August 21, 2023 • 16 mins
Our guest is Madeleine Kleven of FOOD ANIMAL CONCERNS TRUST (FACT), for a conversation about the use and consequences of antibiotics in the food we eat, protecting ourselves, and supporting humane farming. Before joining FACT, Madeleine worked in a laboratory setting, researching infectious organisms and their impacts on public health. She completed her graduate degree in public health at UC Berkeley with an emphasis in infectious diseases and vaccinology.
For more, visit foodanimalconcernstrust.org.
For more, visit foodanimalconcernstrust.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to get connected with Nina delRio, a weekly conversation about fitness,
health and happenings in our community onone oh six point seven light FM.
Good morning, and thanks for listeningto get connected with the summer barbecue and
grilling season underway. What do youknow about the food you're serving? What
are the consequences of the overuse ofantibiotics in industrial animal agriculture, even for
(00:27):
people who don't eat meat. Ourguest is Madeline Cleven of Food Animal Concerns
Trust FACT, for a conversation aboutthe use and consequences of antibiotics in the
food we eat, protecting ourselves,and we'll also talk about supporting humane farming.
Madeline Clevin, thank you for beingon the show. Thanks so much
for having me. The website isFood Animal Concerns Trust dot org. So
(00:53):
antibiotics in farming, people have heardabout it, but could you talk a
little bit to start about why they'reused witch animals and in theory, what
are they supposed to be doing?Yeah? Absolutely, And I guess I'll
just preface to talk a little bitabout FACT, so to give you some
context. So FACT is a nationalnonprofit. We're based in Chicago, and
(01:17):
really we're separated into two main programs. So our first is our Humane Farming
Program, where we provide critical resourcesto help farmers really adopt humane farming practices,
promote sustainable food systems, and usea lot of educational tools for those
who are actually producing the food.And then kind of what I primarily work
(01:42):
on is in the Safe and HealthyFood Program, and exactly what you mentioned
really urging governmental and corporate action toreduce the threat of antibiotic resistance. And
this is a threat that's driven inlarge part by this massive overuse of antibiotics
in industrial agricult culture. And you'retotally right. You know, it's kind
(02:04):
of crazy because if we look at, you know, how many antibiotics are
used in the US, So twothirds of those that are shared between humans
and animals actually go or sold foruse in animals. They're not used to
treat sick people, which that's anexorbitant amount of antibiotics, and often those
(02:28):
antibiotics aren't even used to treat animals. They're used preventatively, often to compensate
for poor farming conditions and kind ofbasically unhealthy ways in which farmers can use
these antibiotics. So in theory,the antibiotics are there to keep the animals
(02:53):
healthy. But antibiotics weren't designed forthat use in the beginning, right.
They're designed to treat infection, notprevent infection exactly. And if you see,
like in human medicine, a lotof the times, you know,
we will use antibiotics if a womanis going in for a c section or
something, and we'll give them preventativelyto make sure there's no risk of infection
(03:15):
and things. But you know,except in pretty rare cases, you know,
you don't see humans getting antibiotics forhalf of their life to prevent them
from getting a respiratory illness. That'swhat you end up seeing in animals.
For example, cattle are given antibioticsantibiotic tylusin for most of their life because
(03:42):
they're fed a diet which you justcan cause liver abscesses. And when you
talk about the farming practices, you'realso talking about overcrowding and all these things
that can lead to issues, sothey want to prevent them by using antibiotics
upfront, exactly. So a lotof the animals are raised in confinement on
these huge industrial feeding operations where they'recrowded together in these unhealthy conditions where disease
(04:10):
can spread super easily between the animals. And also animals are weaned from their
moms too early and then shipped acrossthe states, so they're put in these
stressful conditions you know that foster thespread of disease. So you know,
in order to make sure these animalsdon't get sick, because they know they
(04:30):
most likely will, they feed themantibiotics. And that's a big problem.
