Bracewell Senior Principal - Frank Maisano

Bracewell Senior Principal, Frank Maisano, joins Robert Rapier on the show this week.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the nationally syndicated Energy Mix radio show produced
by the Energy Network Media Group. The Energy Mix Radio
show will give you an inside look at the energy
industry and how it affects you by talking with industry leaders, experts,
and government officials on the Energy Mix Radio Show.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to the Energy Mix.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
I'm Robert Gray, Pire, editor in chief of Shale Magazine.
Today's guest is Frank Massano, who is an energy expert
at brace Well and adjunct professor at the George Washington
University School of Media and Public Affairs. Frank served as
a top communications advisor for multiple representatives on Capitol Hill.
He has a deep background on energy and environmental issues,

(00:39):
and his weekly energy update is considered a must read
by journalists, policymakers, and lobbyists across the country.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Frank, Welcome to this week's show.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
That's my pleasure to be here. Thanks.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's so energy policy is real passion mine, so I'm
really looking forward to this discussion.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
First, for those listeners.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Who may not know you, could you take a minute
and give us some information about your background.

Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah. Thanks, I've been working at Bracewell now for nearly
twenty five years in that time. Bracewell's obviously Texas based
law firm that has a lobbying and strategic affairs component
to it. Here in the Washington office where I am,
and you know, we have worked on every imaginable energy
issue that you can work on over the years, from

(01:23):
you know, back in the days working with utilities on
new source review and issues like that, through MTBE and
oil and gas all the way up to you know,
in two thousand and five, I started working on wind
turbine projects because they were having tons of problems citing
wind turbine projects in the Mid Atlantic, right, So we've
worked on that, We've worked on manufacturing issues, we work

(01:45):
on hydrogen. So we're very involved across the spectrum from
cement to oil and gas, to renewables to offshore wind
and you know, we have a little hand and all
of that stuff working for all those folks. That is
important because what we've seen over the years is it
gives us a little bit more historical perspective, you know

(02:08):
on some of the energy issues that we face. The
energy issues are so of the moment a lot of times, right,
and people who are new to the issues or are
working on them, or a reporter who has transferred into
those issues. A lot of times they are just doing
it for the first time. And so sometimes having that
and you know this, sometimes having this historical perspective is

(02:31):
that we've been down this road before, and we've seen
it ten years ago, or or for instance, where we
were with utilities in two thousand and five versus where
they are in their renewable mix today. It's almost amazing
at how much change that there's been in some of
these issues. So all of that perspective is valuable, I think,
and it just gives us a chance to really have

(02:51):
a true understanding of the policy issues.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
You put out an energy update, if someone wants to
get on your mailing list or get your updates, how
can they find.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, you know, we have about ten thousand people who
are on the list. It started in maybe nineteen ninety
nine or so as UH just something to keep UH
the reporters informed on, and over the years has just
grown into a behemoth that is kind of like a
precursor for all the tip sheets that many of us

(03:21):
read today from Axios and from UH, from Politico and
other and other you know, energy related tip sheets. So
but but you know, they can find me on at
Bracewell's website and pretty easy search for me on my
Massano m A I S A n O is how
you spell it, Frank Massano. And I also have a

(03:44):
sub stack which I uh, which I also publish it on,
but we can send it to you directly through your email. So,
and that list is it's in anybody who wants to
be on it, right, it's a We have environmentalists on
that list. We have policymakers and hill staff, we have
industry folks, we have foundation people. Anybody who's working on

(04:05):
energy policy to usually find it pretty interesting and fun.
I try to make it fun. I'm a college sports
official in my free time, and so I talk a
lot of my kids were college athletes when they when
they played sports, and so we you know, kind of
try to keep it fun and light and talk a
little bit about politics and a little bit about sports

(04:25):
along the way, and that this really kind of gets
everybody into the energy what's happening that week, and you know,
it's a good way to keep up. So but yeah,
you can get there. You can get you can find
me at bracewell, and you can find me on substack.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
All right, thank you. Let let's talk about the presidential debate.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
As we're recording this, we're just a couple of days
removed from the presidential debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris.
You have a good feel for the pulse of the
oil and gas industry, and you know what they were
expecting from Kamala Harris.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean, we've seen Trump. We kind of know what
to expect there.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Do you think they got what they were looking for
from that debate?

