June 3, 2025 • 33 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
David Kleiner as our guest. He resides in the Greater
Brinham area. Now. His son's the head football coach at
Somerville High School. His other son is the offensive coordinator there.
You probably remember the name if you've been in Houston
or followed football for very long. He was a star
quarterback at the University of Houston in the early nineties.
(00:20):
He was third runner up for second runner up for
the Heisman Trophy. First round draft pick of the Cincinnati
Bengals ended up going to the Raiders, but his elbow
was blown by then and came home and decided he
really wanted to learn the Bible, and now he teaches
others and teaches people how to learn the Bible. He,
(00:40):
of course, in the meantime, went and got a PhD
at Seminary in theology. David, let me ask you a question.
You were talking earlier about theological studies and the types
of people who go there. I have heard it said
of people I've known who were Theologians that went to
Harvard Divinity's School, that there aren't actually any Christians there,
(01:03):
that it's as if it's sort of like you go
to a literature school and there's no writers there that
there are people who reduce it to something that does
not involve any faith. Do you find that to be
the case.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, well, yeah, we have in our desire to make
the Bible more acceptable because of what we were talking
in the last session that you know, the Bible calls
to suffering. You know, James is going to say, considered,
(01:37):
all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials knowing
that the testing of your faith works for endurance, and
let endurance have it. That's not fun talk right suffering,
you know. And so in our desire to make the
Bible more appealing, less offensive, more tolerant, more all accepting,
(02:00):
we water down the Gospel, We water down the teachings
of the Bible. And it's all around us today. But
it's not just today. That's always been the case, Paul,
from the very beginning. The all of the letters that
we see in the New Testament. We're actually in we're
having a conference coming up in March fourteenth and fifteenth
(02:22):
where we're going to talk about the letters. But all
of the letters in the Bible, whether it's Romans or
Ephesians or Galatians or whatever it is, these were letters
written to people or to the church to address theological
issues that have come up that are causing people to change,
to compromise. And so every school Princeton, Harvard, so many
(02:46):
of our great schools, Yale, they all began as theological institutions.
And unfortunately we tend to wander from the faith. And
it wouldn't surprise me if even schools that have historically
been really good Dallas Seminary or you know, all of
(03:07):
these denominations, we're seeing it. They all wander from the
faith and compromise, often under the guise of being tolerant
and more loving. But what happens is we we change
the definitions right of these words. And you see it
even in constitutional law and government and these types of things,
that if you're allowed to change the definitions, you can
(03:29):
make it mean whatever you want, right, And so I
see it's.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
The ultimate O. Right, that's what new speakers about. He
gave us the tools to understand this, that words have meaning,
and that if you need to change concepts, you simply
change words and change meaning. And it's very powerful. You
made a reference to the church, and I'm never you know,
people like to paint with a broad brush and refer
(03:53):
to the black community as if all black people live
in a certain neighborhood and make the same amount of
money and do the same things. And it's just not true.
And so I'm going to paint with a bit of
a broadbrush. But when you look at the church today,
organized Christianity in the form most of us would identify with,
where do you see that as compared to where it was?
(04:15):
And what would you most like to change?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I tell you know, when we walk down that that's
a great question. We walk down the trail of church history.
And one of the things that we're doing at our church,
Champion Fellowship and Brenham is we are I'm helping us
think through the reality the distinction between the church or
a church. A church is simply a gathering of believers,
(04:42):
and so you know, and so once a you know,
a group of believers gathers, we can call it a church.
But the Body of Christ, the Body of Christ, is
all believers in all places, in all times. At the
end of the story, people from every nation, every tribe,
every people, every tongue. This is the Body of Christ.
And we have so divided the Body of Christ. We're
(05:04):
so you know, we have factions Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist, UH.
I prefer to just.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Refer to it as Southern Baptist. And the non Christians,
well that's me.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, that we're the only ones who are who are saved, right,
We're the only ones who are in And and I
love what Paul says to the Corinthians. You know that
this is UH, you know, very early one of UH,
one of the early letters that Paul writes. And there's
divisions in the church at Corinth And and they've divided
over following. Some of them are following Paul, some of
(05:46):
them are following Apollos, who's the pastor of the church there.
Some of them are following Peter, who's the leader of
the of the Jews and the church in Jerusalem. And
and I love what he says. He says, you know,
I hear that there are divisions among you. Some are
saying I'm of Paul, or I'm of Apollos, or I'm
of Peter or of Christ. And then he asked this question,
(06:08):
was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized in
the name of Paul? I thank god I didn't baptize
any of you, so none of you could say you
were baptized in my name right. And then he goes
on to say, and this is where the it kind
of makes us, you know, Baptists uncomfortable. He says, the
Lord didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.
(06:29):
And so he goes on to explain in this whole
letter that everything he does is to build up the
body of Christ. And so we do great error when
we fail to recognize that all believers in all places,
in all times, in all churches, and none of us
have the you know, we're all heretics in the sense
(06:52):
that we all believe false doctrine, and we just don't
know what the false doctrine is that we're believing. And
so that's what we've got to go back to the
scriptures all of the time to make sure that what
we're saying is So we've got to be bereans. And
I think that you've got to have a lot of
humility when you come to the scriptures and put yourself
(07:12):
under the authority of the text, not under the authority
of a teacher, a Bible teacher, a ministry, even if
it's teach me the Bible or whatever it is. We
all have to answer to the Lord. And so so
you know, the church has always been in some ways
a mess because it's human. Church is the bride of Christ, sure,
(07:35):
and the church is the bride of Christ, and He
gave himself for the church.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And so so one of the things that David Cliler
is our guest, I'm going to ask him in his
teach Me the Bible dot com and teach Me the
Bible podcast sort of way to teach me about one
of my favorite people in the Bible, and that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Is the apostle.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Part to teach me think what she said in Spinish.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I just said it's the judge in Spanish, because I
feel that she forgets that we're Hispanic and that we're
the people.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
That she targeted for a vote. The Michael Barry Show.
David Klingler is our guest. You may remember him as
a football star. He went on to get his PhD
in theological studies with an expertise in the Old Testament.
You can go to teach Me the Bible dot com
in a very accessible way to learn about the Bible.
He also has a podcast. Those of you always looking
(08:28):
for a fun new podcast, and he's our guest of
David Klingler. If you would teach me the Bible about Paul.
