October 1, 2023 • 15 mins
Amid all of the recent strikes, protests, and the ongoing fight for dignity inside and outside of the workplace, our guest is Harvard sociologist and dignity expert Michèle Lamont, author of SEEING OTHERS: How Recognition Works and How It Can Heal a Divided World. Michèle Lamont is a Professor of Sociology and of African and African American Studies at Harvard University, where she is also the Robert I. Goldman Professor of European studies. For more, visit MicheleLamont.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to Get Connected with Nina delRio, a weekly conversation about fitness,
health and happenings in our community onone oh six point seven Light FM.
Good morning, and thanks for listeningto get connected amid the recent strikes,
protests and the ongoing fight for dignityinside and outside of the workplace. Our
guest is Harvard sociologist and dignity expertMichelle Lamont, author of Seeing Others,
(00:28):
How Recognition Works and How it canheal a divided world. Michel Lamont,
thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.
Michelle Leamont is a professor of sociologyand of African and African American Studies
at Harvard University, where she's alsothe Robert I. Goldman Professor of European
Studies. Recognition recognition in the firstplace, what are we talking about not
(00:49):
merely identification? Now one could thinkabout, you know, Patrin, recognition.
How if we often talked about toend the context of AI or I
recognize that this is an apple,or I recognize that this is gym on
the street. In fact, whatI mean by recognition here is really acknowledging
the value of people their worth,and it is a It contributes to a
(01:12):
feeling of dignity and respect that isso central to human beings. So it's
something that only human beings can dofor one another. One of the positive
examples of recognition I think so manypeople will in fact recognize was the election
of Barack Obama. So many peoplefelt seen. It's that idea exactly,
and psychologists after the election talked aboutthe Obama effect, which had to do
(01:37):
precisely with the fact that having Obamaand his family in the White House told
many African Americans, especially middle classAfrican American, that they were seen.
Suddenly, they felt like they hadthe public presence. The stereotype of African
American being mostly low income was kindof disconfirmed by this new fact. So
that's one example among a great many. And if you're in a group that
(02:02):
doesn't feel like I recognized, justhearing your acknowledgment of your presence, of
your worth on a larger scale,it really does mean something to you.
And if we're talking about recognition,the term worth often comes out. So
in the last year or so,Supreme Court has made several decisions terminating a
woman's right to abortion, undoing affirmativeaction, weakening LGBTQ plus protections. How
(02:28):
do those rulings get to the topicof recognition and also worth, who is
worthy and what is worthy in oursociety. I'm so happy that you mentioned
this specific example of these June decisionsat the Supreme Court, because I wrote
a dumphead for the La Times whichwas precisely on these decisions and also the
case of the students loans mostly takenby low income students, often students of
(02:54):
color, and how the decision wasreally disconfirming the fact that these very groups
were full members of the society,just as the you know, the the
repelling of roversus way did the samething for a women subordinating their decisions about
their body to the decisions of largergroup, often white males or males.
(03:17):
So it's really about It's not necessarilythe stat disorder, because status often means
socioeconomic status, how high achieving ineducation economically groups are. But it's about
the relative importance of their suffering aswe're discussing, you know, as groups
(03:39):
are kind of being for having theirdignity recognized in societies. So I want
to mention one other example too,because there's another side to this, the
idea that people can be recognized andit has a negative impact, perhaps thinking
about the deplorables, that term andthe messaging that attracted so many people and
(04:00):
continued to attract so many people tothe social messaging from the far Rider or
Donald Trump. We are being seen, but the messaging is not necessarily positive.