Speaker 4 (05:03):
Wow, it's really hard to say, you know. I mean,
I don't think we really have seen the real Kamala
Harris yet. And that's the that's the thing that I
think has the oil and gas industry, the energy industry
in general, probably a little bits concerned. Right. We do
know that she was against fracking, and you know, I

(05:25):
always look at fracking and the Keystone pipeline and uh,
you know, these big ticket items as symbols, right there
are symbols of being for or against growth in the
energy industry or production increased production in the energy industry.
And so you know, whether Keystone pipeline or whether fracking

(05:46):
can really be eliminated or if it would have really
mattered that's not really the point. The point is it's
a symbol for the position that that that candidate is taking.
And I think, you know, her her positions on the
Green New Deal and her position on forracking in the
twenty nineteen presidential primary, we're illustrative to where she was

(06:09):
at the time. Now, you know, that's a long time ago,
and she served four years as vice president, and I
don't think I do think that that experience certainly probably
has impacts on her, right, you know, in working with
President Biden, who you know, who had a little bit
of a different take on some of these issues. But

(06:30):
you know, again, I don't think we really know where
she stands yet. He hasn't really truly been clear as
to what she might do. And I think, you know,
we're sixty days before, fifty five days before an election,
and it's a lot of times hard to really believe
what people are for fifty five days before an election.
Where they stand fifty five days after the election or

(06:51):
is probably or fifty five days after the inauguration, I
should say, is probably probably more indicative of where they're
going to be. One indicator that I would that I
would point to that seems to be interesting to me.
Environmentalists are taking a pass on pressuring her. We saw

(07:12):
before she was in the race with Joe Biden, environmentalists
leaning heavily on President Biden, dissatisfied in fact with Joe Biden,
who had done a lot for them really in terms
of climate jobs, in terms of putting climate change as
an all of government type of approach. He's really done
more than many than any really president has ever done

(07:34):
before with relation to climate change, and yet he was
getting little or no credit for a lot of that stuff.
It just wasn't enough. It was no good deed goes
unpunished for that environmentalists often impose on people. But immediately
after the debate performance in June and the three weeks
or four weeks or five weeks later when she was

(07:56):
switched onto the ticket, there has been such massive enthusiasm
among climate activists and among youth activists, who are a
lot this a lot a large group of the same people. Right,
youth activists in essence are climate activists. For the most part,
there's been they've really given her a pass right on

(08:16):
this issue. They haven't challenged her on her change, her
flip flop on fracking and they haven't pressured her on
supporting the Green New Deal or anything else like that,
where you know, where that was a you know, a
constant thorn in the side of their of their relationship
with Joe Biden. So I think that, you know, the

(08:36):
take on that is that they probably think she's probably
easily or more easily pulled back to where she was previously.
You know, she has said she has said she hasn't
changed her values. You know. Now that's kind of a
ubiquitous statement as it is, but you know, that can
be read as saying, you know, she still believes many

(08:59):
of those things she believed in twenty fifteen. And you know,
I mean it is as much as a local climate
activist who is well known tweeted on X the other
send a note on X the other day that said,
forget about franking. The most important Harris policy right now
is getting elected, right and so, and you know we

(09:20):
can talk to her after the election, right. So I
think that kind of says where they are right, they've
kind of taken They see the youth in Harris versus Biden,
they see the opportunity versus Biden, where you know, she
has expressed these positions in the past. They're giving her
space to go after the Blue Wall states, you know,

(09:42):
the Roust Belt states that are so vital and not
really inclined to the climate argument with the Union rank
and file, and so I think you're seeing a lot
of space that she's getting, and I think you're going
to see that continue for the next couple of months
so that she can try and win in some of
those states and get that vote from the Union rank

(10:03):
and file that Trump has been relatively successful at getting
that not a lot of other Republican candidates have. So
I think that's kind of where it started, that's kind
of where she is. That kind of came through in
the debate. She wasn't clear there was a climate question
at the end of the debate, and of course, eighty
seven minutes into the debate we got the climate question,
which is actually kind of appropriate because these issues just

