November 27, 2025 • 30 mins
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm luck and load. The Michael Verie Show is on
the air.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's interesting to be in the course of my life
different things that happened that I notice how we deal
with the concept of accountability and consequences and.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
How they are extolled or forgotten in the common conversation
and in the popular culture. It's really interesting phenomenon to
me because we have a tendency to ignore the idea.
Do whatever you want, damn the consequence. Do what makes
(00:52):
you feel good, do what gives you gratification. I think
gratification is a better word than has this. Happiness is
a silly word. Nobody's walking around and happy. We're all
happy all the time. Test happy, you'd get bored being happy?
(01:13):
You would. Jordan Peterson has really done some important work
on this subject. He's not the first, but he's the
first to take it to such a big audience. And
the idea that he has that he has really popularized
is that the pursuit of happiness per se is a
(01:36):
fool's errand you never actually achieve happiness. Many people are
watching pop culture and they think the Kardashians are happy,
or Diddy Epstein is happy, or Lizo or whoever else,
and then they're shocked to find out that person isn't
(01:57):
happy in this sense that they believe they would be happy.
This euphoria overcoming you at all times warm sensation and
believe it or not, even though that person is their hero.
That person is they would sell off their kidney to
get to go to a concert, to just be part
(02:17):
of a screaming, teeming, massive people cheering that that person
is singing the song they've already heard of them, but
in the same zip code as them. They're also delighted
to learn that those people are usually miserable because they
have been on a journey to the destination of happiness,
(02:38):
and as it turns out, happiness is not neverland. So
that makes him feel good because I may not be happy,
but it turns out that person is supposed to be happy.
He's supposed to be happy, and he's not happy. So
that makes me feel better because I thought he was
just sitting over here just being happy all the time.
But what Jordan Peterson has done I think groundbreaking work
(03:02):
in terms of taking it to the masses. As I say,
it's not the first to come up with this, I
understand this. The idea that happiness is not the pursuit
of man should not be the pursuit of man. It's
a throwaway term. It's a simplistic term that has become
a catch all. In economics, we use the term utility.
(03:25):
It gives some people utility to do this or that.
Doesn't mean they're smiling necessarily. If you hate pedophiles and
you get to be the executioner of pedophiles, doesn't make
you happy to be the executioner, but it gives you utility.
And Rick Warren in twenty twelve, I think it was
(03:48):
wrote The Purpose Driven Life, which I actually think it
was an important book at the time. The idea of
finding per purpose in your life and what you do,
living purposefully, intentionally, knowing why you're here and what you're doing.
(04:10):
And I've come to learn that this is why some people,
I'm going to use that term, are very happy doing
a job when they don't need to work anymore. You know.
The Walmart reader kind of went away. I loved the
Walmart read. I loved the Walmart Reader because so many
of the Walmart readers didn't need to work. They didn't
(04:32):
turn the money down because that's what they used to
buy a cup of coffee while they were there. They
arrived early, they stayed late, they stayed afterwards. They took
their penny off and hung around, or kept their penny on.
They loved to greet people. What a brilliant idea. You
take this cold, soulless warehouse full of junk that people
(04:59):
are coming into to grab, most of which they could
do without, and you put a human face on it,
A real human face. Not a kid on a phone,
not not somebody disinterested, not somebody checking sports scores or
texting their buddies or taking Peter Picks. A real human
(05:21):
being in comfortable shoes, welcoming people into your cold, soulless warehouse.
It was a brilliant a strike, a stroke of brilliance.
It was a brilliant move. I love everything about it.
But what it spoke to in me, which I don't
understand too many years later, was the idea of having purpose.
(05:43):
I have known so many people over the years who
cannot wait to retire, and the moment they retire, they
have the world by the tail, and within a couple
of days they realize they've lost their purpose. Even if
we're was not their purpose, because they're pulling a paycheck,
punch and a clock. They they they've lost their routine,
(06:08):
and in that routine was comfort. You may not like
your job per se, the actual job, but we put
some We put some dressing on it. Right. We put
a writ on the way to your job, you may
stop and get a kalachi, and you really like talking
to the people there at lunch. You might enjoy walking
across the street and talk on the way home. You
(06:29):
might come on.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Laris was just officially.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Endorsed by IRS Agency. Believe the Michael Barry Show. I'd
rather not have that endorsement. We came across something called
who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a future where degrees don't matter.
The author is Kathleen Dulaski or Delaski. Ramon, do you
want me to first try Dulaski and then she corrects
me as Delaski? Or do you want to do Delaski
(06:55):
and she corrects me as Dlaski Dlaski. Okay, We're going
with Delaski till she corrects us. And I'll be honest,
we don't get this excited up. We don't do many guests.
You folks know that, But I was really really interested
in this guest because I love when people think differently,
whether that's the COVID shot or anything else. Kathleen, is
it d'laski or Dulaski.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
D'laski, Oh, we.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Got it, okay, Polish, I presume.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
The name is yeah. I mean, we've been here a
long time, so who knows.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, it'd be okay if you were Polish. I like Poles.
One of my good friends is Polish. Yeah, and the
polls behave very admirably during World War Two. The Polish
underground and the cracking of Enigma is the greatest story
of World War Two never told. But I won't bother
you with all that, so I risk you background. You
are an education and workforce designer and a futurist. That's
always interesting. I'm not one, but I'm fascinated by people
(07:47):
who are. You founded the Education Design Lab in twenty
thirteen to help well, we'll get into that, and for
a decade you were CEO of this lab. And you're
obviously a person who spends a lot of time thinking
on in the aggregate about the big picture of how
we I don't believe that that that college is for
the purpose of getting a degree, or even as much
(08:09):
as learning as developing and growing. The old the old
Yates line that that education is not filling a bucket
but lighting a fire. I am a big believer in
the academy as it once existed. But I'm going to
turn the show over now to you with a few
basic questions. Why have you written this book? What was
the goal in asking the question? Who needs college anymore?
