August 26, 2024 • 15 mins
Dr. Tovah Klein is a child psychologist and researcher who has spent the last three decades working with families of children and teens, with a recent focus on childhood trauma. Her new book is RAISING RESILIENCE: HOW TO HELP OUR CHILDREN THRIVE IN TIMES OF UNCERTAINTY.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to get connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly
conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on
one oh six point seven light FM.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Raising kids is a challenge in the best of circumstances,
but in addition to everyday events, families are also confronted
by instability in the world COVID nineteen, school safety, social media,
stressful politics. Our guest is doctor Tova Klein, a child
psychologist and researcher who has spent the last three decades
working with families of children and teens, with a recent
(00:34):
focus on childhood trauma. Her new book is Raising Resilience,
How to help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty.
Doctor Tovahklin, thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Doctor Tovaklin is a psychology professor at Barnard and director
of the Barnard College Center for Toddler Development. Her previous
book is How Toddlers Thrive and Doctor Klin, when we
talk about resiliency regarding adults, you know we've made it
through something difficult, We've maybe learned through the experience. Children
are difficult. They don't have that experience. They may not
(01:07):
understand what they're dealing with. What do you mean by
resiliency in kids.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's actually related to adults,
you know. I think one of the things that happens
is we think of resiliency as the outcome of when
something bad happens, how do we get back on our feet?
And in fact, I think of resiliency as a child's
or person's ability to adapt, to adjust, to handle life
(01:38):
no matter what life gives us, because so much is unpredictable,
so much is uncertain, and bad things happen whether we
like it or not. Bad things happen to our children,
sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big ways. So it's
that ability to face it, to handle the situation with
support from people, to come out on the other side,
(01:58):
and in fact, can come out on the other side stronger.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So what is the root then, of resiliency in kids?
What role do parents play and what tools might be
innate typically in a child.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah, it's a great way to phreeze the question. Actually,
so the parents play a role of I want to say,
nearly everything. Where children come into the world as who
they are, we call that personality temperament, and the parents
are here to help them develop, but also protect and
buffer them. So it's in that everyday relationship what parents
(02:34):
are doing every day with their child to get them up,
get them out the door, help them with homework, help
them in the disappointments that happen every day with your
child's three or thirteen, and then when stress occurs, to
help your child through at the teacher that they really love,
happens to be absent in the day of a big test,
(02:56):
that's pretty upsetting, and you help them through it. Plans change, friends,
won't play with you. So the parent is actually building
through their relationship with a child, trust, a sense of
security and safety in the child, the child's ability then
to move out in the world and feel like they
(03:17):
have an impact, like I can make decisions, and carrying
them out. We call that agency, you know, connect to others,
and all of that is being built every single day.
So we often think of resiliency as this one time thing,
but in fact, the message of my book Raising Resilience
and for parents listening is really that resilience is this
(03:38):
piece of what you build every single day in your
interactions and relationships with your child.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
As a child psychologist, to just a little bit about
your history. You've specialized in the effects of traumatic situations
on kids and families. In nine to eleven, you worked
with kids dealing with the japan earthquake and tsunami. You
write in the book that New York specifically was a
living labor during the pandemic. You were watching to see
how parents and kids responded. Were now a couple years
(04:06):
out from like the depths of that. But what was
maybe the number one change you saw and what are
you still seeing or what is most likely to have lingered?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, so, look, the rug was ripped out from everybody
throughout the world, and New York City in many ways
was kind of ground zero for the US, and then
it was everywhere, And so I was here. I was
here with my own family. So as a parent, I
was running a program for children that we had to
suddenly figure out how to keep doing that online. My
(04:38):
own children were in school, so I had all of it.
I was living it, and I was watching it as
I was working with parents with children. I had my
own teenagers here. You know, some of the changes that
have come out of that have been positive, meaning for
the youngest children, they were at home with parents and
I hear this over and over now that children are
(05:00):
in elementary school, I would never have gotten that time
with my child right and that helped build a relationship,
even though it was under stress. Not that this was
a good time, but some positive things could come out
of it. What are the pieces that I think has
come out of it? I mean, obviously our lives have
changed tremendously, and depending on your life or either level
(05:22):
of stress or loss that people had in the pandemic
is going to tell you a little bit about where
they are now. But one of the things I see
is a much greater sense of flexibility. Because we did
have to shut down, we did have to go home.
Those of us who had to go to work, first responders, teachers,
(05:42):
eventually frontline workers. We learned that we could get through
some really tough things because none of us wanted this,
But we also learned how to be flexible in an
incredible way. How to structure the house if you had,
you know, a third grader online and a high school
kid who was complaining, and maybe a maybe whatever it was,
we figured out in a very stressful situation, how to
(06:04):
do work, how to take care of our children, you know,
how to help them with school. Parents are not supposed
to be their child's full time teacher, but that's what happened.