Saul of Tarsus, one of my favorite, one of my
favorite people in all the Bible is Uh Saul of
Tarsus because of well, for many reasons. But anyway, teach
(08:49):
me the Bible about Paul.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Uh. What an You know, Paul was a he's a pharisee. Uh.
You know, kind of lists his credentials in Philippians chapter three.
You know, he was of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised
on the eighth day. He was steadfast in his holding
to Judaism, persecution of the church. And and so the
(09:15):
thing about Paul is he knew the Old Testament scriptures
stone cold. I mean, he knew, he knew the Bible.
He knew the Old Testament scriptures. And when he comes
to Christ, it just changes everything for him. Uh. And
and so he wholly devotes himself to the Lord. And
and we were talking in the last segment about the Corinthians,
(09:35):
and and and and everything that he does is for
the building up of the body of Christ. He explains
that we are members of one another. And I love,
How he how he sets that out that John says
the same thing. It's all bringing a little bit of
John here in first John. But how can you say
(09:55):
that you love Christ and you haven't seen Uh, none
of us have seen Jesus. None of us have heard
his voice. We talk about you know, we use that
kind of language. You know, I've heard the voice, but
you know, but how would you know? Right, Paul was
going to say, Look, I don't care if an angel
appears in you know, in the room. If if someone
appears to you, If an angel appears to you and
(10:17):
presents a gospel different than that which I preached, let
him be a curse. And you know. And so if
we haven't seen Jesus, don't tell me about your love
of Jesus. Show me your love of Jesus through your
love of his body. That is the Church, the body
of Christ. And so we need to be about building
up the body of christis everything he does. He sacrifices
(10:38):
his whole life, all his credentials, to build up the
Body of Christ, to take the gospel to the gentiles.
And and boy, he is bold, I mean unbelievably bold,
and ultimately goes to his death because of it, just
an amazing character.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
What I find interesting is that perhaps the verses that
that I have most really enjoyed diving into and really
taking them apart. I like to put take things apart
and put them back together, not physical things, but people
and in literature and the Bible. And I find that
with Paul's letters, I do that. And I didn't know
(11:22):
until later that these were letters, that this was a
sort of an untraditional, unconventional portion of the Bible. How
do you think that affects the books that by that
that that are attributed to Paul because they were a
letter formed from prison to those those peoples, those churches.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Well, I think that that if we if we first
remember that they're letters, you'll interpret them correctly. Right we
go in. Let's take for example, Paul's letter to Timothy.
He writes two letters to Timothy, and he's going to
say things. He's going to tell Timothy to do things
like look out for ali Xander the coppers myth. Well,
(12:02):
I'm not worried about Alexander the coppers myth, you know.
And and he says, bring me my cloak imparchments before winter.
And I'm not trying to find Paul before winter. I'm
not praying for Paul, you know, Paul's you know, but
he tells Timothy to do other things that are very
applicable to today. And and so when we remember that Paul,
(12:23):
for example, was writing to the Romans, the Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians,
whoever was to address specific issues that had arisen in
that congregation or with thy laymen, or or with with Timothy,
or in the church at Thesalonaika, then we can read
them and it makes sense. We see what he was
doing back then, and we can draw implications for today
(12:45):
because we're still in the church today and the you know,
the church still has its struggles, and the world is
still the world nothing as new, as Solomon would say
in Ecclesiastices, there's nothing new under the sun. It's the issues.
People are still pursuing wealth in a big name and
(13:05):
fame and fortune, and then they die and it's all vanity.
David Klingler is our guest.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
David, let me ask you, you know, having gone to
law school and then getting another law degree. When people
ask me questions about, you know, how do I learn
more about the law, I often say that you have
to begin by unlearning many things that were told to
you that are not true because they create blocks, and
how you understand, you know, how our legal code is written,
(13:34):
and how how our legal code is interpreted and applied
and precedent and case law and all these sorts of things.
What are some things that you think corrupt our general
understanding of the Bible in a conventional sense that you
have to undo to go in with a properly open mind.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Boy, what a great question. I think that our denominationalism
doesn't help. Our church history doesn't help, Our Americanism doesn't help.
And I'm you know, look, I I'm profoundly proud of
our our our American history and so many of the
(14:12):
things there. But but when we equate being American with
being Christian, or or being whatever it is with being Christian,
that's that's not helpful. And so, as you said, so
many of the things that we have learned, not only
you know, limit us from understanding the Bible.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
David Klingler is our guest. We had a momentary glitch.
The devil was was working on our phone lines and
took it down for a moment. But yeah, throughout his
career he has uh He has been perseverant and resilient,
if if nothing else, and and he will continue.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
To be.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Just a second before we go to a quick break,
and then we'll move on to the next thing. What
do you love most about what you do now in
addition to being a dad and a husband and a friend.
But this, I don't want to call it a job
per se. But what do you love most about it.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
To watch people understand the Bible. It was the thing
that drove me. And in the Bible doesn't need to
be hard to understand. The churches don't need to be
set against each other. We need to all be pursuing truth.
And and so when we understand the Bible becomes so simple,
and it's fun to watch students they're you know, the
(15:31):
kind of that aha moment. They they get it, they
understand it, and and it's just fun to watch. And
then they you watch how it changes their lives and
they devote themselves to very different things than they had before.
And and so that's what I love, That's what I do.
I'm thankful for the ministry of teaching the Bible. There's
so many great people behind that thing and make that go.
