end zone by James Cook. You get a
couple of breaks even that fall your way to give
you some stops that maybe you didn't totally deserve. And
still with all of that, you're sitting there in that
(14:56):
perfect spot and you can't just finish a game. It
goes back to the Bears, it goes back to the Jets.
It goes back to all of these games where it's
been like, just get one single fourth quarter stop and
it can be done. They cannot close out anything. And
you know you mentioned the run by Allen, not third
and fifteen, but the forty yarder.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
You have an.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Untouched head dresher, you have Cedric Johnson, and you bring
the blitz to get a free hitter like this is
what it's about. Now, you dial it up and here
it is and you can't even get your.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Hand on it.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
You don't even take a tight enough angle to the
quarterback to get a hand in them. Well yeah, well,
when you're bringing blitzes and your free hitter doesn't even
touch a guy, guess what When it's Josh Allen, it's
it's gone. And on third and fifteen, when you apparently
have you know, players that won Geno Stone. I knew
(15:51):
you had to be enjoying that moment when it was
Josh Allen versus Geno Stone. Don't space one on one
for your season. You knew that was coming. I told you, Yeah,
I told you what I said. As the play is unfolding, heget.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Here we go. This is the one.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
I mean, just imagine the stunning surprise if you would
have actually seen him make that tackle. But to me, though,
it's more it's it's Demetrious Night on the sideline, face
guarding like he's in a box and one defense against
a halfback, completely unaware that behind him, directly behind him
(16:27):
as a linebacker on the team, Josh Allen is running
to end your season. He's twelve yards downfield. Night hasn't
even turned around yet. Still is there not even a
roar of the crowd? Are you here to make you wonder?
Be curious what's happening behind you? I mean that's the
stuff like this is it's and it's you know, you're
fourth and three at the goal line, right, just get
(16:48):
it here at the end of the game that you
know they're going for the juggular, here's your chance to
have your goal line stand to crack back. And what
happens some dude just decides to just go out to
the flat and leave the tight end standing there all
by himself, right in front of Josh Allen.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And you have that.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
You go through all of those fourth downs, any one
of these where it's like Joseph Osai on a fourth
down decides to try to do a spin move and
he just falls to the ground so Dion Dpkins can
stand on top of him and clear Josh Allen to
just buy two seconds to go out that direction, and
you just Miles Murphy taking an inside path and they
can't cover it on the outside. Like you know, there's
(17:28):
a lot of tip your hat to Josh Allen stuff.
But there's also just awareness on the field from anyone.
But it's stuff bad players do. They can't find a
way to make a play in the big moment, they
can't see what's going on, and they just consistently get
taken advantage of. And that's the story of this team
because it was built on poor players.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Right now, here's.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
How demented I am in the fourth quarter, up ten,
even up three with the ball, I was gonna close
this out and we have an AFC North race and
the Bengals are coming home to play the Ravens. Yeah,
and the ruler of the jungle will be Kyle Schwarber.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
This is the moment. This is what.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
This is where my headspace was on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Oh, it could have been perfect, it could have been.
This is what this is what this is what it
would have been.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
This is when in the dream Cincinnati sports world, this
is how it all comes together.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's in the fourth quarter. That's where my headspace, that's
where I am thinking.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
And I honestly, as we as we were sitting there
in the in the third fourth quarter, I thought, after
that unbelievable drive that ended in the Kasiki touchdown, Yes,
the winning the game.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I did too. How about this?
Speaker 4 (18:47):
They came into Buffalo and did it again. They came out,
they executed their game plan and perfection. They just what
an unbelievable drive. That the type of drive you put
a game away with. Probably having watched this team for
for however long, should have known better. But it felt
that way, like it felt as much as it's ever
felt with this team this year, that they were in
(19:09):
complete control in a big moment. It felt that way
like Burrow had seized that for that with that drive,
it was like, Oh, that's the.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
One that we're gonna look back on.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
When Evan McPherson's pat went through the uprights, I went
to FanDuel dot com and their AFC North title odds
dropped to plus four hundred. Yeah, as low as they've
been probably since after Week two. Plus four hundred went
back up not soon thereafter. All Right, we're way late
twenty five after three o'clock. Paul Danner Junior latest Growler
(19:40):
podcast is out. Make sure you catch that and read
them at the Athletic dot com where at Oakley Greens.
Paul's here till four, We're here till five thirty on
ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Station Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
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Expect more at UCHealth dot com. A new accident in
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Also still got that accident on Gilbert Avenue at Elsinore Place.
(20:17):
Right now, traffic is solo on eastbound two seventy five
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I'm at Ezelek with traffic this.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Week away from four o'clock, we're at Oakley Greens. This
is ESPN fifteen thirty. If you have not been to
Oakley Greens, check it out. By the way, the parking
is free, it's on site. TV situation is awesome. The
staff here is terrific. We love coming out here every
single Tuesday. Paul and I have more to discuss. Paul
Danner Junior from The Athletic and the Growler podcast including
(20:54):
y T. Higgins, was in the game on Sunday. Even
if he was awesome when he was in the game
on Sunday, We'll get to that. I'm back on ESPN
fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports Station.
Speaker 7 (21:04):
Not just talk, This is sports with Soul, sweat and swagger.
Tony Pike, Sincy three sixty Tomorrow at twelve noon on
ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.
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(21:41):
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Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's our service of Kelsey Chevrolet, home of lifetime powertrain
protection and guaranteed credit approval. From there to yours for life,
Kelsey chev dot com. Kyle Schwarber is not going to
play for the Reds at least not in twenty twenty
six or twenty twenty seven or twenty twenty eight or
twenty twenty nine or two thousand and thirty unless the
Phillies trade into the Reds. I say that because he
(22:15):
has re signed with the Phills five years, one hundred
and fifty million dollars for the Middletown native. Ken Rosenthal
reports the Reds offer was five for one to twenty five.
We'll see what plann b is. Any Bengals news today,
any anything, Yes, there was a big Newsy day.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
They got the news out of the way yesterday. Yeah,
nothing yet today. College basketball tonight on ESPN fifteen thirty.