So you mentioned the drugs being sharedwith people, you're talking about the antibiotics
being in the meat that people eat. When I was talking about the two
thirds of antibiotics shared between humans andanimals, I'm referring to medically important antibiotics.
(04:55):
And these are antibiotics like something likepenicillin that's used human medicine to treat
human infection, but then is alsoused to treat infections in animals as well.
So does the wide scale use ofantibiotics for livestock create a deficit in
antibiotics available for humans when humans actuallyneed them? Are they the same?
(05:18):
Antibiotics are similar? Yeah, soa lot of them are the same.
And I mean we actually have enoughantibiotics to go around. But the real
problem is those antibiotics are no longerworking. So we see antibiotic resistance developing
(05:39):
in these large scale industrial farming operations. And then these antibiotic resistant bugs can
spread via the environment or contaminated meatand get into your food supply. And
then say you ingest that contaminated meat, you get an antibiotic resist an infection.
(06:00):
Now, the same antibiotics that youknow, you may have just gone
into the doctor. You're like,oh, I'm feeling sick, I'm having
this problem. You get an antibiotic, you treat it, and now that
antibiotic doesn't work anymore. So that'sreally the bigger problem is the antibiotics that
we have in our arsenal are slowlydwindling as more of them become ineffective.
(06:27):
Our guest is Madeline Cleven of FoodAnimal Concerns Trust. Before joining FACT,
Madeline worked in a laboratory setting researchinginfectious organisms and their impacts on public health.
She has a graduate degree in publichealth from UC Berkeley, with an
emphasis in infectious diseases and faccinology.The website for FACT is Food Animal Concerns
Trust dot org. You're listening toget connected on one oh six point seven
(06:49):
light FM. I'm Nina del Rio. Where is the FDA on this?
Why are they slow to make changes? And what would you like to see
them do better? There is asignificant misuse and overuse of antibiotics and animals,
and we really would love to seemore action from the Food and Drug
(07:10):
Administration to curb and restrict this overuse. I know the FDA is responsible for
not only protecting the public health,but ensuring that our drugs remain safe and
effective, including antibiotics. We reallywant to see the FDA restrict this overuse.
But also one of the ways theycan do this is through following the
(07:33):
guidelines from the World Health Organization andcountries in the European Union and prohibiting these
preventive uses of antibiotics because healthy animalswho aren't sick really shouldn't be receiving antibiotics.
Well, let me ask this anotherway too. If there is an
overuse and a misuse, why doesthe FDA allow the practice to continue?
(07:56):
Yeah, that's a good question.I think. You know, the Food
and Drug Administration does have in theirfive year plan and they have goals for
stewardship and for promoting more judicious usesof antibiotics, but they don't explicitly have
goals for reducing the overuse of reducingthe use of antibiotics, where if you
(08:22):
see in countries in the European Union, they've set very strong targets for reducing
overall antibiotic use in order to curbthe antibiotic resistance crisis. And that is
language that the Food and Drug Administrationhasn't wanted to use. So one of
the things the FACT does is provideresources for consumers to make more informed choices.
(08:48):
What are the key things we shouldbe looking for. Yeah, that's
a great question, and that issomething like you mentioned on our website.