So all of those pieces have led to now years
out and people looking back. And this is another study
I did of about one hundred and five parents nationally
(06:24):
who had a child at home during the shutdown, did
an interview study at the time, about a year into
the pandemic of what life was like and what we
heard then and what I hear and follow up is
it was hard. It was very hard, and we changed
how we relate. We've held on to dinner time three
(06:47):
times a week because we realized how important cooking all
of those meals were during the panic. We've tried to
slow down, even though that's hard now that we're reopened,
and a lot of gratefulness all that people did have
as well as countering all the bad that was happening.
So those are good life lessons.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I think I'm going to ask you a couple questions
related to that in a moment, but let's remind everybody
who we're speaking with. Doctor Tova Klein is a psychology
professor at Barnard College and director of the Barnard College
Center for toddler development. She's appeared on CNNCBS, The New
York Times, Wall Street Journal, read Book and other places,
and her new book is Raising Resilience, How to help
(07:29):
our children thrive in times of uncertainty. You're listening to
Get Connected on one six point seven light FM. I'm
Nina del Rio. So routine. You know when that routine
is broken, perhaps that change is unpleasant, unexpected. Depending on
the child's age, of course, what language do you recommend
to help them deal with disruption?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So disruption is part of life. If there's something we
can count on, its uncertainty, and disruption leads to uncertainty.
And that's really what was happening at that initial shutdown.
None of us knew what was going on. So again
depending on the age of a child, but they all
need an explanation. They know something has changed, they don't
(08:10):
know what. So some version of in the pandemic, for example,
we have to stay home. There's a new illness. We're
not quite sure what it is, but the doctors and
the scientists and everybody's working to make us safe. And
so for right now, we have to stay home, as
frustrating as that is. And here's some of the things
(08:32):
we're going to do now that we're at home. And
then I always suggest to parents get those routines in place.
Two year olds need it, fifteen year olds need it,
and adults need it. So that was that time where
it was like a schedule for you know, setting up
school and who's going to do the lunch meal and
(08:54):
what are the steps of the day. And then we
get a little less rigid about it because people got
a little too serious. But then it was like, okay,
pull back, but you need a basic rhythm of a
day in order for any of us to really feel grounded.
And the key to helping children through uncertainty is the
parents feeling grounded even when they're stressed, because the more
(09:16):
grounded the parent is, the more they're able to help
a child and not filter or give to them all
the stress. Instead, they can filter out some of it.
Children count on us to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
For them, even when the issue is something out of
a parent's control, whether it's a flood in the house,
you know, terrible weather, or something larger than that. It's
getting them back into some sort of routine, regardless of
our power to how to even think about it right.
Sometimes parents are stressed too, So.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Much of it is out of our control. You know.
After nine to eleven, I was working with families and
interviewing them downtown who had seen the World Trade Center
tax and it was horrific, and yet the stories that
were told over and over published with that, then we
got to safety. Then we figured out, okay, who's going
(10:06):
to sleep whear? How do we set up meals? Is
there a playground nearby for our young children? And by
day two they had routines in place. Even when you
can't control the wider world, which none of us can,
you can provide this sense of safety at home. And
that's what's building both trust for your child to trust
(10:28):
that they're going to be okay and trust that the
parents are going to help them be okay, and that
the parents aren't gonna lie or hide things, but they're
going to say this is hard, here's what we know
is going on, and here's what we're going to do
to keep us safe or get us back to school,
you know, or make sure we can get the things
done we need to get done. And then children feel
(10:50):
like okay, and teenagers need a higher level of that.
They are going to have more questions, more need for explanation,
but you always want to do it with their needs
in mind. What's that child thinking, what questions do they
want to ask? And what is she worrying about, which
may be different than what I'm worrying about.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
On another topic, as an adult, I find I don't
always need advice from my friends when I want to
talk about something. Sometimes you just need to say it.
You just need to vent. And you say the same
thing in the book that our kids might talk to
us more if we're just in listener mode versus trying
to solve the problem, even if we can see the
answer or we think we have the solution. Why and
when is listening more useful than offering advice.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Listening is going to get you more almost all the time,
and it's part of the core the fabric of relationships.
So when children come to us and they complain about
everything that happened that day, I mean middle schoolers, high
schoolers are particularly good at this. They want to vent
(11:54):
and what they don't want is to be lectured and corrected.