It's Kentucky battling North Carolina Central. Tip off at seven
pregame at five thirty. Also tonight, Ohio State takes on Illinois,
and Indiana Square is off against penn State. Hockey Tonight
the Blue Jackets skate on the road against Carolina Paul
(22:49):
Danner juniors. Here from the athletic We uh, We've hit
on a lot of things in a short amount of time,
and I have so much more. Yeah, the news I
guess will end up being if someone ends up claiming
Jermaine Burton, which is I guess interesting to see if
anybody thinks that that's worth a fire for them.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I don't really have a Jermaine Burton question. Yeah, you know,
when it was important he was suspended, I thought like
the news would have been Jermaine Burton's gonna play.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
So this this just sort of felt like either they
moved on at the end of this year, or they
moved on at some point during the season and they have.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah, it's it felt like, oh, Okay, finally, you know, I
mean that was kind of the the I mean, they
had more patients than I would have in terms of
how long the charades sort of went on this year.
But they, yeah, finally finally decided that obviously this is uh,
the trust is.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Never going to come back between organization and player. Explain
this to me.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
T Higgins was in concussion protocol was last week. Yeah, right,
was working out of it.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
It did work out.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It did work out of it. Plays in the game
on Sunday, Yes, hits his head on the turf. Is
pointing to his head like, hey, hit my head on
the turf. His head hits the turf again in the game.
As he's playing the game and playing very well, it
looks like he's dealing with some effect. There's something there,
something that would make you think maybe T is not
(24:15):
all right, But they never take him out of the game,
and then yesterday we find out he's back in concussion protocol.
Can you make that make sense?
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah, here's the thing, specifically, when it comes to concussions,
they're absolutely, unequivocally have to be guardrails in place to
make it so there is no gray area with this,
and there are, so the coaches and everybody else essentially
(24:45):
has to be taken out of the equation, and they do.
That's why the independent neurologists exists. That's why the guy
with the red hat takes you into the blue tent
and they give you the baseline test to test for
concussions when they take you in there. If you pass that,
that's all anyone can go off of. In the heat
of the game that's happening out there. He passes it, Okay,
(25:09):
he's okay. Then it happens again, take him in there again.
They do it again. In terms of it's it's the
spotter there's no saying that he definitely has it. Just
because a guy hits said it doesn't assign me he
has it. Says he's good, clears him to go back
into the game, whether whether it's making a decision I'm
(25:29):
deciding to keep you out or making decisions like get
back in there, those thoughts, those actions are taken away
from the staff, right and forget, And that's the way
that it should be. Yeah, so I don't I guess
I don't understand. I get what it looks like.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, it's how it looks because then you find out
he's in the protocol.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Well after the game, he reports that he was feeling
symptoms afterwards. Okay, that wasn't during the game.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Can can we then look back and say, t were
you trying to fake your way through it? Did you
successfully fake your way through it? Maybe that's part of
whatever happened with the neurologists, But to me, that falls
on the independent neurologists.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yes, no doubt, Well trust me.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
What or the entire process? My question is, I don't
know that there's I don't know. They certainly haven't come
up with a better way, and we know that they've
tried to.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
My question isn't based on a belief for an assumption
that the Bengals did something wrong. It was it just
it's how it adds up. He was in protocol. I
watched him. He looked like he was struggling by the
way he was also awesome on Sunday. Looks like he's struggling.
Then we find out, well, actually they put him in
the protocol because he reported symptoms after the game. Something
(26:46):
in that process seems broken.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Trying to diagnose concussions is broken. Yeah, and I mean
generally like it's just it is it is. This is
the NFL gray area. Okay, of they don't really they
haven't come up with any fail safe you know process here.
There's no way to do it right in that moment
(27:10):
other than you end up sometimes taking people out of
the game that don't.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Have concussions at all.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Sure because you think that it looks like they might have, right,
and the PA and the NFL sign up for this process.
They abide by this process, and all they can do
is go with it. And I also do think you know,
I mean, I've certainly never played I played it in
some intense games in grade school when I played football.
(27:36):
I don't know what it's like to be out there
and go through one of these games where you don't know,
everything hurts, you're playing through stuff. It's crazy, Like I
can't imagine. I'm not wired like these guys don't do
anything like that. But I imagine there's lots of times
where once you get out of the game, the heat
of the game and it ends, and you're sitting there
in the locker room and you're able to, you take
more stock of how do I actually feel? So that's
(28:01):
probably part of this for Tea right, and for whatever
it's worth, and very little. He was very normal talking
like there wasn't any Do we hear stories of like
after a game where Chad Johnson was just like yelling
thing you right, and like pr had to come in
and stop it. Back in the day, This wasn't It
(28:21):
was a very normal conversation. I've talked to T, been
in parts of interview scrums with T many many times
sounded nothing different than normal.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
I think this is an inherent issue in the NFL.
Is it's just a gray area, man, and then and
all they can go by is whatever this independent neurologist
says that's all they can go by. That's how he
ends up back in the game, and that's how it
ends up after the game with someone saying, I'm feeling
symptoms now, and you end up back in the in
(28:53):
the protocol, and I'd imagine this will probably be a
longer stint there, and it may it may even end
up being the last we see of t this year.
I don't know, but you know, it's I it's it's
it's just a hard thing to navigate.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Uh, finding out that Trey Hendrickson is opting for surgery,
did that feel like an inevitable end to his season
and Bengals career?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah? Yes, this was where this ended, right, Like.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
There was this idea that, okay, well maybe if they
end up in something, he could come back later in
the year.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
But I think.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
It certainly feels like the timing of that was about
on point.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
As soon as it feels like, okay, this thing's over,
we're just gonna move it on here and and and
move along, and you know, so it goes that. It's
the situation. I think it's pretty clear what dell this
is right now. It's yeah, it's it's again more gray area,
but the gray area of like how much could you pain?