(15:52):
I just say on the in the microphone, what I
teach at at the seminary, But just so thankful to
be a part of that, and that the Lord can
use any of us. You know, you don't have to
be a retired football player with a big name. The
Lord has always used the smallest.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
No, that's a talent and it's good that you do
use it. David Klingley Clingler is our guest more than comm.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And you listen to the Michael Berry Show. Good not.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
David Klingler is our guest, former star quarterback. Now Teach
Me the Bible dot com or you can listen to
the podcast Teach Me the about You were talking about
the Book of John and and we're going to to
get to Paul's letters, I hope at some point, because
that's something that's always appealed to me. But you were
talking about we're talking about learning the Bible, and I'm
(16:49):
talking as much about self taught, which appears to be
a lot of what y'all do. And I love that
you're not trying to build an audience for yourself. You're
trying to It appears to me my study of what
y'all have done is to get people engage themselves in
a self help study of the Bible. And I love
that approach. But anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, our mission is to help the people of God
understand the Word of God. But you know the Gospel
of John, John is writing to convince the reader that
Jesus is the Christ. Well, if I ask students, and
I do this all the time in seminary, okay, well
what does that mean? And they look at me with
a blank stare, like, I don't know. Like Jesus Christ right,
(17:31):
Like you know, if he was wearing a jersey on
the back of his jersey, it would say Christ, like
his last name. Well, that's not that's a title. He's
the anointed king of Israel, proven through what he does,
through what he says. His words and works match those
of the Old Testament. So he's not somebody because even
(17:55):
John says so. Jesus even says in the Gospel of John,
and interact with the Pharisees. You know, you search the
scriptures because then you think you have eternal life. But
it's these that speak of me. And of course he's
talking about the Old Testament that all of creation was
waiting for this one to appear, and so that anticipation
is built in the Old Testament, and then you know,
(18:18):
I love how Matthew presents it. You know, the hope
of the world walked onto the scene in human form.
John says that that the Word became flesh and dwelt
among us talking about John and the other disciples, and
we beheld his glory, we saw him, we touched him
our hands, and we stuck our fingers in those holes,
(18:41):
and so we proclaimed to you. And so it's just
such an amazing story that corresponds to history. I mean,
you look at the world around us and even current
events today and what's happening, and this whole thing is
heading towards the end of God's redempt of his tree.
And you know, so the reason why it's so relevant
(19:03):
to us is because you're in it. We're all in it,
you know. And so so it's just such a compelling
the story to me, that corresponds to life, to all
of our lives. And so I think it's something that
everybody needs to know for themselves.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That's a fascinating approach. You know, I have experienced something
over the years, and I'm sure you have tenfold, and
that is that if I have someone on to talk
about the Bible, or if I myself make a statement
about my interpretation of something. There are a certain number
of people who it's the one upsmanship of social media.
(19:44):
They can't help themselves, but they love to tell you
how that's wrong because their pastor said this, this or this,
and I equate it to this. If I were to
go on Facebook today, just a toxic can be a
toxic place, but it could also be a wonderful place
because we get some things done there kind of crowd sourcing.
I were to say, I went to David Klingler's home
(20:04):
this weekend and he made burgers for us, and they
were wonderful, delicious burgers with cheese and meat and mayonnaise
and bread. I would out of the thousand people that
would respond, fifty of them would be no, my brother's
burgers were better, even though they had never eaten your
There's just this desire to kind of want to do.
You find people to be after reviewing the podcast, A
(20:26):
certain number of them to be combat combative, argumentative, because
I find that the Bible brings that out in some
people worse than even sports fandom.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah there, yeah, politics, you deal with it. You know
it's politics religion. Those are areas in sports, right, politics
for religion and sports. So you know, those are the
kind of the three areas where everybody is entitled to
their own opinion, you know. And you can't tell me
any different, but you know, but again what motivates me.
(20:59):
I liked the example of the Bareans that that Lukera
courds in the Book of Acts. You know that they're
commended for going back to the scriptures to see if
these things are so? And you know, and so I
tell my students all the time, don't listen to me.
I don't want you to. You know, when you stand
before the Lord and say, well, doctor Klingler said, well,
(21:22):
you know what I tell him. Klingler's a moron. He's
been a more in his whole life. He's just trying
to help you see what the scriptures say. So let's
go back to see if these things are are so.
And so often our interpretation of some verse doesn't make
any sense. You know. I hear the same ones all
(21:42):
the time. I can do all things through Christy's strengthens me.
Well think about that for a second. Can you what
can you actually do through Christy strengthens you can you
leap tall buildings with a single bound or mentoring a
kid in high school and he had that Philippians four
thirteen on his letter Jack and his name is Casey,
And I said, Casey, what's that phil four thirteen? And
(22:05):
he looked at me like, well, aren't you supposed to
be a Bible teacher. Aren't you supposed to know this?
He said, I can do all things through christ who
strengthens me. I said, but like what? And he got
this paniced look on his face, like I'm not so
sure now that you you pressed me on it. And
so I said, well, how much do you bench pressed?
And he said, well, you know about three fifteen, so
that's pretty good for high school kid. I said, how
(22:26):
much you bench pressed with Christy's strengthened? Yet he says, well,
I guess about the same. I said, what does that mean?
And notice that Paul's writing to the Philippians and he
doesn't say, y'all can do all things through Christy strengthens y'all.
He could have said that, So what does he mean
when he says what he says? So? Really? Yeah, Well,
(22:50):
what he's talking about in the whole letter is that
he was concerned for these Philippians because you know the
the it's a very alive in wealth theology today that
if you serve the Lord, right, if you serve whatever
God it is you serve, he will bless you physically
and financially. Now, and of course that's not the gospel,
(23:13):
that's not Paul's reality. Paul had everything you know that
a religious leader would desire when he was a Pharisee.
But he comes to Christ and now all of a
sudden he's being beaten and persecuted and shipwrecked, and everywhere
he goes it's turning terrible for him. And he's concerned
with these Philippians who have participated with him in the
(23:35):
gospel from the first Day until now. They've been with
him in his defense of the gospel, and he's concerned
that they're going to leave him because of the persecution
that's coming. And so they sent him a gift, and
he's thankful for the gift. He's writing this in chapter
four and he says, I'm thankful for the gift, but
(23:57):
I don't need it. I've learned how to get along
with plenty, and I've learned how to get along with nothing.
I'm amply supplied. I can do all things through Christy
strengthens me. He can endure all suffering, he can endure
all hardship because his hope is in resurrection, not in
(24:18):
you know stuff now, life now, prosperity now. And so
once you put it in that context, now the reader,
the Philippians who are to adopt Paul's theology to think
the same way Paul thinks, can say, ah, now I
understand what he's saying, and we too can do all
things through We can endure all things through Christ, who
(24:39):
strengthens us. And that's really the the reality of life,
isn't it that? You know, we were just talking. We
were texting back and forth, and we're getting old here,
and you can see.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm not quite as old as here. We'll continue our
conversation with Dave Klingler. The website is teach Me the
Bible dot Com. Teach Me the Bible dot Com is
also the name of the pipeline we're.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Going to be changing the name of the Gulf of
Mexico to the Gulf of mitt michael Berry, which has
a beautiful.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
David Klingler was once known as a star quarterback Stratford
High school and then at the University of Houston, where
he was a third in the running for the Heisman
Trophy the year that Ty Detmer of Byu won it
and rocket ismael number two at Notre Dame. He was
his first round draft pick for Cincinnati Bengals. And after
his career was over, or as he said, even before that,
(25:39):
he started looking for more meaning in life. And he
wanted to learn the Bible, not to preach, not for
a living, he didn't need to worry about that, but
he wanted to understand and learn the Word of God.
