October 14, 2025 • 32 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's that time. Time time, time, Luck and load.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The Michael Verie Show is on the air.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yesterday we celebrated Columbus Day, which represents not the founding
of America, of course, that's not where Columbus arrived, not
United States of America anyway, but the modernization of civilization
in the Western world. The European influence that would lead
(00:59):
to a culture and country that would be the hallmark
of things like self governance, equality, the concept of natural
rights put into effect. Those changed the world in such
a manner as to be mind blowing. It can't imagine
(01:22):
the world without the US in it, because the influence
is so profound. It was important to President Trump that
we recognize that day, and he has demonstrated an understanding
of why it is important to celebrate our history, celebrate
(01:42):
who and what we are, and not to allow groups
among us to tell us we should be ashamed of
our history, should deny that history. You know, when in Syria,
when isis rolling through, they made sure to shatter the
(02:04):
great Christian artifacts. It's important to them to do that.
The idea is to destroy history and deny history. It's
the ultimate authoritarian move. It's a very ray Bradbury concept
that if you burn all the books there is no knowledge.
You create your own new knowledge, the Orwellian notion of
(02:26):
creating newspeak, your own language, where up means down and
down means up, and go means stop, and stop means go.
And before long you control the mindset and there is
no history to burden you. Well, you know where I
stand on the matter. I was offered the opportunity to
(02:49):
interview a gentleman by the name of GiB Kerr, and
he's written a book called Uncanceled Robert E.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You have my attention. Give Kerr Welcome to the program.
First of all, tell me why write this book. What
is your interest in this movement?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I wrote this book after Robert E. Lee was unfairly
canceled by the womb in twenty twenty twenty one. You
remember the statues coming down in Charlottesville, En Richmond, and
I don't think that it was this was in response
to cancel culture. Like we're talking about, they're trying to
(03:36):
erase history, to kind of take what I call the
serve pro approach to history like nothing ever happened before.
We've seen that with the radicals throughout history. The French Revolution,
they did away with the calendar and started with year zero.
Is that nothing had ever happened before. We saw with
the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and it really arted here in America.
(04:02):
I trace it back really to Obama when he said
he wanted to fundamentally transform America. We found out what
that meant, you know, meant teaching our kids to be
ashamed of their past and to be ashamed of the
founding fathers and everything that made America great. And we've
been through turmoil, I mean, to the We've went two
(04:23):
years where people were kneeling for the national anthem, and
on and on and on and but you know, like
every radical movement before it, the American Cultural Revolution I
think finally went too far. And now it's flaming out
and we're in the middle of, thankfully, I think, a
great restoration of American values and restoring Roberty Lee, I
(04:46):
think is an important component of that.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Roberty Lee's contributions service sacrifice have not been forgotten to
history by neglect and intentionally obscured an erased. Why do
you think that is?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
That's a good question. You know, Lee was widely held
as a hero North and South up until you know,
recently as twenty or thirty years ago. But I think
it really I think he traced it back to modern academia.
You know, higher education has been completely taken over by
leftists and historians like Howard z Enn. You've probably heard
(05:29):
of howards En, the Marxist historian who wrote the book
People's History of the United States. And Howard Zen said
that history is a weapon as a direct quote from him,
and that he saw history as a quiet revolution to
take over the institutions from within. And so now you
have historians that dominate universities. Almost every PhD in America
(05:54):
in history is a radical leftist these days, and so
definitely very many people to preserve the past and to
tell the stories. So some of the greatest UH history
books right now are being written from outside of the academia.
Unfortunately that's where we are.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Bye by necessity, as it turns out. But you know,
I have to tell you I'm a Shelby Foot fan.