And it doesn't mean they're awful people. So you might say, wow,
he's got a really great life. I know that school
is wonderful, How could he just be complaining? How could
she say everything is wrong? It's like a cathartic moment
for the child, and then they settle down and the
fact that they've been listened to actually says to them,
(12:17):
I can tell my parents anything I want. They're gonna
listen and not judge me, not shame me, not try
to make me feel bad. In some way, that's what
opens relationships to closeness. Now, when do you step in?
You step in when there's a real problem, or maybe
later when the child brings it up again and you say,
(12:38):
would you like some help thinking this through? How to
approach your friend tomorrow? And sometimes the child says no,
And sometimes I say hmm, or you say, remember the
last time you were kind of in a struggle trying
to write that essay, I was remembering what helped you through.
So you're giving them some sense of you've gotten through
this before. I'm here to help you. But it's because
(13:01):
you've listened so much. We all, I think want like
a best friend or ally who can do that as
an adult, and children want the same thing. Plus you're
building your relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And also I think it's hard for parents sometime or
any adult to lay back when your child, the child
you're with is having sometimes of strong emotion, especially negative ones.
When they're having a big emotion, it's useful. How is
that useful? Sometimes you read that in the book.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, so look, emotion sets us off. And a big
thrust of my book is who are we as the parents?
Who are you as the parent? And there's a lot
of reflective questions and thinking about what do I bring
to this as humans? When another human is in distress,
let alone this child that we're so close to, or
(13:48):
they're angry, it sets us off, and being aware of
your own reaction feelings arousal can help you stay planted. Really,
what children need is for us to stay grounded. Then
we allow them to be upset. You might say something
like you're so upset, I get it, and allow them
to be there, or sometimes a hand on the shoulder
(14:10):
or moving closer. It's not always words, but allowing children
to be upset says to them, this is part of
being human, and I'm here for you and I'll help
you get back to a place where you feel okay.
When we rush in, it says to a child, it's
not right to be angry or it's not right to
be upset about that, and I can't I as a parent,
(14:31):
can't handle that, and that's actually scary to a child.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
There's so much more in the book. I wish we
could continue, but we've run out of time. You can
find more in Raising Resilience, How to help our children
thrive in times of uncertainty. The author is our guest,
doctor Tova Klein. Thank you for being on to Get Connected.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Oh, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
This has been Get Connected with Nina del Rio on
one IO six point seven light Fm. The views and
opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views
of the station. If you missed any part of our
show or want to share it, visit our website for
downloads and podcasts at one O six seven lightfm dot com.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to get connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly
conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on
one oh six point seven light FM.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Raising kids is a challenge in the best of circumstances,
but in addition to everyday events, families are also confronted
by instability in the world COVID nineteen, school safety, social media,
stressful politics. Our guest is doctor Tova Klein, a child
psychologist and researcher who has spent the last three decades
working with families of children and teens, with a recent
(00:34):
focus on childhood trauma. Her new book is Raising Resilience,
How to help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty.
Doctor Tovahklin, thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Doctor Tovaklin is a psychology professor at Barnard and director
of the Barnard College Center for Toddler Development. Her previous
book is How Toddlers Thrive and Doctor Klin, when we
talk about resiliency regarding adults, you know we've made it
through something difficult, We've maybe learned through the experience. Children
are difficult. They don't have that experience. They may not
(01:07):
understand what they're dealing with. What do you mean by
resiliency in kids.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's actually related to adults,
you know. I think one of the things that happens
is we think of resiliency as the outcome of when
something bad happens, how do we get back on our feet?
And in fact, I think of resiliency as a child's
or person's ability to adapt, to adjust, to handle life
(01:38):
no matter what life gives us, because so much is unpredictable,
so much is uncertain, and bad things happen whether we
like it or not. Bad things happen to our children,
sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big ways. So it's
that ability to face it, to handle the situation with
support from people, to come out on the other side,
(01:58):
and in fact, can come out on the other side stronger.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So what is the root then, of resiliency in kids?
What role do parents play and what tools might be
innate typically in a child.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah, it's a great way to phreeze the question. Actually,
so the parents play a role of I want to say,
nearly everything. Where children come into the world as who
they are, we call that personality temperament, and the parents
are here to help them develop, but also protect and
buffer them. So it's in that everyday relationship what parents
(02:34):
are doing every day with their child to get them up,
get them out the door, help them with homework, help
them in the disappointments that happen every day with your
child's three or thirteen, and then when stress occurs, to
help your child through at the teacher that they really love,
happens to be absent in the day of a big test,
(02:56):
that's pretty upsetting, and you help them through it. Plans change, friends,
won't play with you. So the parent is actually building
through their relationship with a child, trust, a sense of
security and safety in the child, the child's ability then
to move out in the world and feel like they
(03:17):
have an impact, like I can make decisions, and carrying
them out. We call that agency, you know, connect to others,
and all of that is being built every single day.