Yeah. Yeah, And the famoussentence of use of the term deplorable
by Hillary Clinton was very much alsoabout stereotyping supporters of Trump as people who
(04:25):
at least had been left in aworse position by the industrialization. But we're
also pitiful people in some ways.So it was just the opposite from giving
a group respect. One of thedown side, if you will, if
people getting respect is also that theycan become more visible as a group and
(04:45):
maybe more stereotype. On the otherhand, if you think about trans people
who were like largely invisible twenty yearsago, they were also erased. So
there's a real tension between you know, young trans people having no vocabulary to
express, you know, their feelingsand how they feel in the world versus
now the vocabulary is widely available.People talk about non binary pronouns or even
(05:10):
the debates around restrooms, unisex restroomsall have to do with this, but
it's also very much ridiculed, whichfeeds stereotypes. So yeah, if we're
talking specifically about the right side,the right wing, perhaps it's a message
that liberals haven't necessarily been able tocounter with anything other than that, you're
mean. People are putting the blamein the wrong place. They're putting it
(05:32):
on migrants and LGBTQ people, butthey feel that way because they have real
issues in their lives. It's thatsort of balance between recognition and actually,
let's solve the problem exactly. Andone of the big challenge I think that
the Democratic Party will have for thenext election is how to make compatible what
is often the legitimate feelings that manyworking class people have that they are totally
(05:56):
overlooked as the permano class culture,the culture of professionals and managers in our
society has become absolutely hegemonic, andthey feel many people view them as losers,
and they want to claim their place, claim their dignity, but they
become very sensitive to who's above andbehind them precisely because they feel so disrespected,
(06:16):
and that leads to you know,these boundaries against immigrants, and also
these boundaries against woke young people whothey often perceive as middle class people or
brats who are complaining about things theyshouldn't be complaining about as compared to the
challenges that worrying class people have.So how do we deal with this,
(06:40):
you know, competition for who hasstruggle most? And my answer is,
in part, well, let's recognizethat all human being dignity, and it's
not a competition for who should haveleast or less dignity. We all needed,
we'd all wanted, and starting withthis as a point of departure may
be a much more productive strategy thancompetition for who has suffered most. Let's
(07:01):
drill down on that after I remindpeople who were speaking with Michelle Lamont,
Professor of Sociology and of African andAfrican American Studies at Harvard, where she's
also the Robert I. Goldman Professorof European Studies. She's the co author
or author of over a dozen books. Her newest is seeing others how recognition
works and how it can heal adivided world. She can be found at
(07:23):
Michelle Lamont dot org. You're listeningto get connected on one oh six point
seven light FM. I'm Mina delRio So Solutions for building a more inclusive
society. One of the things thathas come up in the last few years
are these diversity, equity and inclusioninitiatives at work places. When are they
window dressing and when are they real? How would they work in a perfect
(07:45):
world? Well, there's ample researchthat shows that it doesn't work out well,
in part because the people who aren'tcharged with putting in place these policies
are often people of color, andit becomes for them a double burden.
Not only are they feel that they'revictive of macro aggression in the workplace,
but on top of it, theyhave to educate their white peers about the
(08:07):
context in which they live. Soinstead, current research, including the work
of Frank Dobbin and Sandrakalev, suggeststhat the organizations the corporations that have succeeded
best at diversifying their middle managing managerrank are those that create powerful networks of
(08:28):
mentoring and make it really making thepromotion of diversity a component of everyone's job.
All the middle level managers are supposedto do it, and they're supposed
to do it by really mentoring awide range of people, so they're not
necessarily talking about recognition. What Ithink I add to this debate is that,
you know, it's not only inclusion, it's really about having very open
(08:50):
conversation in the workplace about the importanceof fostering dignity for everyone. It's not
about racism as much as it isabout dignity, but dignity for everyone.
And I think that's a language thatreally resonates with a lot of people.
When I wrote a book I toldthe digna of working Man, I did
a lot of interviews with workers,and they kept talking about we have to
treat people like as people, youknow, let's relate to each other as
(09:13):
human beings. That's really a verycentral theme in working class culture, which
is why I think it can beso productive as a way to move forward.