(10:27):
don't resonate on the list of issues that people really
are concerned with at this time, especially with the economy
and inflation being high. So you know that we got
the climate question eighty seven minutes into the debate, and
you know, frankly, the answers were on her. She let
off with it. They were soft, and she of course

(10:48):
then provoked him, and he never mentioned climate or energy
once in his answer. He railed on something else. So
you know, so look, I think the debate is illustrative
of a larger argument about the economy and politics. Why
Trump didn't go more into the economy and inflation and

(11:10):
its impacts on energy, I don't know. I mean, if
I was one of his advisers, I would have set that.
But you know, she clearly dictated the pace of that debate,
and I think that benefited her a lot in bailing
her out of really being pressured on where she stands
on a lot of energy issues. So there's a long
way of answering your question. But the reality is, I

(11:31):
think the jury is still out. In the industry, I
think they're concerned. I think they would be a lot
happier if she would have accept if she would accept
their invitation for a meeting just to kind of, you know,
get in the room and you know, say what each
aside's positions are. And Mike Summers, president of API, CEO
of ABI has asked for that meeting, and so we'll

(11:53):
see if it happens.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
All Right, I've said the second of the same thing.
I think she's going to punt to Biden's policies. But
we don't have a lot to go on and we
need to take a break. But after the break, I
want to talk about a headline this morning from GP
poster Frank Luntz.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
You probably saw that. If you didn't, I'll talk about it,
and then I want.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
To hear from you how what you think is going
to happen if Kamala does win the election. So with that,
I'm Robert ray Peer on the Energy Mix and we
will be right back after the break.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
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Speaker 3 (13:06):
Welcome back to the Energy Mixed Radio show. I'm Robert
ray Pierre with this week's guest, Frank Masano.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
So, Frank, I don't know if.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
You've seen the headline today, GUIP poster Frank Luntz came
out and said, I'm going to go on the record
and say the debate is going to cost Trump the election.
I'm curious about your thoughts about I know we don't
have a good idea of which way Kamala Harris, if
she's elected, is going to go.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
But what do you think? What do you think is
going to happen?

Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah, I saw a Lunz's comments. I don't know that
I believe him. I think a lot of the Trump
I mean, look, this is I keep asking myself what
is different from where we were in twenty sixteen, right
in terms of what Trump says? And you know how
he does in the debate, as I recall, he didn't
do very well in the debate against Hillary Clinton either, right,

(13:54):
and so because that's just how he is, right, he
doesn't prepare for these things like normal Paulpitians do. She
clearly prepared and dictated the pace of the debate, as
I said, and I think you know that really was
valuable for her. She needed to do that, right, She
really needed to do that because she hasn't done interviews
at all. People were questioning her in back to the

(14:16):
when she did a softball interview on CNN. It didn't
go over very well. And you know, I don't know
why she's not doing that. She's capable, so I wouldn't
have let it get that far. But so she needed
to perform well and she clearly did, and so that
was valuable. Trump, on the other hand, was she You know,
he was his typical Trump self, and I do think

(14:36):
a lot of that is baked, and so I guess
I would believe Lunce a little bit in that what
the positives that Harris took out of the bait were
things she needed to do. I still think she's running
uphill a little bit because of some of the economic
and inflation related issues that she's inevitably being tied to,

(14:58):
even as she's a new candidate this race. Certainly the
energy that they bring that she's brought to the Democratic
activist base is valuable and it will have a huge
impact down the road. I think the debate that probably
may have cost Trump this election if he is to lose,
though is the June twenty eighth debate against Joe Biden,

(15:19):
which was early, and he probably shouldn't have agreed to
that debate because if that debate happened on September tenth, yes,
on Tuesday, this race would have clearly been over. And
I think he's going to, probably if he loses, look
back on that as a fatal strategic mistake that he made,
taking the early debate with Biden. That gave the Democrats

