Tim Rice Finds Writing Lyrics "Liberating"

Michael Riedel and Christine Nagy chat with legendary lyricist Tim Rice. Rice is one of the few EGOT winners, which means they have won Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, and Tony Awards. He was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame in 1999 and will now receive their highest honor, the Johnny Mercer Award. He talks about his career highs and lows and what is to come next.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
iHeartRadio Broadway Pretty Sense Inside Broadway,the podcast about everything theater. It's where
you hear what happens from the ticketwindow to the stage door, with the
stars and creative forces that make itall come alive. Here are your hosts,
Wars Michael Reidal and Light FM's ChristineNage. All Right, Michael,

(00:24):
I'm the thrilled to be talking toa legend. This man has won every
award I think imaginable and much deserved, one of the few EGOT winners,
meaning an Emmy, a Grammy,and Oscar Attony also winning the Johnny Mercer
Award for Songwriting. Please welcome,sir Tim Rice. Hello, so nice

(00:45):
to meet you. Nice to meetyou, and hello, thank you for
having me absolutely and congratulations on yetanother honor. You've written songs that we've
been singing along with for so manyyears. You've brought us so much joy.
So how are you feeling about thismoment? Well, I'm looking forward
to it. I'll see a lotof good friends in the songwriting and community,

(01:07):
if there is such a thing,and I'm hoping to hear some great
stuff from other people as well.There's always some interesting characters up on the
stage at the Songwriters Hall of Fame, and it's usually a very entertaining evening.
The only problem is I've got toget up and be part of it.
But other than that it should begreat, well, Tim. The

(01:27):
nice thing about it, because I'vebeen there a number of times with Clive
Davis, is that they have aperformer of the writer's choice sing one of
their songs, but then the writerhas to get up to do a song.
And if memory serves, I sawyou years ago performing at Holder's house
in Barbados, and you had aguitar and you sang a song you wrote

(01:49):
years ago. What was it calledKansas Kansas City. You're confusing two highlights
of my career. One is Iwrote a song called or actually I should
say low lights in that case,one of them was the original abysmal lyric
I wrote for I Don't Know Howto Love Him, that lovely Melody of
Andrews, which ended up in JesusPrice at the Star, and that tune

(02:14):
was really good. But before weeven thought about doing Jesus Christ Superstar,
we had a failed attempt to havea few pop hits, and in those
days seemed to us through a lotof hits on the British charts, which
featured American song places like Massachusetts andby the time I get to Phoenix and
all that. So I wrote alyric to this wonderful tune of Andrews called

(02:37):
Kansas Morning, and it was prettyawful. I'd never been in Kansas.
I still haven't been in Kansas.Funnily enough, I've been to nearly every
stage of the Union, but notKansas. And the song was not good.
So that's why I probably sang inBarbados he get usually gets a good
laugh. I'd sing the original lyricand also wrote a couple of songs myself

(03:01):
with tune as well before I metand Andrew. And when I met Andrew,
I thought, I don't think I'llgo on writing funds. Let me
ask you that. So how didyou and Andrew meet? Well, we
met by a rather strange string ofcircumstances. I took an idea for a
book. I was nineteen. Itook an idea for a book I had

(03:23):
to a book publisher that my motherknew was my only contact in the literary
world, in any world, really, and he didn't like the idea for
the book. It was basically alist of hits. It was a book
that studied the charts and analyzed them, which of course has turned out to
be a very good idea, whichwe did in England many years later very

(03:44):
successfully, and Joel Whitburn Record ofResearch has done it over here in America.
Brilliant books. Anyway, the publisherdidn't like the idea, and he
said, what else do you do? And I said, well, I've
I've written a song or two,and I played him one of them.
This is obviously be him Andrew,and he said I don't like those either,
but he said, I do knowyoung, a young songwriter who who's

(04:08):
looking for someone to write words.And I think your words are marginally less
gritten than your tunes, So whydon't you give Andrew a ring? So
I actually wrote him a letter becausethis was Breef pre mobile phones, it
was almost greet phones. And Iwent round to see him when you applied
to the letter, and he said, to my slight surprise, that he

(04:30):
was only really interested in writing fortheater. And he was sat down at
the piano and said, I've writtenquite a few musicals at school, and
here are some tunes. And Ithought, wow, this guy's good.
And I didn't know a lot aboutmusical theater, but I knew the scores
of quite a few great shows likeMy Fair Lady and The Rogers and Ammerstein
Songbook and all that, and Ithought, well, I'll give it a
go, because this guy is clearlygood. And I think my my ignorance

