January 2, 2026 • 34 mins
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's that time, time, time, time, Luck and Load. Michael
Verie Show is on the air, even some of these
our guests.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
As a former Capital City Police chief, position he held
on January sixth, twenty twenty one, I wanted to make
the point with his background.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This guy's not a lightweight.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
He's got a BS, a MS from Johns Hopkins University,
a pretty high brow, rigorous academic background. He has an
MA and homeland security from the Naval Postgraduate School. This
guy is thoughtful about strategy and operations and logistics in
law enforcement. It's what he's devoted his life to. This
(00:48):
isn't somebody who rows through the ranks because they checked
the right box that they weren't a white male. He is,
in fact a white male. This is a guy who,
by all accounts, and I think he has demonstrated, cares
deeply about law and order and security and preserving the peace,
and that's to be respected. So now we get to
January sixth. I know you've told this story because I've
(01:10):
seen you tell this story. I wish i'd let you
tell your story in public, but let's walk through.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I won't interrupt you.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Why don't you tell the story as you know it
of January sixth.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I will I think your listeners will definitely be surprised
about what they're about to hear because a lot of
people will hear about, you know, Trump offering National Guard
and what happened to the Nationalard and stuff like this.
You're going to hear the truth. This truth has been
upheld by congressional hearings. I come with the facts. I'm
thirty years law enforcement. I'm not going to say something
that I can't back up. So let's take you back
to the Sunday before January sixth, January third, it was
(01:43):
the first day of the one hundred and seventeenth Congress,
regardless if it falls on a weekend, and January third
is always going to be the first day of a
new Congress. When it comes in a session, we do
all the swearing ends of the members of Congress. So
it's a big dam up on Capitol Hill. I had
been kind of watching the crowds size that were coming in.
In mind you the intelligence I was getting in the
intelligence and a whole other issue of what the intelligence
(02:05):
I was getting didn't say anything about any type of
coordinated attack of the capital, any threat to the federal
billings or to the Capitol, or to members of Congress,
nothing like that. I was just concerned about the size
of the crowd and the number of officers I had
to put on my perimeter. I had a four foot
high bike rack that was going to surround the Capitol,
which is a sizable area. I only had two hundred
(02:27):
and seventy three officers to put on that perimeter, and
that included response officers for civil disobedience. So it wasn't
a whole lot of officers. Because we had a joint
cessant of excuse me, a joint session of Congress. It
took a lot of my personnel inside of the building.
So i'd gone over to the Senate, the House Sergeant Arms.
I'm acquired by my federal law. This is another interesting thing.
If I want to bring in any assistance for my officers,
(02:49):
any federal assistance, whether it's being National Guard, any federal assistance,
I have to buy law. Its to us nineteen seventy
get permission from the Capitol Police Board. So Sunday morning,
at nine thirty five, I went over to see the
House Sergeant Arms. Guy by the name of Paul Irving,
who I knew he carried most of the weight. He was
the big heavy hitter. Everyone kind of listened to him
(03:09):
on the Capitol police board. I think this would be
a sensitive topic for him, But I went over and
ask for national Guard support specifically, just for the premier
unarmed national Guard support. I wasn't asking for Farm Nash
Guard support at that time. He didn't approve it. He
didn't approve it specifically because he said he didn't like
the optics of the National Guards standing a line with
the Capitol in the background. And I think that was
(03:30):
because he felt is his boss, his main boss, Speaker
Pelosi would have gotten upset about it. And he also
said the intelligence didn't support it. Well, yeah, I understand
the intelligence didn't support it, but I still worried about
the size of the crowds. And I told him, you
know that I'm worried about the size of the crowds
and I'd like to have some resources on the preiter
with my officers.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Again, he at that point, can you give us a
time from again? When was this conversation?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Roughly, the conversation was on Monday, January third, three days
before January sixth.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Okay, plenty of time to muster troops if you need them.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Plenty of times, the mustard mustard troops we've we've used,
you know, in my in my history with d C
Police and even with with Capitol Police, who even national Guard,
And there's plenty of time. But it gets it gets
even better because I'm going to tell you how we
knew the National Guard was prepared. So he refers me
over to Mike Stinger, who's now the chairman of the
Capitol Police Board and he became the chairman on that day.
(04:24):
I went over to his office, Mike Sneer was and
and I came back later on, right a little bit
after eleven. He's in the office and I can tell
he's already been given heads up. I'm coming over to
ask for National Guard. When I asked for National Board support,
he won't approve it. Again, he's concerned. Later on he
in April that after January sixth, I finally asked me
and said he do you know I was coming over,
said Irvi and told him, but anyway, he wouldn't He
(04:45):
wouldn't approve it. He said, you know, once you call,
do you know anybody at the DC National Guard if
we need their assistants? How quickly could they get here?
And I know the committitian General of the DC National Guard,
William Walker, General Walker. I don't MI can call General Walker,
but that's still not going to help us grab you know,
issues on the perimeter. But he said, I got to
run out. He's going to the swearing in of members
of Congress, and he said that's that's the best we're
(05:07):
going to do. We wouldn't approve it, so he leaves out.
I go back to my office later on that day.
Just a short time later, I get back. One of
my deputy chief's approaches me and says, we received a
call from Carol Corbyan. She's the program manager for the
Defense Support for Civil Authorities, which is the National Guard,
and coming to support you know, civil authorities law enforcement
it's needed. She was calling to ask if we were
(05:28):
going to be requesting the National Guard for January six
Now I had just been denied twice my request for
the use of the National Guard on January sixth, and
by the law, I had to tell him to tell
her no, we aren't. I've dealt with her before because
I'd been denied, So coming into January sixth, I don't
have that Pentagon had offered National Guard. I had to
(05:49):
turn it down. I've been denied twice by the House
and Senate Sargeant Arms. So coming into January sixth, twelve
fifty eight, in the command center, we're working with the
pipe bomb that we started dealing with at the Republican
National Committee, which is just a couple of blocks south
of the US Capitol. We had been alerted of a
pipe bomb. I want to say, right around twelve forty
one pm, we're dealing with that. I mean, my watchmana
(06:12):
are showing me some pictures of the pipe bomb. When
somebody says we have a large crowd approaching our west front.
I look up, but we have cameras. There's two roadways
coming up towards the west front, right next to the
reflecting Pool, Pennsylvania Avenue, Maryland Avenue, coming up to two circles.
I see a couple hundred people at each of the
circles approaching our fence line, and some of the people
(06:32):
in the group got very confrontational and physical with the
officers very quickly. I've handled lots of protests. I've seen
lots of you know, where the marchers come up to
the line, and the gate, and we'll usually have ten
fifteen minutes of back and forth where they're yelling. And
so I got before he gets to this point. This
was a matter of a matter of minutes before they
started pulling out the gate and swinging at my officers.
And again this was a core group of people that
(06:54):
were in the in the crowd. So I look down.
That's twelve fifty three. I see what's going on. I
you know, having come from DC Police, I reach over
dcent Police and say, hey, if you guys get some resources,
send them our way. And then at twelve fifty eight,
I called the Senate sor of the I'm sorry the
house star's arms, Paul Irving, to request permission. I'm still
required by law to request permission even in an emergency.
(07:16):
Now Congress has since changed that law December of twenty
twenty one, they changed it and allows the chiefs calling
resources that I having to go to this but anyway,
they say admitted the failure. So twelve fifty eight, I
call Paul Irving. It took eleven calls. Let me back up.
I start following myself. My adrenaline start pumping when I'm
talking about this. So when I first called him. I said,
(07:37):
it's bad on the West Front. My officers are getting overrun.