I love you know, that style of this, These people
that just pour themselves into studying history and and bringing
history back to life, and not just telling the history,
(06:36):
but giving you almost an experience as if as if
you were in it, and as a child. My oldest
son's name is Crockett, and I knew by third grade
I wanted to have a son one day whose name
will be Crokeett. I was so enamored of the heroes
of the Alamo, being a lifelong textan and that has affected,
you know, many aspects of my life and who I
(06:58):
want to be, and what values I considered to hold,
and the idea of sacrifice because that was the ultimate
I think it's interesting you make the point that so
much of the best history is being written outside the
university today. I think that is a reflection both of
the changing of the guard or changing of the mindset
(07:19):
of faculty and their political views, their their biases. But
I also think that is a reflection of outsiders recognizing
that this history has to be kept alive. It is
us like the protect Philip folks say, you don't own
a protect Filip, You just you just hold on to
(07:42):
it and preserve it for the next generation. I think
there's probably that recognition, and I get the sense that
that is the reason for you to do this, because
we can't lose our history to history.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
That's right, you know. I always say truth is a
stubborn thing, and it cannot be erased. They've tried, but
now history is being written by attorneys, commercial real estate
guys like me, you know, people from outside of academia, and.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Hold on, hold with me for just a moment. The
book is uncanceled, Property Leela. Like the Berry Show, My
brother must have been about twelve years old or so,
and the husband passes and was learning to play the
guitar and the basic chords, and of course you sing
(08:39):
along to get a sense of it. I guess I've
never actually learned to play guitar, but I'm told and
in the book that he used to learn, he would
have to sing this song. And so it takes me
back to a good place, to remember our in our
little house, our rooms were right next to each other,
(09:01):
and the front doors both came at a kind of
a vortex of a triangle. So I would hear him singing,
and I would go and uh and walk in on
him while he was singing and give him grief over that.
So I don't know what what what inspired you to
play that gym, but it takes me back to a
good place. The book is uncanceled. Robert E. Lee an
open letter to the trustees of Washington and Lee University.
(09:27):
I guess it's not technically a book. I guess it's
it's a movement that has a manifesto as part of it.
Let me ask you, GiB Kerr is our guests. He's
written this. Have you had any you know, official communication
with Washington and Lee? What has been there?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Their reactions so far?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
We've had communication kind of through back channels, I would say,
to various members of the board of trustees. But the
president essicially won't talk to us. It's kind of hard
to make any progress when the other sideling engage with you.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So the man who was once the president of the university,
his successor won't speak to you about uncanceling this great man.
That's interesting, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Lee's the one who saved the school after the Civil War.
He spent the last five years of his life there.
He's buried there on campus in the chapel that he built,
and the university renamed the chapel. It's no longer Lee Chapel.
It's called University Chapel. And they took his portrait down
along with the portrait of George Washington, and they built
a wall in front of the statue to block the
(10:45):
view of Robert Lee from the chapel, So they essentially
whitewashed it, and they act as if they're ashamed of
Lee or embarrassed by any affiliation with him. You know,
My take is that I've never felt the need to apologize, really,
but I do understand that the way that particularly younger
(11:07):
generation has been indoctrinated to demonize Confederates, and to not
just Confederates, but to really hate a lot of American heroes.
I understand that there's a real need to tell Lee's story,
and that's why I wrote this book. To tell the
truth about Lee.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
And what is that truth? What is important for people
to understand.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Most people don't realize that the truth is that Lee
was opposed to slavery. Before the war, he called it
a moral and after the war he said that he
was rejoiced that slavery had been abolished. The truth is
that he was opposed to secession. He did not want
Virginia to seceed, but he felt like when Virginia did seceed,
(11:53):
that he owed his primary allegiance to his state, not
to the United States. That's that people things back then,
and so he was motivated to fight to defend Virginia
from the invasion of the Union Army, which he did magnificently,
by the way. And you know, the truth is that
after the war he was a leading voice for reconciliation.
(12:16):
He did everything he could to bring the country back
together after the war, and he bore all of his
suffering nobly, never complained. He wasn't a whiner, and he
was a noble character. And you know, you referenced George
Orwell earlier. Orwell said that who controls the path controls
the future. And America's path is incomplete without Roberty Lee.