So he went to the Dallas Theological Seminary and ended
up getting his PhD. And now Teach Me the Bible
(26:00):
dot com and the podcast Teach Me the Bible and
with us. Now, let me give you this segment if
you would, And you've got about eight minutes, and I
want you to teach me the Bible of the Birth
of Christ as you would, and I'll give you a
one minute wrap up. But I'm my guessing is you
got your clock down pretty.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Good, all right, So the assignment the Birth of would have.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Been nice if I gave you the lead time, I know.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
But anyway, well that's okay. Well, no, well, it's it's
an Old Testament story, you know it really, the birth
of Christ is an Old Testament story. The whole story
is an anticipation. So we you know, we go back
to creation, we go back to the garden, and you know,
and God has this mandate tor He says, let us
(26:51):
make man in our image and in our lightnings, and
let him rule over the bird's ear and the fish
of the sea, at the beast of the field. He
creates man and gives creates the woman to help her.
They were to be fruitful and multiply image bears. And
the serpent comes into this scene. The antagonists, or the Satan,
(27:11):
we call him. All Satan means hastan. The adversary comes
in and deceives the woman, and the man's there with her,
and they eat of the forbidden tree and they're kicked
out of the garden. They're removed from the tree of life.
And so now man, you know, Adam's name is a
(27:33):
He comes from the Adamah. Adama means ground. He was
raised up out of the ground to never return to it,
to rule over the bird's the ear, the fishescy the
beast and field. And now he's going back to the ground,
and that creates the problem. And it's our problem, right,
we think we've got a lot of problems. Our problem
is you're you know your days are numbered, and you
(27:53):
don't know if today's your last day, and and so
this introduces the problem, and the Lord declares right there
in Genesis three. The Church has always recognized what we
call the proto evangelim, the first proclamation of the Gospel,
that the Lord was going to bring through this woman,
(28:13):
this one who would be born, who would die for sin.
We're reading a little bit in here, but this is
what's developed in the story. And so the whole story
of Genesis is tracking this promise, and really nothing else.
Practice attracts this promise down through the genealogies, through Noah,
through Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, through Israel, through Judah,
(28:36):
through the family line of Paris to the house of
David the King, and this promise is given to him,
and it's going to come through this kingly line of
David and Isaiah. The prophet shows up and condemns the
whole line of David and says, a virgin will give birth,
(28:58):
that I don't need you king, a has I don't
need you, the Davidic line, I don't need is I'll
do it by myself with a little girl. And so
all of creation, all of the hope of the world
waits for God to keep his promises. As Israel is disobedient,
thrown out of the land, dispersed among the nations, and
(29:22):
at the right time to the day, as Daniel the
prophet prophesies, Christ is born. The promised One appears, and
he's proven through his words and works that he is
the one that the whole creation, all of the law
and the prophets and the psalms, was anticipating. And he
(29:44):
walks onto the scene and does exactly what was foretold, crucified, buried, resurrected,
ascends to the right hand of the Father, and and
you know, and that's the gospel story. That's the it's
the story of the births of Christ. So it's say,
thirty nine books building towards the gospels. Everything is pointing
(30:05):
towards this lun and when he's born, it is just,
you know, the hope of the world has appeared. And
you know, and so what.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
You know you mentioned Philippians four thirteen, and how people
use in a kind of a health and wellness. You know,
I can do all things through Christ, who strengthened me.
What are things about Christ's birth or life or I
don't want to get to teachings per se yet because
I want to save that. But what are things about
Christ's life that you think are not understood or widely misunderstood?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, I think that the from the very beginning, you know,
you think about Job and Job's friends. This it's this
theology that says, if you serve the Lord, or serve
God or whatever it is, you'll be blessed. Now you say, well,
that doesn't make any sense. It certainly didn't work for Paul.
It didn't work. I mean, you go back to the
(31:03):
very beginning of the of the Bible of Cain and Abel.
You know, Abel was the righteous one, but Cain kills Abel.
I mean, it didn't work for Abel. It didn't work
for Jesus, it didn't work for the prophets Paul. So
Paul is going to say things like all who desire
to be godly in Christ, Jesus will suffer, will be persecuted.
And so this was Jesus's life, and so often I
(31:29):
think that, and we kind of learned this through through
church history and our unique American experience, that we've westernized
the gospel and americanized it so that the means by
which you can experience the American dream is through Christ.
(31:50):
He will help you, you know, achieve all you want
to achieve. I know the plans I have for you,
declares the Lord of future and hope. And so we
go in there, we grab that verse and jerk it
out at and we make it about us. And and
so you know, Christ came as a suffering servant to
lay down his life for sin, and I don't think
(32:12):
that we focus on that near enough and call believers.
And in the early Church first few centuries, they viewed
suffering martyrdom as part of discipleship, to deny yourself and
to take up your cross, and it was very real
to them. But once the you know, Christianity kind of
(32:37):
becomes the state religion, or at least the accepted religion,
persecution ends and those verses kind of go away, and
they're uncomfortable, and now you know, it's yeah, and it
becomes a means by which we can achieve.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
And we we we thank Jesus because we won the game.
And I always think, well, does that mean the Lord
didn't care for the other team? You know, there's this
idea that you know, if I, if I chuck up
a deuce after the game, you know, then God will
favor me with victories and awards and all those things.
And it's always it's always been interesting that that's that's
(33:15):
almost this this. I don't know that that one's always
bothered me a bit more than the others. I don't
really know why David Klingler is our guest.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
He is.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
He is the man behind, along with a team around him,
of teach me the Bible dot Com and then teach
Me the Bible dot Com podcast, which, like every other podcast,
is free and accessible and a great thing to listen
to as you're driving across the country or just driving home.