I need federal resources, and now I need permission to
call in the National art. He says to me, quote,
let me run this up to chain and I'll be
right back to you. So he and he has a
liaison officer seing right behind me watching the same thing
I'm seeing on my screens. I get off the phone.
I'm dumbfounded. I'm seeing again my officer are now backing
(07:58):
up as the crowd's getting starting to move on the
on the Capitol. So I called Mike Stinger, the Senate
Surgeon Arms call him immediately and say, hey, you know
we're getting over run again. He has the theas I'm
sitting right behind me. I need immedia permission to bring
in the National Guard. He said, what did Paul Irving
tell you that he's going to run it up the chain.
He's going to run up to speak a Pelosi and
can get right back to me. He said, let's wait
(08:18):
to hear from Paul Irving. I made eleven more phone
calls to the two of them, seventy one minutes before
I finally got approval at two nine pm. For Michael
Barry James is.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
The goodchief of the Capitol Police on January sixth, twenty
twenty one, with Stephen Son. He's our guest telling his story.
And we were now in the middle of the afternoon.
You've waited over an hour, You've made a number of calls.
(08:51):
The situation is turning in your estimation. Are the people
who are beginning to approach the Capitol do you suspect
that any of those individuals are federal plans? Do you
suspect that they're paid activists? Do you think they're just
people who showed up or frustrated? Do you have a
sense of that?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So are you asking like at the time were you asking?
Now that I reflect back on it, I'm glad you asked.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I guess both would be important to know.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah. So at the time, all I was thinking about
had how we get my officer some some assistants. Uh.
They were they were getting the rear ends handed to them. Uh,
And I need to get them some assistants real quick.
And I was just dumbfounded as repeatedly denials and delays
I was getting. You know, looking back on it, you know,
I keep hearing I try and you know, really stick
to it. Be a person of the facts. If I
(09:43):
know facts, I'm going to pass them on. You know,
I hear a lot about you know, there could have
been tief in the in the crowd. There could have
been you know, different people in the crowd very well
could be if I if I had facts that I'd
absolutely pass that, pass that on to you. Looking at
some of the videos, you see a lot of people
all wearing you know, looks like a brand new quit in,
brand new hats, flags, stuff like that. Who knows, who
(10:04):
knows what that that could tell you, But I will
tell you. You know, I've suspected you know, all along. It
wouldn't be unusual front event in Washington. See when you
talk about federal agents, whether it's a Fourth of July celebration,
a state funeral, a h Terry Boston parade, even something
like that. We we still have, you know, put together
some of these plain closed teams that oftentimes are made
(10:27):
up of you know, people from the Washington Field Office
for the FBI, Secret Service, some of the Joint Terrorist
Task Force members just to go out there and keep
an eye look for any issues or if we get
a suspicious package, you can you know, respond to the
suspecial package quickly to start making assessments. So it wouldn't
I wouldn't have been surprised to think, okay, we did
some some plain closed assets in the in the crowd.
(10:48):
But you know, as I began to do my research,
and you know, I got I literally got stripped out
of my office the very next day and I hopefully
we have time to get to that. And I literally
sat at home and I had people come out of
the wood work, whistle wor wers come out and start
pushing information to me. And found out that the FBI
had been receiving information just prior to January sixth that
(11:09):
indicated there's several what they considered domestic terrorists that were
most likely planning to come to Washingt d C. For
the event. Then as we got closer, the numbers seem
to seem to get higher, so you know, and I
found this in the aftermat that at one point they're
tracking nineteen people that were on their domestic terrorists list
as coming to planning on coming to Washington, d C. Now,
(11:30):
I can tell you this, they're not tracking them with
just nobody. They're going to be tracking them with agents
if they think somebody comes in, they know they have
a flight coming in or something like that, they're going
to be putting eyes on these people. So it wouldn't
you know, if we're we have that many people that
they suspect our domestic terrorists, I suspect you're going to
have significant resource in the crowd watching them. So that's
(11:52):
where I based my opinion on. Now, Christopher Ray has
come out and said that there was a number of
what they call confidential human sources chs is in the crowd.
Some people have said the chs is were the ones
watching the uh uh their domestic terrorist targets. I don't
buy that. That's not what I considered the police work,
because you can only trust a CHS so much. But
(12:12):
that's where I always base my opinion on that. You
know what, I would have been surprised there's playing closed
ass in the ground. But when you start hearing about
you know, there's some of these people that are out
there that are pushing them to get into the capital
and move on the capital. I find that very very
concerning and if and if proven be true, that's you know,
that's definitely not what they're supposed to be doing. And
that is, you know, contrary to the oath of oath
(12:33):
they take.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I know, you choose your words carefully, not out of cowardice,
but out of caution. Is it outside the realm that
that could be the case, outside the realm that.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Some people could be pushing pushing the group. Well, when
you act and you think about why why am I
denying repeatedly in advance? Why am I denying while you know,
just the blatant that while my officers are under attack,
and then I run into problems with the with the Pentagon. Finally,
once I do get approval approving my request, and now
(13:11):
we find out that there's probably some influence coming from
General Millie on on that the influence on from General
Milly onto Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller that caused
him to place additional restrictions on the National Bar that
no one knew about. When you start looking at that,
you're like, yeah, this really, you know, it could make
a really interesting conspiracy theory novel when you look at
what was going on in that aspect, and you know, really,
(13:33):
who who is you? You know, getting the most traction
out of the whole January sixth initiative? You know, we
haven't been able to identify the pipe bomber yet, which
is I find that very interesting, But I mean, you know,
your listeners probably would be surprised. And when I activated
mutual aid, the New Jersey State Police made it before
(13:54):
the DC National Guard coming down to the DC. Nash
Guard had one hundred and fifty five troops within eye
side of capital and they didn't get the until five
forty pm at night, well on once all the fighting
was over. And remember I told you well when I
called when I finally got in touch with the Pentagon,
the Pentagon wanted me on a conference call. This was
brought on two thirty four pm. They wanted me on
(14:16):
a conference call to then find out why I'm requesting
National Guard. I think that would have been fairly self
evident with anybody watching this on TV. But I'm on
the phone with the guy mat by the name of
Lieutenant General Walter Pyat, also on the phone with me
as mayor bounser, chief of Police for the DC, Plice
Forrobert Conti, the Director of Emergency Mangineer for DC, A
(14:36):
number of other people, including a guy that at one
point was the Army's acting General Council Colonel Earl Matthews.
He has since come out as a whistle boar on
my behalf. And I told him, I said, I need
a National Guard support immediately. This is life and death situation.
They've now gotten into the Capitol. We're battling to keep
Hi out of the capital. And he tells me the
(14:56):
exact same thing. Paul Irving told me I don't like
the op of the National Guard standing a line with
capital in the background. I was dumb found I'm hearing
the exact same thing. So you know, I'm wondering, is
there some talking points behind this? I repeatedly, I'm bagging.
I'm almost at tears, and the marriage Fountain said this.
I was almost at tears begging him to send me resources,
(15:17):
and kept tearing this over and over, and he said
his recommendations to that that I my request. That was
his first response. Uh, And then I kept pleading with him.
He said, well, I'm gonna run this up to chain
and that's when we had the shooting of action. Babbitt
and I had to get on the phone.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It's uh, it's so frustrating, man. I think in many ways,
I look at what's happened in your career. I think
of how many officers that day never recovered, and we
know that some took their own lives.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I think how many.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
People who went to the Capitol, in my suspicion, who
did little or nothing and relatively speaking, and ended up
in prison. I just think of this as horrible, as
as Richard Nixon or as Gerald Ford referred to the
next administration. It feels like a long national nightmare, and
it's it's extremely, extremely disturbing. And I believe you don't
(16:11):
have to and I'm not saying you do or don't.