(12:40):
Because he's the greatest example of courage and virtue in
American history. That's why we need him, That's why I
wrote this book.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
What was your connection to this what interested you in
this subject in this movement?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Well, I first got introduced to Lee in fourth grade
when I wrote a paper on him. I still have that,
by the way. And then I went to school at
Washington and Lee and Robertie Lee was everywhere, and you know,
in the nineteen eighties, and his portrait was up in
every fraternity house. Even the grocery store had a portrait
of Lee, and Stonewall Jackson, and people still admired him
(13:16):
in those days. And so and I was in a
fraternity to Kappa Alpha order. Robertie Lee is considered the
spiritual founder of Kappa Alpha. We were taught to emulate
General Lee's character as pledges. We didn't always live up
to that standard, but we tried. And you know, I
was fascinated that Robertie Lee was everywhere, and I thought,
(13:39):
could anybody really be that great? He was treated like
a saint in the South, and being from Missouri, you know,
I had that show me factor. I thought, I got
to find out more about this, and so the more
I read, the more fascinated I became. That Lee really
is I think the most remarkable example of character and virtue,
(14:00):
maybe next to George Washington in our country's history. And
so that is I think a large reason why cancel
culture is targeting him to get rid of them, because
when they eliminate heroes, they're really eliminating the values the
belief systems that those heroes stood for. And that's Christianity,
that's the love of liberty. You know, that's what the
(14:23):
Panic fathers thought for.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
You know, give you you made a point that got
my mind despiraling. So I think about historical events that occurred,
in this case one hundred and sixty years ago, but
in some cases even more two hundred years ago, and
(14:50):
I think about a relative consistency in the way in
which those events and moments and people and personalities were
perceived all the way or say, one hundred twenty thirty
years after. And all of that then changes after the
(15:11):
events and the personalities are long gone. They changed dramatically,
beginning I think probably sometime in the nineties and then
at the turn of the century, and within one generation
heroes or villains, and villains are heroes and good is
bad and it's an amazing thing. We're not talking about
how Lee was perceived shortly after the Civil War, because
(15:34):
he was revered. You know, it's interesting there's a connection
with Robert E. Lee in the state of Texas. The
song and the eyes of Texas are upon you, whichevery
University of Texas, Longhorn knows, actually comes from the then
leader of the University of Texas who had been at
Washington Lee under Robert E. Lee, and Robert E. Lee
(15:56):
would famously say, as you know, you know, conduct yourself
with chivalry and decency, because the eyes of the South
are upon you, and he considered that a great admonition.
Hold on just a moment. Give Kerr is our guest.
And the book is Uncanceled Robert E.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Lee michael Berry. They're all Duncans, And you know duncan.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Means give kerr is our guest. You pronounce a.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Curer, carry katy r r.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
He is the author of Uncanceled, Robert E. Lee Gibb.
I think it's interesting that there are a number of
folks with whom I am in communication who are interested
in preserving American history, even American history that that the
(16:47):
Obama crowd has managed to extinguish and to paint with
a really really bad brush in a number of other
people who who were not raised with this as their
perspective are afraid to say anything. So they just they
(17:07):
just back away and say, well, we'll just we won't
think about it, we won't talk about it because we
don't want the we don't want the hive to be
buzzing around us. It's just easier that way. There's a
lack of courage, but you don't have a lack of courage,
and yet you're not an individual who is retired, which
is usually the situation. I find you have a professional
(17:29):
career to consider as well, and you believe in this,
and so you're doing it. I respect that. Tell me
about that.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I did write this book
at some considerable risk, knowing that not everyone is going
to agree with my point of view. I've worked for
a large, publicly traded commercial real estate firm, and you know,
I could have been fired, and I might still be fired.
I don't know, but that's a risk that I'm willing
to take because I feel strongly enough about preserving the
(18:02):
legacy of Roberty Lee that I think people need to
stand up and tell the truth about him, and you know,
I'll deal with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
What has been the reaction that has emboldened you, that
has delighted you people You've heard from students, teachers, whatever
that may be.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, you know, I've been very pleasantly surprised. I expected
the worst. And you know, there's been some haters on
social media. They're always out there, people that leave nasty
Amazon reviews and that sort of thing. But for the
most part, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. It's been
people saying thank you for standing up for Roberty Lee
(18:49):
and for what he stood for. And you know, it's
kind of taught me a lesson, which is that the
woke mobsters, they're a bunch of coward They don't like
it when you when you stand up to him. They're
like bullies. And you probably remember when you're a kid,
the best thing you can ever do to a bully
is punch him in the nose. Most of the time
(19:10):
they back down. So this book is kind of a uh,
you know, in a way, sort of a proverbial punch
of the nose to the left. And I hope more
folks like it follow.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I'm I'm I'm amazed by the moment. I'm not sure
how well it's known that Robert E. Lee is summoned
to the White House to consider uh leading the Union forces,
and I think it was win Phil Scott was involved
(19:46):
and Lee's leadership and he was just revered. His leadership
was legendary. And he has this tough decision and he
comes home and he chooses his state, which of course
would bring ruin upon his reputation, his family, his wealth.