(08:32):
And then you sort of answer that with imagining a
future where degrees don't matter. I'm going to let you
have the rest of the floor for the rest of
the segment.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Well, thank you, and thanks for having me. I love
your story, Michael, It's really it's really compelling about your
family and how you know, people who learn, who love
to learn, should will still have the opportunity to go
to college to go get it for your degree. I mean,
it's the degree is not going away. But I wrote
the book really to try to highlight the fact that
(09:02):
that model, the four year degree model, which has basically,
you know, overtaken all narratives about how how you get
your you know, find your way to the American dream.
It's like the only narrative right now, and yet yet
the model only serves a minority of American adults. You know,
only thirty eight percent of people have a four year degree.
(09:24):
So we need to stop treating it as the only
aspirational brand, you know, to get to success, because you know,
we see what's happening with the resentment building and the
economic divide. You know, some people are calling it the
diploma divide. You know, we have other models that show promise,
like apprenticeships and like short term certificates and certifications and
(09:44):
doop camps, but they can't scale because they don't qualify
for the funding and the prestige that you know that
right now really only colleges enjoy. And so that's why
I wrote the book. I mean, I have my own
personal story with my own children. The model didn't really
work for either of them, and so I was kind
of radicalized, even though I live in an area where
everybody goes to college and you're embarrassed, you know, when
(10:07):
you're at a softball game and you know you're you're
kind of like under your breast in my kids not going,
and so you know that that kind of got me
going even in the first place to start this thing
called the Education Design Lab, which is actually working with
colleges to try to, you know, disrupt themselves and reinvent
their own models. So we can talk about that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Let's talk first about your story. We've got two minutes
left in this segment. So I always like to know
where someone's angle is and all this. I feel like Nixon,
Nixon going to China. I can say that college doesn't
matter because I spent a lot of time in college.
I think it's harder if someone didn't, because then there
may be defensive about it. What was your story?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, I am not the right messenger to be able
to stand it and say you don't need college, because
I like you. I was lucky enough to, you know,
go to both have an undergrad and I did a
master's degree, and I actually, in research in the book
went back to my ancestor, who my great grandfather time seven,
was one of the first graduates of you know that
(11:10):
university that's now under attack, but is the first university, Harvard.
He was the son of an indentured servant, an immigrant,
and he was able to somehow get into Harvard and
pulled his family up to a position of prominence in
colonial America. This is in sixteen seventy three in one generation.
(11:31):
And so I start this. I start the book out
there to kind of demonstrate how college kind of took
a foothold in the lore of, you know, how to
succeed in America right from the very beginning. So you know,
my story is that college was always available to me
and my forefathers, and yet now I feel like we're
in the family like some kids are choosing not to go,
(11:54):
including one of my daughters. One wanted to go, you know,
had neurodivergent issues and ended up getting through it, but
it was a complete, you know, slog and difficult situation,
and they, you know, they helped me see that there
are other ways to succeed number one, but also that
college needs to you know, we need to redesign it
to meet the needs of other folks and have different versions,
(12:16):
Like the degree should just be one version of what
colleges offered. Why can't they offer pership?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You are speaking my language. I love that you've undertaken
this project because somewhere I think that what you're saying
is is very visionary. One moment our guest is Kathleen Dulaski.
The book is who needs college Anymore? Who needs college?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
The government made money off of it. We didn't get
nothing the hard time. To Michael Berry show, it's a day,
I say it's a day. I say it's a day.
I say it's a day. Nath Lee Dlaski is our guest.
He's the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a
future where degrees don't matter. And I would encourage everyone
who is listening to take a step back and ask
(13:00):
mak yourself this question. What should college be if you're
going to spend over over one hundred thousand dollars, which
is crazy, what should be the result at the end.
Many people view it as I'll have a ticket to
punch to get a job. I think that's sad, but okay,
And that's because corporations created this. You have to have
(13:22):
a degree to go to work here, which was really
just a way of saying, I want to pick the
white kids, not the black kids, but I don't know
how to do that. And since the white kids go
to college and the black kids don't, that'd be a
good way to separate. Then the black kids went to
college and they said, oh, what do we do now?
Well about that time, you had DEI. So it didn't matter.
But I honestly think that that was the history behind that.
And you folks know that I'm not one to claim
(13:43):
very much as racism, but I think that was racism.
It was also a way to create a class distinction
because richer kids went to college and poorer kids didn't.
How do we just get the kids who know which
fort to use?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Well?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Will require a college degree? Or should it be an
opportunity to learn and you will come out of there
and you will be very smart. Well, nobody really believes
that's happening. The only people who really have to go
to college. Or if you want to be an engineer,
a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, someone who requires this certificate.
So that's really no different than a plumber and electrician,
just costs a whole lot more and you have toga parties.
(14:15):
But what should be the point of this thing? I mean,
this is a major part of our economy, and so
I would encourage you to open your mind as we
Kathleen and I have this conversation and join in yourself.
What should be the purpose of all this? Should it
just be the buildings that are attached to the football
team and basketball team that we root for because that
seems sort of silly, doesn't it. So Kathleen, let me
(14:37):
let me fast forward from home. Who needs college anymore?
What is give me the four minute ideal? Kathleen is king,
what do you create as a college replacement?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Well, it's I don't want to replace college. I want
to a college an institution to have an umbrella of
let's call them products, right, services that they offer a
continuum of learners and not just the eighteen year olds
who shows up looking for adultification services. Right. They need
(15:08):
they need that maturation process probably more than anything. They
need to learn how to go through the gauntlet, how
to separate back from fiction, how to you know, organize
their thoughts, how to get along with people that they
might not have known existed. Right, So they need a
kind of a boot camp for life and growing up.