(29:58):
Could you push through? Versus are you willing to versus
taking care of yourself and making sure that you're one
hundred percent ready by the time you get to free agency.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And that's where it's at.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But do you have a favorite all time Bengals Walter
Payton Man of the Year winner? It's no longer a nominee.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
It's a winner. Oh are we we are? They've changed
the verbont they've changed the verbage.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Yeah, well it should be that, yes, And And you
know here, can I tell you something I don't.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Like is teams have now in.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
The chase to win the Big Prize have had to
kind of try to find a way to work the
system where they're nominating the same guy multiple times. And
this is in no way it is no, no, no, I'm
not a digging that, but I'm just saying teams, I
think feel a lot of teams.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Are nominating the same guy multiple times.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
It does help build your case to win the Big Prize, right,
There are so many players that do great things that
deserve more recognition for them, and and I just hope
people don't. I'm not saying anything that they should that
they shouldn't have a guy like Ted Carris be nominated,
like what he's done here is unbelievable. But I just
(31:11):
want to see more people recognized deserve it for what
they do on teams. I would love to see you
like you can only be nominated once, you only be
the winner once for a team or something like that,
just because I want to see more of the good
work that so many players do put out there and
money given to their causes and things like that and
(31:33):
help build up so much of what everybody else is due.
I would love to see that. But I because I
was curious and I went to look around, Like, man,
a lot of guys are being nominated a second and
third and however many times, I'd love to see more
of these causes that guys have got behind, and more
of the work that they've done get put out there
and so you can have more people benefit, like like
(31:55):
Ted has done with all the work that he has done,
and Sam Hubbard before him, and Carlos done that before him.
There's been a bunch of them. So you don't have
a favorite of my favorite Walter Payton Man of the Year.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I mean, I think they've all been deserving.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
I mean, I think it's it's pretty I think Anthony
can Anthony muon you has to be my favorite.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, you know, he won the big I guess my
of the Bengals nominee slash winners. And again they not
that it matters, but they changed the verbiage where it
was it used to be he's you know, fill in
the blank. Sam Hubbard is the Bengals nominee for the
Walter Payton Man of the Year, and they've changed it
to Ted Carris is the Bengals Walter Payton Man of
(32:33):
the Year. He wins their award and now he's one
of thirty two. I guess, yeah, I guess, so that's fair.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I did listen to Drew Sample on the pregame show
on Sunday talk about some of the things he's doing,
and I thought, like, boy, that's there's a story there
that should be told. And nothing against the Bengals pregame show,
but like, this should not be the first time I'm
hearing of this.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And there's stuff that lots of guys do.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Yeah, and you know, and I think my cause my
cleats has been really good for that out and it
helped to get a little bit more exposure to stuff
that's out there.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, I would just I would just like.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
To see more of those stories out there and given
money through the official NFL channels. I think there's a
lot that can be done using that the power of
that particular award, or have multiple nominees and a winner
on each team where you can then have three or
four different guys causes kind of get some get some
(33:32):
love and exposure.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
There's I don't know, I just think there's stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I agree that's well put. All right, Well, thank you
my pleasure. Back next week talking about the Ravens game.
It's going to be excited. I feel like the process
to make the playoffs is so simple now that I
haven't had to go to the playoffs simulator.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
I mean, well, there's a chance there's a chance that
Joe Burrow and Patrick Mahomes both end up eliminating from
the playoffs in Week fifteen this weekend, which.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Is remarkable, isn't it crazy.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
There's there's a longer discussion that we need to have
this off season, and I think that that will have
be held a lot in NFL circles about why did
I why is this happening to not just Burrow, but
I mean so many of these big name quarterbacks struggling
even to get to the playoffs to be and then
having some of these teams built differently, uh that are there, yeah,
(34:25):
I mean that don't have that don't have the big
name quarterback that are showing up there now right now,
and just some of the roster construction I think, because
this is the first time it's felt like this in
a while where I think there's gonna be some interesting
roster construction fallout as we go through the off season.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
What if your general takeaway is Patrick Mahomes isn't that
good anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That would not be my general takeaway. I mean then
I don't know. I probably would mock myself.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I guess, well, you can mock me, because that's kind
of where I am right now.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
It's, uh, you don't think he's any good anymore.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
I don't think he's He's We're now in this Mahomes
isn't good by his standards. Thing that we've now done
in consecutive years where he is still capable of doing
awesome things, he just set the bar so damn high
early in his career that I wonder if just like
(35:18):
he's come back to the pack a little bit and
the way he's played, which is still quite good, is
the new norm where I felt like at the end
of last year, everybody was like, ah, he wasn't great
by his standards, but he's still not yet thirty. He's
gonna flip a switch. He's gonna be super human again.
And that didn't happen in Kansas City this year.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
Is it possible, and hear me out that any quarterback
need the decent offensive line in order it would be good.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Is that possible?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
It is that perhaps it just doesn't diminish the quarterback
when their offensive line is maybe really bad and they
have to try to overcome that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I haven't watched every Patrick Mahomes NAT.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I'm not saying I've watched either, but I know their
offensive line is not good.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Their offensive line is not good, and it got worse
on Sunday Night. But like I watch a lot of
Patrick Mahomes were just as a fan, I'm like, holy crap,
there's superhuman stuff going on here, and there just hasn't
been nearly as much of that. Maybe the offensive line
woes are the major contributing factor. But I it's that's
that to me is interesting. Does Patrick Mahomes turning this
(36:22):
superman again? And if the answer is no, can achieve
somehow reverse their fortunes.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
You do need some good players around you.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It does help.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Yeah, it does help.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
We can send some of the Bengals players to Kansas
City and see if Patrick can.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Win with those guys, which ones all the defensive plates.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Okay, Paul Dayler Tringer at the Athletic dot com and
the Growler Podcast. We are here at Oakley Greens. Paul,
thank you so much. But our guy Jeff Carr joins
us to talk about what's next since the redsident. Can
Schwarber next? On ESPN fifteen.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Thirty Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
Traffic from the UC Help Traffic Center at U see Healthy.
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The Ravens fly into Cincinnati for a battle with our Bengals.
Will sach Taylor's Orange and Black bust Baltimore in the
beak and whip up a win. Find out when you
get the call live from Dan Horde and Dave lamp.
The game kicks off at one pm, with coverage starting
at nine am. Sunday. Streams for free on the new
and improved iHeart Radio app or ESPN fifteen thirty, the
(00:23):
official home of the Cincinnati Bengals.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What's up? It's three oh six. This is ESPN fifteen
thirty on Moolegas. Thank you for listening today. Hopefully you're
having an awesome Tuesday. We are posting up at Oakley Greens.
