The President & CEO Of Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association - Frank Wolak

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the nationally syndicated Energy Mix radio show produced
by the Energy Network Media Group. The Energy Mixed Radio
Show will give you an inside look at the energy
industry and how it affects you by talking with industry leaders, experts,
and government officials on the Energy Mix Radio Show.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Joining me today is Frank Warwack, President and CEO of
the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association. It is the
leading US industry association representing companies and organization advancing the production, distribution,
and use of clean, safe, and reliable hydrogen energy and
fuel cell technology. Frank brings over thirty years of energy

(00:39):
sector experience, including leadership roles in oil refining, fuel cell development,
and energy policy. Frank, also, you were a senior vice
president at fuel Sell Energy and has served on multiple
advisory committees, to include an appointment by the US Secretary
of Commerce. Frank, Welcome to the Energy Mixed Radio Show.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Well, thank you, Kim.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Rank. Tell me a little bit about your association, the
Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association. What's its mission, sure, Kim?

Speaker 4 (01:11):
Well, the mission of the Fuel Cell and hydroden Energy
Association or FCCHA, for sure, is to advance the commercial
production distribution and use of hydrogen in the United States
and beyond. We have been an industry trade association for

(01:32):
almost thirty five years now. We celebrate our thirty five
anniversary this year. And you know, as you mentioned, we
are the industry association in the United States with one
hundred members and partners that cover the entire spectrum of production, distribution,
and use of hydrogen. A very diverse industry mix with
everything from energy energy producers, automotive companies, industrial gas companies,

(02:00):
manufacturers of all types, and those who want to see
hydrogen be used as a as a resource and fuel
here in the United States. And we have been advocating
in Washington and also take some of our messaging out
to state areas where it's important to hear what hydrogen
can do regionally.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, that's interesting because I want to get your thoughts
on the previous administration had a lot of federal funding
towards the development of hydrogen, and we saw a lot
of companies permitting, wanting to permit, wanting to get into
the business of hydrogen. And since for President Trump has

(02:41):
now been elected to office, things have somewhat changed. And
I don't want to seem like a negative, Nelly, that's
not what this is about. I'm hoping that you can
give us an update where is hydrogen now between these
two administrations, and then we'll move into the question of
hydrogen as well.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
Well, I think it's important to set of index that
that much of the recent you know, uplift in funding
and imaging of hydrogen occurred during the Biden administration, But
the origins of a lot of the development of hydrogen
in the United States go back literally twenty years ago
to the Energy Policy Act of two two thousand and five,

(03:21):
which was then President George Bush who created the Hydrogen
Technologies Office in the Department of Energy and saw some
of the merits of hydrogen and that actually spurred a
great deal of then research and development. So over the
over those twenty years, there was was you know, considerable
effort by companies to look at nurturing American technologies, having demonstrations,

(03:46):
getting to their sort of first editions, and then all
of that really came to fruition, you know, coincidentally around
the time of the IRA.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
And while we often talk about you know, the.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
Hydrogen efforts kind of being incubated within the IRA, the
fact is that they were really ready to be uh,
you know, moved forward regardless of what administration was in place.
And so what we've had is is certainly the Biden
administration is part of the IRA, added many features to
advance US competitiveness and hydrogen stimulate markets. And now we

(04:24):
are in a place here with the Trump administration, you know,
would like to do it has adjusted many of the
features of the IRA, but you know, to our pleasure,
many of the elements of the hydrogen side of the IRA,
which which were unique onto themselves, remained in place. And
that many Republicans as well as Democrats, have always seen

(04:47):
the merits of hydrogen, and we were very pleased that
in the the recent one Big Beautiful Bill Act that
many of the elements of hydrogen that were as I said,
incubated and of the IRA, we're actually uh sustained by
the by the UH congressional majority.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
So for the listener who has heard hydrogen, and then
we'll really get into hydrogen hubs and stuff, just kind
of explain why hydrogen is so appealing, especially if we're
looking at things like we talked about cleaner energy, climate
change things that we want to start looking at hydrogen.
Can you tell me why it's an important fuel for

(05:30):
us to to continue to look at well.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
You know, as we evolve our energy systems from take
Western Pennsylvania water, coal, oil, natural gas, and nuclear UH
and then with really the recent you know, the build
up of of sore and wind resources. You know, as
you as you add all these these resources together and

(05:54):
you look at their various value pieces, there remains many
elements of those UH technologies and those resources that that
don't work perfectly because they're they're sort of discrete. The
beauty of hydrogen is that it can be made from uh,
you know, electricity directly, whether that's renewable or nuclear and
or hydropower UH and turned into this this UH fuel resource.