But then many other kind A lot of the people
(15:29):
who aren't being served by college are currently are you
people who are older, or people who are single moms,
or they're returning vets, or they're in the neurodivergent spectrum.
And you know, college was not designed to serve them,
but it can other programs serve them. But those other
programs don't have access to the same funding, and that's
what's become you know, kind of very skewed in the system, right.
(15:52):
It's like it's like it makes you realize that it
really is an elitist funding model that we need to,
you know, we needed to. I don't want to say
take apart because I still want, we still need, you know,
people to go all the way through to get a
PhD and be be a cancer researchers. You know, I
don't want to stop that. I don't want to stop engineers,
civil engineers from getting degrees to build bridget We need that.
(16:16):
But you know, the sixty two percent who are being
left behind, which is most of us, let's face it,
most most Americans. They need they need you know, they
need college too, Like why aren't there? Why do they
have to kind of figure out how to work through
a maze and end up often trying and failing to
do this college thing. I mean, so, so I didn't
(16:37):
answer your question, which is what you know, what if
I were king, what would I do? What? What I
advocated in the book is what I call a step
ladder approach, and some community colleges in particular are starting
to do this and we're actually working with a number
in Texas where they you know, you have a short
stack called a micro pathway where you you know, you
(16:58):
get you basically we learn the skills through a couple
of uh, you know, like a boot camp basically for
one job role, right, and then you can go out
and get that job role, and then you can stack
to the next, you know, the next income level to
build your earnings power, you know, often while you're in
that job. So it's the idea that you are earning
and learning and scaffolding up to along your career path
(17:23):
and getting the learning you need along the way. And
there's two reasons why why why we're starting to move
to this and we have to move to this model
for higher education. Number one is people can't afford one
hundred thousand dollars, which is the average cost of a
college degree these days. Four your degree. People can't afford that, right,
So there's opting out and they're sitting on the sidelines.
(17:44):
The second reason is AI right, I mean, and technology,
like the things that you spend those four years learning
are not necessarily useful to the employer when you get
out the door and want to you know, want to
line up and apply for that job. So we need,
you know, we need shorter term learning because you need
to be agile and you need to learn the latest right,
(18:06):
the latest software, the latest cyber thing, the latest technology
in your healthcare job. It's changing so fast that the
four year model is feeling kind of antique.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, it's just so different. You know, we have in
the state of Texas a plumbing crisis or plumber crisis
where plumbers are phasing out and nobody's coming in and
it it requires certification, it requires time on the job.
You know, you go from journeyman and all you know,
from apprentice to journeymen and all this, and we don't
(18:41):
have the master plumbers to a lesser degree, but still
a problem is true of electricians. And these are things
that AI is not going to replace overnight, and so
we've got probably very secure jobs. So what's happening is
the guy who started as a plumber made pretty good
money and built up a plumbing company with twenty plumbers,
and he's making over a million dollars a year and
(19:03):
he has no uh, he has a plumbing license but
no college degree, and so he sends his kid to
college to get a psychology degree, and he's he's folding
shirts at abricronomy and Fitch and and our economy is
our needs aren't being met, and that kid's future is
not being set very well because God knows, Daddy doesn't
want him to get his hands dirty. And I think
(19:24):
that's a real problem. Whereas the people who do go
for a vocational license, that should be a very different experience.
We don't need to go and spend a fortune for
fraternities and toga parties when what you really want to
do is get a life skill and get to work.
And so I think everybody's every journey, I hate the word,
but should be different and a different approach depending on
kind of what you're going to do. I'm fascinated by this,
(19:48):
this study you have. You have really piqued an interest
in me in something I think our society is getting wrong,
and especially a one size fits all because that that's
that's not the answer to this. When do did you
read who Needs College? Anymore? I want say, when did
you write?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I mean, I just finished it like last summer, and
then you know it takes like six months for the
publisher to get it put it together. So it came
out in February, okay this year.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
And worth noting for those of you who are interested
in this, especially because you have children who are in
high school and you're trying to consider what to do
for your c student who's not really interested in school
per se, but you want a good future for them.
The website is who Needs College Anymore? Dot org rg
(20:39):
who Needs College Anymore? Dot org And with that we
will continue our conversation with Kathleen Dulaski. The website is
who Needs College Anymore? Dot org. And I encourage every
family to have this conversation as your kids are growing up.
Don't just go to college because you don't know what
else to do. That's no reason to do in the military,
(21:00):
there's no reason to go to college. That's no reason
to do anything else. Give thought to this, what do
I want to be when I grow up? Who do
I want to be when I grow up? And not
just what job or how much money I want to make,
but what field of study? What passion do you have?
Anyway more? Coming up here? Get people to understand giving
information is not Nick Kat's land Delasteth as our guest.
(21:23):
She's the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a
future where degrees won't matter. Imagine a society giving the
power to confer upon an individual the ticket to punch
to riches. You would be giving all the power to
(21:43):
this unique institution, And a lot of people think that's
what's happening, and it's not. I've known two billionaires very
closely in my life, neither of whom went to college.
I've known other billionaires who didn't graduate from college. So
if riches are your goal, getting a job and working
within a corporate entity is not always the best way
(22:04):
to go about that. But there's so much more in
life than how much you make. It's what you do
and finding a passion for that. Kathleen, how has your
work been received because everybody with a college degree thinks
you're devaluing their college degree.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Well, I don't know. I think at the time that
I chose to raya, which is pretty much now. It
is a kind of wake up call moment. I feel
like ever since the recession from twenty ten college attendance,
college enrollment has been dropping. So community college has lost
a third of their enrollment in the last decade, and
(22:45):
this was even happening well before COVID and then degrees.