This is what I love about Oakley Greens this time
of year. It's festive. It's festive. You mean, there's holiday lights,
there's a Christmas tree made of beer kegs. We've got
(00:48):
Shibaka and Darth Vader holding a various Christmas paraphernalia. It's
but it's not in your face festive.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's not like walking into a Chris Kindle market. No, no, no,
it's it's but if you're like, you know what I
don't want it to be that festive cool, then you're
gonna enjoy coming to Oakley Greens. By the way, right now,
if you buy one hundred dollars worth of Oakley Greens
gift cards, you'll get twenty five free, so you can't
beat that. Take advantage of that. It's an awesome place
(01:16):
to watch. Gee, we've got the college football playoff coming up.
You've got the Bengals. Bengals continuing in their pursuit of
an AFC North Championship, which the athletic tells me they
have a three percent chance of winning. You could watch
the game on Sunday. College college basketball is going great
in my life. So if you want to watch the
Bearcats play Georgia, maybe the Bulldogs have a player that'll
(01:39):
go off and score more than twenty points, and perhaps
they'll double team him. You could see if that happens
here at Oakley Greens. All sorts of stuff that you
can hang out here and watch. We love it. There
are gracious hosts. Lauren the bartender always takes great care
of us, and we love coming to this establishment. We're
out of the way early today at five thirty because
the UK basketball, So keep that mind. Our friend Paul
(02:01):
Danner Junior is here from the Athletic in the Grolar podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
How's it going it correct? Yeah, it's going great.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
It sounds like, uh, you know, I think everybody's in
a very similar place with THEIRS CINCINNTI sports teams right now.
So we can you know, go ahead and keep that
tone rolling. You want to talk about Kyle Swarber, why not?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Hey, how close? Were they not? Close? No?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
You know it was the uh you know, does he
want to come back here and play at home? There
is a way to assure that that happened. Yeah, do
you know what that is?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You pay the man.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
You just you pay him.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
You pay more than anybody else is willing to because
it matters to you, because he'd be a perfect fit
for you if if that was the way that it was.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, I am not.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I'm genuinely interested in how serious the pursuit was.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I will look at this. I would admit.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I will admit, like late last week, I'm like, all right,
maybe they pull this off. Maybe they pulled it. Maybe
they're like, you know what, this is our shot. We're
gonna like change our brand by financially coming to the party.
And making this work. Like I kind of to convince
myself late last week. I don't know why.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Yeah, no, I mean it's it certainly doesn't fit any
of the rest of the strategy that they're going with
right now at this point at all. But I don't know, dude,
at what point do we say, oh, we give credit
for pursuit. I don't give much credit for pursuit. You
(03:25):
don't get credit for pursuit anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
You don't get credit for pursuit.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I don't know what happened to the microphone there, but no, no,
this is the bottom line business. And look what I
would say to the Castellini say, is in your decades
of running businesses, do you give credit for people who
try or to give credit for results. And that's how
I view this, that they get no credit for And
I'm sure there are people willing to give it to them.
Well they you know, they were kind of they were there, Like, no,
(03:50):
they weren't. There's no press conference there. You either got
to the number or you didn't get to the number.
There's either a press conference where Kyle Schwarber tries on
a jersey and then has your logo on it, or
there isn't and there's not, so that's all that matters.
This is results oriented.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
And it you may be able to find a better
way to make it work with the other plan, the
alternative to you know what that would have been, you know,
because there would be holes left if you were gonna
give this money and you're gonna have to trade away
Brady Singer or the other things that you would have
to do, and it would leave you short and you'd
have have bullpen depth issues or whatever. Maybe maybe there's
(04:26):
there's ways that this you gotta go win doing whatever.
But if you don't win and it's because you didn't
hit enough home runs or didn't have enough offense, which
has been a familiar theme around here, it's hard not
to look back and say, Ah, there was the investment
right there in front of you, the perfect fit, the
perfect guy, and just sit here and hit bombs for
the next five years and try to help you win
te And like.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
My question all along has been, this is not likely
to happen. So what's plan B. Like if you're pinning
your hopes on Kyle Schwerber's plan A, Okay, that doesn't
plant pan out. Can't get my words right? If that
doesn't pan out. Plan B to solve declaring issue as
it relates to lack of pop is what what's gonna cost?
(05:09):
Is it gonna involve a trade? Is it gonna involve
a free agent who's a little under the radar. Is
it gonna involve putting together an offense that doesn't have
that guy but still making it better this offseason? Like
what's if it wasn't Kyle Schwarber? What's planned B? Was
my question in October. It's my question here in mid December.
And I'm sure there are I'm sure there are answers.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I mean, he's not the only guy out there, right
And and you know the idea of giving that kind
of money if you are on a limited budget and
it takes away from somewhere else, there's a diminishing return
element to that because you're taking away from another area. Now,
maybe you can add and not have to take away,
and you can build his strength whatever. I don't know
(05:52):
enough about what that the second, third, and fourth tier
looks like.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
But it needs to be something.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
It can't just be bet on guys getting better because
we've we've kind of been down and that's not a
disbelief in those guys you just us that can be a.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Part of it, but that that can be a part
of it. I have a feeling that Plan B is
the next version of Austin Hayes.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah. Probably.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I mean that's that's what That's what these That's what
it looks like in this model, right in the the
model of the teams that are the lower market teams
that are trying to find their way to moneyball the system,
so to speak, and and win more with less.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That's what it has to look like.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Let's talk about what does Sunday look like in Orchard Park.
That game on Sunday encapsulated my biggest gripe about this
team that Joe Burrow has to be perfect. Yeah, and
in the absence of perfection, they have no chance. And
Joe Burrow wasn't perfect. And look man the first to
admit his postgame demeanor told you everything you need to know.