(04:56):
of theater coupled with his expertise soslightly fresh approach. I think if we'd
both been musical theater fanatics, Ithink we would have tried to follow the
rules a bit too much, thoughI didn't know what the rules were,
so that helped. So was thisa little out of order with I don't
know how to love him? Andalso, don't cry for me? Argentina
that the songs were hits before theshows. No, they were both hits

(05:23):
after the show, well at leastafter the record of the show. That
the Superstar album came out in Americaand Indian in England in late nineteen seventy
and it was written as a youknow, full, full piece of music,
lasting an hour and a half ofwhatever it was, and we hope

(05:43):
that there might be a song ortwo that would be a hit. There
weren't that many that seemed suitable forthe from the singles market, except I
Don't Know How to Love Him,and that turned out to be a big
hit, covered by Helen Ready initiallyin England, sorry in America. England,
it wasn't actually a hit to beginwith it, but it got covered
by a whole slew of distinguished Britishsingers in the end. And Don't Crab

(06:06):
Me Argentina was part of the Abitaalbum We did, and the album was
a big hit in England, unlikethe Superstar album. Originally, and Don't
Crab Me Argentina was pulled off asa single, which we didn't expect.
We didn't think it was really asingle. We thought it was a big
scene in the show, and wedidn't think the six minute song sung by

(06:29):
somebody who wasn't known to the recordpublic, Judy Covington, all about a
situation which people didn't really know muchabout, Argentina, all these things you
couldn't dance to it. We thoughtthis is probably not a hit single,
but the record company said we thinkit could go, and it did.
It went another one in England,which was very exciting at the time and
still is. Hey, Tim somethingI've always wanted to ask you, and

(06:54):
I don't think I've asked this beforebecause I've interviewed to you a number of
times, But you had this abilityto write beautiful songs as a man for
women. I don't know how tolove him someone else's story. That beautiful,
beautiful song you wrote for King Davidnever Again? How do you?
How do you do that? Well? I don't know, really, I

(07:16):
think in a funny way, Ithink it's you can often get a little
bit of accidental insight into somebody's thoughtsif you're not writing about yourself. I
find I don't like, and hadn'tvery often written songs about me. I
mean, I find a lot ofpop songs today seem to be all about
me, me, me and what'sgoing wrong with my life? And fair

(07:40):
enough because people have experiences to writeabout. But it can get a bit
boring and I'm almost a bit moaningsometimes, and I find it to try
and put yourself in somebody else's position, and you might see what's going on
in their minds better than they do. It's very hard to analyze your own
feelings, but I find it liberatingto be able to write about somebody who's

(08:03):
in a situation I've never been in. I mean, I'm not, you
know, a woman, so it'sit's something that I had to imagine.
But I do you know, Ilove women. They're great, and sometimes
I think I'm I might get itright. I'm always very glad that if
if, if if women say,well, actually, that's the kind of

(08:24):
thing I know about. I mean, I'm sure I get it wrong a
lot of times as well. AndI do write songs for bloats, obviously,
but the better ones seemed somehow tofor women, another suitcase in another
hall. I know, for theworld. They're all yeah, yeah,
yeah, they're all women. Imean then again, you of course you've
got songs for a wart hog withwind problems like Una macharg and I was

(08:50):
able to, I was able tofind easily to put myself into the situation
of a wart hog with wind problems. You know. I just went to
see The Lion King on Broadway becausethey're celebrating twenty five years, so I've
just experienced the show again. Itis really really wonderful, and um Circle
of Life is such a beautiful song. Can you tell me about working with

(09:11):
Elton John because he's so great too. So the two of you together,
that's quite a combo. Well Ellen, and tip tip Tim. We should
say that Christine is the host ofthe most popular music station here in New
York. So you've interviewed Elton acouple of times. I think, yeah,
yeah, he's yes, we lovelove love him, and we were
playing these songs on the air everymorning. Oh great Elton is of course

(09:35):
you know song Parrey, He's he'sfantastic, great man in every way,
not just musically. Um. AndI was very honored when he sometimes what
often says but has spent publicly thathe was very grateful to me for giving
him another string to his bow bygetting him getting his great, great music

(09:56):
into theater as much as it isinto rock um or or you know,
his his his natural brilliant stuff withwith with with with the great Bernie Taupin.
But I forgot what your question was. I mean, oh, I
think, well, yeah, justthe your your working relationship, your friendship.
He's just yeah, yeah, well, well I rang him up.