I mean, people are not The number of people signing
up for degrees is dropping, and the number of people
signing up to do like certificates and other form short
forms of training is going up. And so you know,
I don't. I don't. Colleges are receiving my message pretty
(23:07):
well because they know they have to change, and they're
like going right to the chapter that's like how can
colleges adapt? And they're looking at you know, the models
that I show there are really around. Okay, if you
if you want to show that you still have an
ROI or a return on investment for your students, you
really need to focus more on helping them, you know,
(23:28):
land them at the front door of their first job,
because as you just said a few minutes ago, that's
exactly what you know, That's what families are expecting to
happen when their kid graduates, is is they you know,
they're going to get a job. And so you know,
how can we connect those dots better? And so I think,
you know, you see a lot of colleges really trying
to start to work on that, and Texas in particular,
(23:51):
you know, I was just at the association with all
the community colleges the annual meeting in Nashville, and some
Texas colleges were presenting and they're explaining that you know,
you've got you've got a new law in Texas called
HB eight, which which is now uh, colleges are being
judged and they're getting funding based upon the outcomes that
(24:12):
they deliver. And by that they mean what kind of
income are students making after they graduate. That's actually being
tracked and Texas is the first state to do this,
and everybody else is watching this. I mean, the other
states are kind of doing versions of them, but they're
doing the most intense version and it's been really interesting
to watch.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
That is uh wow. You know, these are things that
I don't I don't think are talked about widely. There
is so much. I have a son who's a junior,
so he will begin the college application process in the fall,
and I've told both of my sons in the zone.
I'm in the zone. I have a son who's the
freshman's University of Texas, and I've told them, you can
(24:53):
do the military, you can do vocational school, you can
go to college, you can take a gap year and
travel and work around the world as you do it.
It's totally up to you. And both have thus far
chosen college as their route, and I think part of
that is, yeah, that's what their friends are doing. Is
a comfort to that and all that. Just like with
careers and your life partner choice, I think it's important
(25:14):
that you keep an open mind and you look at
you know, you don't just marry the girl who lives
next door or was your high school sweetheart. That may work.
You don't just do the job that your dad did.
That may work, but you know these are going to
have a big impact on your life and your happiness.
So be willing to look at at least know what
all is out there, right, and don't be limited to
(25:38):
the kids who did bring your dad to work day,
because there's a lot there're a lot more careers out there. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, I just wanted to mention I want to with
your son being a University of Texas. So another really
interesting pilot that I feature in the book is the
University of Texas. The whole system is starting to incorporate
the like industry certifications into the degrees, and they're again
they're doing that. You're doing the largest pilot in the
country right now and everybody's watching it, and so you're
(26:08):
you know, they're getting like a Google It certificate or
a cybersecurity certificate. You can get those without going to college.
But at least the college are just saying, wow, we
need to add this value. Yes, where you know, learners
can see the connection between you know, what Google is
going to be asking for in the job interview and
what we we're delivering in the classroom. So they're actually
baking in the certificates that have been created by by companies,
(26:32):
which I think is a great.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Step in the right And let's talk about why they
didn't do it. It wasn't that they lacked the expertise
or the space, or are the students with the interest
in it. It was beneath the university. We are the academy,
we are the Ivory Tower. We don't get down into certificates.
And I think there is now a sort of hey, guys,
(26:54):
there's got to be some value to this. I'm spending
all this money and I need to be able to
have certificates when we get out of this to do
to perform tasks. Especially because you mentioned Google. Google goes
out of their way to hire young people who did
not go to college, and I think that's a wake
up call to the universities.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yes, yes, they have been good about them.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
What is what is the takeaway that people have the
website is who needs college anymore? Dot org to your
theories and ideas that you get the most. What is
the thing that someone says, I hadn't thought about that?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Well, I think, you know, everybody's heard about apprenticeships and
boot camps, but I don't think people realize that we
are suppressing those models by the way that we put
all of our all of our funding eggs in the
in the in the you know sort of college and
college tuition basket, you know, through federal financial aid. You know,
(27:55):
there's like fifty to one is the expenditures on college,
you know, nationally versus supporting college versus apprenticeships. So, you know,
I don't want to suggest to your listeners that they
could just walk out, their kid could walk out and
get a cool apprenticeship, because apprenticeships are are you know,
have long been available in areas light construction, electrician, HVAC,
(28:18):
but they're now becoming available in what you might call
the white collar jobs, but not at scale yet. And
so I don't want to suggest that these are like
ready to go models. We need to push for them,
and states are actually taking the lead right now on that.
And so you can your listeners could go to apprenticeship
dot gov and see, you know, where what apprenticeships are available,
(28:40):
because I mean, that's a great model, and colleges are
now even trying to to bring them in, you know,
to kind of become the the you know, the facilitators
for apprenticeships. And that's cool, you'll see more of that,
but you know, probably not what your kids are in school.
So I don't want to suggest that like these other
models are like easily available to kids right now. They're not,
(29:04):
but we need to make them.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So I have I'm fortunate to have contacts and people
that I could reach out to, but I have had
my kids doing what I would consider apprenticeships, internships, whatever
you want to call it, and I break down the
formal barriers and I say, I just want them to
hang out with you for some period of time a week,
a month, and literally watch you take phone calls, watch
(29:26):
how you spend your day, watch how you spend your hours,
once whore you go to lunch with, and you learn
so much. I learned at the foot of mentors that
I had who were much older than me, who were
willing to invest in me. And I'm a big believer
in that model. I want to say, because I'm up
against the clock. You also mentioned self instruction using YouTube.
(29:47):
I think of how many kids are doing homeschooling now,
and they're doing it all online. And you know, you're
always told you have to go to school to be socialized.
These kids are smart, they're well rounded. I'm thoroughly impressed
by him. I love what you're doing. Kathleen Dlaski. Let's
have you on again. The author of Who Needs College Anymore?