I believe that the various forces were at work here
and a lot of good people doing their jobs, and
a lot of people, patriots got caught up in it
and were terribly terribly affected by you mentioned earlier you
made reference to, and I hope we'll have time.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
To get to that.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Who will make time in the next second Stephen Sunday's
our guess. He was a Capital City police chief on
January the Capitol police chief on January sixth, twenty twenty one,
Jackie you here?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Where's Jackie?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
A crash that killed Congresswoman Jackie or.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Here?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Stephen Sundays I guess he was the police chief of
the Capitol Police on January sixth of twenty twenty one,
that fateful day, and you made reference chief to getting
pulled into an office. I wasn't sure exactly, but you said,
I hope we'll have time to talk about that. And
I made a little scribble note to go back to
that so that I do make time for you. So
go ahead to the floor.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Is yours? I appreciate it. So you know, here we
are January January sixth. We get everybody back back in
the session. The National Guard finally shows up at five
forty pm. We have to swear them in a special
police officers. They once they get off their bus, the
fighting is over. You know, We've got everything done. Everything
(17:32):
is secured. I brought in seventeen law enforcement agencies, seventeen
hundred police officers. That's all taken care of. What do
they do. They line up with all their riote gear,
take a picture with the Capitol in the background and
put it on Military Time magazine. I thought you'd just
get a kick out of that. When the Pentagon had
said they were so concerned about the optics and to
have that bed the optics that they took away from it.
That was interesting. So the next day we're briefing January seventh.
(17:55):
In the morning of January seventh, we're briefing members of Congress.
Now now mind you, that evening I talked to Speaker
Pelosi three times. First time brought around five thirty five.
I'd gone over to brief Vice President Pence. We had
him at a secure location on Capitol Hill. He had
been calling me a couple of times asking me to
come over and brief him. I couldn't lead, because you know,
(18:15):
I had to be up in the pan Center getting
things under control. But once we could, I went over
to brief him. When I briefed him of when we
can get them back into session, he got Speaker Pelosi
on a call. We breef sure. And this has now
all come out. You see the film footge that comes
out from her daughter that was with her Speaker Pelosi,
which he's saying, I take responsibility, and you'll see some
of this that I talked about. And there's a video
(18:36):
of me with Pence and her getting a call from Pence,
and that's one of the calls. So I talked to him.
I talked her three times, So the next day, we're
briefing my oversight. We're briefing members of Congress about, you know,
what the plan is, moving forward with the plans with
national Board support. When I get a call that Speaker
Pelosi is right around one o'clock in the afternoon, is
getting ready to go on national TV and call from
(18:58):
my resignation. I said, okay, my general counsel and my
chief administrative officers, you know, said hey, let's go in
your office. We'll watch it there. Gave my wife a
little heads up, went in, watched it and knows about
a twenty minute press conference and it's on YouTube. You
can watch. It's the very end of the press conference.
It's a planning question. Somebody asked, you know, what are
you gonna do about the security figures up on Capitol Hill.
(19:21):
She says, that's a great question. We're going to do
an after action study, which would have been smarter if
she just stopped there. But then she calls me out
by name and says, I'm calling for the resignation of
Chief's son. There was a failure of leadership at the top,
and you know he has to go. He failed. I'm
trying to think exactly what she said, but you could
(19:41):
tell she studies over her voice for a little bit. Now,
mind you, I had caught tried to get National Guard
in advance on January third and repeatedly on January sixth,
have been denied by her sergeant at arms specifically. And
then she goes on national TV says there's a failure
of leadership at the top of the Capitol police calls
me out by name, then tells the American public I
haven't even called her since this curve, which is a lie. Uh,
(20:03):
and then calls from my resignation. You know, I sat
and talked to my wife. I was having slept for
thirty six hours. I was shell shocked. I said, you
know fine, I submitted my my letter of resignation with
a three week transition period in the very that The
very next morning, I got a call saying you're immediately.
I was cut off from all my computer access uh
(20:25):
and was to move out of my office immediately. So
over that weekend I actually was moving everything at my
office and has never stepped back and foot in that
office again. Nobody has talked to me. Uh, well, very little.
I had to go down for a couple of conferences
but yeah, there wasn't get didn't get access to the investigation,
nothing like that. So so I agree there was there
(20:46):
was a number of key people in that crowd that
I think were problematic, But I think a lot of
those people in that crowd were what I call strap hangers,
people that just kind of followed along, looked at the crowd,
went in, didn't do anything, didn't assault the officers at all.
You know that, I think, you know, it's a shame
how some of these people got treated. I've been in
policing for a long time. I've never seen that type
(21:09):
of levels of sentencing handed down, even for APO assaultan
police officer. So I was kind of surprised by that.
But you know, to be to be stripp away from
an agency, I loved when I tried to prevent that.
Now Congress has come out if you look at some
of the recent hearings and reports, Congress has said if
the Sergeant at Arms had approved Sun's request for dashboard
(21:30):
support on January third, chances are the capital have never
been breached. And then in December seventeenth, twenty twenty four,
under Chairman Very Louder Route their last report that they
did now that I think the committee's coming back again.
Their last report exonerates me by name. But I'm still
fighting to get the retirement. My retirement was stripped all
(21:52):
you know, all benefits, everything like that. It was immediately stripped. Yeah,
oh yeah, yep, yeah I was. I was only a
few months away from me totally totally vested. And I
do believe if the facts have been known, I may
even still be there today. Who knows, but yeah, they
so they exonerated me December seventeenth, twenty twenty four. I'm
(22:13):
one of maybe a handful of people in history that
Congress has exonerated by name, which is which is interesting.
But I'm still working with the committee, still working with
Chairman Laudermilk, you know, working to get some executive branch
support to have them look at my case. Didn't see
about you know, returning whatever benefits may be stript from me.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
How many years in law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I did, total of thirty years in law enforcement. I
did retire from DC Police. I did get my retirement
from DC Police. But for me, it's it's now just
a it's not the federal retirement's not anything big. But
for me, it's the principle. It is the fact that
you know, I tried to stop this. I tried to
stop it repeatedly. It was repeatedly denied. And this all
you know I've got. I've turned over all my phone records,
(22:59):
my transcripts, my email that they have everything. And I
just find that that interesting that you know I'm the
one targeted. But you know, well we'll fight. I know.
The truth is, the truth is coming out. And as
more the truth comes out, and the better it looks
for me.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Lives are destroyed in this manner. You're not going to
allow your life to be destroyed because you are a
survivor and a prevailer, but lesser men would be. And
I think it's very important to see, you know, Chief Son,
I always counsel doing what I do. I am approached
with a lot of what will be called conspiracy theories,
(23:36):
and that is, you know, sometimes slapping a pejorative tag
on a on a theory that might very well have
otherwise been legitimate. So I have come to learn and
I counsel this often. You have to be careful that
you don't believe every conspiracy theory that is offered, just
(23:57):
because you're prone to believing and in lined and biased
and prejudice toward conspiracy theories. However, the parallel to that
is you have to be careful if you refuse to
believe anything called a conspiracy theory, or you'll end up
eighteen shots into Joe Biden's protocol and Fauci's laughing at
your funeral. So I think there is somewhere in between
(24:19):
where you have a more temperate, measured approach to news
of the day. But several of the things that you
describe strike me as so outside the chain of command,
so outside traditional policing principles, particularly as it relates to
a highly political environment. And I realize that you know
(24:42):
much more and could say much more damning things, and
I respect the fact that you're holding that tight that
would be in your defense. But these are things that
I think every American needs to know, and that the
Liz Cheney Show trial and all of that which they
didn't allow you to speak to you know, I consider
this to be a major calamity, a major disaster in
(25:07):
American life that needs to be explored to extremely great extent. Chief,
if you can hold with me for one more segment,
having they remain scared the death of you, and they
remain scared.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
To death of Trump. Michael Barry shows You're not going
anywhere even if Trump does. You're not.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Even sunned. Is our guest s u ind If you'd
like to look him up. He's he's written a book
about all this. We'll talk about that in just a moment.