And he'll be our guest for more.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I mean
David Kleiner as our guest. He resides in the Greater
Brinham area. Now. His son's the head football coach at
Somerville High School. His other son is the offensive coordinator there.
You probably remember the name if you've been in Houston
or followed football for very long. He was a star
quarterback at the University of Houston in the early nineties.
(00:20):
He was third runner up for second runner up for
the Heisman Trophy. First round draft pick of the Cincinnati
Bengals ended up going to the Raiders, but his elbow
was blown by then and came home and decided he
really wanted to learn the Bible, and now he teaches
others and teaches people how to learn the Bible. He,
(00:40):
of course, in the meantime, went and got a PhD
at Seminary in theology. David, let me ask you a question.
You were talking earlier about theological studies and the types
of people who go there. I have heard it said
of people I've known who were Theologians that went to
Harvard Divinity's School, that there aren't actually any Christians there,
(01:03):
that it's as if it's sort of like you go
to a literature school and there's no writers there that
there are people who reduce it to something that does
not involve any faith. Do you find that to be
the case.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, well, yeah, we have in our desire to make
the Bible more acceptable because of what we were talking
in the last session that you know, the Bible calls
to suffering. You know, James is going to say, considered,
(01:37):
all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials knowing
that the testing of your faith works for endurance, and
let endurance have it. That's not fun talk right suffering,
you know. And so in our desire to make the
Bible more appealing, less offensive, more tolerant, more all accepting,
(02:00):
we water down the Gospel, We water down the teachings
of the Bible. And it's all around us today. But
it's not just today. That's always been the case, Paul,
from the very beginning. The all of the letters that
we see in the New Testament. We're actually in we're
having a conference coming up in March fourteenth and fifteenth
(02:22):
where we're going to talk about the letters. But all
of the letters in the Bible, whether it's Romans or
Ephesians or Galatians or whatever it is, these were letters
written to people or to the church to address theological
issues that have come up that are causing people to change,
to compromise. And so every school Princeton, Harvard, so many
(02:46):
of our great schools, Yale, they all began as theological institutions.
And unfortunately we tend to wander from the faith. And
it wouldn't surprise me if even schools that have historically
been really good Dallas Seminary or you know, all of
(03:07):
these denominations, we're seeing it. They all wander from the
faith and compromise, often under the guise of being tolerant
and more loving. But what happens is we we change
the definitions right of these words. And you see it
even in constitutional law and government and these types of things,
that if you're allowed to change the definitions, you can
(03:29):
make it mean whatever you want, right, And so I
see it's.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
The ultimate O. Right, that's what new speakers about. He
gave us the tools to understand this, that words have meaning,
and that if you need to change concepts, you simply
change words and change meaning. And it's very powerful. You
made a reference to the church, and I'm never you know,
people like to paint with a broad brush and refer
(03:53):
to the black community as if all black people live
in a certain neighborhood and make the same amount of
money and do the same things. And it's just not true.
And so I'm going to paint with a bit of
a broadbrush. But when you look at the church today,
organized Christianity in the form most of us would identify with,
where do you see that as compared to where it was?
(04:15):
And what would you most like to change?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I tell you know, when we walk down that that's
a great question. We walk down the trail of church history.
And one of the things that we're doing at our church,
Champion Fellowship and Brenham is we are I'm helping us
think through the reality the distinction between the church or
a church. A church is simply a gathering of believers,
(04:42):
and so you know, and so once a you know,
a group of believers gathers, we can call it a church.
But the Body of Christ, the Body of Christ, is
all believers in all places, in all times. At the
end of the story, people from every nation, every tribe,
every people, every tongue. This is the Body of Christ.
And we have so divided the Body of Christ. We're
(05:04):
so you know, we have factions Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist, UH.
I prefer to just.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Refer to it as Southern Baptist. And the non Christians,
well that's me.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, that we're the only ones who are who are saved, right,
We're the only ones who are in And and I
love what Paul says to the Corinthians. You know that
this is UH, you know, very early one of UH,
one of the early letters that Paul writes. And there's
divisions in the church at Corinth And and they've divided
over following. Some of them are following Paul, some of
(05:46):
them are following Apollos, who's the pastor of the church there.
Some of them are following Peter, who's the leader of
the of the Jews and the church in Jerusalem. And
and I love what he says. He says, you know,
I hear that there are divisions among you. Some are
saying I'm of Paul, or I'm of Apollos, or I'm
of Peter or of Christ. And then he asked this question,
(06:08):
was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized in
the name of Paul? I thank god I didn't baptize
any of you, so none of you could say you
were baptized in my name right. And then he goes
on to say, and this is where the it kind
of makes us, you know, Baptists uncomfortable. He says, the
Lord didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.
(06:29):
And so he goes on to explain in this whole
letter that everything he does is to build up the
body of Christ. And so we do great error when
we fail to recognize that all believers in all places,
in all times, in all churches, and none of us
have the you know, we're all heretics in the sense
(06:52):
that we all believe false doctrine, and we just don't
know what the false doctrine is that we're believing. And
so that's what we've got to go back to the
scriptures all of the time to make sure that what
we're saying is So we've got to be bereans. And
I think that you've got to have a lot of
humility when you come to the scriptures and put yourself
(07:12):
under the authority of the text, not under the authority
of a teacher, a Bible teacher, a ministry, even if
it's teach me the Bible or whatever it is. We
all have to answer to the Lord. And so so
you know, the church has always been in some ways
a mess because it's human. Church is the bride of Christ, sure,
(07:35):
and the church is the bride of Christ, and He
gave himself for the church.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And so so one of the things that David Cliler
is our guest, I'm going to ask him in his
teach Me the Bible dot com and teach Me the
Bible podcast sort of way to teach me about one
of my favorite people in the Bible, and that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Is the apostle.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Part to teach me think what she said in Spinish.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I just said it's the judge in Spanish, because I
feel that she forgets that we're Hispanic and that we're
the people.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
That she targeted for a vote. The Michael Barry Show.
David Klingler is our guest. You may remember him as
a football star. He went on to get his PhD
in theological studies with an expertise in the Old Testament.
You can go to teach Me the Bible dot com
in a very accessible way to learn about the Bible.
He also has a podcast. Those of you always looking
(08:28):
for a fun new podcast, and he's our guest of
David Klingler. If you would teach me the Bible about Paul.