(06:59):
He throws a pick six that you can't throw. He
knows that. Unfortunately it happened. They're not good enough to
overcome that. That is my single biggest gripe about the
Cincinnati Bengals, That it's built on the quarterback being superhuman,
which by the way for three plus quarters. He was like,
for three plus quarters, he was awesome, dude, Like, and
(07:20):
you talked about this on the Growlery like that was
a fun quarterback duel Alan Burrow in the snow high Stakes,
like late in the season, it was awesome. It's great drama,
great theater. Joe Burrow was terrific. The moment he stopped
the Bengals, chances of winning that game went away.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, you can't. You can't make mistakes. You can't only
score thirty four. Yeah, thirty four, just thirty four.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
You can't. You can't do that. And that's.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's the it's the frustrating element, and it's it's why
we use terms like waste seasons and things like that,
because nobody, just nobody else has asked to do this.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
And I mean that, like.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
No one else is asked to go out here and
if we could be could be forty this week, Joe, Like,
that's not you know, Josh Allen, we saw him do
superhuman things on Sunday and he has done them plenty
in his career. He's not consistently asked to go get forty.
They have a bad defense too, right, But it's it's
not It's not like that, and I mean the numbers,
(08:24):
you know, I tweeted it after the game, but like,
you can't run from this. It's the defining stat of
the last two years. When they score thirty three or
more their four and seven and the rest of the
NFL is one hundred and thirty six.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Ten and two.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
You can't lose these games. That is that is six
seven wins over the last two years. That because you
were just beyond comprehension bad on defense, you gave away
when your offense did more than enough to win it
for you. That's not on Joe Burrow. He wasn't perfect.
He was more than good enough to beat a playoff
(09:02):
team on Sunday. And that's the shame of it, because
any one of those plays, going back and doing the
rewatch of it and diving a little bit more in
the defense. We spent twenty five minutes at AL Golden yesterday,
I come away with a feeling of it where I
think it actually was very much in line with what
(09:23):
they have been over the last month, incrementally getting a
little bit better, only because we were previously only comparing
them to teams from the twenties and the thirties, but
still incrementally getting better. There's a goal line stand here,
there's a day of turnovers here, there's a couple of plays.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
What you're seeing Mike Paul coming from Miles Murthy and.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
DJ Turner and and you're they're not missing as many
tackles right like, you're seeing some of it incremental growth.
And I think you saw it in this game. They
were getting to the advantageous situations. They forced four fourth downs,
they got them to third and fifteen at the end.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
They all of these things.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
They weren't teams were not sniffing third down and long
earlier in the season. They weren't putting teams, especially good
offenses like the Bills, in to fourth downs that they
have to choose to go for. I think you can
see that. But the bottom line is our question going
into it was can they make the play? Can they
(10:25):
take the next step? Can they get the stop in
the fourth quarter? Can they make that one play that
changes the course of the game.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And the answer was no, they still can't do it. There.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Maybe they're better than they were, maybe it is coming
along a little bit, but by week fourteen, like it's
just got to start to get there, and it just
hasn't to this point, and that's unfortunate. It doesn't mean
that there isn't still something to the fact that it
has started to get a little bit better. That gives
you some hope that at least it's not going completely
(10:59):
in the opposite direction, which is hard to imagine. But
there's some of that, okay, but there's still nowhere near there.
They're still so far away, and it ends.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Up think about how you'd be feeling what we'd.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Be talking about right now if they made one of
those fourth down stops, if they get the interception from
Jordan Battle or DJ Turner or whatever. Think about that
they win this game and Burrow was what he was
just dialed in unbelievable. And they're sitting here and there
are two games back of the Steelers and they are
(11:35):
rolling in Burrow and everything. It is not just that
you're not wasting the season. This could be the most
legendary run ever. Like you're feeling it, you feeling that
is just that was a playoff team, Beals. The Bengals
played like a playoff team against another one in an
environment that felt like a playoff atmosphere. Burrow was doing
the type of stuff that you've seen him do and
(11:56):
you've imagined him being able to do in January, and
it's why you got this guy. It's why you build
towards late in the season. But you just can't make
one more play, right You can't make one more play
on defense. And that's the hard part right now, is
like they're just weren't asking for much and they still
haven't been able to.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Get it all the way there this year.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That's the lens through which I watched the game, specifically,
in the fourth quarter, they go up ten early fourth
Buffalo gets possession, and I'm going they get a stop here.
Game on. I'm like keeping an eye on Pittsburgh and
Baltimore and I'm thinking, okay, Like, if they close this
(12:38):
out number one, there is the tangible proof that the
defense is better when it needs to be. Get to
stop here, up ten points, close the deal on the road.
Then let's go fourth and goal. All right, get a
stop here, get a stop here. Gonna have to go
to length to the field, but still get a stop here.
(13:01):
Can't third and fifteen give up fourteen yards, give up
give up a fourteen yard pass, give up a fourteen
yard run, give up a fourteen yard trick play anything
but converting the first down right here, it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Is, it is.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And if you give the ball back to Joe the
way he's playing in spite of the two mistakes, my
money is on him at least making this really interesting.
Right He's gonna have something to say about how this
game ends and maybe how this season unfolds from here
moving forward if you give him the ball, so al
your guys give them the ball. Didn't. So like that's
(13:38):
the lens through which I watched the fourth quarter, thinking
like number one, if they give Joe Burrow a chance,
they're going to win. And number two, when they win,
the conversation is gonna change, and we are going to
start to talk about them them at least having a
clearer path to pulling off the impossible. And yet, as
(13:59):
they have all seen along, the defense failed and the
big moment failed failed.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Have not been able to get a stop in the
fourth quarter all year, all year. Yeah, in any spot.
I mean, and you're sitting here, you build the lead.
They played the game to essentially perfection before the Benford
pick midway through. I mean, you're up ten points on
the road. You're up ten points on the road. I
mean they they had they gotten that. They said, give
(14:27):
us the ball first, go out. We're gonna go score.
We're gonna jump out. We're gonna try to take their
running game and their crowd a little bit out of it.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
We're gonna get quickly.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
You score touchdowns on your first three drive, and you get.
You get the luck, they got a little bit. They
got the break with the slip, they get the red
zone thing. Then you get you eventually get the fumble
into the end zone by James Cook. You get a
couple of breaks even that fall your way to give
you some stops that maybe you didn't totally deserve. And
still with all of that, you're sitting there in that
(14:56):
perfect spot and you can't just finish a game. It
goes back to the Bears, it goes back to the Jets.