He has giving an interview now. He's the former police
chief of the Capitol Police. On January sixth, twenty twenty one,
Nancy Pelosi went after him and basically destroyed his career.
As it were, Chief, sound you you had a lot
(25:52):
of guys. How big is the Capitol Police Force?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Capitol Police Force? When I was there, a lot of
people are kind of surprised by it. It's nine hundred
and sixty three officers with a budget of about four
hundred and sixty three million dollars. It comes out to
me about the twenty fifth department in the country.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
My sons both I have a son who's a senior
in high school and a son who's now a sophomore
in college, and they interned for Congressman this summer. And
I had worked for law firm in d C thirty
years ago, so it was fun for me and my
wife to get to go back and spend some time
there and meet them for lunch and walk around the
capitol and do the tours and all that. We hadn't
done that in a long time. And I mean it's significant.
(26:34):
People don't realize it is. As you said, it would
be about the twenty fifth largest police force in the country,
and there are real security concerns, and you know, somebody
could argue that's too many or whatever else there are.
It's a spread out area. You have kind of the boulevards,
the way that the boulevards, the esplanade style, big grand
(26:54):
European boulevard that's hard to police. There's a lot that
goes into this. But I want to go back to
January sixth and the officers there. There were officers who died,
and one the claim was he was hit by blunt
force object. And my understanding is whether he was or
he wasn't. His family said he did not die from
(27:15):
blunt force trauma. But that you had a number of
officers who committed suicide. They took their own life. Their
lives were not taken by the protesters. Can you speak
to that.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Absolutely. You've got again, a lot of different questions there,
So technically there was one officer whose death was a
they went back and said, it's what they call immediately
a line of duty death. That was officer Brian sick Nick.
He was one of the officers that was in Waltston
of the fighting on the West Front. He had been
sprayed with turper spray. At one point, the media had
(27:48):
said he had been hit with the fire extinguisher, which
didn't turn out to be true. I actually know the
DC Police office that they got hit by that but
ended up later on that night at about probably close
to ten o'clock, maybe between nine and ten, was walking
with a group of officers. We now have the capital
under control. We've got a bunch officers on the perimeter,
(28:08):
insides under control. He's now walking with a couple of
Capitol Police officers and a Virginia State trooper who happens
to be a medic to go get a bike t
He's walking along and he just drops and the medic
immediately went to work on him, and I had a
chance stark from the medic. He said, you know, as
soon as he hit the ground, you there's like, you know,
he was completely unconscious. He went over to a gw
(28:30):
Hospital where they identified that he had what appeared to
be some type of a neurological issue at the base
of his brain stem with no brain activity and then
ultimately passed away the very next day. That's the case
I think you're talking about. The autopsy by the DC
medical examiner was concluded, and they concluded in the autopsy
(28:51):
that he passed away with what they said were natural
causes and he had a double stroke at the base
of his brain stem. Later on the same medical examiner
in a press conference had stated that the actually the
activities of the day contributed to his medical condition. So
it wasn't in the in the writing, but you know
(29:12):
that that was enough if you have somebody that's on
duty and then I'm just saying this from a law
enforcement management or leadership point of view. If you have
somebody that's on duty uh in conducting their their line
of duty and dies, that's going to be a line
of duty death. And this was a line of duty death.
So that was a situation with Brian sick Nick. Then
what you had is on that Saturday, which would have
(29:35):
been the ninth, January ninth, you had the first of
a series of suicides first by the name of Howard
Leaving Goood. He was a US Capitol police officer, lived
out in Paterfac County. Committed suicide. I was in moving
all the stuff out of my office when my watchmanager
came in and passed on that that news to me. Uh,
(29:56):
the person who was acting you they made acting chief.
And that's the whole story in itself. I was at
home and I had to call her and tell her,
you know, the the news and tell her to come
on in because, uh, you know, we got a lot
to do. But yeah, So so his suicide ultimately, after
a lot of back and forth, was made a line
of duty death. My my, my thought is, you know,
(30:18):
with with many lines different lines of work, especially law enforcement,
you're exposed to a lot of different trauma you go through,
you know, a lot of different issues. There's a lot
of PTSD uh in law enforcement. But we've really fought hard,
uh to make sure that officers know that there's there's options.
You know, these officers walk around, they've got a gun
on their hip, uh, you know, whenever they're on duty
(30:39):
to carry it home with them. Uh. They have other
options than to than to turn and consider suicide. Now,
you know, it's it's okay to get counseling, and you
know a lot of agencies white counseling available to the officers.
I get concerned that, you know, it's it's always it's
rare that they'll ever make a suicide line of duty death.
(31:00):
And I just hate to think that, you know, there's
other people that thinking, Okay, now we've had his suicide
declared line of duty. Jeff Smith, who is with DC Police,
committed suicide. I want to say, apprised me ten days
later on like January nineteenth. If I have my dates right,
I think I'm pretty close. But it's been a couple
of years committed suicide. His was also determined to be
a line of duty depth. I get concerned that, you know,
(31:22):
when when you do that, I don't want to give
officers the impression that, you know, hey, if I've had
really a couple of traumatic experiences and you know, things
aren't going well for me, this is an option for
my family get you know, full full benefits in a
lot of duty death funeral. It just raised for me.
It raises concerns when they go through that that you know,
(31:43):
this may be an option for him, So you know,
I want any any officers listening that you know, this
isn't isn't a course of action that you really want
to take. You know, consider the counseling, consider what other
options are to you, and you know, don't don't turn
toward your service weapon or anything like that to solve problems.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
It's unfortunate that an individual is in a position where
that does make sense to them, and it's a good
reminder of how difficult this job is and why it
is deserving of respect. Steven Son, is there anything we
did not get to? I got about a minute that
you wanted to offer up before we close.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning the book. My intention was
to never write a book. Ye always hear about these
people writing books. I'm sitting at the desk where when
I was forced to leave. I sat down and I
started just writing every note I've done after action reports,
over and over and over again, and started putting this together.
And at first of my wife was like, be sure
this is what you want to do, because I was
relating this for fourteen hours a day every day, and
(32:42):
then when it all started coming together, you wouldn't believe
what was going on with the intelligence, with the with
the FBI, with you know, I was putting together a
briefing beforehand, and what was being told me that it's
just when you look at it, it just got so
chaotic and it didn't have to be like that. I
still believe January sixth could have been prevented if they
wanted they had listened to me. But if so many
(33:04):
people had just done their job the way they're supposed to,
we wouldn't be here talking right now. So I ended
up putting it together. It's now been referred to on
Capitol Hill as the tentative after Action of January sixth.
If your readers are interested, it's on Amazon. Get the paperback.
The paperback has the most up to date information, but
I think they'll find it shocking. It's the exoneration I got.
(33:25):
Some Congress isn't even in there because it happens since
the last edition. So I'm sure that'll be updated. But
you know, January sixth committee under very louder Muck's coming back.
You know, they may invite me down to testify. I'm
more than happy to testify. That'll be probably the third
time I've been down to testify. One time the Sele
Comitte wouldn't let me testify in public. But you're gonna
hear a little ye know. You'll read a little bit
(33:46):
about the Slight Committee and some of the issues they had.
But no, I appreciate you mentioned it, and I appreciate
your interest in the In the story, there's there's still
a lot more there.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Good surface.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Steven Son, Capitol Police Chief in Juniors.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Ex Alas has left for dull In. Thank you, and goodnight.