The website is who Needs College Anymore dot org. Thank
(30:09):
you for your time.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Thank you, Michael
I'm luck and load. The Michael Verie Show is on
the air.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's interesting to be in the course of my life
different things that happened that I notice how we deal
with the concept of accountability and consequences and.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
How they are extolled or forgotten in the common conversation
and in the popular culture. It's really interesting phenomenon to
me because we have a tendency to ignore the idea.
Do whatever you want, damn the consequence. Do what makes
(00:52):
you feel good, do what gives you gratification. I think
gratification is a better word than has this. Happiness is
a silly word. Nobody's walking around and happy. We're all
happy all the time. Test happy, you'd get bored being happy?
(01:13):
You would. Jordan Peterson has really done some important work
on this subject. He's not the first, but he's the
first to take it to such a big audience. And
the idea that he has that he has really popularized
is that the pursuit of happiness per se is a
(01:36):
fool's errand you never actually achieve happiness. Many people are
watching pop culture and they think the Kardashians are happy,
or Diddy Epstein is happy, or Lizo or whoever else,
and then they're shocked to find out that person isn't
(01:57):
happy in this sense that they believe they would be happy.
This euphoria overcoming you at all times warm sensation and
believe it or not, even though that person is their hero.
That person is they would sell off their kidney to
get to go to a concert, to just be part
(02:17):
of a screaming, teeming, massive people cheering that that person
is singing the song they've already heard of them, but
in the same zip code as them. They're also delighted
to learn that those people are usually miserable because they
have been on a journey to the destination of happiness,
(02:38):
and as it turns out, happiness is not neverland. So
that makes him feel good because I may not be happy,
but it turns out that person is supposed to be happy.
He's supposed to be happy, and he's not happy. So
that makes me feel better because I thought he was
just sitting over here just being happy all the time.
But what Jordan Peterson has done I think groundbreaking work
(03:02):
in terms of taking it to the masses. As I say,
it's not the first to come up with this, I
understand this. The idea that happiness is not the pursuit
of man should not be the pursuit of man. It's
a throwaway term. It's a simplistic term that has become
a catch all. In economics, we use the term utility.
(03:25):
It gives some people utility to do this or that.
Doesn't mean they're smiling necessarily. If you hate pedophiles and
you get to be the executioner of pedophiles, doesn't make
you happy to be the executioner, but it gives you utility.
And Rick Warren in twenty twelve, I think it was
(03:48):
wrote The Purpose Driven Life, which I actually think it
was an important book at the time. The idea of
finding per purpose in your life and what you do,
living purposefully, intentionally, knowing why you're here and what you're doing.
(04:10):
And I've come to learn that this is why some people,
I'm going to use that term, are very happy doing
a job when they don't need to work anymore. You know.
The Walmart reader kind of went away. I loved the
Walmart read. I loved the Walmart Reader because so many
of the Walmart readers didn't need to work. They didn't
(04:32):
turn the money down because that's what they used to
buy a cup of coffee while they were there. They
arrived early, they stayed late, they stayed afterwards. They took
their penny off and hung around, or kept their penny on.
They loved to greet people. What a brilliant idea. You
take this cold, soulless warehouse full of junk that people
(04:59):
are coming into to grab, most of which they could
do without, and you put a human face on it,
A real human face. Not a kid on a phone,
not not somebody disinterested, not somebody checking sports scores or
texting their buddies or taking Peter Picks. A real human
(05:21):
being in comfortable shoes, welcoming people into your cold, soulless warehouse.
It was a brilliant a strike, a stroke of brilliance.
It was a brilliant move. I love everything about it.
But what it spoke to in me, which I don't
understand too many years later, was the idea of having purpose.
(05:43):
I have known so many people over the years who
cannot wait to retire, and the moment they retire, they
have the world by the tail, and within a couple
of days they realize they've lost their purpose. Even if
we're was not their purpose, because they're pulling a paycheck,
punch and a clock. They they they've lost their routine,
(06:08):
and in that routine was comfort. You may not like
your job per se, the actual job, but we put
some We put some dressing on it. Right. We put
a writ on the way to your job, you may
stop and get a kalachi, and you really like talking
to the people there at lunch. You might enjoy walking
across the street and talk on the way home. You
(06:29):
might come on.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Laris was just officially.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Endorsed by IRS Agency. Believe the Michael Barry Show. I'd
rather not have that endorsement. We came across something called
who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a future where degrees don't matter.
The author is Kathleen Dulaski or Delaski. Ramon, do you
want me to first try Dulaski and then she corrects
me as Delaski? Or do you want to do Delaski
(06:55):
and she corrects me as Dlaski Dlaski. Okay, We're going
with Delaski till she corrects us. And I'll be honest,
we don't get this excited up. We don't do many guests.
You folks know that, But I was really really interested
in this guest because I love when people think differently,
whether that's the COVID shot or anything else. Kathleen, is
it d'laski or Dulaski.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
D'laski, Oh, we.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Got it, okay, Polish, I presume.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
The name is yeah. I mean, we've been here a
long time, so who knows.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, it'd be okay if you were Polish. I like Poles.
One of my good friends is Polish. Yeah, and the
polls behave very admirably during World War Two. The Polish
underground and the cracking of Enigma is the greatest story
of World War Two never told. But I won't bother
you with all that, so I risk you background. You
are an education and workforce designer and a futurist. That's
always interesting. I'm not one, but I'm fascinated by people
(07:47):
who are. You founded the Education Design Lab in twenty
thirteen to help well, we'll get into that, and for
a decade you were CEO of this lab. And you're
obviously a person who spends a lot of time thinking
on in the aggregate about the big picture of how
we I don't believe that that that college is for
the purpose of getting a degree, or even as much
(08:09):
as learning as developing and growing. The old the old
Yates line that that education is not filling a bucket
but lighting a fire. I am a big believer in
the academy as it once existed. But I'm going to
turn the show over now to you with a few
basic questions. Why have you written this book? What was
the goal in asking the question? Who needs college anymore?