Happiness is not necessarily linked with income. Sometimes this conversation is about people
should be compensated more at the workplace, which is another conversation, But how
(09:33):
do we lift people up in otherways? What is ordinary universalism? Well,
it's really emphasizing all that we shareas human beings. So for this
book, I was mentioning earlier thedigney of working man. I did a
lot of interviews with basically illiterate NorthAfrican immigrants working in Paris, and I
asked them what do you have incomeand what makes you similar and different to
(09:54):
French people, And very spontaneously theyjust point to to all kinds of evidence
that was part of their everyday life, like we all have to get up
in the morning to buy our bread, we all spend nine months in our
mother's womb, we all have tenfingers, So that really suggests that this
notion of what we all share isvery, very powerful, and there's all
(10:18):
kinds of ways that low status peopleare using to gain dignity in the course
of their daily life. In thebook, I talk about a woman who
work as how You cleaners basically inthe dorms of students in Malaysia, where
instead of being viewed as invisible inthe background, no one even notices them,
(10:39):
they develop relationships where they present themselvesas good aunties or grandmothers or keeping
an eye on the student's health.So really having a relationship with students that
are less tied to their status ismore like we're carrying human beings and we
live together. So I think thisis different than people who are just pushing
(11:01):
empathy and kindness because in my book, I emphasize the importance of narratives in
populating our environment in such way thatwe're more if you want inclined to give
recognition to people as opposed to simplythinking, is it our human nature to
be mean or to be you know, inclusive? No, it's partly the
(11:26):
like for instance, same sex marriage, as given us tools and cultural scripts
repartoire on how to you know,fully embrace LBGTQ people as full citizens of
our society. And that's a messagethat is tied to the institution. It's
not whether or not I get upin the morning and want to be a
(11:46):
kind person or not. But therehas certainly been pushedback. LGBTQ adults have
had many successes, but it's notbeen a string of unbroken green lights.
At the moment, there's pushed backfrom certain parts of the country. How
do we respond to that reactionary backlash. Well, every social movement that is
successful ends up having a counter movement. So think about you know, each
(12:11):
you know, school shooting creates morepeople buying guns because the program lobby tells
them you have to buy them nowbecause soon you won't be able to.
So I think it's really a reactioncounter reaction. This pendulum is part of
what and that vocacy society creates,and the progress yet is making being made
(12:33):
little by little. If I thinkabout second Way feminism compared to what feminism
today was about, there were lotsof fights that existed when I was fifteen
years old, are now, youknow, taken for granted. A lot
of the outcomes are fully taken forgranted by gen Z's and millennial to the
point where they really don't recognize whatkind of social change the boomers were able
(12:56):
to create. That's another thing,the age gap, right, the idea
that boomers don't understand and that genZ doesn't understand in general. How do
you think sort of that quest forrecognition can kind of heal the people at
the extreme polls, whether it's politicsor age or whatever, recognizing that everyone
is looking for this and also goingback to the question of generations, I
(13:18):
think that it would really help ifboomers fully acknowledge how much they screwed up
when it came to climate change,and on the other hand, understanding that
for gen Z's the American Dream issimply impossible. They're not going to buy
a house soon, and it's trueof the millennials as well, so embracing
One of the key argument of thebook is that embracing inclusion becomes an alternative
(13:41):
to the American dream. If youlive in a society of growing inequality,
trying to relate to people and alloweveryone to live authentically and enable this becomes
another way of living well, butin the present, as opposed to hoping
in forty years to get your whitepicket fans. You know, it's a
(14:03):
very different orientation toward the future.But there's a lot of things that gencs
don't want to live with that Boomer'sput up with, whether we think about
sexual harassment, and a lot morethat I think we need more of a
conversation around this across generation instead ofeach generation reprotecting each other and being blind
to what each group is aiming toaddress. There's so much more in the
(14:24):
book by Michelle Lamont, seeing othershow recognition works and how it can heal
a divided world. Our website isMichelle Lamont dot org. Thank you for
being on Get Connected. Thank youso much. This has been get Connected
with Nina del Rio on one ofsix point seven Lightfm. The views and
opinions of our guests do not necessarilyreflect the views of the station. If
(14:46):
you missed any part of our showor want to share it, visit our
website for downloads and podcasts at onesix seven lightfm dot com. Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Get Connected with Nina delRio, a weekly conversation about fitness,
health and happenings in our community onone oh six point seven Light FM.