It's that time, time, time, time, Luck and Load. Michael
Verie Show is on the air, even some of these
our guests.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
As a former Capital City Police chief, position he held
on January sixth, twenty twenty one, I wanted to make
the point with his background.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This guy's not a lightweight.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
He's got a BS, a MS from Johns Hopkins University,
a pretty high brow, rigorous academic background. He has an
MA and homeland security from the Naval Postgraduate School. This
guy is thoughtful about strategy and operations and logistics in
law enforcement. It's what he's devoted his life to. This
(00:48):
isn't somebody who rows through the ranks because they checked
the right box that they weren't a white male. He is,
in fact a white male. This is a guy who,
by all accounts, and I think he has demonstrated, cares
deeply about law and order and security and preserving the peace,
and that's to be respected. So now we get to
January sixth. I know you've told this story because I've
(01:10):
seen you tell this story. I wish i'd let you
tell your story in public, but let's walk through.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I won't interrupt you.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Why don't you tell the story as you know it
of January sixth.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I will I think your listeners will definitely be surprised
about what they're about to hear because a lot of
people will hear about, you know, Trump offering National Guard
and what happened to the Nationalard and stuff like this.
You're going to hear the truth. This truth has been
upheld by congressional hearings. I come with the facts. I'm
thirty years law enforcement. I'm not going to say something
that I can't back up. So let's take you back
to the Sunday before January sixth, January third, it was
(01:43):
the first day of the one hundred and seventeenth Congress,
regardless if it falls on a weekend, and January third
is always going to be the first day of a
new Congress. When it comes in a session, we do
all the swearing ends of the members of Congress. So
it's a big dam up on Capitol Hill. I had
been kind of watching the crowds size that were coming in.
In mind you the intelligence I was getting in the
intelligence and a whole other issue of what the intelligence
(02:05):
I was getting didn't say anything about any type of
coordinated attack of the capital, any threat to the federal
billings or to the Capitol, or to members of Congress,
nothing like that. I was just concerned about the size
of the crowd and the number of officers I had
to put on my perimeter. I had a four foot
high bike rack that was going to surround the Capitol,
which is a sizable area. I only had two hundred
(02:27):
and seventy three officers to put on that perimeter, and
that included response officers for civil disobedience. So it wasn't
a whole lot of officers. Because we had a joint
cessant of excuse me, a joint session of Congress. It
took a lot of my personnel inside of the building.
So i'd gone over to the Senate, the House Sergeant Arms.
I'm acquired by my federal law. This is another interesting thing.
If I want to bring in any assistance for my officers,
(02:49):
any federal assistance, whether it's being National Guard, any federal assistance,
I have to buy law. Its to us nineteen seventy
get permission from the Capitol Police Board. So Sunday morning,
at nine thirty five, I went over to see the
House Sergeant Arms. Guy by the name of Paul Irving,
who I knew he carried most of the weight. He was
the big heavy hitter. Everyone kind of listened to him
(03:09):
on the Capitol police board. I think this would be
a sensitive topic for him, But I went over and
ask for national Guard support specifically, just for the premier
unarmed national Guard support. I wasn't asking for Farm Nash
Guard support at that time. He didn't approve it. He
didn't approve it specifically because he said he didn't like
the optics of the National Guards standing a line with
the Capitol in the background. And I think that was
(03:30):
because he felt is his boss, his main boss, Speaker
Pelosi would have gotten upset about it. And he also
said the intelligence didn't support it. Well, yeah, I understand
the intelligence didn't support it, but I still worried about
the size of the crowds. And I told him, you
know that I'm worried about the size of the crowds
and I'd like to have some resources on the preiter
with my officers.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Again, he at that point, can you give us a
time from again? When was this conversation?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Roughly, the conversation was on Monday, January third, three days
before January sixth.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Okay, plenty of time to muster troops if you need them.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Plenty of times, the mustard mustard troops we've we've used,
you know, in my in my history with d C
Police and even with with Capitol Police, who even national Guard,
And there's plenty of time. But it gets it gets
even better because I'm going to tell you how we
knew the National Guard was prepared. So he refers me
over to Mike Stinger, who's now the chairman of the
Capitol Police Board and he became the chairman on that day.
(04:24):
I went over to his office, Mike Sneer was and
and I came back later on, right a little bit
after eleven. He's in the office and I can tell
he's already been given heads up. I'm coming over to
ask for National Guard. When I asked for National Board support,
he won't approve it. Again, he's concerned. Later on he
in April that after January sixth, I finally asked me
and said he do you know I was coming over,
said Irvi and told him, but anyway, he wouldn't He
(04:45):
wouldn't approve it. He said, you know, once you call,
do you know anybody at the DC National Guard if
we need their assistants? How quickly could they get here?
And I know the committitian General of the DC National Guard,
William Walker, General Walker. I don't MI can call General Walker,
but that's still not going to help us grab you know,
issues on the perimeter. But he said, I got to
run out. He's going to the swearing in of members
of Congress, and he said that's that's the best we're
(05:07):
going to do. We wouldn't approve it, so he leaves out.
I go back to my office later on that day.
Just a short time later, I get back. One of
my deputy chief's approaches me and says, we received a
call from Carol Corbyan. She's the program manager for the
Defense Support for Civil Authorities, which is the National Guard,
and coming to support you know, civil authorities law enforcement
it's needed. She was calling to ask if we were
(05:28):
going to be requesting the National Guard for January six
Now I had just been denied twice my request for
the use of the National Guard on January sixth, and
by the law, I had to tell him to tell
her no, we aren't. I've dealt with her before because
I'd been denied, So coming into January sixth, I don't
have that Pentagon had offered National Guard. I had to
(05:49):
turn it down. I've been denied twice by the House
and Senate Sargeant Arms. So coming into January sixth, twelve
fifty eight, in the command center, we're working with the
pipe bomb that we started dealing with at the Republican
National Committee, which is just a couple of blocks south
of the US Capitol. We had been alerted of a
pipe bomb. I want to say, right around twelve forty
one pm, we're dealing with that. I mean, my watchmana
(06:12):
are showing me some pictures of the pipe bomb. When
somebody says we have a large crowd approaching our west front.
I look up, but we have cameras. There's two roadways
coming up towards the west front, right next to the
reflecting Pool, Pennsylvania Avenue, Maryland Avenue, coming up to two circles.
I see a couple hundred people at each of the
circles approaching our fence line, and some of the people
(06:32):
in the group got very confrontational and physical with the
officers very quickly. I've handled lots of protests. I've seen
lots of you know, where the marchers come up to
the line, and the gate, and we'll usually have ten
fifteen minutes of back and forth where they're yelling. And
so I got before he gets to this point. This
was a matter of a matter of minutes before they
started pulling out the gate and swinging at my officers.
And again this was a core group of people that
(06:54):
were in the in the crowd. So I look down.
That's twelve fifty three. I see what's going on. I
you know, having come from DC Police, I reach over
dcent Police and say, hey, if you guys get some resources,
send them our way. And then at twelve fifty eight,
I called the Senate sor of the I'm sorry the
house star's arms, Paul Irving, to request permission. I'm still
required by law to request permission even in an emergency.
(07:16):
Now Congress has since changed that law December of twenty
twenty one, they changed it and allows the chiefs calling
resources that I having to go to this but anyway,
they say admitted the failure. So twelve fifty eight, I
call Paul Irving. It took eleven calls. Let me back up.
I start following myself. My adrenaline start pumping when I'm
talking about this. So when I first called him. I said,
(07:37):
it's bad on the West Front. My officers are getting overrun.
I need federal resources, and now I need permission to
call in the National art. He says to me, quote,
let me run this up to chain and I'll be
right back to you. So he and he has a
liaison officer seing right behind me watching the same thing
I'm seeing on my screens. I get off the phone.