Saul of Tarsus, one of my favorite, one of my
favorite people in all the Bible is Uh Saul of
Tarsus because of well, for many reasons. But anyway, teach
(08:49):
me the Bible about Paul.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Uh. What an You know, Paul was a he's a pharisee. Uh.
You know, kind of lists his credentials in Philippians chapter three.
You know, he was of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised
on the eighth day. He was steadfast in his holding
to Judaism, persecution of the church. And and so the
(09:15):
thing about Paul is he knew the Old Testament scriptures
stone cold. I mean, he knew, he knew the Bible.
He knew the Old Testament scriptures. And when he comes
to Christ, it just changes everything for him. Uh. And
and so he wholly devotes himself to the Lord. And
and we were talking in the last segment about the Corinthians,
(09:35):
and and and and everything that he does is for
the building up of the body of Christ. He explains
that we are members of one another. And I love,
How he how he sets that out that John says
the same thing. It's all bringing a little bit of
John here in first John. But how can you say
(09:55):
that you love Christ and you haven't seen Uh, none
of us have seen Jesus. None of us have heard
his voice. We talk about you know, we use that
kind of language. You know, I've heard the voice, but
you know, but how would you know? Right, Paul was
going to say, Look, I don't care if an angel
appears in you know, in the room. If if someone
appears to you, If an angel appears to you and
(10:17):
presents a gospel different than that which I preached, let
him be a curse. And you know. And so if
we haven't seen Jesus, don't tell me about your love
of Jesus. Show me your love of Jesus through your
love of his body. That is the Church, the body
of Christ. And so we need to be about building
up the body of christis everything he does. He sacrifices
(10:38):
his whole life, all his credentials, to build up the
Body of Christ, to take the gospel to the gentiles.
And and boy, he is bold, I mean unbelievably bold,
and ultimately goes to his death because of it, just
an amazing character.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
What I find interesting is that perhaps the verses that
that I have most really enjoyed diving into and really
taking them apart. I like to put take things apart
and put them back together, not physical things, but people
and in literature and the Bible. And I find that
with Paul's letters, I do that. And I didn't know
(11:22):
until later that these were letters, that this was a
sort of an untraditional, unconventional portion of the Bible. How
do you think that affects the books that by that
that that are attributed to Paul because they were a
letter formed from prison to those those peoples, those churches.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Well, I think that that if we if we first
remember that they're letters, you'll interpret them correctly. Right we
go in. Let's take for example, Paul's letter to Timothy.
He writes two letters to Timothy, and he's going to
say things. He's going to tell Timothy to do things
like look out for ali Xander the coppers myth. Well,
(12:02):
I'm not worried about Alexander the coppers myth, you know.
And and he says, bring me my cloak imparchments before winter.
And I'm not trying to find Paul before winter. I'm
not praying for Paul, you know, Paul's you know, but
he tells Timothy to do other things that are very
applicable to today. And and so when we remember that Paul,
(12:23):
for example, was writing to the Romans, the Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians,
whoever was to address specific issues that had arisen in
that congregation or with thy laymen, or or with with Timothy,
or in the church at Thesalonaika, then we can read
them and it makes sense. We see what he was
doing back then, and we can draw implications for today
(12:45):
because we're still in the church today and the you know,
the church still has its struggles, and the world is
still the world nothing as new, as Solomon would say
in Ecclesiastices, there's nothing new under the sun. It's the issues.
People are still pursuing wealth in a big name and
(13:05):
fame and fortune, and then they die and it's all vanity.
David Klingler is our guest.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
David, let me ask you, you know, having gone to
law school and then getting another law degree. When people
ask me questions about, you know, how do I learn
more about the law, I often say that you have
to begin by unlearning many things that were told to
you that are not true because they create blocks, and
how you understand, you know, how our legal code is written,
(13:34):
and how how our legal code is interpreted and applied
and precedent and case law and all these sorts of things.
What are some things that you think corrupt our general
understanding of the Bible in a conventional sense that you
have to undo to go in with a properly open mind.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Boy, what a great question. I think that our denominationalism
doesn't help. Our church history doesn't help, Our Americanism doesn't help.
And I'm you know, look, I I'm profoundly proud of
our our our American history and so many of the
(14:12):
things there. But but when we equate being American with
being Christian, or or being whatever it is with being Christian,
that's that's not helpful. And so, as you said, so
many of the things that we have learned, not only
you know, limit us from understanding the Bible.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
David Klingler is our guest. We had a momentary glitch.
The devil was was working on our phone lines and
took it down for a moment. But yeah, throughout his
career he has uh He has been perseverant and resilient,
if if nothing else, and and he will continue.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
To be.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Just a second before we go to a quick break,
and then we'll move on to the next thing. What
do you love most about what you do now in
addition to being a dad and a husband and a friend.
But this, I don't want to call it a job
per se. But what do you love most about it.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
To watch people understand the Bible. It was the thing
that drove me. And in the Bible doesn't need to
be hard to understand. The churches don't need to be
set against each other. We need to all be pursuing truth.
And and so when we understand the Bible becomes so simple,
and it's fun to watch students they're you know, the
(15:31):
kind of that aha moment. They they get it, they
understand it, and and it's just fun to watch. And
then they you watch how it changes their lives and
they devote themselves to very different things than they had before.
And and so that's what I love, That's what I do.
I'm thankful for the ministry of teaching the Bible. There's
so many great people behind that thing and make that go.