(15:43):
time to make a change, if you know, if they
had to break glass in case of emergency, which inevitably
they had to in this instance. I don't think anybody
thought that Joe Biden was going to have to, you know,
that the Democrats were going to have to break glass
in case of emergency. I can't imagine that there's that
slim possibility that he would fall down like he and

(16:04):
he ended up falling down like he did. So so
I think that's the strategic blunder that that you may
look at, look that we may look back on and say,
why did he do that early to debate, But you know,
clearly he did not perform as well as he should,
and partly not because of of uh, you know, of
his the MIC's being off or anything like that, just

(16:25):
because he he was he let her dictate the direction
and didn't come back into key areas where he's much stronger. So,
you know, so in the end, I don't know what
it's going to be. Look, her biggest problem is union
rank and file. Union rank and file are not our
our fickle group. And that's key in states like Michigan

(16:46):
and in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, especially western Pennsylvania. Right now,
she's you know, checking boxes and doing what she has
to do to maintain the kind of support that Biden
got in those places in twenty twenty verses what Hillary
Clinton didn't get in twenty sixteen. So we'll see if
it pans out, We'll see how they vote. There's still

(17:08):
the long way to go. I still think people want
to know more about her, and you know, I just
don't think people are sold in some of these more
places where where moderates are a little bit more play
a bigger role. I mean, look, forty percent of the people,
forty five percent of the people think Trump is great.
Forty five percent of the people are on board with

(17:29):
Harris all the way. So there's that sliver in the
middle right and that sliver in the middle of ten
percent of independence. They are going to be the deciders here,
and you know a lot of those people in those
seven states are So it's a slim group of those
people in those seven states that's going to make the difference.
And you know, right now, I'd say Kamala Harris is

(17:51):
doing what she has to do to try and get
to him. And you know it's going to be on
Trump and Trump's advertising and Trump's team, and it's surrogate
to push back, and you know, I don't know that
they've been able to do it quite successfully yet. As
for where she goes when she takes office, I mean,
that's a bridge we'll have to cross when we get there,
right I think I don't think anyone can say right

(18:14):
now what she's going to do, or where she's going
to go, or how she's going to be. You can
only lean on where she was in the past, the
things she's done in the past, you know, And it's
it's not been one that's been welcoming to oil and
gas industry, but that doesn't mean that it won't be.
I mean, look, the consumer drives a lot of oil
and gas politics. You know that's the fact that's our

(18:38):
energy reality drives a lot of those politics, and I
think that's something that got in the way of Biden's,
the Biden Administration's efforts to try and you know, limit
oil and gas development and and please environmentalists. The Biden
administration walked a very fine line, right, not very well,
I might add, They walked a very fine line on

(18:59):
trying to you know, placate environmentalists while understanding where consumers
were and what the energy reality in our country was.
And that's why you saw energy production in the short
term going up to its highest levels ever coming out
of COVID, right, And once we came out of COVID,
people were clamoring for more oil and gas and gasoline,

(19:20):
and so those issues I think will weigh on her.
The question is are we going to be in similar
situations down the road? And you know that'll dictate I
think a lot of that energy reality will dictate where
she has to be, regardless of the policy she wants
to impose.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
So that's a good segue into the next segment. We
need to take a break, but I want to ask you,
I want to pivot from where you think she'll go
to where she should go and what some of the
biggest priorities should be.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
So let's take a quick break. I'm Robert Raypuil, and
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Speaker 3 (21:30):
Welcome back to the Energy Mixed radio Show. I'm Robert
ray Pierre with this week's guest, Frank Masano. Before the break,
we were talking about what you think Kamala Harrison might do,
and I think we both aren't sure. So let's pivot
to what you think she should do. I mean, what
do you see as the biggest energy policy and climate

(21:51):
change initiatives? What's on your plate? What are you trying
to pass? What are you trying to see?