So we often think of resiliency as this one time thing,
but in fact, the message of my book Raising Resilience
and for parents listening is really that resilience is this
(03:38):
piece of what you build every single day in your
interactions and relationships with your child.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
As a child psychologist, to just a little bit about
your history. You've specialized in the effects of traumatic situations
on kids and families. In nine to eleven, you worked
with kids dealing with the japan earthquake and tsunami. You
write in the book that New York specifically was a
living labor during the pandemic. You were watching to see
how parents and kids responded. Were now a couple years
(04:06):
out from like the depths of that. But what was
maybe the number one change you saw and what are
you still seeing or what is most likely to have lingered?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, so, look, the rug was ripped out from everybody
throughout the world, and New York City in many ways
was kind of ground zero for the US, and then
it was everywhere, And so I was here. I was
here with my own family. So as a parent, I
was running a program for children that we had to
suddenly figure out how to keep doing that online. My
(04:38):
own children were in school, so I had all of it.
I was living it, and I was watching it as
I was working with parents with children. I had my
own teenagers here. You know, some of the changes that
have come out of that have been positive, meaning for
the youngest children, they were at home with parents and
I hear this over and over now that children are
(05:00):
in elementary school, I would never have gotten that time
with my child right and that helped build a relationship,
even though it was under stress. Not that this was
a good time, but some positive things could come out
of it. What are the pieces that I think has
come out of it? I mean, obviously our lives have
changed tremendously, and depending on your life or either level
(05:22):
of stress or loss that people had in the pandemic
is going to tell you a little bit about where
they are now. But one of the things I see
is a much greater sense of flexibility. Because we did
have to shut down, we did have to go home.
Those of us who had to go to work, first responders, teachers,
(05:42):
eventually frontline workers. We learned that we could get through
some really tough things because none of us wanted this,
But we also learned how to be flexible in an
incredible way. How to structure the house if you had,
you know, a third grader online and a high school
kid who was complaining, and maybe a maybe whatever it was,
we figured out in a very stressful situation, how to
(06:04):
do work, how to take care of our children, you know,
how to help them with school. Parents are not supposed
to be their child's full time teacher, but that's what happened.
So all of those pieces have led to now years
out and people looking back. And this is another study
I did of about one hundred and five parents nationally
(06:24):
who had a child at home during the shutdown, did
an interview study at the time, about a year into
the pandemic of what life was like and what we
heard then and what I hear and follow up is
it was hard. It was very hard, and we changed
how we relate. We've held on to dinner time three
(06:47):
times a week because we realized how important cooking all
of those meals were during the panic. We've tried to
slow down, even though that's hard now that we're reopened,
and a lot of gratefulness all that people did have
as well as countering all the bad that was happening.
So those are good life lessons.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I think I'm going to ask you a couple questions
related to that in a moment, but let's remind everybody
who we're speaking with. Doctor Tova Klein is a psychology
professor at Barnard College and director of the Barnard College
Center for toddler development. She's appeared on CNNCBS, The New
York Times, Wall Street Journal, read Book and other places,
and her new book is Raising Resilience, How to help
(07:29):
our children thrive in times of uncertainty. You're listening to
Get Connected on one six point seven light FM. I'm
Nina del Rio. So routine. You know when that routine
is broken, perhaps that change is unpleasant, unexpected. Depending on
the child's age, of course, what language do you recommend
to help them deal with disruption?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So disruption is part of life. If there's something we
can count on, its uncertainty, and disruption leads to uncertainty.
And that's really what was happening at that initial shutdown.
None of us knew what was going on. So again
depending on the age of a child, but they all
need an explanation. They know something has changed, they don't
(08:10):
know what. So some version of in the pandemic, for example,
we have to stay home. There's a new illness. We're
not quite sure what it is, but the doctors and
the scientists and everybody's working to make us safe. And
so for right now, we have to stay home, as
frustrating as that is. And here's some of the things
(08:32):
we're going to do now that we're at home. And
then I always suggest to parents get those routines in place.
Two year olds need it, fifteen year olds need it,
and adults need it. So that was that time where
it was like a schedule for you know, setting up
school and who's going to do the lunch meal and
(08:54):
what are the steps of the day. And then we
get a little less rigid about it because people got
a little too serious. But then it was like, okay,
pull back, but you need a basic rhythm of a
day in order for any of us to really feel grounded.