You can find some great resources forthat. But really, as a consumer,
I would say you have a lotof power and one simple way to
make a difference is to buy meatfrom local producers who raise animals humanely,
(09:13):
or look for products that are raisedwithout antibiotics or without the routine use of
antibiotics. In fact, this isnot only beneficial for tackling the antibiotic resistance
crisis, but improving your health aswell. We know animals raised humanely on
pasture or much healthier than animals raisedin confinement and produce nutritionally superior meat as
(09:35):
well, so it's kind of adouble benefit. Well, one of the
challenges for consumers, I'm sure you'veheard this, is that responsibly farmed food
unfortunately tends to be more expensive ifthe food doesn't have antibiotics in it,
or that it's pasture raised without thesegiant factory barns. Why does it tend
(09:56):
to be more expensive? What amI actually paying for? You're completely right,
and that can be a little hardbecause if you are buying meat that
is raised, you know, onpasture and humaine conditions, the animal has
room to kind of live its lifeto you know, graze, and it
(10:16):
has room to grow and kind oflive a more like whole lifestyle. And
because of that, you know,more room is it's more expensive. It's
cheaper to raise animals like confined andcram together. You know, you can't
have as many animals on pasture asyou can in a confinement operation. But
(10:39):
really, like I mentioned, you'repaying for not only a higher quality of
meat with better fat quality, increasedlevels of vitamins and nutrients, but you
are paying to help with the antibioticresistance crisis and promoting a more sustainable food
(11:00):
system. Your thoughts on that Forpeople who would like to be able to
choose X, but they have abudget. So I would say, you
know, one thing that I doin my home because yeah, sustainably raised
you mainly raised meat is more expensive, and so what we do is,
(11:20):
you know, we still have meat, but less often during the week,
or we choose you know cuts thatIt's great because when you buy local meat,
you can talk to the person,the farmer who's raising the meat.
You can ask, you know,what cuts might be a little more like
less expensive that I could buy orwhat is something that I could do.
(11:45):
You can often also kind of talkwith your local producer and see kind of
what options you have for like makingthe food more affordable. You know,
I would say in general, two, when you think about what you are
paying for when you're paying for betterquality meat that's also healthier and better you
(12:09):
know, for the public health ingeneral, I'd say two, those are
costs for medical costs and the burdenof antibiotic resistance. You know, the
medical costs from that, you know, you're not seeing those costs getting an
antibiotic resistant infection. It's definitely moreextensive than you know, finding options that
(12:31):
are a little bit healthier. Asthis issue has become more of a concern
Medling, it seems like there isa momentum among farmers too to produce healthy
food without antibiotics. How much ofthe industry would you say is doing this
now or making changes? Really,We've seen actually pretty big changes in the
(12:52):
chicken industry do in large part toconsumer demand. We've seen now a lot
a lot of different producers now raisingpoultry without antibiotics or without the routine use
of antibiotics, and that's been areal plus. But still I would say,
(13:13):
while I think there are more producersfor cattle and pork, that's still
wears. The vast majority of animalsare raised in confinement and where the mass
like majority of antibiotics are being used. So we would love to see more
cattle and pork producers, local producers. I would say, Well, you
(13:35):
have resources for farmers on the website. What in general could you say would
be the biggest challenge for farmers?Is it land? Since you mentioned pasture
raised animals are just more expensive becausethe land's more expensive. Yeah, and
it is like a multifaceted problem andbeing a farmer is hard. It is
tough work, and you know,it's tough to raise your animals humanely and
(14:01):
like make a great living, butit is completely possible, and I think
you know that's one thing, LikeI mentioned on our website, we have
excellent webinars from our Humane Farming programthat give great resources and tips on you
know, how to raise animals inthe best way and still make a great
(14:24):
living. And I think you know, land is one of the issues as
well as you know, accessibility togetting animals and making sure you have all
of the tools you need. ButFACT also provides grants and scholarships for those
who are looking to you know,expand their farms and really try more humane
(14:48):
farming practices. And so if youare interested in that, you should definitely
check out the website. Yeah,how how else can the public help you
in your work? So if youdo sign up for our email or go
on Food Animal Concerns Trust dot org. We often are writing to congressional offices
or talking to the Food and DrugAdministration the USDA, and we give a
(15:15):
lot of opportunities through action alerts andinitiatives for our supporters to send messages and
get the word out if they wantto be involved, there's lots of ways
that you can be You can findout more at Food Animal Concerns Trust dot
org. Our guest has been MadelinClevin. Thank you for being on the
(15:35):
show. Thank you so much.This has been get connected with Nina del
Rio on one oh six point sevenLightfm. The views and opinions of our
guests do not necessarily reflect the viewsof the station. If you missed any
part of our show or want toshare it, visit our website for downloads
and podcasts at one o six sevenlightfm dot com. Thanks for listening.