Speaker 4 (21:55):
Yeah, let me break that up into two categories. First,
let me start with what she probably can't do. Right.
The reality is she's going to have to have oil
and gas involved in what we do going forward with
data centers and the electricity demand, natural gas is going
to have to play an important role. There's just no
doubt about that. That's an energy reality. Consumers are going

(22:18):
to want to drive more, and even with an expansion
of the ev pool, we still have a huge amount
of our commercial fleets that are all on diesel and
and and liquid fuels. So we're going to have to
continue to have that, and that means we're going to
have to produce right. That's been a huge national security
boom for US. It's been a huge opportunity for us

(22:40):
with our allies to protect them and help them in
their fight with Ukraine, in supporting Ukraine and and and
against Russian sanctions, to be able to provide them with
LNG and and and and other oil and gas assets
that you know that they need to to keep their
economies running. So that's an important piece that of the

(23:01):
energy reality we have that she's going to have to
have some consistency on. And then Biden administration did not
do a very good job on that, but they're going
to need to be that's going to have to be
consistent because we're going to have you know, doing what
we're doing right now is driven a lot by consumers.
But five years out we need to have planning done right,

(23:21):
five year plans, leasing in advance. And so far, you know,
Congress has forced them to follow, and the courts have
forced them to follow leasing issues when they try to
cut that out. So I think that's one important piece
that she's going to have to do on the that
they may try to back off on. And I don't
think she'll be able to. On the positive side of

(23:42):
what she can do on clean energy and things like that,
is she can do more of what we've already started. Right,
we have a huge, massive effort underway on hydrogen hubs
in this country, and hydrogen hubs are going to be
a driver for the new hydrogen economy. And you know
we always said, well hydrogen, what's different about it now
them ten years ago? Right? Well, I think the reality

(24:02):
is now you're getting private public partnerships, you're getting communities involved,
you're getting a legacy incumbent utility, gas and oil and
stakeholders involved. So I mean, look, the reality is hydrogen
across the board can be a game changer in some

(24:22):
places where we aren't decarbonizing fast enough or where we
won't be able to decarbonize. So I think being positive
there is a huge factor in driving forward with the
Doees plan to try and push this into the local
communities that where it can be successful. And hydrogen hubs
in Texas and in West Virginia and Pennsylvania and in

(24:45):
the Upper Midwest, and the one in California angels Link,
which is a great place for you know, for us
to start doing things where we're decarbonizing things that are
hard to decarbonize. I think secondly, you know, we can
continue to work on sustainable aviation fuel. Right there's a
big piece of our emissions that come from global airline travel.

(25:06):
And one of the realities of airline travel is we
will do it because we have to, right, And how
do you get decarbonization of that industry. You're not going
to have hydrogen planes, you're not going to have electric
airplanes for the most part. How do you decarbonize. You
have to decarbonize through the jet fuel, right, and that
means ethanol, and that means ethanol to jet jet fuel,

(25:29):
and that market has to grow immensely. So I think
there's real positives that can happen there that are already
underway in many places in the Midwest. It's actually a
really it's a good opportunity for ethanol versus trying to
fight out with refiners as they have been the last
twenty years. I much prefer them in the jet fuel

(25:49):
market where where we can have some success. And if
you compare it with smartag initiatives like people are doing
like Gevo in the Upper Midwest, if you use it
with sequestration, and just today Jievo, now another Jievo announced
a purchase of an ethanol plant that has sequestration attached

(26:10):
to it, you lower the c I score to where
it's really effective. So I think those are a couple
of positive things that she can drive forward on. I think,
you know, she'll have to guard against some of those
limiting those energy realities as she goes forward, and those
are going to be the things that on are played first.
The last thing I'll tell you is she's going to
face pressure from activists. There's no doubt about that. And

(26:33):
so you know how she how she handles that pressure
and whether she says, hey, we just can't do that,
or whether she tries to go their way. That's going
to be an indicator of where she's going to be
in the early part of her administration if she was
to win. So that would be the thing that I
focus on, both the things that we have to have

(26:53):
and the things that we can have, and then how
she bucks to the pressure of an activist group who
it feels like probably that she owes them because they
backed off her, right, I mean, I can, I can.
I've been around long enough to know that they're gonna
they're gonna come and cash that in right. Uh, and
it's probably going to be early that they do it.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
We need to take a quick break.