I'm dumbfounded. I'm seeing again my officer are now backing
(07:58):
up as the crowd's getting starting to move on the
on the Capitol. So I called Mike Stinger, the Senate
Surgeon Arms call him immediately and say, hey, you know
we're getting over run again. He has the theas I'm
sitting right behind me. I need immedia permission to bring
in the National Guard. He said, what did Paul Irving
tell you that he's going to run it up the chain.
He's going to run up to speak a Pelosi and
can get right back to me. He said, let's wait
(08:18):
to hear from Paul Irving. I made eleven more phone
calls to the two of them, seventy one minutes before
I finally got approval at two nine pm. For Michael
Barry James is.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
The goodchief of the Capitol Police on January sixth, twenty
twenty one, with Stephen Son. He's our guest telling his story.
And we were now in the middle of the afternoon.
You've waited over an hour, You've made a number of calls.
(08:51):
The situation is turning in your estimation. Are the people
who are beginning to approach the Capitol do you suspect
that any of those individuals are federal plans? Do you
suspect that they're paid activists? Do you think they're just
people who showed up or frustrated? Do you have a
sense of that?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So are you asking like at the time were you asking?
Now that I reflect back on it, I'm glad you asked.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I guess both would be important to know.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah. So at the time, all I was thinking about
had how we get my officer some some assistants. Uh.
They were they were getting the rear ends handed to them. Uh,
And I need to get them some assistants real quick.
And I was just dumbfounded as repeatedly denials and delays
I was getting. You know, looking back on it, you know,
I keep hearing I try and you know, really stick
to it. Be a person of the facts. If I
(09:43):
know facts, I'm going to pass them on. You know,
I hear a lot about you know, there could have
been tief in the in the crowd. There could have
been you know, different people in the crowd very well
could be if I if I had facts that I'd
absolutely pass that, pass that on to you. Looking at
some of the videos, you see a lot of people
all wearing you know, looks like a brand new quit in,
brand new hats, flags, stuff like that. Who knows, who
(10:04):
knows what that that could tell you, But I will
tell you. You know, I've suspected you know, all along. It
wouldn't be unusual front event in Washington. See when you
talk about federal agents, whether it's a Fourth of July celebration,
a state funeral, a h Terry Boston parade, even something
like that. We we still have, you know, put together
some of these plain closed teams that oftentimes are made
(10:27):
up of you know, people from the Washington Field Office
for the FBI, Secret Service, some of the Joint Terrorist
Task Force members just to go out there and keep
an eye look for any issues or if we get
a suspicious package, you can you know, respond to the
suspecial package quickly to start making assessments. So it wouldn't
I wouldn't have been surprised to think, okay, we did
some some plain closed assets in the in the crowd.
(10:48):
But you know, as I began to do my research,
and you know, I got I literally got stripped out
of my office the very next day and I hopefully
we have time to get to that. And I literally
sat at home and I had people come out of
the wood work, whistle wor wers come out and start
pushing information to me. And found out that the FBI
had been receiving information just prior to January sixth that
(11:09):
indicated there's several what they considered domestic terrorists that were
most likely planning to come to Washingt d C. For
the event. Then as we got closer, the numbers seem
to seem to get higher, so you know, and I
found this in the aftermat that at one point they're
tracking nineteen people that were on their domestic terrorists list
as coming to planning on coming to Washington, d C. Now,
(11:30):
I can tell you this, they're not tracking them with
just nobody. They're going to be tracking them with agents
if they think somebody comes in, they know they have
a flight coming in or something like that, they're going
to be putting eyes on these people. So it wouldn't
you know, if we're we have that many people that
they suspect our domestic terrorists, I suspect you're going to
have significant resource in the crowd watching them. So that's
(11:52):
where I based my opinion on. Now, Christopher Ray has
come out and said that there was a number of
what they call confidential human sources chs is in the crowd.
Some people have said the chs is were the ones
watching the uh uh their domestic terrorist targets. I don't
buy that. That's not what I considered the police work,
because you can only trust a CHS so much. But
(12:12):
that's where I always base my opinion on that. You
know what, I would have been surprised there's playing closed
ass in the ground. But when you start hearing about
you know, there's some of these people that are out
there that are pushing them to get into the capital
and move on the capital. I find that very very
concerning and if and if proven be true, that's you know,
that's definitely not what they're supposed to be doing. And
that is, you know, contrary to the oath of oath
(12:33):
they take.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I know, you choose your words carefully, not out of cowardice,
but out of caution. Is it outside the realm that
that could be the case, outside the realm that.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Some people could be pushing pushing the group. Well, when
you act and you think about why why am I
denying repeatedly in advance? Why am I denying while you know,
just the blatant that while my officers are under attack,
and then I run into problems with the with the Pentagon. Finally,
once I do get approval approving my request, and now
(13:11):
we find out that there's probably some influence coming from
General Millie on on that the influence on from General
Milly onto Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller that caused
him to place additional restrictions on the National Bar that
no one knew about. When you start looking at that,
you're like, yeah, this really, you know, it could make
a really interesting conspiracy theory novel when you look at
what was going on in that aspect, and you know, really,
(13:33):
who who is you? You know, getting the most traction
out of the whole January sixth initiative? You know, we
haven't been able to identify the pipe bomber yet, which
is I find that very interesting, But I mean, you know,
your listeners probably would be surprised. And when I activated
mutual aid, the New Jersey State Police made it before
(13:54):
the DC National Guard coming down to the DC. Nash
Guard had one hundred and fifty five troops within eye
side of capital and they didn't get the until five
forty pm at night, well on once all the fighting
was over. And remember I told you well when I
called when I finally got in touch with the Pentagon,
the Pentagon wanted me on a conference call. This was
brought on two thirty four pm. They wanted me on
(14:16):
a conference call to then find out why I'm requesting
National Guard. I think that would have been fairly self
evident with anybody watching this on TV. But I'm on
the phone with the guy mat by the name of
Lieutenant General Walter Pyat, also on the phone with me
as mayor bounser, chief of Police for the DC, Plice
Forrobert Conti, the Director of Emergency Mangineer for DC, A
(14:36):
number of other people, including a guy that at one
point was the Army's acting General Council Colonel Earl Matthews.
He has since come out as a whistle boar on
my behalf. And I told him, I said, I need
a National Guard support immediately. This is life and death situation.
They've now gotten into the Capitol. We're battling to keep
Hi out of the capital. And he tells me the
(14:56):
exact same thing. Paul Irving told me I don't like
the op of the National Guard standing a line with
capital in the background. I was dumb found I'm hearing
the exact same thing. So you know, I'm wondering, is
there some talking points behind this? I repeatedly, I'm bagging.
I'm almost at tears, and the marriage Fountain said this.
I was almost at tears begging him to send me resources,
(15:17):
and kept tearing this over and over, and he said
his recommendations to that that I my request. That was
his first response. Uh, And then I kept pleading with him.
He said, well, I'm gonna run this up to chain
and that's when we had the shooting of action. Babbitt
and I had to get on the phone.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It's uh, it's so frustrating, man. I think in many ways,
I look at what's happened in your career. I think
of how many officers that day never recovered, and we
know that some took their own lives.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I think how many.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
People who went to the Capitol, in my suspicion, who
did little or nothing and relatively speaking, and ended up
in prison. I just think of this as horrible, as
as Richard Nixon or as Gerald Ford referred to the
next administration. It feels like a long national nightmare, and
it's it's extremely, extremely disturbing. And I believe you don't
(16:11):
have to and I'm not saying you do or don't.