(06:19):
It can also be extracted from natural gas and UH
if it's done with a carbon reduction or carbon separation,
then it is you know, a zero emissions or low
carbon hydrogen. So hydrogen becomes this this molecular fuel that
that can be used for decarbonizing industrial processes. It can

(06:41):
be put directly into automobiles and trucks to reduce diesel
fuel and UH heavy duty emission emissions from heavy duty vehicles.
It also is a key featstock component in such things
as methanol and ammonia. And for those who have an
agricultural knowledge, ammonia is the core component of fertilizer. So
as the world grows and there's a demand for more food,

(07:05):
there's going to be a demand around the world for
cleaner ammonia, ammonia that's made from cleaner sources, and cleaner hydrogen.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
So you've got a lot.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
Of these reasons why hydrogen is valuable as either an
input to other commodities or as a direct fuel itself.
And it can be manufactured locally, it can be manufactured
from various feedstocks, and so it doesn't really replace all
those other resources that I describe. It does replace some

(07:36):
of them in certain situations, but it actually enhances the
ability for us to get more flexibility out of all
of the other energy resources. And that's why it has
so much appeal, and not just in the United States
but throughout the world.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
That makes sense. So let's bring it back home to Pennsylvania,
home of two federally funded hydrogen hubs. One was arched
too and one was mocked too. So how do you
see these two hubs accelerating hydrogen adoption across the refining,
chemical and power sector. You mentioned earlier that there was
a lot still left in the IR in the IRA

(08:12):
as well as in the Big Beautiful Bill. So how
does how do these hubs still continue the arc to
and mock too.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Let me let me start by saying that these two
particular hubs are one of seven. Are there two of
seven hubs that were competitively solicited by the Department of
Energy with funding that came out of the Bipartisan Infrastructure
Law or IIJA back in twenty twenty one, and the
goal was to put a deposit of federal monies into

(08:44):
these public private partnerships. There were initially some seventy competitors
that went down to thirty and they finally selected the
seven regional hubs, of which the two in West Virginia
Pennsylvania and then in eastern Pennsylvania and New Jersey and
Delaware are War Ease and the The goal of the
HUBS program was to take in very focused areas around

(09:08):
the country a series of projects and developments such as
the use and buses with fuel cells, the the production
of ammonia as I mentioned earlier, and to and to
create sort of these starting places for markets to occur
with the with the federal government putting some money up
to defray you know, some of the initial costs of

(09:28):
doing this, and then the rest of the money is
coming from UH you know, public private partnerships. So the
two that are in UH in Pennsylvania, ARCH two and
mack TWU that you refer to are somewhat unique based
upon a little bit of unique to be different based
upon their geography.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
You know.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
ARCH two is really in the Appalachian Regional Clean hydrid
Hub and it is heavily UH focused on natural gas
and clean UH hydrogen from from natural gas resources and
really showing the ways in which the use of plentiful
natural gas in the US can also have additional purposes

(10:07):
of being you know, made into hydrogen being used as
as as different types of fuels. And so the model
around the ARCH TOO and the various projects that make
up ARCH two are based around the mainly natural gas
and what's called blue hydrogen development and trying to you know,

(10:28):
expand the use of technologies that that augment the there's
just a combustion of natural gas as we as we
do in the country. The mock TOO Hub is focused
on the eastern part of the state. It's got a
diversity of kinds of projects to produce hydrogen. Some of
the focus on Mock two are more heavily focused. There
is focus and Arch two about transportation and buses, but

(10:51):
a lot of the mock to models are and work
is around building building like transportation networks, because if you
look at eastern Pennsylvania to the Jersey Quarter Delaware of
the Interstate ninety five quarter, it's a very congested and
you know, very emissions dense area. And so inserting clean