It goes back to all of these games where it's
been like, just get one single fourth quarter stop and
it can be done. They cannot close out anything. And
you know you mentioned the run by Allen, not third
and fifteen, but the forty yarder.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
You have an.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Untouched head dresher, you have Cedric Johnson, and you bring
the blitz to get a free hitter like this is
what it's about. Now, you dial it up and here
it is and you can't even get your.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Hand on it.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
You don't even take a tight enough angle to the
quarterback to get a hand in them. Well yeah, well,
when you're bringing blitzes and your free hitter doesn't even
touch a guy, guess what When it's Josh Allen, it's
it's gone. And on third and fifteen, when you apparently
have you know, players that won Geno Stone. I knew
(15:51):
you had to be enjoying that moment when it was
Josh Allen versus Geno Stone. Don't space one on one
for your season. You knew that was coming. I told you, Yeah,
I told you what I said. As the play is unfolding, heget.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Here we go. This is the one.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
I mean, just imagine the stunning surprise if you would
have actually seen him make that tackle. But to me, though,
it's more it's it's Demetrious Night on the sideline, face
guarding like he's in a box and one defense against
a halfback, completely unaware that behind him, directly behind him
(16:27):
as a linebacker on the team, Josh Allen is running
to end your season. He's twelve yards downfield. Night hasn't
even turned around yet. Still is there not even a
roar of the crowd? Are you here to make you wonder?
Be curious what's happening behind you? I mean that's the
stuff like this is it's and it's you know, you're
fourth and three at the goal line, right, just get
(16:48):
it here at the end of the game that you
know they're going for the juggular, here's your chance to
have your goal line stand to crack back. And what
happens some dude just decides to just go out to
the flat and leave the tight end standing there all
by himself, right in front of Josh Allen.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And you have that.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
You go through all of those fourth downs, any one
of these where it's like Joseph Osai on a fourth
down decides to try to do a spin move and
he just falls to the ground so Dion Dpkins can
stand on top of him and clear Josh Allen to
just buy two seconds to go out that direction, and
you just Miles Murphy taking an inside path and they
can't cover it on the outside. Like you know, there's
(17:28):
a lot of tip your hat to Josh Allen stuff.
But there's also just awareness on the field from anyone.
But it's stuff bad players do. They can't find a
way to make a play in the big moment, they
can't see what's going on, and they just consistently get
taken advantage of. And that's the story of this team
because it was built on poor players.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Right now, here's.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
How demented I am in the fourth quarter, up ten,
even up three with the ball, I was gonna close
this out and we have an AFC North race and
the Bengals are coming home to play the Ravens. Yeah,
and the ruler of the jungle will be Kyle Schwarber.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
This is the moment. This is what.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
This is where my headspace was on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Oh, it could have been perfect, it could have been.
This is what this is what this is what it
would have been.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
This is when in the dream Cincinnati sports world, this
is how it all comes together.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's in the fourth quarter. That's where my headspace, that's
where I am thinking.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
And I honestly, as we as we were sitting there
in the in the third fourth quarter, I thought, after
that unbelievable drive that ended in the Kasiki touchdown, Yes,
the winning the game.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I did too. How about this?
Speaker 4 (18:47):
They came into Buffalo and did it again. They came out,
they executed their game plan and perfection. They just what
an unbelievable drive. That the type of drive you put
a game away with. Probably having watched this team for
for however long, should have known better. But it felt
that way, like it felt as much as it's ever
felt with this team this year, that they were in
(19:09):
complete control in a big moment. It felt that way
like Burrow had seized that for that with that drive,
it was like, Oh, that's the.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
One that we're gonna look back on.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
When Evan McPherson's pat went through the uprights, I went
to FanDuel dot com and their AFC North title odds
dropped to plus four hundred. Yeah, as low as they've
been probably since after Week two. Plus four hundred went
back up not soon thereafter. All Right, we're way late
twenty five after three o'clock. Paul Danner Junior latest Growler
(19:40):
podcast is out. Make sure you catch that and read
them at the Athletic dot com where at Oakley Greens.
Paul's here till four, We're here till five thirty on
ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Station Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
Traffic from the UC Health Traffic Center at UCE Healthy.
You'll find comprehension of care that's so personal it makes
your best tomorrow possible. That's boundless care for better outcomes.
Expect more at UCHealth dot com. A new accident in
on Hopples Street. It is over at I seventy five.
Also still got that accident on Gilbert Avenue at Elsinore Place.
(20:17):
Right now, traffic is solo on eastbound two seventy five
going from Kellong Avenue back to over to five milely
five minute delay construction as the right lane closed off.
I'm at Ezelek with traffic this.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Week away from four o'clock, we're at Oakley Greens. This
is ESPN fifteen thirty. If you have not been to
Oakley Greens, check it out. By the way, the parking
is free, it's on site. TV situation is awesome. The
staff here is terrific. We love coming out here every
single Tuesday. Paul and I have more to discuss. Paul
Danner Junior from The Athletic and the Growler podcast including
(20:54):
y T. Higgins, was in the game on Sunday. Even
if he was awesome when he was in the game
on Sunday, We'll get to that. I'm back on ESPN
fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports Station.
Speaker 7 (21:04):
Not just talk, This is sports with Soul, sweat and swagger.
Tony Pike, Sincy three sixty Tomorrow at twelve noon on
ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 6 (21:19):
Traffic from the UC Health Traffic Center at UCE Healthy.
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more at UCHealth dot com. On the Ohio side of
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accident between Union Center Boulevard and two seventy five at
(21:41):
five to ten minute delay to go through there, another
crash on Gilbert Avenue. It's over at Elsinore Place, and
one more accident on Hoppel at I seventy five. I'm
at Ezelic with traffic this report.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's our service of Kelsey Chevrolet, home of lifetime powertrain
protection and guaranteed credit approval. From there to yours for life,
Kelsey chev dot com. Kyle Schwarber is not going to
play for the Reds at least not in twenty twenty
six or twenty twenty seven or twenty twenty eight or
twenty twenty nine or two thousand and thirty unless the
Phillies trade into the Reds. I say that because he
(22:15):
has re signed with the Phills five years, one hundred
and fifty million dollars for the Middletown native. Ken Rosenthal
reports the Reds offer was five for one to twenty five.