(20:08):
And yet I never got the sense that he regretted
that decision, did he.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
No, he did not, He said, I think after the
war that he would have done everything the same way. Yes,
he was offered command of the army that Abraham Lincoln
announced he was going to raise in April of eighteen
sixty one. Seventy five thousand troops. Would have been the
largest army ever assembled on North America and the North
American continent. And Lee, you know, he had toiled away
(20:37):
in obscurity for about thirty years in the US Army,
never just surpassed the rank of colonel, and he was
given this opportunity to be in charge of the biggest
army ever and to be the commanding general and his
chance for glory and fame, and he turned it down
because he could not take part in an invasion of
his home state. Those were his principles. And so to
(21:00):
suffer the consequences, they lost their home at Arlington, which
is now Arlington National Cemetery, lost everything. And you know,
it's interesting that Lee never owned his own house, and
his whole life he lived in his wife's house at Arlington,
and then after the war he lived in the President's
house at Washington College. But no, he said, that he
(21:22):
would not have done anything differently.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Talk about his move to what became Washington and Lee
his move to be the university president, how that came about,
and how it went.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You know, the school had been raided by the Union Army.
It's right next to the Virginia Military Institute, which the
Union Army had essentially destroyed. And so after the war
they were down to only about forty students and they
were really teetering on the verge of insolvency. And as
a hail Mary, they wrote a letter to Robert Elate said, well,
(21:59):
you be president of the school. And to their shock
and surprise, he said yes, and he rode into Ted
on his famous horse traveler and assumed the presidency. And
they went from forty students over four hundred. Money came
flowing in to support to rebuild the school from both
the north and the south. By the way, and he
(22:21):
really he not only saved the school, but he shaped
the character of the school by emphasizing the honor code
and by his one rule. The students asked, and one
of the rules here in general? And he said, we
have one rule, and that is that every student must
conduct himself as a gentleman, and so that was the
tradition at Washington and Lane that he established.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
It's amazing to me that after that war he should
seemingly be broken, and yet everything I've ever read was
not that. It was that he was very measured and
very thoughtful. But as I said at the beginning, which
(23:06):
has always struck me about him, that there was not
a sense of regret. He was a proud Virginian. He
loved Virginia. He did his duty, and I think he
left it on the field, and he felt that he
had done what he believed to be the right thing.
And that says a lot about the man. You have
not spoken about his deep faith, but that was the man.
(23:26):
It was family and faith and his state, which at
the time was like his nation.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's right. And his faith was very important to him.
I mentioned he built the chapel where he's buried, and
he worshiped there every morning. I encouraged the students to
join him there, read the Bible every night with his family.
A very deeply religious man, and he also studied the Stoics,
as did most Americans at that time, studied the ancient
(23:55):
Greeks and the Romans, and he was particularly fond of
quoting the Roman emperor the Stoic markets Aurelius and his
meditation misfortune nobly born is good fortune. And I quit
that in my book because I think those words sum
up Robert E. Lee perfectly. Misfortune, nobly born is good fortune.
(24:16):
And so he turns his misfortune into into our fortune today,
which is his legacy. That we still remember him today.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And that you proudly carry the torch to remember as
we all should. The book is uncanceled. Roberty Lee. Give
Curry's our guest.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
One more thing with him committed, had not been going
on down there, probably.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Give Curries our guest, and the book is uncanceled. Robert E.
Lee An open letter to the Trustees of Washington and
Lee University. GiB I was. I was reading through some
of the materials I had on this, and there was
a timeline Will Dudley being appointed president of Washington and
(25:05):
Lee in twenty seventeen, and then in twenty twenty begins
this effort to just scrub from the university its namesake
and his influence on this school, which, as you noted,
the school was almost abandoned. When he comes in and
makes this a very prestigious university with now a great
(25:29):
legacy of character and the sort of thing and values
that we would want kids to have. But I was
reading about let me see if I can find it
here a group called the Generals Redoubt. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, that's an alumni organization that I'm a member of.
I'm on the board of. And the General's for a
Doubt kind of popped up organically among a bunch of
the Alarms who were upset about what was going on
at the university. So the Jonales for Doubt has been
spreading the word, raising awareness among alumni. We send out
(26:08):
a weekly email to about twelve thousand alumni and keep
them informed about what's going on on campus. We've raised
a considerable amount of money. We purchased a property outside
of town by the university where we have a national
headquarters now, so we've planted our flag. We're not going away,
and we're there to preserve the traditions, the values, the
(26:32):
history of the university. And we're engaging with students and
you know it's funny, the students love us. The students
wear our hats and T shirts and whatnot. The faculty
in the administration that don't really care for us too much.