Good morning, and thanks for listeningto get connected amid the recent strikes,
protests and the ongoing fight for dignityinside and outside of the workplace. Our
guest is Harvard sociologist and dignity expertMichelle Lamont, author of Seeing Others,
(00:28):
How Recognition Works and How it canheal a divided world. Michel Lamont,
thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.
Michelle Leamont is a professor of sociologyand of African and African American Studies
at Harvard University, where she's alsothe Robert I. Goldman Professor of European
Studies. Recognition recognition in the firstplace, what are we talking about not
(00:49):
merely identification? Now one could thinkabout, you know, Patrin, recognition.
How if we often talked about toend the context of AI or I
recognize that this is an apple,or I recognize that this is gym on
the street. In fact, whatI mean by recognition here is really acknowledging
the value of people their worth,and it is a It contributes to a
(01:12):
feeling of dignity and respect that isso central to human beings. So it's
something that only human beings can dofor one another. One of the positive
examples of recognition I think so manypeople will in fact recognize was the election
of Barack Obama. So many peoplefelt seen. It's that idea exactly,
and psychologists after the election talked aboutthe Obama effect, which had to do
(01:37):
precisely with the fact that having Obamaand his family in the White House told
many African Americans, especially middle classAfrican American, that they were seen.
Suddenly, they felt like they hadthe public presence. The stereotype of African
American being mostly low income was kindof disconfirmed by this new fact. So
that's one example among a great many. And if you're in a group that
(02:02):
doesn't feel like I recognized, justhearing your acknowledgment of your presence, of
your worth on a larger scale,it really does mean something to you.
And if we're talking about recognition,the term worth often comes out. So
in the last year or so,Supreme Court has made several decisions terminating a
woman's right to abortion, undoing affirmativeaction, weakening LGBTQ plus protections. How
(02:28):
do those rulings get to the topicof recognition and also worth, who is
worthy and what is worthy in oursociety. I'm so happy that you mentioned
this specific example of these June decisionsat the Supreme Court, because I wrote
a dumphead for the La Times whichwas precisely on these decisions and also the
case of the students loans mostly takenby low income students, often students of
(02:54):
color, and how the decision wasreally disconfirming the fact that these very groups
were full members of the society,just as the you know, the the
repelling of roversus way did the samething for a women subordinating their decisions about
their body to the decisions of largergroup, often white males or males.
(03:17):
So it's really about It's not necessarilythe stat disorder, because status often means
socioeconomic status, how high achieving ineducation economically groups are. But it's about
the relative importance of their suffering aswe're discussing, you know, as groups
(03:39):
are kind of being for having theirdignity recognized in societies. So I want
to mention one other example too,because there's another side to this, the
idea that people can be recognized andit has a negative impact, perhaps thinking
about the deplorables, that term andthe messaging that attracted so many people and
(04:00):
continued to attract so many people tothe social messaging from the far Rider or
Donald Trump. We are being seen, but the messaging is not necessarily positive.