(11:11):
hydrogen that is produced locally as sort of a fuel
resource for various types of vehicles reduces emissions, makes the
air cleaner, certainly reduces carbon which was one of the goals.
But so the two of those two hubs have have
a series of projects. All all hubs have a series
of projects. Those two hubs have projects based around the

(11:32):
unique you know, geographic and geological resources in Western Pa
and then the transportation needs in Eastern PA.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
That kind of gives you a snapshot. There's more to it.
You can look at their website.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna get back on that.
Let me just take a quick break. You're listening to
the NX Team mix Raio show. We'll be right back.

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(12:15):
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Speaker 2 (13:02):
And we're back. You're listening to the Energy Mix radio show. Frank.
Before the break, you were telling us I asked you
about two federally funded hydrogen hubs, one arch To and
mock Tow, which you described and I both can see
I can see the value in both. You mentioned though,
that it was a series of seven, and so there's

(13:22):
five others. Can you quickly tell us a little bit
about the other five and how those components come into play.

Speaker 4 (13:28):
Also sure they're all structured in the same way as
public private partnerships with it with a depositive of federal
moneys managed by the Department of Energy. And they're all regional.
You've got a hydrid hub in California called Arches. You've
got one up in the Pacific Northwest called the Pacific
Northwest Hydrian Houbits or in Washington State. There is one

(13:49):
in the Gulf region in Houston, which is called the
High Blossi. It kind of covers mainly the Houston area,
but also kind of migrates over into some of the
oil producing and High dan areas where you've got refining
and other you know, industrial activity into the Gulf region.
There are also two hubs in the Midwest UH, and

(14:12):
each of each of all of them have unique kind
of features based around what resources they were going to use.
Pacific Northwest has lots of hydropower, so obviously that that
hub would have a heavy reliance on the use of
hydro electricity as well as other sources to make hydrogen.
The California Hub is UH one that's got to you know,

(14:33):
looking at trying to solve a lot of the transportation
challenges with the high density of vehicles cars in California.
Again building projects that create this sustainable network. The Texas
hubs I mentioned it has got significant petrochemical refining, reducing
carbon producing hydrogen that's used in refining, and so there's

(14:55):
you can see the cluster of activities around that and
the two hubs in the in the West, you have
a mix of transportation activities, nuclear, UH, production of agricultural
fertilizers and things. So they're all kind of set up
with a series of projects looking to to UH, you know,
build build the sort of a connection of these various

(15:16):
type of project activities UH in a in an organized
and sustainable way.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Your backsheet from your organization highlight that hydrogen's role in
decarbonizing hard to abate industries. Tell me a little bit
about the specifics maybe in Pennsylvania, the types of decarbonization
that are going to be hard to debate, as well
as if you can tell me a little bit about
who stands to benefit the most from this transition.

Speaker 4 (15:45):
Well, let me on me start by talking about what
is known as hard to abate UH sectors. And if
you're if you're considering ways of which you UH, you
have very few choices to reduce carbon intent city heavy
duty vehicles being one. For all the goods that are
transported across the country, the primary fuel is diesel fuel,

(16:08):
and diesel fuel is a wonderful dense fuel, but it
has a very high carbon intensity. Anybody that's traveled behind
a tractor trailer knows that the emissions when you add
were significant. So one of the and you can't put
batteries on heavy duty vehicles because they're too heavy, So
you really have to find alternative ways to put different
fuel on those vehicles. And that's why it's defined as

(16:30):
one of those hard to abate sectors, hard to reduce
carbon sectors. And there are technologies that have evolved with
fuel cells and hydrogen storage that make an on road
vehicle and look like every other vehicle. It just has
a fuel cell instead of an engine, and a hydrogen
tank instead of a diesel tank, and carrying goods in

(16:51):
a way that is kind of a hybrid electric vehicle model.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's one example.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
The other area is if you've got you know, certain
types of heavy industrial processes, is steel making is one
of them. If you want to reduce the emissions from
the process of steel making or cement making, which are
carbon intensive, then you have to introduce a fuel that
doesn't have carbon in it into the process of making