We'll see what plann b is. Any Bengals news today,
any anything, Yes, there was a big Newsy day.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
They got the news out of the way yesterday. Yeah,
nothing yet today. College basketball tonight on ESPN fifteen thirty.
It's Kentucky battling North Carolina Central. Tip off at seven
pregame at five thirty. Also tonight, Ohio State takes on Illinois,
and Indiana Square is off against penn State. Hockey Tonight
the Blue Jackets skate on the road against Carolina Paul
(22:49):
Danner juniors. Here from the athletic We uh, We've hit
on a lot of things in a short amount of time,
and I have so much more. Yeah, the news I
guess will end up being if someone ends up claiming
Jermaine Burton, which is I guess interesting to see if
anybody thinks that that's worth a fire for them.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I don't really have a Jermaine Burton question. Yeah, you know,
when it was important he was suspended, I thought like
the news would have been Jermaine Burton's gonna play.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
So this this just sort of felt like either they
moved on at the end of this year, or they
moved on at some point during the season and they have.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah, it's it felt like, oh, Okay, finally, you know, I
mean that was kind of the the I mean, they
had more patients than I would have in terms of
how long the charades sort of went on this year.
But they, yeah, finally finally decided that obviously this is uh,
the trust is.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Never going to come back between organization and player. Explain
this to me.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
T Higgins was in concussion protocol was last week. Yeah, right,
was working out of it.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
It did work out.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It did work out of it. Plays in the game
on Sunday, Yes, hits his head on the turf. Is
pointing to his head like, hey, hit my head on
the turf. His head hits the turf again in the game.
As he's playing the game and playing very well, it
looks like he's dealing with some effect. There's something there,
something that would make you think maybe T is not
(24:15):
all right, But they never take him out of the game,
and then yesterday we find out he's back in concussion protocol.
Can you make that make sense?
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah, here's the thing, specifically, when it comes to concussions,
they're absolutely, unequivocally have to be guardrails in place to
make it so there is no gray area with this,
and there are, so the coaches and everybody else essentially
(24:45):
has to be taken out of the equation, and they do.
That's why the independent neurologists exists. That's why the guy
with the red hat takes you into the blue tent
and they give you the baseline test to test for
concussions when they take you in there. If you pass that,
that's all anyone can go off of. In the heat
of the game that's happening out there. He passes it, Okay,
(25:09):
he's okay. Then it happens again, take him in there again.
They do it again. In terms of it's it's the
spotter there's no saying that he definitely has it. Just
because a guy hits said it doesn't assign me he
has it. Says he's good, clears him to go back
into the game, whether whether it's making a decision I'm
(25:29):
deciding to keep you out or making decisions like get
back in there, those thoughts, those actions are taken away
from the staff, right and forget, And that's the way
that it should be. Yeah, so I don't I guess
I don't understand. I get what it looks like.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, it's how it looks because then you find out
he's in the protocol.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Well after the game, he reports that he was feeling
symptoms afterwards. Okay, that wasn't during the game.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Can can we then look back and say, t were
you trying to fake your way through it? Did you
successfully fake your way through it? Maybe that's part of
whatever happened with the neurologists, But to me, that falls
on the independent neurologists.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yes, no doubt, Well trust me.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
What or the entire process? My question is, I don't
know that there's I don't know. They certainly haven't come
up with a better way, and we know that they've
tried to.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
My question isn't based on a belief for an assumption
that the Bengals did something wrong. It was it just
it's how it adds up. He was in protocol. I
watched him. He looked like he was struggling by the
way he was also awesome on Sunday. Looks like he's struggling.
Then we find out, well, actually they put him in
the protocol because he reported symptoms after the game. Something
(26:46):
in that process seems broken.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Trying to diagnose concussions is broken. Yeah, and I mean
generally like it's just it is it is. This is
the NFL gray area. Okay, of they don't really they
haven't come up with any fail safe you know process here.
There's no way to do it right in that moment
(27:10):
other than you end up sometimes taking people out of
the game that don't.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Have concussions at all.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Sure because you think that it looks like they might have, right,
and the PA and the NFL sign up for this process.
They abide by this process, and all they can do
is go with it. And I also do think you know,
I mean, I've certainly never played I played it in
some intense games in grade school when I played football.
(27:36):
I don't know what it's like to be out there
and go through one of these games where you don't know,
everything hurts, you're playing through stuff. It's crazy, Like I
can't imagine. I'm not wired like these guys don't do
anything like that. But I imagine there's lots of times
where once you get out of the game, the heat
of the game and it ends, and you're sitting there
in the locker room and you're able to, you take
more stock of how do I actually feel? So that's
(28:01):
probably part of this for Tea right, and for whatever
it's worth, and very little. He was very normal talking
like there wasn't any Do we hear stories of like
after a game where Chad Johnson was just like yelling
thing you right, and like pr had to come in
and stop it. Back in the day, This wasn't It
(28:21):
was a very normal conversation. I've talked to T, been
in parts of interview scrums with T many many times
sounded nothing different than normal.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
I think this is an inherent issue in the NFL.
Is it's just a gray area, man, and then and
all they can go by is whatever this independent neurologist
says that's all they can go by. That's how he
ends up back in the game, and that's how it
ends up after the game with someone saying, I'm feeling
symptoms now, and you end up back in the in
(28:53):
the protocol, and I'd imagine this will probably be a
longer stint there, and it may it may even end
up being the last we see of t this year.
I don't know, but you know, it's I it's it's
it's just a hard thing to navigate.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Uh, finding out that Trey Hendrickson is opting for surgery,
did that feel like an inevitable end to his season
and Bengals career?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah? Yes, this was where this ended, right, Like.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
There was this idea that, okay, well maybe if they
end up in something, he could come back later in
the year.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
But I think.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
It certainly feels like the timing of that was about
on point.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
As soon as it feels like, okay, this thing's over,
we're just gonna move it on here and and and
move along, and you know, so it goes that. It's
the situation. I think it's pretty clear what dell this
is right now. It's yeah, it's it's again more gray area,
but the gray area of like how much could you pain?