I believe that the various forces were at work here
and a lot of good people doing their jobs, and
a lot of people, patriots got caught up in it
and were terribly terribly affected by you mentioned earlier you
made reference to, and I hope we'll have time.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
To get to that.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Who will make time in the next second Stephen Sunday's
our guess. He was a Capital City police chief on
January the Capitol police chief on January sixth, twenty twenty one,
Jackie you here?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Where's Jackie?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
A crash that killed Congresswoman Jackie or.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Here?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Stephen Sundays I guess he was the police chief of
the Capitol Police on January sixth of twenty twenty one,
that fateful day, and you made reference chief to getting
pulled into an office. I wasn't sure exactly, but you said,
I hope we'll have time to talk about that. And
I made a little scribble note to go back to
that so that I do make time for you. So
go ahead to the floor.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Is yours? I appreciate it. So you know, here we
are January January sixth. We get everybody back back in
the session. The National Guard finally shows up at five
forty pm. We have to swear them in a special
police officers. They once they get off their bus, the
fighting is over. You know, We've got everything done. Everything
(17:32):
is secured. I brought in seventeen law enforcement agencies, seventeen
hundred police officers. That's all taken care of. What do
they do. They line up with all their riote gear,
take a picture with the Capitol in the background and
put it on Military Time magazine. I thought you'd just
get a kick out of that. When the Pentagon had
said they were so concerned about the optics and to
have that bed the optics that they took away from it.
That was interesting. So the next day we're briefing January seventh.
(17:55):
In the morning of January seventh, we're briefing members of Congress.
Now now mind you, that evening I talked to Speaker
Pelosi three times. First time brought around five thirty five.
I'd gone over to brief Vice President Pence. We had
him at a secure location on Capitol Hill. He had
been calling me a couple of times asking me to
come over and brief him. I couldn't lead, because you know,
(18:15):
I had to be up in the pan Center getting
things under control. But once we could, I went over
to brief him. When I briefed him of when we
can get them back into session, he got Speaker Pelosi
on a call. We breef sure. And this has now
all come out. You see the film footge that comes
out from her daughter that was with her Speaker Pelosi,
which he's saying, I take responsibility, and you'll see some
of this that I talked about. And there's a video
(18:36):
of me with Pence and her getting a call from Pence,
and that's one of the calls. So I talked to him.
I talked her three times, So the next day, we're
briefing my oversight. We're briefing members of Congress about, you know,
what the plan is, moving forward with the plans with
national Board support. When I get a call that Speaker
Pelosi is right around one o'clock in the afternoon, is
getting ready to go on national TV and call from
(18:58):
my resignation. I said, okay, my general counsel and my
chief administrative officers, you know, said hey, let's go in
your office. We'll watch it there. Gave my wife a
little heads up, went in, watched it and knows about
a twenty minute press conference and it's on YouTube. You
can watch. It's the very end of the press conference.
It's a planning question. Somebody asked, you know, what are
you gonna do about the security figures up on Capitol Hill.
(19:21):
She says, that's a great question. We're going to do
an after action study, which would have been smarter if
she just stopped there. But then she calls me out
by name and says, I'm calling for the resignation of
Chief's son. There was a failure of leadership at the top,
and you know he has to go. He failed. I'm
trying to think exactly what she said, but you could
(19:41):
tell she studies over her voice for a little bit. Now,
mind you, I had caught tried to get National Guard
in advance on January third and repeatedly on January sixth,
have been denied by her sergeant at arms specifically. And
then she goes on national TV says there's a failure
of leadership at the top of the Capitol police calls
me out by name, then tells the American public I
haven't even called her since this curve, which is a lie. Uh,
(20:03):
and then calls from my resignation. You know, I sat
and talked to my wife. I was having slept for
thirty six hours. I was shell shocked. I said, you
know fine, I submitted my my letter of resignation with
a three week transition period in the very that The
very next morning, I got a call saying you're immediately.
I was cut off from all my computer access uh
(20:25):
and was to move out of my office immediately. So
over that weekend I actually was moving everything at my
office and has never stepped back and foot in that
office again. Nobody has talked to me. Uh, well, very little.
I had to go down for a couple of conferences
but yeah, there wasn't get didn't get access to the investigation,
nothing like that. So so I agree there was there
(20:46):
was a number of key people in that crowd that
I think were problematic, But I think a lot of
those people in that crowd were what I call strap hangers,
people that just kind of followed along, looked at the crowd,
went in, didn't do anything, didn't assault the officers at all.
You know that, I think, you know, it's a shame
how some of these people got treated. I've been in
policing for a long time. I've never seen that type
(21:09):
of levels of sentencing handed down, even for APO assaultan
police officer. So I was kind of surprised by that.
But you know, to be to be stripp away from
an agency, I loved when I tried to prevent that.
Now Congress has come out if you look at some
of the recent hearings and reports, Congress has said if
the Sergeant at Arms had approved Sun's request for dashboard
(21:30):
support on January third, chances are the capital have never
been breached. And then in December seventeenth, twenty twenty four,
under Chairman Very Louder Route their last report that they
did now that I think the committee's coming back again.
Their last report exonerates me by name. But I'm still
fighting to get the retirement. My retirement was stripped all
(21:52):
you know, all benefits, everything like that. It was immediately stripped. Yeah,
oh yeah, yep, yeah I was. I was only a
few months away from me totally totally vested. And I
do believe if the facts have been known, I may
even still be there today. Who knows, but yeah, they
so they exonerated me December seventeenth, twenty twenty four. I'm
(22:13):
one of maybe a handful of people in history that
Congress has exonerated by name, which is which is interesting.
But I'm still working with the committee, still working with
Chairman Laudermilk, you know, working to get some executive branch
support to have them look at my case. Didn't see
about you know, returning whatever benefits may be stript from me.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
How many years in law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I did, total of thirty years in law enforcement. I
did retire from DC Police. I did get my retirement
from DC Police. But for me, it's it's now just
a it's not the federal retirement's not anything big. But
for me, it's the principle. It is the fact that
you know, I tried to stop this. I tried to
stop it repeatedly. It was repeatedly denied. And this all
you know I've got. I've turned over all my phone records,
(22:59):
my transcripts, my email that they have everything. And I
just find that that interesting that you know I'm the
one targeted. But you know, well we'll fight. I know.
The truth is, the truth is coming out. And as
more the truth comes out, and the better it looks
for me.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Lives are destroyed in this manner. You're not going to
allow your life to be destroyed because you are a
survivor and a prevailer, but lesser men would be. And
I think it's very important to see, you know, Chief Son,
I always counsel doing what I do. I am approached
with a lot of what will be called conspiracy theories,
(23:36):
and that is, you know, sometimes slapping a pejorative tag
on a on a theory that might very well have
otherwise been legitimate. So I have come to learn and
I counsel this often. You have to be careful that
you don't believe every conspiracy theory that is offered, just
(23:57):
because you're prone to believing and in lined and biased
and prejudice toward conspiracy theories. However, the parallel to that
is you have to be careful if you refuse to
believe anything called a conspiracy theory, or you'll end up
eighteen shots into Joe Biden's protocol and Fauci's laughing at
your funeral. So I think there is somewhere in between
(24:19):
where you have a more temperate, measured approach to news
of the day. But several of the things that you
describe strike me as so outside the chain of command,
so outside traditional policing principles, particularly as it relates to
a highly political environment. And I realize that you know
(24:42):
much more and could say much more damning things, and
I respect the fact that you're holding that tight that
would be in your defense. But these are things that
I think every American needs to know, and that the
Liz Cheney Show trial and all of that which they
didn't allow you to speak to you know, I consider
this to be a major calamity, a major disaster in
(25:07):
American life that needs to be explored to extremely great extent. Chief,
if you can hold with me for one more segment,
having they remain scared the death of you, and they
remain scared.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
To death of Trump. Michael Barry shows You're not going
anywhere even if Trump does. You're not.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Even sunned. Is our guest s u ind If you'd
like to look him up. He's he's written a book
about all this. We'll talk about that in just a moment.