Speaker 4 (27:15):
Right there.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
After the break, I want to ask you about your
thoughts on the Inflation Reduction Act and how it has
impacted things and what you think was right.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
And wrong about that.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
We're back.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
I am Robert ray Pier on the Energy Mix Radio Show.
Welcome back to the Energy Mix Radio Show. I'm Robert
ray Pierre with this week's guest, Frank Masano. Frank, I
wanted to ask you about your thoughts on one of
Biden's signature pieces of legislation, which was the Inflation Reduction Act.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
What do you think has.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Been the impact on the energy sector and climate policy,
and what do you expect going forward and what was.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Wrong with it?

Speaker 4 (27:56):
Yeah, look, let me first of all, let me start
with what I thought was even more important than the
Energy and then the Inflation Reduction Act, And that was
the energy legislation that was passed as part of the
year end deal in twenty twenty when Trump was on
his way out and Biden was on his way in.
And that at the time was the most significant energy legislation,

(28:16):
climate legislation that we'd ever seen. And mostly it was
a bipartisan approach that tackled refrigerants and the climate reduction
that comes from lowering refrigerants. It had nuclear in it
had carbon capture and storage, and tax credits, had all
those things in it all right, And that was passed

(28:37):
and supported by a bipartisan group that set the table
for the type of bipartisan legislation that you could probably
see going forward.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
Right.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
It's also the precursor for what were the energy provisions
in the IRA. Right. The IRA was just a broader
expansion of that type of approach. Now, people say, oh, yeah,
but no Republicans reported the IRA. Well, I'm telling you,
if the IRA was not in that budget reconciliation process

(29:07):
and didn't have all the healthcare and all the tax provisions,
all the other things that were in there. You would
have seen a law. You would have seen a significant
number of Republicans supporting that energy policy in the IRA
because it was Joe Mansion negotiated energy policy. And if
you know anything about Joe Manchin, and I know you do,

(29:27):
he negotiates more like a Republican on energy policy, like
a mainstream Republican on energy policy, than he does any
kind of Democrats. Right. So, look, this is the way
we have done energy policy over the years. Tax credits
that drive technology, that promote innovation, that create private public
partnerships in communities and communities engaged, right and use that

(29:52):
loan guarantee money and use the blown Program office to
drive new technologies that maybe are a little too risky, right.
I mean, look, I worked on the Ivenpas solar project
in just in California and California Nevada border. That was
a huge loan guarantee project. It was controversial, it got

(30:13):
a lot of pressure from Republicans. In the end it
ended up being a huge success, right, and it's paying
back it's loan guarantee now and cranking power into the
grid in California, that much needed power into the grid.
So you know, if you look over the long haul,
these programs tend to be successful because their carrots not sticks, right,
and that's how we've always done energy policy. So individually,

(30:36):
if you look at the IRA, you see a lot
of those things inside that type of policy. I think
that's why it's been successful. Of course, it takes time
to get cranked up, right, and we've just started to
see a crank up it's been two years now. We're
starting to see some of the benefits of that through
grants coming out through transmission projects, to the hydrogen hubs

(30:58):
program that I mentioned earlier, tax credit provisions being set
for clean energy manufacturing, and you're seeing successes right. You're
seeing real jobs going into real parts of the country
where these clean energy opportunities are happening. Microchip development in
Washington State with a company called Nanotech Seal a nanotech right,

(31:22):
and they're producing microchips that we're using in batteries in cathodes.
You know, these are all success stories that are just
starting to blossom right now. So look, is it a
lot of spending and is it a lot of Yes,
is there a lot of Republicans? And I wouldn't say

(31:43):
a lot, But isn't there a segment of Republicans who
don't want to spend any of that and don't think
it's worth it because they don't think global warming is
a big problem. Yes, there is, but I think for
the most part, people recognize that climate is a challenge.
Climate is something that we're going to do, but it's
going to be driven through technology advances. It's going to
be driven through innovation. And we're set and here's another

(32:04):
piece of Robert that's important. We're setting a standard for
the globe in a climate policy that is reasonable and
forward looking. Right, we've had these climate change meetings every
year at the end of the year for twenty nine sessions,
and every year it's a lot of talk and very
little action. Well, finally the US is starting. The US