(10:20):
Um. When when I was workingon The Lion King with very few people
at Disney, it was still somethingthat wasn't definitely going to happen it was
two or four guys including me.I mean, I was quite lucky to
be part of the team. ButI was hanging around Disney saying have you
got a job, And they said, well, we're working on this new
new idea for an animated film.I mean they were going great guns with

(10:41):
a Laddin and Beauty and the Beastsand all that um. And it's and
it's about a lion, lion cubwhose wicked uncle kills his father. It's
like Hamlet with fur, I wastold. And so I was here on
the team very early on and oneof the first things they said to me
was who would you like to writethe music assuming the film happens. And
I suggested Elton, and I thoughtthey'll never get him, and indeed Elson

(11:05):
then rang me up. But Ihad written one song with Elton ten or
twelve years before that, which wason one of his albums, just a
nice album track, and so Iknew I knew him a little, and
he said, well, tell meabout this film idea. And he said,
well, if it's great, andI thank you for asking me,
but I don't think I can doit because I'm very busy. And I

(11:28):
thought, well, the deal's obviouslynot not not all that good. I
don't blame him anyway. Two dayslater, having thinking who else can I
get to write it, his managerrang up and said, right, where
do we start? And I thoughthe must have got a much better deal
than me, So so we thengot going. And then I found up.

(11:52):
I said, have you got anygood tunes lying around? Because all
composers, or at least seems tome, they all they all it's very
easy to shift the tune from oneshow to another. Um Because I mean
if if if say, the tuneof say Evita had been a flop,
I wouldn't have blamed Andrew if youput the tune of don't Cry for Me

(12:13):
Argentina into cats or something, butI would have I would have had trouble
putting the lyric of don't cry forMe Argentina into the line king it's,
you know, without a very majorchange of storyline, and it's it's I'd
assume that Elton, like most composers, would would would would have a few
great tunes knocking around, And hesaid, why should I don't? And

(12:35):
I said, well, if you'vegot any average tunes knocking around? Because
said, well, even an averageeven an average olt and tune would be
better than most people. And hesaid, no, no, no,
I had to get the lyric cursed. So I thought, oh god,
I've got to write the lyric first. This is going to be a new
a new aim for me, anew challenge. But it worked, and
it was a nice It was refreshing. It was quite a fun way to

(12:56):
do something having never really done itbefore. All right, Tim, we
have to let you go, butwe could talk to you all day long.
My last question for you when youwere growing up as a kid,
what were the songs the lyrics thatmeant the most to you, that maybe
inspired you in somebody to become asongwriter. Well, I think there was

(13:16):
an English lyric writer called Michael Founderswho was a comedian. Um, well,
he was very comedian, but he'sa very funny songwriter. I liked
his his his work. He paidon Broadway, Founders and Spun. And
then there was earlier early rock music. Early early rock music, big influence.
I didn't really realize it at thetime, but the stuff I liked

(13:39):
best. We had to have greatmusic. But Eddie Cochran, Buddy Holly,
Um the Elder Brothers, Chuck Berry, they all little Richard. I
mean, what blah blah blah bahongbamboo is actually a great lyric because it
holds your attention and it's sort ofit's just an expression of great joy.
And I also knew my pa Aren'salbum collection quite well, and the shows

(14:03):
that they had, like Michair Lady, West Side Story, Chad and West
Side Story was actually out there whenI was very young, Their Lady Rogers
and Hammerstein. The lyrics was sogood that I could identify with with with
the stories, even though I neversaw the show, at least not until
much much later. So there wereinfluences from theater, rock and roll,

(14:24):
and you know, people like MichaelFlanders. It was quite an eclectic canopy
of things. I liked. Wordswise and Gilbert and Sullivan, Oh yeah,
absolutely, yeah for for the wittiestwordplay on the planet, Gilbert and
Sullivan. Yeah, all right,thanks to him for your time. It's
always a pleasure to chat with youin Congratulations on getting the Johnny Mercer Award

(14:48):
at the Songwriters Hall of Fame.Congratulations, well, thank you, thank
you, Christie, thank you,Michael. It's very kind of you.
Thank you so much music. Allright. So, Michael, you mentioned
you've interviewed Tim Rice several times.Are you also friendly with him? Have
you worked with him? Yeah,I've not worked with him. I mean,
if only I might be in theretoday. But my tunes are not