(17:18):
those those materials. And you can't put carbon intens if
you're trying to get out carbon and all the other
fuels to be carbon based, and there's no way to
electrify even though there are some ways to electrify certain
steel making, so you have to introduce new fuels. Those
are kind of examples of how could hydrogen be inserted
into existing industries and yet have a benefit of improving

(17:42):
even the production of products, but also reducing the carbon
along the way.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Let's switch gears and talk about the forty five the
hydrogen production tax credit. Sure, how is the industry leveraging
this incentive to scale clean hydrogen projects. And are there
specific areas frank in which maybe like in Pennsylvania Commonwealth,
that are seeing more promise.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
Well, let me just kind of mention, but forty five
V is the section letter of the tax code, your
section forty five subsection V, and it is an investment
production tax credit where producers of hydrogen get a credit
based upon the production. So it's a very elegant way
for the United States to fund an investment but not

(18:29):
take early risk. You know, you only get paid when
you produce. So that's forty five V is the section
with this particular tax credit that was part of the
IRA and was sustained in the One Big Beautiful Bill
Act as far as the Pennsylvania and will benefit if

(18:49):
we have a fuel resource that is now available for
use it transit buses, if transit buses want to go
to a different form. You drive around airport, any airport
that you got even with even with compressed natural gas
buses that you see in the airport terminals, you still
have an emissions You still have a point area where

(19:09):
it's just uncomfortable to be under a tunnel in an airport.
Well if you look at transit fleets that might be
looking to use hydrogen fuel cell buses, you eliminate you
maintain all the flexibility of what people are accustomed to
in getting on and off the bus, but you don't
have any of those emissions that kind of reside within

(19:30):
these dense areas. So the production tax credit would allow
a lower cost of hydrogen to be made available. That
makes it cheaper for operators of bus fleets and regional
transit authorities to acquire hydrogen buses and kind of reduce
the emissions and improve the quality of life fed areas.
Whereas high concentrations, I can see that happening in Pennsylvania.

(19:51):
That was one of the areas of concentration in the
eastern Pennsylvania Maktu, and I know it's one of the
programs that they're looking at up in the Arch two
as well. So that's one one kind of area. As
far as who will who will benefit, well, I mean
in general, US society benefits. We're making investment in US technologies,

(20:13):
We're competing with the Chinese. We are taking which is
really an investment credit in new technology and new applications.
If you make a hydrogen for natural gas. It's an
investment in finding new ways to introduce you know, technologies
and regions that would only be producing natural gas. Now
you've got a sort of secondary set of investments related

(20:36):
to hydrogen technologies. And you also have you know, a
general you know, output of more goods and services with
clean inputs of ammonia for fertilizers, things like that. So
I think the whole country benefits, but we also benefit
by employing American technology. A lot of this is incubated
in the US, and you need a market in the
US to assure we can become an exporter and compete

(20:58):
with Europeans and Chinese and the Koreans.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Absolutely, let's take a quick break. When we return, I
want to talk about efficiency and zero admission because that's
pretty much the profile of hydrogen and a lot of
people look at it in different ways when they think
about hydrogen. But we have to take a quick break.
You're listening to the Energy Mix radio show and we'll
be right back. And we're back. You're listening to the

(21:22):
Energy Mix Radio show. Frank Today's show. Thank you for
coming on. You're talking to us about hydrogen and I
think it is a fuel that technology that does serve
a purpose when we're talking about do we want to
lower our carbon footprint? Now, hydrogen fuel cells are touted
for their efficiency and zero admission profile. My question is

(21:45):
what are the biggest barriers to widespread deployment, maybe specifically
in certain parts. Again, we can talk about Pennsylvania's Transportation
and Logistical Center, we can talk about it, you know,
United States wise. What I do know is when hydrogen
back and the biaminministration was companies were trying to apply
for permits, there seemed to be a lot of pushback

(22:05):
from the general community on the transportation issue. And I
guess you know. My thoughts are, if we're ever going
to look at how do we lower our carbon footprint,
we have to be prepared to take, you utilize and
allow different types of energy sources to come online and
see if there are actually something that might work. And