(15:52):
I just say on the in the microphone, what I
teach at at the seminary, But just so thankful to
be a part of that, and that the Lord can
use any of us. You know, you don't have to
be a retired football player with a big name. The
Lord has always used the smallest.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
No, that's a talent and it's good that you do
use it. David Klingley Clingler is our guest more than comm.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And you listen to the Michael Berry Show. Good not.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
David Klingler is our guest, former star quarterback. Now Teach
Me the Bible dot com or you can listen to
the podcast Teach Me the about You were talking about
the Book of John and and we're going to to
get to Paul's letters, I hope at some point, because
that's something that's always appealed to me. But you were
talking about we're talking about learning the Bible, and I'm
(16:49):
talking as much about self taught, which appears to be
a lot of what y'all do. And I love that
you're not trying to build an audience for yourself. You're
trying to It appears to me my study of what
y'all have done is to get people engage themselves in
a self help study of the Bible. And I love
that approach. But anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, our mission is to help the people of God
understand the Word of God. But you know the Gospel
of John, John is writing to convince the reader that
Jesus is the Christ. Well, if I ask students, and
I do this all the time in seminary, okay, well
what does that mean? And they look at me with
a blank stare, like, I don't know. Like Jesus Christ right,
(17:31):
Like you know, if he was wearing a jersey on
the back of his jersey, it would say Christ, like
his last name. Well, that's not that's a title. He's
the anointed king of Israel, proven through what he does,
through what he says. His words and works match those
of the Old Testament. So he's not somebody because even
(17:55):
John says so. Jesus even says in the Gospel of John,
and interact with the Pharisees. You know, you search the
scriptures because then you think you have eternal life. But
it's these that speak of me. And of course he's
talking about the Old Testament that all of creation was
waiting for this one to appear, and so that anticipation
is built in the Old Testament, and then you know,
(18:18):
I love how Matthew presents it. You know, the hope
of the world walked onto the scene in human form.
John says that that the Word became flesh and dwelt
among us talking about John and the other disciples, and
we beheld his glory, we saw him, we touched him
our hands, and we stuck our fingers in those holes,
(18:41):
and so we proclaimed to you. And so it's just
such an amazing story that corresponds to history. I mean,
you look at the world around us and even current
events today and what's happening, and this whole thing is
heading towards the end of God's redempt of his tree.
And you know, so the reason why it's so relevant
(19:03):
to us is because you're in it. We're all in it,
you know. And so so it's just such a compelling
the story to me, that corresponds to life, to all
of our lives. And so I think it's something that
everybody needs to know for themselves.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That's a fascinating approach. You know, I have experienced something
over the years, and I'm sure you have tenfold, and
that is that if I have someone on to talk
about the Bible, or if I myself make a statement
about my interpretation of something. There are a certain number
of people who it's the one upsmanship of social media.
(19:44):
They can't help themselves, but they love to tell you
how that's wrong because their pastor said this, this or this,
and I equate it to this. If I were to
go on Facebook today, just a toxic can be a
toxic place, but it could also be a wonderful place
because we get some things done there kind of crowd sourcing.
I were to say, I went to David Klingler's home
(20:04):
this weekend and he made burgers for us, and they
were wonderful, delicious burgers with cheese and meat and mayonnaise
and bread. I would out of the thousand people that
would respond, fifty of them would be no, my brother's
burgers were better, even though they had never eaten your
There's just this desire to kind of want to do.
You find people to be after reviewing the podcast, A
(20:26):
certain number of them to be combat combative, argumentative, because
I find that the Bible brings that out in some
people worse than even sports fandom.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah there, yeah, politics, you deal with it. You know
it's politics religion. Those are areas in sports, right, politics
for religion and sports. So you know, those are the
kind of the three areas where everybody is entitled to
their own opinion, you know. And you can't tell me
any different, but you know, but again what motivates me.
(20:59):
I liked the example of the Bareans that that Lukera
courds in the Book of Acts. You know that they're
commended for going back to the scriptures to see if
these things are so? And you know, and so I
tell my students all the time, don't listen to me.
I don't want you to. You know, when you stand
before the Lord and say, well, doctor Klingler said, well,
(21:22):
you know what I tell him. Klingler's a moron. He's
been a more in his whole life. He's just trying
to help you see what the scriptures say. So let's
go back to see if these things are are so.
And so often our interpretation of some verse doesn't make
any sense. You know. I hear the same ones all
(21:42):
the time. I can do all things through Christy's strengthens me.
Well think about that for a second. Can you what
can you actually do through Christy strengthens you can you
leap tall buildings with a single bound or mentoring a
kid in high school and he had that Philippians four
thirteen on his letter Jack and his name is Casey,
And I said, Casey, what's that phil four thirteen? And
(22:05):
he looked at me like, well, aren't you supposed to
be a Bible teacher. Aren't you supposed to know this?
He said, I can do all things through christ who
strengthens me. I said, but like what? And he got
this paniced look on his face, like I'm not so
sure now that you you pressed me on it. And
so I said, well, how much do you bench pressed?
And he said, well, you know about three fifteen, so
that's pretty good for high school kid. I said, how
(22:26):
much you bench pressed with Christy's strengthened? Yet he says, well,
I guess about the same. I said, what does that mean?
And notice that Paul's writing to the Philippians and he
doesn't say, y'all can do all things through Christy strengthens y'all.
He could have said that, So what does he mean
when he says what he says? So? Really? Yeah, Well,
(22:50):
what he's talking about in the whole letter is that
he was concerned for these Philippians because you know the
the it's a very alive in wealth theology today that
if you serve the Lord, right, if you serve whatever
God it is you serve, he will bless you physically
and financially. Now, and of course that's not the gospel,
(23:13):
that's not Paul's reality. Paul had everything you know that
a religious leader would desire when he was a Pharisee.
But he comes to Christ and now all of a
sudden he's being beaten and persecuted and shipwrecked, and everywhere
he goes it's turning terrible for him. And he's concerned
with these Philippians who have participated with him in the
(23:35):
gospel from the first Day until now. They've been with
him in his defense of the gospel, and he's concerned
that they're going to leave him because of the persecution
that's coming. And so they sent him a gift, and
he's thankful for the gift. He's writing this in chapter
four and he says, I'm thankful for the gift, but
(23:57):
I don't need it. I've learned how to get along
with plenty, and I've learned how to get along with nothing.
I'm amply supplied. I can do all things through Christy
strengthens me. He can endure all suffering, he can endure
all hardship because his hope is in resurrection, not in
(24:18):
you know stuff now, life now, prosperity now. And so
once you put it in that context, now the reader,
the Philippians who are to adopt Paul's theology to think
the same way Paul thinks, can say, ah, now I
understand what he's saying, and we too can do all
things through We can endure all things through Christ, who
(24:39):
strengthens us. And that's really the the reality of life,
isn't it that? You know, we were just talking. We
were texting back and forth, and we're getting old here,
and you can see.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm not quite as old as here. We'll continue our
conversation with Dave Klingler. The website is teach Me the
Bible dot Com. Teach Me the Bible dot Com is
also the name of the pipeline we're.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Going to be changing the name of the Gulf of
Mexico to the Gulf of mitt michael Berry, which has
a beautiful.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
David Klingler was once known as a star quarterback Stratford
High school and then at the University of Houston, where
he was a third in the running for the Heisman
Trophy the year that Ty Detmer of Byu won it
and rocket ismael number two at Notre Dame. He was
his first round draft pick for Cincinnati Bengals. And after
his career was over, or as he said, even before that,
(25:39):
he started looking for more meaning in life. And he
wanted to learn the Bible, not to preach, not for
a living, he didn't need to worry about that, but
he wanted to understand and learn the Word of God.