(15:11):
as good as acton John's tunes.So well, someday, couple I said,
I said him, a couple oftunes I read. He said,
nah, this is not worthy ofa tim But I'll tell you a funny,
a great Tim Rice story. Hetold me this. I was hanging
out with him at US in Londonone day and I'm a big James Bond
fan, and I said to Tim, I said, you know there's a

(15:35):
Bond song. It's not as famousas Diamonds Are Forever Goldfinger, but it's
from the movie Octopusy and you wrotethe lyrics. It's called All Time High,
recorded by Rita Coolidge. And hesaid, oh, there's a funny
story behind that. And he said, you know, I got the call
from John Barry and John Barry saidI have good news and bad news.

(15:56):
Tim said, well, all right, give me the good news first.
And John said, they want youto write the new Bond tune with me
and then Tim said, okay,well, what's the bad news. He
said, well, the movie's calledOctopussy, and try working that into a
song. So they came up withall time high. But Tim said,

(16:17):
he said, you know, inretrospect, I wish I had written a
song called octopusy. I should havegone for it. I should have should
see what happens if I went forOctopussy. So well, we didn't ask
him. Is that what his mostcurrent work is? Right? What is
uh? If he's working on anythingnow? Uh? He Well, he's

(16:40):
got a revival that he's been workingon for a long time of a terrific
Well, it's a flawed musical,but the score is great called Chess,
which has the song One Night inBangkok. We love that song, yeah,
right right, and someone else's story, I mean beautiful you and not
beautiful beautiful music. He wrote itwith uh Benny Anderson, Bjorn Ulis the

(17:00):
Abba guys, and it was ahuge flop on Broadway, big, big
flop. But everybody always says oneof the great flop show, one of
the flop shows that has the greatestscore is Chess. It's a brilliant,
brilliant score. So he's been workingon that and putting that together for a
long time. And also, um, he was working for a while on

(17:23):
that's the one. Burt Lancaster,Deborah Carr. They're sleeping and from here
to work, From here to Eternity, From here to Eternity. Yes,
yes, he's been working on FromHere to Eternity for a long time.
And I saw a workshop of itin New York and I thought it was
it was really quite good. He'shad some productions and I guess they haven't
just quite found the right director.But but this the score is lovely and

(17:45):
his lyrics are very very good.I'm going to switch gears a little bit.
Did you watch The Tony's the othernight? I did? I did.
I did my question to you whovotes? Who are Who are the
people who vote for the Tony's?The producers who are members of the League
of American Theaters, so a lotof producers vote union people. So there

(18:08):
are voters from the Stage Hands Union, the Musicians Union, Actors Equity,
and then the American Theater Wing,which is a co producer of the Tonys
because they actually controlled the copyright tothe tony their people vote as well.
So you have about eight hundred orso voters. Wow. And also I
was watching an interview with Andrew LloydWebber and he touched upon something that you've

(18:30):
spoken about. He's concerned about Broadwaybeing able to sustain because he said,
in order, you know, toafford the rent to put up these shows,
they have to charge so much fora ticket. Then who's able to
buy that ticket and who were goingto these shows? And so so yeah,
it's a it's a tough spot rightnow, it seems. You know.

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I was in touch with Andrew beforethat interview, and I said,
I hope you make that point,because the costs are out of control on
Broadway. And by the way,you know, before COVID, when the
city was booming, they thought theycould charge everything, you know, Hamilton
a thousand bucks, this new showtwelve hundred bucks. And they were getting
away with it because everybody in theworld was coming to New York City and

(19:15):
so they were paying these huge pricesfor tickets and so they thought, Okay,
well, it's going to last thisway forever and ever and ever.
Well you know what COVID hit,and it's not to entice people back.
You have to offer a normal ticketprice, a price that people can afford.
But your cost structure is based onpre COVID conditions of a thousand dollars

(19:36):
a ticket, and that is aserious problem for the business. I don't
know how to fix that right now. You know, you and I should
be union negotiators because that's what's goingto be fixed. All right, let's
go in, let's go in andtalk. But yeah, it's really really
interesting and I'm glad to get theinside scoop from you, Michael Rido.
Thank you. All right, Thatdoes it for us. Christine and me

(20:00):
join us next time on Inside Broadway. We'll talk to you soon. Take
care soon. Blah bah