(22:26):
with hydrogen, it does appear to be a solution with
zero admissions. So one of the biggest barriers besides probably
a misunderstanding in some ways from the general public of
you know, what hydrogen is and what it can do
in lowering the carbon footprint. So how do we kick
this off in a widespread way where actually hydrogen is
being utilized more for transportation and logistics.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
Well, first, let me make a comment that hydrogen is
a seventeen and a half billion dollar industry in the
United States. We've been using shipping moving hydrogen around the country, uh,
sort of quietly, Uh, you know, since the best probably
the past hundred years. And uh, you know there are companies.
Air Products is headquartered in Pennsylvania. They are the largest

(23:11):
producer of hydrogen and you may see their trucks and
vehicles on the on the Pennsylvania Turnpike right as we
do around the whole country. So hydrogen has been it
among us for decades, we just don't really pay much
attention to it. What we're talking about is the newer
uses of hydrogen made from cleaned up natural gas from
electricity and nuclear plants that are not just kind of

(23:33):
industrial uses and where we're saying, we've got this wonderful fuel,
how can we put it into into employment in more places.
So that's kind of where the focus uh is with
with the you know, the the fuel cells and hydrogen
as a fuel. You know, the barriers when the impediments
are with any any new set of technologies. It's expensive

(23:54):
at first. You've got to get to scale. You've got
to get cost down. You know, we we.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
In any industry.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
You know, once you get to producing you know, millions
of units of anything, you drive your cost down. And
so one of the barriers to hydrogen initially is just
you've got to get you know, you know, relatively high
cost equipment. You've got to get the production cost in line.
And that's where that forty five V credit was helpful
because it allowed for a lowering of the cost to

(24:22):
produce hydrogen, and that made it more practical for bus
fleet operators to look at buying buses because they knew
they had.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
You know, potentially lower cost element of fuel.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
So as far as the you know, getting more adoption,
you've got to cost and early adoption kind of factors.
You also got infrastructure. You've got to have, you know,
pumping systems, you've got to have refueling stations, you've got
to have the vehicles. And that was one of the
reasons why the hydrogen hubs were created in the first place,
to be able to cluster certain kinds of activities and

(24:55):
show the way that there can be sustainable activities that
you know, wouldn't organically happen if you were just trying
to do a whole bunch of random buses around the country.
So the hubs, through sort of a managed process, are
putting together public private partnerships that will have various things
like vehicles, and from then, you know, the rest of
the country and other transit authorities, for example, can look

(25:17):
at what was done in one of the HOBS and say,
I like that model. That might work for us. That's
kind of how we get the adoption by you know,
you need some need volume, and then you need utilization.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
You know, I sure wish that when they were pushing
out the permitting these different cities, I can only speak
in the way of Texas what I saw, and there
was a whole lot of confusion, and there wasn't a
lot of discussion pertaining to how long hydrogen had been around,
And maybe it was just simply the confusion was and
how it was going to be transported. And as you said,
maybe the different uses that are fairly new is what

(25:51):
really upset a lot of the community. But it probably
would have been better had they used that hydrogen has
been around for a very long time and has shown
that it is safe a good alternative fuel source to
look at. We're going to take a quick break. When
we return, I want to talk about jobs and how
hydrogen can possibly create thousands of jobs. You're listening to
the Energy Mix radio show.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2 (27:21):
And we're back. You're listening to the Energy Mix radio show. Frank.
Before the break, you were telling us a little bit
about how hydrogen has been around for a long time.
It's energy, it's efficient, it's zero admissions, and how we
can probably lower the biggest barriers that hydrogen is experiencing

(27:42):
along with wider deployment and use of it. But I
want to switch gears because in your fact sheet you
mentioned that hydrogen's potential to create thousands of energy and
construction jobs. There's that potential, So what workforce development strategies
are in place to meet this demand and in what
areas do you see hydrogen growing the most Of all

(28:05):
the stuff you've been discussing between Arch two Mock two,
and then of course what is left in the big
beautiful bill permitting that's already out there. I kind of
want you to give me an idea of what you
see is the most promising and what we're going to
see happening and unfolding most when we talk about hydrogen, well.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
Let me let me sort of start with you mentioned jobs.
I think that's an important piece to just frame from
minute that addition to all the benefits from from economics
and from a clear air and decarbonization that you might
get from from hydrogen hydrogen because it's a new industry,