Yeah. Yeah, And the famoussentence of use of the term deplorable
by Hillary Clinton was very much alsoabout stereotyping supporters of Trump as people who
(04:25):
at least had been left in aworse position by the industrialization. But we're
also pitiful people in some ways.So it was just the opposite from giving
a group respect. One of thedown side, if you will, if
people getting respect is also that theycan become more visible as a group and
(04:45):
maybe more stereotype. On the otherhand, if you think about trans people
who were like largely invisible twenty yearsago, they were also erased. So
there's a real tension between you know, young trans people having no vocabulary to
express, you know, their feelingsand how they feel in the world versus
now the vocabulary is widely available.People talk about non binary pronouns or even
(05:10):
the debates around restrooms, unisex restroomsall have to do with this, but
it's also very much ridiculed, whichfeeds stereotypes. So yeah, if we're
talking specifically about the right side,the right wing, perhaps it's a message
that liberals haven't necessarily been able tocounter with anything other than that, you're
mean. People are putting the blamein the wrong place. They're putting it
(05:32):
on migrants and LGBTQ people, butthey feel that way because they have real
issues in their lives. It's thatsort of balance between recognition and actually,
let's solve the problem exactly. Andone of the big challenge I think that
the Democratic Party will have for thenext election is how to make compatible what
is often the legitimate feelings that manyworking class people have that they are totally
(05:56):
overlooked as the permano class culture,the culture of professionals and managers in our
society has become absolutely hegemonic, andthey feel many people view them as losers,
and they want to claim their place, claim their dignity, but they
become very sensitive to who's above andbehind them precisely because they feel so disrespected,
(06:16):
and that leads to you know,these boundaries against immigrants, and also
these boundaries against woke young people whothey often perceive as middle class people or
brats who are complaining about things theyshouldn't be complaining about as compared to the
challenges that worrying class people have.So how do we deal with this,
(06:40):
you know, competition for who hasstruggle most? And my answer is,
in part, well, let's recognizethat all human being dignity, and it's
not a competition for who should haveleast or less dignity. We all needed,
we'd all wanted, and starting withthis as a point of departure may
be a much more productive strategy thancompetition for who has suffered most. Let's
(07:01):
drill down on that after I remindpeople who were speaking with Michelle Lamont,
Professor of Sociology and of African andAfrican American Studies at Harvard, where she's
also the Robert I. Goldman Professorof European Studies. She's the co author
or author of over a dozen books. Her newest is seeing others how recognition
works and how it can heal adivided world. She can be found at
(07:23):
Michelle Lamont dot org. You're listeningto get connected on one oh six point
seven light FM. I'm Mina delRio So Solutions for building a more inclusive
society. One of the things thathas come up in the last few years
are these diversity, equity and inclusioninitiatives at work places. When are they
window dressing and when are they real? How would they work in a perfect
(07:45):
world? Well, there's ample researchthat shows that it doesn't work out well,
in part because the people who aren'tcharged with putting in place these policies
are often people of color, andit becomes for them a double burden.
Not only are they feel that they'revictive of macro aggression in the workplace,
but on top of it, theyhave to educate their white peers about the
(08:07):
context in which they live. Soinstead, current research, including the work
of Frank Dobbin and Sandrakalev, suggeststhat the organizations the corporations that have succeeded
best at diversifying their middle managing managerrank are those that create powerful networks of
(08:28):
mentoring and make it really making thepromotion of diversity a component of everyone's job.
All the middle level managers are supposedto do it, and they're supposed
to do it by really mentoring awide range of people, so they're not
necessarily talking about recognition. What Ithink I add to this debate is that,
you know, it's not only inclusion, it's really about having very open
(08:50):
conversation in the workplace about the importanceof fostering dignity for everyone. It's not
about racism as much as it isabout dignity, but dignity for everyone.
And I think that's a language thatreally resonates with a lot of people.
When I wrote a book I toldthe digna of working Man, I did
a lot of interviews with workers,and they kept talking about we have to
treat people like as people, youknow, let's relate to each other as
(09:13):
human beings. That's really a verycentral theme in working class culture, which
is why I think it can beso productive as a way to move forward.