(32:26):
set the table and started action right with the bill
in twenty twenty that I mentioned and the IRA And
we're setting a standard for how this can be done.
And we're seeing some success in terms of emissions reductions
and clean energy jobs and the clean energy development and
so you know, look notice what happened when we passed

(32:47):
the IRA. The first thing that the Europeans did was
complain that it was a protectionist bill, and then they
went and past their own IRA right after that. Right, So,
if flattery is copying is the best form of flattery,
then you know, other places are starting to follow our
lead on that front, and it helps us in these
international meetings as well. So I do think that there

(33:11):
will be some revisions. If Republicans take over, they will
probably find things that they don't like. I don't know
exactly what those things are. I'm sure you know, everyone
has favorites and pet and pet projects and things like that,
but at everyone's pet project is somebody else's flawed projects,
So you know, so this will be fought out in Congress.

(33:31):
I just don't think there's going to be a lot
of support for rolling back the whole thing, because so
much of the support, so much of the project, so
much of the money, so much of the opportunities and
jobs and economic development are happening in Republican districts in
the country that it's going to be I'm hard pressed
as a person who's been in Washington for twenty five

(33:54):
years and worked in Congress for those years too. I'm
hard pressed to see how the political machine moves backwards
on this, just because it's been such an opportunity for
you know, constituent opportunity.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
So we've only got about a minute left in this segment,
so I can't dive deeply into this question. I think
we'll roll into the next segment with this, but I
wanted to ask, as Biden's term comes to an end,
what you think he got right and what you think
he got wrong. And then the other topic I want
to get into after the break is, you know, the
oil and gas industry is booming. We're setting record oil production,

(34:30):
record gas production as the shale revolution has been going
on for twenty years continues to roll, and I want
to ask about what the industry's poorities are to keep
that train moving.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
So we'll get into that after the break.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
We'll right back.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
I am robber Ray Pier on the Energy Mix radio show.

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Speaker 2 (35:58):
Welcome back.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
I'm Robert Peer on the Energy Mixed Radio show with
this week's guest, Frank Mazzano. Frank, before the break, I
talked about Biden coming to the end of his terms.
I was wondering how he has done on energy and
climate policy, what did he get right and what did
he get wrong.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
Well, look, I think it's important to that he set
the table right. He's created opportunities for us to be
leaders in the global marketplace on innovation. He's created an
opportunity for us to you know, help our allies and
create new opportunities for a production here. Of course, the

(36:36):
consumers have driven a lot of that, but you know,
he's allowed that to happen. And part of that is
because we've recovered from COVID. I mean, look, I think
the reality is he He's created in an environment where
we've been able to succeed in the short term. I
think the flaw in that this administration has undertaken is
that it has been certainly inconsistent. Right, It's that uncertainty

(36:59):
that they've created over the longer term with leases and
with with the five year Plan, and with regulatory burdens
that they lay on people. In fact, like, for instance,
the best example I can think of is the rice
as whale right where they they said, oh, there was
a rice as whale in the golf somewhere, let's shut

(37:20):
down the entire golf, right. I mean, look that that
that's environmentalists at play, and that doesn't help the overall picture.
And that doesn't help us get where we want to go,
and it doesn't help us meet consumers demands. So you know,
the reality is many times that he has succeeded in
creating a good environment for technology to participate. I don't

(37:42):
like that environmentalists continue to attack the industry for for
pushing innovation and you know, new technologies that will help
us change the way we use energy, right. I think
that's an important part of how we get there. But
his real flaw has been this trying to placate those
environmentalists all the while that with with things that have
hurt us in the long term, right and created uncertainty

(38:04):
for the industry. If there is anything the industry wants,
it's more certainty on where we're going to stand with
regulatory policy, with drilling, with production opportunities on public lands
and in the golf. You know, we need to have
that certainty so that we can plan over the long
haul to meet consumers demands, to meet commercial demand, right,

(38:25):
to make sure that goods and services continue to flow.
I mean, all those things are the weakness that that
he's had in trying to walk that fine line between
environmental activists who have pressured him immensely, and and where
our energy reality is and what consumers demand, and so
I think that's been a problem that that's where the
energy industry I think makes the strongest case, right, whether