(28:44):
even though it's been around a long time, those new
types of jobs build upon the kind of jobs that
are already in place that we want to retain. These
are industrial, these are welders, they are technicians, they are
you know, because hydrogen is kind of a process industry
with tank and pumps. So if you think of those
kinds of facilities that need to be put in place

(29:05):
to serve new uses, you need to augment the kind
of people that get you know, high quality jobs have
to be trained, and those are skill sets that we
don't want to lose. These aren't just you know, come
on the job in the morning and you're working in
the afternoon type of positions. And they're long term because
the investments are a long term. You put these hydrogen
production facilities in place, they're going to be around for

(29:27):
thirty or forty years. So the jobs creation are the
kind of durable jobs that many people, and for example
Western Pennsylvania are used to wanting to see. And I
think that's an important piece that these are not just
you know, back office kind of jobs. Many of them
are technicians in the field as well as you know,
softer jobs of accounting and you know analysts and others.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
But they're kind of jobs we want.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
So then let me ask you safety. You know, I've
mentioned in previous segment how what I saw in hermitating
process for some really stellar energy companies. And when I
think about it, in my mind, do I want a
fairly new energy exploration company applying for hydrogen permits or

(30:11):
do I want a very large, publicly traded company that
has a lot of experience and in knowing what they
do and has the dollars to invest in safety and
R and D. And my mind goes to I want
the big companies. But even when these large exploration company
is applied, there was a lot of anti hydrogen sediment period,

(30:36):
so safety was a concern. And now I'm curious the
new energy technologies, how does hydrogen's infrastructure compare to traditional
field systems in terms of safety and public perception, because
we seem to keep having a problem with public perception
when we talk about hydrogen.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
Well, you know, I want to go back to the
fact that hydrogen has been around for one hundred years.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Saying keeps saying it.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
I want my listeners to know the public just hasn't
really been aware of it. So what we're what we're
talking about doing is not necessarily creating, you know, such
new facilities that no one understands the technology, no one
understands how it works. We're assembling technologies that have been
in use around the world for uh, you know, for

(31:21):
for decades.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
We're just doing more of it.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
So when you think of citing hydrogen related facilities, you're
replicating facilities that have safely produced hydrogen and transported hydrogen
and offloaded you know, in parts of the country, it's
just not visible to people. And I don't know the
specifics of where you're referring to in the UH in
it sounds like it was is Texas. But you know,

(31:47):
I think the public uh people do in the education
of the public need to start with the fact that
this is this is a gas that's been around us
for for decades and that what we're trying to do
is add more of it, and then whether the companies
are big multinational companies or whether they are unknown companies.

(32:08):
Something to keep in mind is a lot of the
engineering and construction work that is going on is by
qualified entities who are already in the process industries. You know,
those companies who are doing oil and gas work in
Louisiana who have got certified welders, who have got technicians
who are dealing with pressure vessels and tanks and all
those kind of things that you see in an oil

(32:30):
and gas kind of operation or refining or you know,
any kind of industrial facility. Those are the same quality
skill sets at engineering firms that are going to be
doing the design work for the hydrogen. So there's an
institutional knowledge. It's being applied differently to something else called hydrogen,
but that institutional knowledge is something that is that is

(32:50):
very important. We're not creating the engineer that just got
out of school last week and suddenly saying, go build
a hydrogen facility in someone's backyard.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
A lot of this is incremental.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Well, that's one of the things that I've always loved
about hydrogen I've been around in various energy in all
my career that hydrogen is in so many ways incremental.
It is expanding what we do technically from a job's
creation and from a safety platform. You know, the safety
that's been around in oil and gas refineries and industrial

(33:22):
facilities and steelmaking whatever, as well as hydrogen has years
and years of codes and standards reviews, and so this
is not like, oops, we forgot something. No one thought
about that. So much of this is just taking what's
already been well invested in around the world and applying it.