And the key to helping children through uncertainty is the
parents feeling grounded even when they're stressed, because the more
(09:16):
grounded the parent is, the more they're able to help
a child and not filter or give to them all
the stress. Instead, they can filter out some of it.
Children count on us to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
For them, even when the issue is something out of
a parent's control, whether it's a flood in the house,
you know, terrible weather, or something larger than that. It's
getting them back into some sort of routine, regardless of
our power to how to even think about it right.
Sometimes parents are stressed too, So.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Much of it is out of our control. You know.
After nine to eleven, I was working with families and
interviewing them downtown who had seen the World Trade Center
tax and it was horrific, and yet the stories that
were told over and over published with that, then we
got to safety. Then we figured out, okay, who's going
(10:06):
to sleep whear? How do we set up meals? Is
there a playground nearby for our young children? And by
day two they had routines in place. Even when you
can't control the wider world, which none of us can,
you can provide this sense of safety at home. And
that's what's building both trust for your child to trust
(10:28):
that they're going to be okay and trust that the
parents are going to help them be okay, and that
the parents aren't gonna lie or hide things, but they're
going to say this is hard, here's what we know
is going on, and here's what we're going to do
to keep us safe or get us back to school,
you know, or make sure we can get the things
done we need to get done. And then children feel
(10:50):
like okay, and teenagers need a higher level of that.
They are going to have more questions, more need for explanation,
but you always want to do it with their needs
in mind. What's that child thinking, what questions do they
want to ask? And what is she worrying about, which
may be different than what I'm worrying about.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
On another topic, as an adult, I find I don't
always need advice from my friends when I want to
talk about something. Sometimes you just need to say it.
You just need to vent. And you say the same
thing in the book that our kids might talk to
us more if we're just in listener mode versus trying
to solve the problem, even if we can see the
answer or we think we have the solution. Why and
when is listening more useful than offering advice.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Listening is going to get you more almost all the time,
and it's part of the core the fabric of relationships.
So when children come to us and they complain about
everything that happened that day, I mean middle schoolers, high
schoolers are particularly good at this. They want to vent
(11:54):
and what they don't want is to be lectured and corrected.
And it doesn't mean they're awful people. So you might say, wow,
he's got a really great life. I know that school
is wonderful, How could he just be complaining? How could
she say everything is wrong? It's like a cathartic moment
for the child, and then they settle down and the
fact that they've been listened to actually says to them,
(12:17):
I can tell my parents anything I want. They're gonna
listen and not judge me, not shame me, not try
to make me feel bad. In some way, that's what
opens relationships to closeness. Now, when do you step in?
You step in when there's a real problem, or maybe
later when the child brings it up again and you say,
(12:38):
would you like some help thinking this through? How to
approach your friend tomorrow? And sometimes the child says no,
And sometimes I say hmm, or you say, remember the
last time you were kind of in a struggle trying
to write that essay, I was remembering what helped you through.
So you're giving them some sense of you've gotten through
this before. I'm here to help you. But it's because
(13:01):
you've listened so much. We all, I think want like
a best friend or ally who can do that as
an adult, and children want the same thing. Plus you're
building your relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And also I think it's hard for parents sometime or
any adult to lay back when your child, the child
you're with is having sometimes of strong emotion, especially negative ones.
When they're having a big emotion, it's useful. How is
that useful? Sometimes you read that in the book.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, so look, emotion sets us off. And a big
thrust of my book is who are we as the parents?
Who are you as the parent? And there's a lot
of reflective questions and thinking about what do I bring
to this as humans? When another human is in distress,
let alone this child that we're so close to, or
(13:48):
they're angry, it sets us off, and being aware of
your own reaction feelings arousal can help you stay planted. Really,
what children need is for us to stay grounded. Then
we allow them to be upset. You might say something
like you're so upset, I get it, and allow them
to be there, or sometimes a hand on the shoulder
(14:10):
or moving closer. It's not always words, but allowing children
to be upset says to them, this is part of
being human, and I'm here for you and I'll help
you get back to a place where you feel okay.
When we rush in, it says to a child, it's
not right to be angry or it's not right to
be upset about that, and I can't I as a parent,
(14:31):
can't handle that, and that's actually scary to a child.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
There's so much more in the book. I wish we
could continue, but we've run out of time. You can
find more in Raising Resilience, How to help our children
thrive in times of uncertainty. The author is our guest,
doctor Tova Klein. Thank you for being on to Get Connected.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Oh, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
This has been Get Connected with Nina del Rio on
one IO six point seven light Fm. The views and
opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views
of the station. If you missed any part of our
show or want to share it, visit our website for
downloads and podcasts at one O six seven lightfm dot com.
Thanks for listening.
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