(29:58):
Could you push through? Versus are you willing to versus
taking care of yourself and making sure that you're one
hundred percent ready by the time you get to free agency.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And that's where it's at.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But do you have a favorite all time Bengals Walter
Payton Man of the Year winner? It's no longer a nominee.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
It's a winner. Oh are we we are? They've changed
the verbont they've changed the verbage.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Yeah, well it should be that, yes, And And you
know here, can I tell you something I don't.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Like is teams have now in.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
The chase to win the Big Prize have had to
kind of try to find a way to work the
system where they're nominating the same guy multiple times. And
this is in no way it is no, no, no, I'm
not a digging that, but I'm just saying teams, I
think feel a lot of teams.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Are nominating the same guy multiple times.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
It does help build your case to win the Big Prize, right,
There are so many players that do great things that
deserve more recognition for them, and and I just hope
people don't. I'm not saying anything that they should that
they shouldn't have a guy like Ted Carris be nominated,
like what he's done here is unbelievable. But I just
(31:11):
want to see more people recognized deserve it for what
they do on teams. I would love to see you
like you can only be nominated once, you only be
the winner once for a team or something like that,
just because I want to see more of the good
work that so many players do put out there and
money given to their causes and things like that and
(31:33):
help build up so much of what everybody else is due.
I would love to see that. But I because I
was curious and I went to look around, Like, man,
a lot of guys are being nominated a second and
third and however many times, I'd love to see more
of these causes that guys have got behind, and more
of the work that they've done get put out there
and so you can have more people benefit, like like
(31:55):
Ted has done with all the work that he has done,
and Sam Hubbard before him, and Carlos done that before him.
There's been a bunch of them. So you don't have
a favorite of my favorite Walter Payton Man of the Year.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I mean, I think they've all been deserving.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
I mean, I think it's it's pretty I think Anthony
can Anthony muon you has to be my favorite.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, you know, he won the big I guess my
of the Bengals nominee slash winners. And again they not
that it matters, but they changed the verbiage where it
was it used to be he's you know, fill in
the blank. Sam Hubbard is the Bengals nominee for the
Walter Payton Man of the Year, and they've changed it
to Ted Carris is the Bengals Walter Payton Man of
(32:33):
the Year. He wins their award and now he's one
of thirty two. I guess, yeah, I guess, so that's fair.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I did listen to Drew Sample on the pregame show
on Sunday talk about some of the things he's doing,
and I thought, like, boy, that's there's a story there
that should be told. And nothing against the Bengals pregame show,
but like, this should not be the first time I'm
hearing of this.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And there's stuff that lots of guys do.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Yeah, and you know, and I think my cause my
cleats has been really good for that out and it
helped to get a little bit more exposure to stuff
that's out there.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, I would just I would just like.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
To see more of those stories out there and given
money through the official NFL channels. I think there's a
lot that can be done using that the power of
that particular award, or have multiple nominees and a winner
on each team where you can then have three or
four different guys causes kind of get some get some
(33:32):
love and exposure.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
There's I don't know, I just think there's stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I agree that's well put. All right, Well, thank you
my pleasure. Back next week talking about the Ravens game.
It's going to be excited. I feel like the process
to make the playoffs is so simple now that I
haven't had to go to the playoffs simulator.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
I mean, well, there's a chance there's a chance that
Joe Burrow and Patrick Mahomes both end up eliminating from
the playoffs in Week fifteen this weekend, which.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Is remarkable, isn't it crazy.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
There's there's a longer discussion that we need to have
this off season, and I think that that will have
be held a lot in NFL circles about why did
I why is this happening to not just Burrow, but
I mean so many of these big name quarterbacks struggling
even to get to the playoffs to be and then
having some of these teams built differently, uh that are there, yeah,
(34:25):
I mean that don't have that don't have the big
name quarterback that are showing up there now right now,
and just some of the roster construction I think, because
this is the first time it's felt like this in
a while where I think there's gonna be some interesting
roster construction fallout as we go through the off season.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
What if your general takeaway is Patrick Mahomes isn't that
good anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That would not be my general takeaway. I mean then
I don't know. I probably would mock myself.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I guess, well, you can mock me, because that's kind
of where I am right now.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
It's, uh, you don't think he's any good anymore.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
I don't think he's He's We're now in this Mahomes
isn't good by his standards. Thing that we've now done
in consecutive years where he is still capable of doing
awesome things, he just set the bar so damn high
early in his career that I wonder if just like
(35:18):
he's come back to the pack a little bit and
the way he's played, which is still quite good, is
the new norm where I felt like at the end
of last year, everybody was like, ah, he wasn't great
by his standards, but he's still not yet thirty. He's
gonna flip a switch. He's gonna be super human again.
And that didn't happen in Kansas City this year.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
Is it possible, and hear me out that any quarterback
need the decent offensive line in order it would be good.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Is that possible?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
It is that perhaps it just doesn't diminish the quarterback
when their offensive line is maybe really bad and they
have to try to overcome that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I haven't watched every Patrick Mahomes NAT.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I'm not saying I've watched either, but I know their
offensive line is not good.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Their offensive line is not good, and it got worse
on Sunday Night. But like I watch a lot of
Patrick Mahomes were just as a fan, I'm like, holy crap,
there's superhuman stuff going on here, and there just hasn't
been nearly as much of that. Maybe the offensive line
woes are the major contributing factor. But I it's that's
that to me is interesting. Does Patrick Mahomes turning this
(36:22):
superman again? And if the answer is no, can achieve
somehow reverse their fortunes.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
You do need some good players around you.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It does help.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Yeah, it does help.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
We can send some of the Bengals players to Kansas
City and see if Patrick can.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Win with those guys, which ones all the defensive plates.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Okay, Paul Dayler Tringer at the Athletic dot com and
the Growler Podcast. We are here at Oakley Greens. Paul,
thank you so much. But our guy Jeff Carr joins
us to talk about what's next since the redsident. Can
Schwarber next? On ESPN fifteen.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Thirty Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
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