(33:43):
And of course you have to be safe, you have
to have construction techniques that work. But you know, if
the education process should it should emphasize that we're making
more of what we've already done, not embarking on some
new journey.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, And to clarify, you know, I was specifically talking
about Texas, Frank, And it wasn't so much the hydrogen
that the perception was negative. It was once we got
into the transportation and how we have to liquefy it
and stuff for transportation, that is where the communication started
to break down. And I don't think the energy companies

(34:20):
did a great job of explaining you know their safety
models and things like that. So I just wanted to
clarify that, but we have to take a quick break.
You're listening to the Energy Mixed radio show and we'll
be right back.

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Speaker 2 (36:11):
And look back. You're listening to the Energy Mix radio show.
My show today is on hydrogen. Frank before the break,
I kind of made a comment about Texas and it
didn't seem as though a lot of companies that were
applying for their permits were being well received in the
way from the community for fear that hydrogen as far
as shipping it, it was always not in my backyard,

(36:33):
right That was a sentiment. Take it somewhere else. You know,
we don't mind helping the climate, but we don't want
it in our own backyard, and maybe the energy companies
that we're playing for the permits didn't do such a
great job of explaining the safety aspects, even though they
might have tried. So I want to give it back
to you because I think you have something to say
on as a hydrogen expert on the safety of it,
and of course in the public sentiment that might not

(36:54):
understand a little bit about hydrogen and it's safety.

Speaker 4 (36:57):
I think it's it's it's important to all of us
in industry to remind ourselves that that, you know, the
perceptions of individual citizens are important because they're the ones
who have to live around facilities, and that that nothing
really should be overlooked when it comes to assuring that
that people who are seeing new facilities built understand how
they work, and that you know, we live in a

(37:18):
country with with nimbiism for all kinds of things, so
you know, you have to be aware that that individuals
have have concerns and they should be addressed. But I
want to point point out one thing about because you
talked about this was maybe a transportation related subject, the
hydrogen technologies that would be employed in the vehicles and
and fueling stations are manufactured by you know, many of

(37:38):
the same companies that we have enjoyed the quality of
their vehicles, you know, for forever UH. You know, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, UH.
You know, they're the ones who are looking at the cars.
They are also the manufacturers, along with companies like Cummings
of of of the larger UH diesel replacement type vehicle
UH prime movers. And so these these major multinational companies

(38:01):
put millions of dollars into research and development, and they
don't want to put products out that are that are
not consumer ready. So I think that that you know,
it's it's not a complete explanation for the person who
might be concerned about about how is this new facility
being placed, you know, near me. But but the idea
of taking a fuel, putting it in storage, compressing it,
and then putting it into a vehicle goes on whether

(38:22):
it's compressed natural gas, whether it's diesel, whether it's gasoline,
And and that the safeguards about how to safely move
a fuel into a into a vehicle are you know,
well understood and are and are addressed by companies who
don't want the liability of these problems. So they're going
to double down and they're going to make sure that
that these systems are in fact consumer ready because it's

(38:43):
it's just in their best interest.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
To do that.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
And these are these are again reliable entities putting the
technologies in place. That's important to consider.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
I'm curious of you know, your opinion as an expert
in this area, your thoughts on how can hydrogen complement,
if possible, the existing energy sources like natural gas or
even nuclear as you mentioned earlier in the show, to
strengthen the energy security and grid resilience.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Well, there's a couple advantage points for that. One is
in the optimization of those types of facilities you mentioned.
The other piece which we didn't touch on, is fuel
cells can be used for power generation. Fuel cells operate
on natural gas or on hydrogen. They take natural gas
and they convert the hydrogen in the process, or they
can use hydrogen directly. And so statemre called stationary fuel

(39:30):
cells are in use around the country at data center's hospitals,
so they can become ways to use natural gas today
that are in many cases hydrogen ready to be adding
more power to the grid as we have more needs
and more demands, and because they don't combust the fuel,
they don't have point emissions. If they're operating on hydrogen,

(39:50):
they're totally carbon free and zero emissions. But even when
you are using natural gas, you don't produce the nitrous
oxides and carbon monoxide that you would in combustion. Very
very environmentally and user friendly close to point of use.
Those types of technologies definitely add to the need for
power as we as we grow, whether it's data AI,