Welcome to get connected with Nina delRio, a weekly conversation about fitness,
health and happenings in our community onone oh six point seven light FM.
Good morning, and thanks for listeningto get connected with the summer barbecue and
grilling season underway. What do youknow about the food you're serving? What
are the consequences of the overuse ofantibiotics in industrial animal agriculture, even for
(00:27):
people who don't eat meat. Ourguest is Madeline Cleven of Food Animal Concerns
Trust FACT, for a conversation aboutthe use and consequences of antibiotics in the
food we eat, protecting ourselves,and we'll also talk about supporting humane farming.
Madeline Clevin, thank you for beingon the show. Thanks so much
for having me. The website isFood Animal Concerns Trust dot org. So
(00:53):
antibiotics in farming, people have heardabout it, but could you talk a
little bit to start about why they'reused witch animals and in theory, what
are they supposed to be doing?Yeah? Absolutely, And I guess I'll
just preface to talk a little bitabout FACT, so to give you some
context. So FACT is a nationalnonprofit. We're based in Chicago, and
(01:17):
really we're separated into two main programs. So our first is our Humane Farming
Program, where we provide critical resourcesto help farmers really adopt humane farming practices,
promote sustainable food systems, and usea lot of educational tools for those
who are actually producing the food.And then kind of what I primarily work
(01:42):
on is in the Safe and HealthyFood Program, and exactly what you mentioned
really urging governmental and corporate action toreduce the threat of antibiotic resistance. And
this is a threat that's driven inlarge part by this massive overuse of antibiotics
in industrial agricult culture. And you'retotally right. You know, it's kind
(02:04):
of crazy because if we look at, you know, how many antibiotics are
used in the US, So twothirds of those that are shared between humans
and animals actually go or sold foruse in animals. They're not used to
treat sick people, which that's anexorbitant amount of antibiotics, and often those
(02:28):
antibiotics aren't even used to treat animals. They're used preventatively, often to compensate
for poor farming conditions and kind ofbasically unhealthy ways in which farmers can use
these antibiotics. So in theory,the antibiotics are there to keep the animals
(02:53):
healthy. But antibiotics weren't designed forthat use in the beginning, right.
They're designed to treat infection, notprevent infection exactly. And if you see,
like in human medicine, a lotof the times, you know,
we will use antibiotics if a womanis going in for a c section or
something, and we'll give them preventativelyto make sure there's no risk of infection
(03:15):
and things. But you know,except in pretty rare cases, you know,
you don't see humans getting antibiotics forhalf of their life to prevent them
from getting a respiratory illness. That'swhat you end up seeing in animals.
For example, cattle are given antibioticsantibiotic tylusin for most of their life because
(03:42):
they're fed a diet which you justcan cause liver abscesses. And when you
talk about the farming practices, you'realso talking about overcrowding and all these things
that can lead to issues, sothey want to prevent them by using antibiotics
upfront, exactly. So a lotof the animals are raised in confinement on
these huge industrial feeding operations where they'recrowded together in these unhealthy conditions where disease
(04:10):
can spread super easily between the animals. And also animals are weaned from their
moms too early and then shipped acrossthe states, so they're put in these
stressful conditions you know that foster thespread of disease. So you know,
in order to make sure these animalsdon't get sick, because they know they
(04:30):
most likely will, they feed themantibiotics. And that's a big problem.
So you mentioned the drugs being sharedwith people, you're talking about the antibiotics
being in the meat that people eat. When I was talking about the two
thirds of antibiotics shared between humans andanimals, I'm referring to medically important antibiotics.