(08:32):
And then you sort of answer that with imagining a
future where degrees don't matter. I'm going to let you
have the rest of the floor for the rest of
the segment.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Well, thank you, and thanks for having me. I love
your story, Michael, It's really it's really compelling about your
family and how you know, people who learn, who love
to learn, should will still have the opportunity to go
to college to go get it for your degree. I mean,
it's the degree is not going away. But I wrote
the book really to try to highlight the fact that
(09:02):
that model, the four year degree model, which has basically,
you know, overtaken all narratives about how how you get
your you know, find your way to the American dream.
It's like the only narrative right now, and yet yet
the model only serves a minority of American adults. You know,
only thirty eight percent of people have a four year degree.
(09:24):
So we need to stop treating it as the only
aspirational brand, you know, to get to success, because you know,
we see what's happening with the resentment building and the
economic divide. You know, some people are calling it the
diploma divide. You know, we have other models that show promise,
like apprenticeships and like short term certificates and certifications and
(09:44):
doop camps, but they can't scale because they don't qualify
for the funding and the prestige that you know that
right now really only colleges enjoy. And so that's why
I wrote the book. I mean, I have my own
personal story with my own children. The model didn't really
work for either of them, and so I was kind
of radicalized, even though I live in an area where
everybody goes to college and you're embarrassed, you know, when
(10:07):
you're at a softball game and you know you're you're
kind of like under your breast in my kids not going,
and so you know that that kind of got me
going even in the first place to start this thing
called the Education Design Lab, which is actually working with
colleges to try to, you know, disrupt themselves and reinvent
their own models. So we can talk about that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Let's talk first about your story. We've got two minutes
left in this segment. So I always like to know
where someone's angle is and all this. I feel like Nixon,
Nixon going to China. I can say that college doesn't
matter because I spent a lot of time in college.
I think it's harder if someone didn't, because then there
may be defensive about it. What was your story?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, I am not the right messenger to be able
to stand it and say you don't need college, because
I like you. I was lucky enough to, you know,
go to both have an undergrad and I did a
master's degree, and I actually, in research in the book
went back to my ancestor, who my great grandfather time seven,
was one of the first graduates of you know that
(11:10):
university that's now under attack, but is the first university, Harvard.
He was the son of an indentured servant, an immigrant,
and he was able to somehow get into Harvard and
pulled his family up to a position of prominence in
colonial America. This is in sixteen seventy three in one generation.
(11:31):
And so I start this. I start the book out
there to kind of demonstrate how college kind of took
a foothold in the lore of, you know, how to
succeed in America right from the very beginning. So you know,
my story is that college was always available to me
and my forefathers, and yet now I feel like we're
in the family like some kids are choosing not to go,
(11:54):
including one of my daughters. One wanted to go, you know,
had neurodivergent issues and ended up getting through it, but
it was a complete, you know, slog and difficult situation,
and they, you know, they helped me see that there
are other ways to succeed number one, but also that
college needs to you know, we need to redesign it
to meet the needs of other folks and have different versions,
(12:16):
Like the degree should just be one version of what
colleges offered. Why can't they offer pership?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You are speaking my language. I love that you've undertaken
this project because somewhere I think that what you're saying
is is very visionary. One moment our guest is Kathleen Dulaski.
The book is who needs college Anymore? Who needs college?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
The government made money off of it. We didn't get
nothing the hard time. To Michael Berry show, it's a day,
I say it's a day. I say it's a day.
I say it's a day. Nath Lee Dlaski is our guest.
He's the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a
future where degrees don't matter. And I would encourage everyone
who is listening to take a step back and ask
(13:00):
mak yourself this question. What should college be if you're
going to spend over over one hundred thousand dollars, which
is crazy, what should be the result at the end.
Many people view it as I'll have a ticket to
punch to get a job. I think that's sad, but okay,
And that's because corporations created this. You have to have
(13:22):
a degree to go to work here, which was really
just a way of saying, I want to pick the
white kids, not the black kids, but I don't know
how to do that. And since the white kids go
to college and the black kids don't, that'd be a
good way to separate. Then the black kids went to
college and they said, oh, what do we do now?
Well about that time, you had DEI. So it didn't matter.
But I honestly think that that was the history behind that.
And you folks know that I'm not one to claim
(13:43):
very much as racism, but I think that was racism.
It was also a way to create a class distinction
because richer kids went to college and poorer kids didn't.
How do we just get the kids who know which
fort to use?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Well?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Will require a college degree? Or should it be an
opportunity to learn and you will come out of there
and you will be very smart. Well, nobody really believes
that's happening. The only people who really have to go
to college. Or if you want to be an engineer,
a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, someone who requires this certificate.
So that's really no different than a plumber and electrician,
just costs a whole lot more and you have toga parties.
(14:15):
But what should be the point of this thing? I mean,
this is a major part of our economy, and so
I would encourage you to open your mind as we
Kathleen and I have this conversation and join in yourself.
What should be the purpose of all this? Should it
just be the buildings that are attached to the football
team and basketball team that we root for because that
seems sort of silly, doesn't it. So Kathleen, let me
(14:37):
let me fast forward from home. Who needs college anymore?
What is give me the four minute ideal? Kathleen is king,
what do you create as a college replacement?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Well, it's I don't want to replace college. I want
to a college an institution to have an umbrella of
let's call them products, right, services that they offer a
continuum of learners and not just the eighteen year olds
who shows up looking for adultification services. Right. They need
(15:08):
they need that maturation process probably more than anything. They
need to learn how to go through the gauntlet, how
to separate back from fiction, how to you know, organize
their thoughts, how to get along with people that they
might not have known existed. Right, So they need a
kind of a boot camp for life and growing up.