Happiness is not necessarily linked with income. Sometimes this conversation is about people
should be compensated more at the workplace, which is another conversation, But how
(09:33):
do we lift people up in otherways? What is ordinary universalism? Well,
it's really emphasizing all that we shareas human beings. So for this
book, I was mentioning earlier thedigney of working man. I did a
lot of interviews with basically illiterate NorthAfrican immigrants working in Paris, and I
asked them what do you have incomeand what makes you similar and different to
(09:54):
French people, And very spontaneously theyjust point to to all kinds of evidence
that was part of their everyday life, like we all have to get up
in the morning to buy our bread, we all spend nine months in our
mother's womb, we all have tenfingers, So that really suggests that this
notion of what we all share isvery, very powerful, and there's all
(10:18):
kinds of ways that low status peopleare using to gain dignity in the course
of their daily life. In thebook, I talk about a woman who
work as how You cleaners basically inthe dorms of students in Malaysia, where
instead of being viewed as invisible inthe background, no one even notices them,
(10:39):
they develop relationships where they present themselvesas good aunties or grandmothers or keeping
an eye on the student's health.So really having a relationship with students that
are less tied to their status ismore like we're carrying human beings and we
live together. So I think thisis different than people who are just pushing
(11:01):
empathy and kindness because in my book, I emphasize the importance of narratives in
populating our environment in such way thatwe're more if you want inclined to give
recognition to people as opposed to simplythinking, is it our human nature to
be mean or to be you know, inclusive? No, it's partly the
(11:26):
like for instance, same sex marriage, as given us tools and cultural scripts
repartoire on how to you know,fully embrace LBGTQ people as full citizens of
our society. And that's a messagethat is tied to the institution. It's
not whether or not I get upin the morning and want to be a
(11:46):
kind person or not. But therehas certainly been pushedback. LGBTQ adults have
had many successes, but it's notbeen a string of unbroken green lights.
At the moment, there's pushed backfrom certain parts of the country. How
do we respond to that reactionary backlash. Well, every social movement that is
successful ends up having a counter movement. So think about you know, each
(12:11):
you know, school shooting creates morepeople buying guns because the program lobby tells
them you have to buy them nowbecause soon you won't be able to.
So I think it's really a reactioncounter reaction. This pendulum is part of
what and that vocacy society creates,and the progress yet is making being made
(12:33):
little by little. If I thinkabout second Way feminism compared to what feminism
today was about, there were lotsof fights that existed when I was fifteen
years old, are now, youknow, taken for granted. A lot
of the outcomes are fully taken forgranted by gen Z's and millennial to the
point where they really don't recognize whatkind of social change the boomers were able
(12:56):
to create. That's another thing,the age gap, right, the idea
that boomers don't understand and that genZ doesn't understand in general. How do
you think sort of that quest forrecognition can kind of heal the people at
the extreme polls, whether it's politicsor age or whatever, recognizing that everyone
is looking for this and also goingback to the question of generations, I
(13:18):
think that it would really help ifboomers fully acknowledge how much they screwed up
when it came to climate change,and on the other hand, understanding that
for gen Z's the American Dream issimply impossible. They're not going to buy
a house soon, and it's trueof the millennials as well, so embracing
One of the key argument of thebook is that embracing inclusion becomes an alternative
(13:41):
to the American dream. If youlive in a society of growing inequality,
trying to relate to people and alloweveryone to live authentically and enable this becomes
another way of living well, butin the present, as opposed to hoping
in forty years to get your whitepicket fans. You know, it's a
(14:03):
very different orientation toward the future.But there's a lot of things that gencs
don't want to live with that Boomer'sput up with, whether we think about
sexual harassment, and a lot morethat I think we need more of a
conversation around this across generation instead ofeach generation reprotecting each other and being blind
to what each group is aiming toaddress. There's so much more in the
(14:24):
book by Michelle Lamont, seeing othershow recognition works and how it can heal
a divided world. Our website isMichelle Lamont dot org. Thank you for
being on Get Connected. Thank youso much. This has been get Connected
with Nina del Rio on one ofsix point seven Lightfm. The views and
opinions of our guests do not necessarilyreflect the views of the station. If
(14:46):
you missed any part of our showor want to share it, visit our
website for downloads and podcasts at onesix seven lightfm dot com. Thanks for listening.
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