(04:55):
And these are antibiotics like something likepenicillin that's used human medicine to treat
human infection, but then is alsoused to treat infections in animals as well.
So does the wide scale use ofantibiotics for livestock create a deficit in
antibiotics available for humans when humans actuallyneed them? Are they the same?
(05:18):
Antibiotics are similar? Yeah, soa lot of them are the same.
And I mean we actually have enoughantibiotics to go around. But the real
problem is those antibiotics are no longerworking. So we see antibiotic resistance developing
(05:39):
in these large scale industrial farming operations. And then these antibiotic resistant bugs can
spread via the environment or contaminated meatand get into your food supply. And
then say you ingest that contaminated meat, you get an antibiotic resist an infection.
(06:00):
Now, the same antibiotics that youknow, you may have just gone
into the doctor. You're like,oh, I'm feeling sick, I'm having
this problem. You get an antibiotic, you treat it, and now that
antibiotic doesn't work anymore. So that'sreally the bigger problem is the antibiotics that
we have in our arsenal are slowlydwindling as more of them become ineffective.
(06:27):
Our guest is Madeline Cleven of FoodAnimal Concerns Trust. Before joining FACT,
Madeline worked in a laboratory setting researchinginfectious organisms and their impacts on public health.
She has a graduate degree in publichealth from UC Berkeley, with an
emphasis in infectious diseases and faccinology.The website for FACT is Food Animal Concerns
Trust dot org. You're listening toget connected on one oh six point seven
(06:49):
light FM. I'm Nina del Rio. Where is the FDA on this?
Why are they slow to make changes? And what would you like to see
them do better? There is asignificant misuse and overuse of antibiotics and animals,
and we really would love to seemore action from the Food and Drug
(07:10):
Administration to curb and restrict this overuse. I know the FDA is responsible for
not only protecting the public health,but ensuring that our drugs remain safe and
effective, including antibiotics. We reallywant to see the FDA restrict this overuse.
But also one of the ways theycan do this is through following the
(07:33):
guidelines from the World Health Organization andcountries in the European Union and prohibiting these
preventive uses of antibiotics because healthy animalswho aren't sick really shouldn't be receiving antibiotics.
Well, let me ask this anotherway too. If there is an
overuse and a misuse, why doesthe FDA allow the practice to continue?
(07:56):
Yeah, that's a good question.I think. You know, the Food
and Drug Administration does have in theirfive year plan and they have goals for
stewardship and for promoting more judicious usesof antibiotics, but they don't explicitly have
goals for reducing the overuse of reducingthe use of antibiotics, where if you
(08:22):
see in countries in the European Union, they've set very strong targets for reducing
overall antibiotic use in order to curbthe antibiotic resistance crisis. And that is
language that the Food and Drug Administrationhasn't wanted to use. So one of
the things the FACT does is provideresources for consumers to make more informed choices.
(08:48):
What are the key things we shouldbe looking for. Yeah, that's
a great question, and that issomething like you mentioned on our website.
You can find some great resources forthat. But really, as a consumer,
I would say you have a lotof power and one simple way to
make a difference is to buy meatfrom local producers who raise animals humanely,
(09:13):
or look for products that are raisedwithout antibiotics or without the routine use of
antibiotics. In fact, this isnot only beneficial for tackling the antibiotic resistance
crisis, but improving your health aswell. We know animals raised humanely on
pasture or much healthier than animals raisedin confinement and produce nutritionally superior meat as
(09:35):
well, so it's kind of adouble benefit. Well, one of the
challenges for consumers, I'm sure you'veheard this, is that responsibly farmed food
unfortunately tends to be more expensive ifthe food doesn't have antibiotics in it,
or that it's pasture raised without thesegiant factory barns. Why does it tend
(09:56):
to be more expensive? What amI actually paying for? You're completely right,
and that can be a little hardbecause if you are buying meat that
is raised, you know, onpasture and humaine conditions, the animal has
room to kind of live its lifeto you know, graze, and it
(10:16):
has room to grow and kind oflive a more like whole lifestyle. And
because of that, you know,more room is it's more expensive. It's
cheaper to raise animals like confined andcram together. You know, you can't
have as many animals on pasture asyou can in a confinement operation. But
(10:39):
really, like I mentioned, you'repaying for not only a higher quality of
meat with better fat quality, increasedlevels of vitamins and nutrients, but you
are paying to help with the antibioticresistance crisis and promoting a more sustainable food
(11:00):
system. Your thoughts on that Forpeople who would like to be able to
choose X, but they have abudget. So I would say, you
know, one thing that I doin my home because yeah, sustainably raised
you mainly raised meat is more expensive, and so what we do is,
(11:20):
you know, we still have meat, but less often during the week,
or we choose you know cuts thatIt's great because when you buy local meat,
you can talk to the person,the farmer who's raising the meat.