But then many other kind A lot of the people
(15:29):
who aren't being served by college are currently are you
people who are older, or people who are single moms,
or they're returning vets, or they're in the neurodivergent spectrum.
And you know, college was not designed to serve them,
but it can other programs serve them. But those other
programs don't have access to the same funding, and that's
what's become you know, kind of very skewed in the system, right.
(15:52):
It's like it's like it makes you realize that it
really is an elitist funding model that we need to,
you know, we needed to. I don't want to say
take apart because I still want, we still need, you know,
people to go all the way through to get a
PhD and be be a cancer researchers. You know, I
don't want to stop that. I don't want to stop engineers,
civil engineers from getting degrees to build bridget We need that.
(16:16):
But you know, the sixty two percent who are being
left behind, which is most of us, let's face it,
most most Americans. They need they need you know, they
need college too, Like why aren't there? Why do they
have to kind of figure out how to work through
a maze and end up often trying and failing to
do this college thing. I mean, so, so I didn't
(16:37):
answer your question, which is what you know, what if
I were king, what would I do? What? What I
advocated in the book is what I call a step
ladder approach, and some community colleges in particular are starting
to do this and we're actually working with a number
in Texas where they you know, you have a short
stack called a micro pathway where you you know, you
(16:58):
get you basically we learn the skills through a couple
of uh, you know, like a boot camp basically for
one job role, right, and then you can go out
and get that job role, and then you can stack
to the next, you know, the next income level to
build your earnings power, you know, often while you're in
that job. So it's the idea that you are earning
and learning and scaffolding up to along your career path
(17:23):
and getting the learning you need along the way. And
there's two reasons why why why we're starting to move
to this and we have to move to this model
for higher education. Number one is people can't afford one
hundred thousand dollars, which is the average cost of a
college degree these days. Four your degree. People can't afford that, right,
So there's opting out and they're sitting on the sidelines.
(17:44):
The second reason is AI right, I mean, and technology,
like the things that you spend those four years learning
are not necessarily useful to the employer when you get
out the door and want to you know, want to
line up and apply for that job. So we need,
you know, we need shorter term learning because you need
to be agile and you need to learn the latest right,
(18:06):
the latest software, the latest cyber thing, the latest technology
in your healthcare job. It's changing so fast that the
four year model is feeling kind of antique.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, it's just so different. You know, we have in
the state of Texas a plumbing crisis or plumber crisis
where plumbers are phasing out and nobody's coming in and
it it requires certification, it requires time on the job.
You know, you go from journeyman and all you know,
from apprentice to journeymen and all this, and we don't
(18:41):
have the master plumbers to a lesser degree, but still
a problem is true of electricians. And these are things
that AI is not going to replace overnight, and so
we've got probably very secure jobs. So what's happening is
the guy who started as a plumber made pretty good
money and built up a plumbing company with twenty plumbers,
and he's making over a million dollars a year and
(19:03):
he has no uh, he has a plumbing license but
no college degree, and so he sends his kid to
college to get a psychology degree, and he's he's folding
shirts at abricronomy and Fitch and and our economy is
our needs aren't being met, and that kid's future is
not being set very well because God knows, Daddy doesn't
want him to get his hands dirty. And I think
(19:24):
that's a real problem. Whereas the people who do go
for a vocational license, that should be a very different experience.
We don't need to go and spend a fortune for
fraternities and toga parties when what you really want to
do is get a life skill and get to work.
And so I think everybody's every journey, I hate the word,
but should be different and a different approach depending on
kind of what you're going to do. I'm fascinated by this,
(19:48):
this study you have. You have really piqued an interest
in me in something I think our society is getting wrong,
and especially a one size fits all because that that's
that's not the answer to this. When do did you
read who Needs College? Anymore? I want say, when did
you write?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I mean, I just finished it like last summer, and
then you know it takes like six months for the
publisher to get it put it together. So it came
out in February, okay this year.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
And worth noting for those of you who are interested
in this, especially because you have children who are in
high school and you're trying to consider what to do
for your c student who's not really interested in school
per se, but you want a good future for them.
The website is who Needs College Anymore? Dot org rg
(20:39):
who Needs College Anymore? Dot org And with that we
will continue our conversation with Kathleen Dulaski. The website is
who Needs College Anymore? Dot org. And I encourage every
family to have this conversation as your kids are growing up.
Don't just go to college because you don't know what
else to do. That's no reason to do in the military,
(21:00):
there's no reason to go to college. That's no reason
to do anything else. Give thought to this, what do
I want to be when I grow up? Who do
I want to be when I grow up? And not
just what job or how much money I want to make,
but what field of study? What passion do you have?
Anyway more? Coming up here? Get people to understand giving
information is not Nick Kat's land Delasteth as our guest.
(21:23):
She's the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a
future where degrees won't matter. Imagine a society giving the
power to confer upon an individual the ticket to punch
to riches. You would be giving all the power to
(21:43):
this unique institution, And a lot of people think that's
what's happening, and it's not. I've known two billionaires very
closely in my life, neither of whom went to college.
I've known other billionaires who didn't graduate from college. So
if riches are your goal, getting a job and working
within a corporate entity is not always the best way
(22:04):
to go about that. But there's so much more in
life than how much you make. It's what you do
and finding a passion for that. Kathleen, how has your
work been received because everybody with a college degree thinks
you're devaluing their college degree.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Well, I don't know. I think at the time that
I chose to raya, which is pretty much now. It
is a kind of wake up call moment. I feel
like ever since the recession from twenty ten college attendance,
college enrollment has been dropping. So community college has lost
a third of their enrollment in the last decade, and
(22:45):
this was even happening well before COVID and then degrees.