He has giving an interview now. He's the former police
chief of the Capitol Police. On January sixth, twenty twenty one,
Nancy Pelosi went after him and basically destroyed his career.
As it were, Chief, sound you you had a lot
(25:52):
of guys. How big is the Capitol Police Force?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Capitol Police Force? When I was there, a lot of
people are kind of surprised by it. It's nine hundred
and sixty three officers with a budget of about four
hundred and sixty three million dollars. It comes out to
me about the twenty fifth department in the country.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
My sons both I have a son who's a senior
in high school and a son who's now a sophomore
in college, and they interned for Congressman this summer. And
I had worked for law firm in d C thirty
years ago, so it was fun for me and my
wife to get to go back and spend some time
there and meet them for lunch and walk around the
capitol and do the tours and all that. We hadn't
done that in a long time. And I mean it's significant.
(26:34):
People don't realize it is. As you said, it would
be about the twenty fifth largest police force in the country,
and there are real security concerns, and you know, somebody
could argue that's too many or whatever else there are.
It's a spread out area. You have kind of the boulevards,
the way that the boulevards, the esplanade style, big grand
(26:54):
European boulevard that's hard to police. There's a lot that
goes into this. But I want to go back to
January sixth and the officers there. There were officers who died,
and one the claim was he was hit by blunt
force object. And my understanding is whether he was or
he wasn't. His family said he did not die from
(27:15):
blunt force trauma. But that you had a number of
officers who committed suicide. They took their own life. Their
lives were not taken by the protesters. Can you speak
to that.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Absolutely. You've got again, a lot of different questions there,
So technically there was one officer whose death was a
they went back and said, it's what they call immediately
a line of duty death. That was officer Brian sick Nick.
He was one of the officers that was in Waltston
of the fighting on the West Front. He had been
sprayed with turper spray. At one point, the media had
(27:48):
said he had been hit with the fire extinguisher, which
didn't turn out to be true. I actually know the
DC Police office that they got hit by that but
ended up later on that night at about probably close
to ten o'clock, maybe between nine and ten, was walking
with a group of officers. We now have the capital
under control. We've got a bunch officers on the perimeter,
(28:08):
insides under control. He's now walking with a couple of
Capitol Police officers and a Virginia State trooper who happens
to be a medic to go get a bike t
He's walking along and he just drops and the medic
immediately went to work on him, and I had a
chance stark from the medic. He said, you know, as
soon as he hit the ground, you there's like, you know,
he was completely unconscious. He went over to a gw
(28:30):
Hospital where they identified that he had what appeared to
be some type of a neurological issue at the base
of his brain stem with no brain activity and then
ultimately passed away the very next day. That's the case
I think you're talking about. The autopsy by the DC
medical examiner was concluded, and they concluded in the autopsy
(28:51):
that he passed away with what they said were natural
causes and he had a double stroke at the base
of his brain stem. Later on the same medical examiner
in a press conference had stated that the actually the
activities of the day contributed to his medical condition. So
it wasn't in the in the writing, but you know
(29:12):
that that was enough if you have somebody that's on
duty and then I'm just saying this from a law
enforcement management or leadership point of view. If you have
somebody that's on duty uh in conducting their their line
of duty and dies, that's going to be a line
of duty death. And this was a line of duty death.
So that was a situation with Brian sick Nick. Then
what you had is on that Saturday, which would have
(29:35):
been the ninth, January ninth, you had the first of
a series of suicides first by the name of Howard
Leaving Goood. He was a US Capitol police officer, lived
out in Paterfac County. Committed suicide. I was in moving
all the stuff out of my office when my watchmanager
came in and passed on that that news to me. Uh,
(29:56):
the person who was acting you they made acting chief.
And that's the whole story in itself. I was at
home and I had to call her and tell her,
you know, the the news and tell her to come
on in because, uh, you know, we got a lot
to do. But yeah, So so his suicide ultimately, after
a lot of back and forth, was made a line
of duty death. My my, my thought is, you know,
(30:18):
with with many lines different lines of work, especially law enforcement,
you're exposed to a lot of different trauma you go through,
you know, a lot of different issues. There's a lot
of PTSD uh in law enforcement. But we've really fought hard,
uh to make sure that officers know that there's there's options.
You know, these officers walk around, they've got a gun
on their hip, uh, you know, whenever they're on duty
(30:39):
to carry it home with them. Uh. They have other
options than to than to turn and consider suicide. Now,
you know, it's it's okay to get counseling, and you
know a lot of agencies white counseling available to the officers.
I get concerned that, you know, it's it's always it's
rare that they'll ever make a suicide line of duty death.
(31:00):
And I just hate to think that, you know, there's
other people that thinking, Okay, now we've had his suicide
declared line of duty. Jeff Smith, who is with DC Police,
committed suicide. I want to say, apprised me ten days
later on like January nineteenth. If I have my dates right,
I think I'm pretty close. But it's been a couple
of years committed suicide. His was also determined to be
a line of duty depth. I get concerned that, you know,
(31:22):
when when you do that, I don't want to give
officers the impression that, you know, hey, if I've had
really a couple of traumatic experiences and you know, things
aren't going well for me, this is an option for
my family get you know, full full benefits in a
lot of duty death funeral. It just raised for me.
It raises concerns when they go through that that you know,
(31:43):
this may be an option for him, So you know,
I want any any officers listening that you know, this
isn't isn't a course of action that you really want
to take. You know, consider the counseling, consider what other
options are to you, and you know, don't don't turn
toward your service weapon or anything like that to solve problems.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
It's unfortunate that an individual is in a position where
that does make sense to them, and it's a good
reminder of how difficult this job is and why it
is deserving of respect. Steven Son, is there anything we
did not get to? I got about a minute that
you wanted to offer up before we close.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning the book. My intention was
to never write a book. Ye always hear about these
people writing books. I'm sitting at the desk where when
I was forced to leave. I sat down and I
started just writing every note I've done after action reports,
over and over and over again, and started putting this together.
And at first of my wife was like, be sure
this is what you want to do, because I was
relating this for fourteen hours a day every day, and
(32:42):
then when it all started coming together, you wouldn't believe
what was going on with the intelligence, with the with
the FBI, with you know, I was putting together a
briefing beforehand, and what was being told me that it's
just when you look at it, it just got so
chaotic and it didn't have to be like that. I
still believe January sixth could have been prevented if they
wanted they had listened to me. But if so many
(33:04):
people had just done their job the way they're supposed to,
we wouldn't be here talking right now. So I ended
up putting it together. It's now been referred to on
Capitol Hill as the tentative after Action of January sixth.
If your readers are interested, it's on Amazon. Get the paperback.
The paperback has the most up to date information, but
I think they'll find it shocking. It's the exoneration I got.
(33:25):
Some Congress isn't even in there because it happens since
the last edition. So I'm sure that'll be updated. But
you know, January sixth committee under very louder Muck's coming back.
You know, they may invite me down to testify. I'm
more than happy to testify. That'll be probably the third
time I've been down to testify. One time the Sele
Comitte wouldn't let me testify in public. But you're gonna
hear a little ye know. You'll read a little bit
(33:46):
about the Slight Committee and some of the issues they had.
But no, I appreciate you mentioned it, and I appreciate
your interest in the In the story, there's there's still
a lot more there.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Good surface.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Steven Son, Capitol Police Chief in Juniors.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Ex Alas has left for dull In. Thank you, and goodnight.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!