You can ask, you know,what cuts might be a little more like
less expensive that I could buy orwhat is something that I could do.
(11:45):
You can often also kind of talkwith your local producer and see kind of
what options you have for like makingthe food more affordable. You know,
I would say in general, two, when you think about what you are
paying for when you're paying for betterquality meat that's also healthier and better you
(12:09):
know, for the public health ingeneral, I'd say two, those are
costs for medical costs and the burdenof antibiotic resistance. You know, the
medical costs from that, you know, you're not seeing those costs getting an
antibiotic resistant infection. It's definitely moreextensive than you know, finding options that
(12:31):
are a little bit healthier. Asthis issue has become more of a concern
Medling, it seems like there isa momentum among farmers too to produce healthy
food without antibiotics. How much ofthe industry would you say is doing this
now or making changes? Really,We've seen actually pretty big changes in the
(12:52):
chicken industry do in large part toconsumer demand. We've seen now a lot
a lot of different producers now raisingpoultry without antibiotics or without the routine use
of antibiotics, and that's been areal plus. But still I would say,
(13:13):
while I think there are more producersfor cattle and pork, that's still
wears. The vast majority of animalsare raised in confinement and where the mass
like majority of antibiotics are being used. So we would love to see more
cattle and pork producers, local producers. I would say, Well, you
(13:35):
have resources for farmers on the website. What in general could you say would
be the biggest challenge for farmers?Is it land? Since you mentioned pasture
raised animals are just more expensive becausethe land's more expensive. Yeah, and
it is like a multifaceted problem andbeing a farmer is hard. It is
tough work, and you know,it's tough to raise your animals humanely and
(14:01):
like make a great living, butit is completely possible, and I think
you know that's one thing, LikeI mentioned on our website, we have
excellent webinars from our Humane Farming programthat give great resources and tips on you
know, how to raise animals inthe best way and still make a great
(14:24):
living. And I think you know, land is one of the issues as
well as you know, accessibility togetting animals and making sure you have all
of the tools you need. ButFACT also provides grants and scholarships for those
who are looking to you know,expand their farms and really try more humane
(14:48):
farming practices. And so if youare interested in that, you should definitely
check out the website. Yeah,how how else can the public help you
in your work? So if youdo sign up for our email or go
on Food Animal Concerns Trust dot org. We often are writing to congressional offices
or talking to the Food and DrugAdministration the USDA, and we give a
(15:15):
lot of opportunities through action alerts andinitiatives for our supporters to send messages and
get the word out if they wantto be involved, there's lots of ways
that you can be You can findout more at Food Animal Concerns Trust dot
org. Our guest has been MadelinClevin. Thank you for being on the
(15:35):
show. Thank you so much.This has been get connected with Nina del
Rio on one oh six point sevenLightfm. The views and opinions of our
guests do not necessarily reflect the viewsof the station. If you missed any
part of our show or want toshare it, visit our website for downloads
and podcasts at one o six sevenlightfm dot com. Thanks for listening.
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