(40:12):
it's going to be need for more power in various ways.
The other side of it is for the utilization. And
as I said that hydrogen can be manufactured through something
called electrolysis from an electron coming from a nuclear plant
hydro electric facility, it can also be created from something
that's called steam methane reforming. I don't want to get

(40:34):
too technical. That's the way we break it apart in
natural gas. But when you're looking at nuclear and hydro
electric facilities, if there's the ability to have an additional
product from those facilities in addition to electricity, it might
make the operation of a dam far more flexible, where
the operator of a dam can decide to let more
water out even when there might not be electric demand

(40:55):
and produce hydrogen during those hours stored and use it
for transportation.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
So it gives a lot of.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
The ability to make this other fuel, gives operating flexibility
to traditional resources, and that makes our grid work better.
The other way with natural gas is if you separate
the the hydrogen from natural gas, uh, and you do
it with carbon separation or you know carbon, you have
a very low emissions level hydrogen that creates the secondary

(41:23):
use for natural gas. And anyone who's in western Pennsylvania
knows that, you know, through the through the result of
fracking and and other enhanced uh, you know, geological activities.
You know, we have more plentiful natural gas, and we
want to think of different ways to use it creatively.
We want, you know, more ways that technology can be employed.
And so in that way, you know, adding hydrogen that
comes from natural gas is the way to diversify the

(41:47):
output of natural gas fields produce different products and also
create new technologies and new kinds of jobs and regions
that would otherwise just be you know, producing areas. So
puts a little bit of maybe manufacturing or technical uh,
you know, opportunities in areas that otherwise wouldn't have them,
So that's kind of a broad brsh sense of the
use in power.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
My last question before we close out the show is
you mentioned all these different hubs at the Department of
Energy awarded and you mentioned here in Texas we did
have the high velocity hydrogen hub. Universities and research institutions.
How are they advancing hydrogen innovation and commercialization in your opinion?

Speaker 4 (42:29):
Well, the the university mix and our national labs, and
when I think of the Western Pennsylvania starting to show
the National Energy Technology Lab in both Morgantown, West Virginia
outside of Pittsburgh has been central to the ways in
which we look at at you know, i'll call them
earth resources in some ways you know, oil, natural gas,

(42:50):
coal and and uh, you know, and also ways in
which we can use those technologies that are using natural
gas differently, like using hydrogen combustion and gas turbines and
kind of advancing the state of the art. So our
national labs across the country in many ways are places
where good core research is taking place that advances US technologies.

(43:12):
That's one element at the university level, any any institution
of you know, engineering or you know, the technology schools
has some form of its mechanical engineering or electual engineering,
or it's material sciences that are looking at in some
ways at well, how does hydrogen, you know, be advanced.
There's research going on to make the tanks stronger, to

(43:37):
look at better ways to compress hydrogen, better ways to
store it, vehicle activities.

Speaker 6 (43:43):
So the.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
Landscape in the United States of our research institutions has
been heavily involvement in hydriden development, much of that guided
by the US Department of Energy. Going back to my
original point that in two thousand and five when President
Bush sort of created the hydrid Technologies Office, one of
the reasons for creating that was to create a connection
between our national labs, US policies to be leaders globally,

(44:09):
and the fact that we had so many great engineering
schools around the country, and a lot of the work
that has gone on over the years within the Department
of Energy has been sustaining that kind of connection of
technical knowledge through the support of the Department of Energy,
and as an association, we're looking very hard at working
with Congress to make sure that some of those key

(44:30):
funding elements that really benefit the US economy don't get
undermined as we look at cutting back and reducing the
total US budget.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Absolutely well, Frank, I do want to thank you for
joining me today, helping us understand a little bit more
and drilling Dan deeper into hydrogen. Don't be a link
at the bottom of the posting that will link to
your organization. Thank you again for coming on the Energy
Mix Radio Show.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Thank you for having me Kendall.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
The Energy Mix Radio Show is where we explore topics
that affect us all in the oil and gas industry.
Every week, our hosts will interview the movers and shakers
in this fast paced industry. You'll hear from industry experts,
collected officials, many more on the Energy Mix Radio Show.