I mean, people are not The number of people signing
up for degrees is dropping, and the number of people
signing up to do like certificates and other form short
forms of training is going up. And so you know,
I don't. I don't. Colleges are receiving my message pretty
(23:07):
well because they know they have to change, and they're
like going right to the chapter that's like how can
colleges adapt? And they're looking at you know, the models
that I show there are really around. Okay, if you
if you want to show that you still have an
ROI or a return on investment for your students, you
really need to focus more on helping them, you know,
(23:28):
land them at the front door of their first job,
because as you just said a few minutes ago, that's
exactly what you know, That's what families are expecting to
happen when their kid graduates, is is they you know,
they're going to get a job. And so you know,
how can we connect those dots better? And so I think,
you know, you see a lot of colleges really trying
to start to work on that, and Texas in particular,
(23:51):
you know, I was just at the association with all
the community colleges the annual meeting in Nashville, and some
Texas colleges were presenting and they're explaining that you know,
you've got you've got a new law in Texas called
HB eight, which which is now uh, colleges are being
judged and they're getting funding based upon the outcomes that
(24:12):
they deliver. And by that they mean what kind of
income are students making after they graduate. That's actually being
tracked and Texas is the first state to do this,
and everybody else is watching this. I mean, the other
states are kind of doing versions of them, but they're
doing the most intense version and it's been really interesting
to watch.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
That is uh wow. You know, these are things that
I don't I don't think are talked about widely. There
is so much. I have a son who's a junior,
so he will begin the college application process in the fall,
and I've told both of my sons in the zone.
I'm in the zone. I have a son who's the
freshman's University of Texas, and I've told them, you can
(24:53):
do the military, you can do vocational school, you can
go to college, you can take a gap year and
travel and work around the world as you do it.
It's totally up to you. And both have thus far
chosen college as their route, and I think part of
that is, yeah, that's what their friends are doing. Is
a comfort to that and all that. Just like with
careers and your life partner choice, I think it's important
(25:14):
that you keep an open mind and you look at
you know, you don't just marry the girl who lives
next door or was your high school sweetheart. That may work.
You don't just do the job that your dad did.
That may work, but you know these are going to
have a big impact on your life and your happiness.
So be willing to look at at least know what
all is out there, right, and don't be limited to
(25:38):
the kids who did bring your dad to work day,
because there's a lot there're a lot more careers out there. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, I just wanted to mention I want to with
your son being a University of Texas. So another really
interesting pilot that I feature in the book is the
University of Texas. The whole system is starting to incorporate
the like industry certifications into the degrees, and they're again
they're doing that. You're doing the largest pilot in the
country right now and everybody's watching it, and so you're
(26:08):
you know, they're getting like a Google It certificate or
a cybersecurity certificate. You can get those without going to college.
But at least the college are just saying, wow, we
need to add this value. Yes, where you know, learners
can see the connection between you know, what Google is
going to be asking for in the job interview and
what we we're delivering in the classroom. So they're actually
baking in the certificates that have been created by by companies,
(26:32):
which I think is a great.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Step in the right And let's talk about why they
didn't do it. It wasn't that they lacked the expertise
or the space, or are the students with the interest
in it. It was beneath the university. We are the academy,
we are the Ivory Tower. We don't get down into certificates.
And I think there is now a sort of hey, guys,
(26:54):
there's got to be some value to this. I'm spending
all this money and I need to be able to
have certificates when we get out of this to do
to perform tasks. Especially because you mentioned Google. Google goes
out of their way to hire young people who did
not go to college, and I think that's a wake
up call to the universities.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yes, yes, they have been good about them.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
What is what is the takeaway that people have the
website is who needs college anymore? Dot org to your
theories and ideas that you get the most. What is
the thing that someone says, I hadn't thought about that?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Well, I think, you know, everybody's heard about apprenticeships and
boot camps, but I don't think people realize that we
are suppressing those models by the way that we put
all of our all of our funding eggs in the
in the in the you know sort of college and
college tuition basket, you know, through federal financial aid. You know,
(27:55):
there's like fifty to one is the expenditures on college,
you know, nationally versus supporting college versus apprenticeships. So, you know,
I don't want to suggest to your listeners that they
could just walk out, their kid could walk out and
get a cool apprenticeship, because apprenticeships are are you know,
have long been available in areas light construction, electrician, HVAC,
(28:18):
but they're now becoming available in what you might call
the white collar jobs, but not at scale yet. And
so I don't want to suggest that these are like
ready to go models. We need to push for them,
and states are actually taking the lead right now on that.
And so you can your listeners could go to apprenticeship
dot gov and see, you know, where what apprenticeships are available,
(28:40):
because I mean, that's a great model, and colleges are
now even trying to to bring them in, you know,
to kind of become the the you know, the facilitators
for apprenticeships. And that's cool, you'll see more of that,
but you know, probably not what your kids are in school.
So I don't want to suggest that like these other
models are like easily available to kids right now. They're not,
(29:04):
but we need to make them.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So I have I'm fortunate to have contacts and people
that I could reach out to, but I have had
my kids doing what I would consider apprenticeships, internships, whatever
you want to call it, and I break down the
formal barriers and I say, I just want them to
hang out with you for some period of time a week,
a month, and literally watch you take phone calls, watch
(29:26):
how you spend your day, watch how you spend your hours,
once whore you go to lunch with, and you learn
so much. I learned at the foot of mentors that
I had who were much older than me, who were
willing to invest in me. And I'm a big believer
in that model. I want to say, because I'm up
against the clock. You also mentioned self instruction using YouTube.
(29:47):
I think of how many kids are doing homeschooling now,
and they're doing it all online. And you know, you're
always told you have to go to school to be socialized.
These kids are smart, they're well rounded. I'm thoroughly impressed
by him. I love what you're doing. Kathleen Dlaski. Let's
have you on again. The author of Who Needs College Anymore?
The website is who Needs College Anymore dot org. Thank
(30:09):
you for your time.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Thank you, Michael
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.