(38:48):
it's through lawsuits, whether it's through legislation, whether it's through
pushing you know, support of Joe Manchin and others who
have who have been demanding that we get more transmission,
more pipelines. These are the real challenges, and we need
to focus on the things that are the challenges. Right.
The challenges are infrastructure. The challenges are you having that

(39:09):
infrastructure available sooner? That means permitting reform. Right. So these
are the things that we have to continue to talk
about as we go into the next session, not just
with the administration, but with Congress as well. Right, I
mean creating infrastructure opportunities and allowing permit reform not just
to build a pipeline, but to build the transmission lines

(39:30):
and the renewable projects that we'll I mean, look, there's
a reason that all the industries are on the same
page on permitting reform, because it's just as hard to
build a wind project or an offshore wind project or
a solar project as it is to build the Mountain
Valley pipeline right, And I will tell you for every
one Mountain Valley pipeline that's going to be improved by

(39:52):
permitting reform, you're going to have ten or fifteen renewable
projects that environmentalists would want to have in there to
help drive our energy transition full So, if you're going
to have an energy transition, you have to have infrastructure
that supports it. You have to have permitting reform that
supports the infrastructure build out, and it has to happen
sooner rather than later. And that's a really important piece

(40:12):
of where we go and where and where the oil
and gas industry and the electricity industry and the renewable industry,
all of them are going to try and play a
role in that a positive role in that environment.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
So do you think beyond permitting, I think that's probably
the biggest regulatory challenge. I agree with you. I had
this conversation, yes, straight over those whales in the Gulf
and over you know, uncertainty of energy policy. You know,
that's a that's a big problem when administration after administration
changes energy policy. But beyond that, are there things we
should be looking at that we are things that the
oil industry maybe you know, would help us move forward,

(40:47):
but maybe not quite at the forefront.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
Well. Again, you know, the oil industry is a victim
of meeting demand, right, so they have to do what
consumers want them to do and provide the products that
consumers demand that they that they have. Anything that gets
in the way of meeting that demand from consumers is
always going to be met with with some opposition from
the industries that support you know, whether it's data center

(41:10):
and demand and consumer demand for electricity, or whether it's
oil and gas demand for motor fuels or things like that.
That is always going to be the significant challenge that
also sets the table for the energy reality that I
spoke of that is sometimes hard to counter when environmentalists
and others start to put pressure on people to do less. Right,

(41:32):
keep more fossil fuels in the ground, keep more, keep
keep that out of my backyard.

Speaker 5 (41:37):
Right.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
This isn't just a fossil fuel issue, right, This is
this is an issue that impacts building renewable projects too
in places where people just don't want to see them, right.
And that's something that I've experienced firsthand as I've tried
to help build out both renewables and pipelines and other
things as part of what I do with industry. So,
you know, I think the other thing that's important too

(41:59):
is we have to be interested in all duels. We
have to be interested in hydrogen that's made from renewable
natural gas. We have to be interested in hydrogen that's
made from electrolyzers. We have to be interested in small
modular reactors and trying to do another Vogel if we
can do another Vogel right in nuclear because that's clean
energy that is dispatchable. Right, So you know, we have

(42:23):
to understand that this is going to be a basket
that is filled with a bunch of different technologies, a
bunch of those different technologies that we don't rely too
much on one or the other. The same goes for vehicles, right,
I mean, I think electric vehicles expanding to a certain
extent is good, right, but that it's never going to
overrun the internal combustion engine. It's just not going to.

(42:47):
And then when you look at it's role in trucking,
hydrogen has to play a role in long haul trucking
and ports and short haul trucking for heavy duty. So
you know that can be a big chang or a
big game changer. I think we have to realize that
and we have to continue to push forward and the
industries are going to support that type of approach.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Well, Frank, I really appreciate you this week. It's always
a good show when I run out of the time
before I run out of question so I got a
third of the questions that I had for you, but
I think we covered the meat there. I really appreciate
having you on. That's all the time we have this week.
I'd love to have you back sometime. I'm Robert Rapuerre
on the Energy Mix with this week's guest, Frank Masano.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
We will see you next time.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
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