So he went to the Dallas Theological Seminary and ended
up getting his PhD. And now Teach Me the Bible
(26:00):
dot com and the podcast Teach Me the Bible and
with us. Now, let me give you this segment if
you would, And you've got about eight minutes, and I
want you to teach me the Bible of the Birth
of Christ as you would, and I'll give you a
one minute wrap up. But I'm my guessing is you
got your clock down pretty.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Good, all right, So the assignment the Birth of would have.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Been nice if I gave you the lead time, I know.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
But anyway, well that's okay. Well, no, well, it's it's
an Old Testament story, you know it really, the birth
of Christ is an Old Testament story. The whole story
is an anticipation. So we you know, we go back
to creation, we go back to the garden, and you know,
and God has this mandate tor He says, let us
(26:51):
make man in our image and in our lightnings, and
let him rule over the bird's ear and the fish
of the sea, at the beast of the field. He
creates man and gives creates the woman to help her.
They were to be fruitful and multiply image bears. And
the serpent comes into this scene. The antagonists, or the Satan,
(27:11):
we call him. All Satan means hastan. The adversary comes
in and deceives the woman, and the man's there with her,
and they eat of the forbidden tree and they're kicked
out of the garden. They're removed from the tree of life.
And so now man, you know, Adam's name is a
(27:33):
He comes from the Adamah. Adama means ground. He was
raised up out of the ground to never return to it,
to rule over the bird's the ear, the fishescy the
beast and field. And now he's going back to the ground,
and that creates the problem. And it's our problem, right,
we think we've got a lot of problems. Our problem
is you're you know your days are numbered, and you
(27:53):
don't know if today's your last day, and and so
this introduces the problem, and the Lord declares right there
in Genesis three. The Church has always recognized what we
call the proto evangelim, the first proclamation of the Gospel,
that the Lord was going to bring through this woman,
(28:13):
this one who would be born, who would die for sin.
We're reading a little bit in here, but this is
what's developed in the story. And so the whole story
of Genesis is tracking this promise, and really nothing else.
Practice attracts this promise down through the genealogies, through Noah,
through Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, through Israel, through Judah,
(28:36):
through the family line of Paris to the house of
David the King, and this promise is given to him,
and it's going to come through this kingly line of
David and Isaiah. The prophet shows up and condemns the
whole line of David and says, a virgin will give birth,
(28:58):
that I don't need you king, a has I don't
need you, the Davidic line, I don't need is I'll
do it by myself with a little girl. And so
all of creation, all of the hope of the world
waits for God to keep his promises. As Israel is disobedient,
thrown out of the land, dispersed among the nations, and
(29:22):
at the right time to the day, as Daniel the
prophet prophesies, Christ is born. The promised One appears, and
he's proven through his words and works that he is
the one that the whole creation, all of the law
and the prophets and the psalms, was anticipating. And he
(29:44):
walks onto the scene and does exactly what was foretold, crucified, buried, resurrected,
ascends to the right hand of the Father, and and
you know, and that's the gospel story. That's the it's
the story of the births of Christ. So it's say,
thirty nine books building towards the gospels. Everything is pointing
(30:05):
towards this lun and when he's born, it is just,
you know, the hope of the world has appeared. And
you know, and so what.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
You know you mentioned Philippians four thirteen, and how people
use in a kind of a health and wellness. You know,
I can do all things through Christ, who strengthened me.
What are things about Christ's birth or life or I
don't want to get to teachings per se yet because
I want to save that. But what are things about
Christ's life that you think are not understood or widely misunderstood?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, I think that the from the very beginning, you know,
you think about Job and Job's friends. This it's this
theology that says, if you serve the Lord, or serve
God or whatever it is, you'll be blessed. Now you say, well,
that doesn't make any sense. It certainly didn't work for Paul.
It didn't work. I mean, you go back to the
(31:03):
very beginning of the of the Bible of Cain and Abel.
You know, Abel was the righteous one, but Cain kills Abel.
I mean, it didn't work for Abel. It didn't work
for Jesus, it didn't work for the prophets Paul. So
Paul is going to say things like all who desire
to be godly in Christ, Jesus will suffer, will be persecuted.
And so this was Jesus's life, and so often I
(31:29):
think that, and we kind of learned this through through
church history and our unique American experience, that we've westernized
the gospel and americanized it so that the means by
which you can experience the American dream is through Christ.
(31:50):
He will help you, you know, achieve all you want
to achieve. I know the plans I have for you,
declares the Lord of future and hope. And so we
go in there, we grab that verse and jerk it
out at and we make it about us. And and
so you know, Christ came as a suffering servant to
lay down his life for sin, and I don't think
(32:12):
that we focus on that near enough and call believers.
And in the early Church first few centuries, they viewed
suffering martyrdom as part of discipleship, to deny yourself and
to take up your cross, and it was very real
to them. But once the you know, Christianity kind of
(32:37):
becomes the state religion, or at least the accepted religion,
persecution ends and those verses kind of go away, and
they're uncomfortable, and now you know, it's yeah, and it
becomes a means by which we can achieve.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
And we we we thank Jesus because we won the game.
And I always think, well, does that mean the Lord
didn't care for the other team? You know, there's this
idea that you know, if I, if I chuck up
a deuce after the game, you know, then God will
favor me with victories and awards and all those things.
And it's always it's always been interesting that that's that's
(33:15):
almost this this. I don't know that that one's always
bothered me a bit more than the others. I don't
really know why David Klingler is our guest.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
He is.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
He is the man behind, along with a team around him,
of teach me the Bible dot Com and then teach
Me the Bible dot Com podcast, which, like every other podcast,
is free and accessible and a great thing to listen
to as you're driving across the country or just driving home.
And he'll be our guest for more.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I mean
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