The faculty, by the way, voted over is it seventy
(26:53):
or eighty percent in favor of removing Roberty Lee's name
from the university, which is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I'm seeing here seventy eight percent after the president
appointed a commission to determine such things. You know, it's
a very I have a friend named Davin James, and
he has a song called a Bocco and s Freeway,
and it's about the music in Texas and how Nashville
has changed. And there's a line he has in there.
(27:24):
I bet they wouldn't let Wayland on the Rhyman stage today.
And the idea that the grand old Obry wouldn't allow
this great country music singer because it is so changed
to skinny jeans and pop music with a twang. But
good on you, good on you, GiB for doing this.
I think I have my own personal respect and lifelong
(27:49):
study of Robert E. Lee, which made this quite interesting
to me. But on a bigger scale than even that,
is the idea that ideas matter, that courage and conviction
should be our driving force, and that cancelation's greatest power
is the fear of it, because then no one stands
(28:10):
up for anything. And so I admire you for that,
especially because you are in the middle of your career
rather than being someone who has nothing professional per se
to lose. And I think that's fantastic. I think that
means you believe in what you're doing because you can
talk about it during the daylight hours to people who
(28:30):
wear suits and our potential clients and of course colleagues.
I think that's incredible. That is incredibly commendable, I must say,
and I hope that serves to inspire other people as
it should. At the end of all of this, what
(28:51):
have you come to learn? Are you more hopeful than
you were in the people of this country and their
courage or have you disappointed at how many people said, yeah,
Roberty Leave is a very important figure, but let's not
fight this. What you know, what do we gain from it?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, well, first of all, thank you for those nice words,
and yes, I am optimistic, and like I said earlier,
truth is a stubborn thing and truth always wins out
in the end. And we see we see the small
signs of progress, Roberty Leaf actually making a comeback. You
probably saw recently, they restored the twenty foot portrait of
(29:31):
Roberty Lee in the library at West Point last month.
And I know on your show you've you've talked in
the past about the Midland Lee High School. There's a
high school in Canadalla County, Virginia, the Stonewall Jackson High School.
They restored their name, and I'm actually involved in a
as an expert witness in a suit where they're being
(29:51):
sued by the NAACP to remove the Stonewall Jackson name.
But that's taught me that we need to stand up
to these bullies, because that's that's what these weolcome lobsters are.
They're trying to intimidate us in the silence, and we've
got truth on our side. We just need to stand
up to the truth and have the courage of our convictions.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I think the great scourge of this nation is an
inability to confront difficult aspects of history, and racism being
one of those. But it's important to remember that this
does not happen in a vacuum. There are people who
stand to gain from it personally, professionally, financially by stoking
things and encouraging things and stretching things into untruths. And
(30:36):
it's very hard to have the things and arrows of ridiculous, absurd,
hurtful things said about you and what you stand for,
and yet you have to do it right. There is
nobility in that, to go back to your Marcus Aurelius quote,
there is nobility in that. There's a strength in that,
(30:57):
and it sustains itself.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I think this is fantastic, Gibb. I wish we had
more time, but keep up the good work. You are
truly an inspiration. The book is called Uncanceled. Robert E. Lee,
thank you for taking time to speak to us today, Concern.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Thank you so much. Michael really appreciate being on the show.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Don't give up, folks. Don't give up on our people,
don't give up on our land, don't give up on
our system. There are good people out there, and they're brave,
and they're courageous and their self bless and they stand
up and do what they believe to be the right thing,
(31:40):
knowing good and well that they will be called the
worst of names for it, and yet they persist. Wow,
that is just amazing to me. It really is. I
used the word when our guest was on. But it's
an inspiration. Let that be inspiration to you and be
(32:01):
an inspiration for the next person behind you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Jentan Ellis has left for doing, thank you and good night.
It's that time. Time time, time, Luck and load.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The Michael Verie Show is on the air.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yesterday we celebrated Columbus Day, which represents not the founding
of America, of course, that's not where Columbus arrived, not
United States of America anyway, but the modernization of civilization
in the Western world. The European influence that would lead
(00:59):
to a culture and country that would be the hallmark
of things like self governance, equality, the concept of natural
rights put into effect. Those changed the world in such
a manner as to be mind blowing. It can't imagine
(01:22):
the world without the US in it, because the influence
is so profound. It was important to President Trump that
we recognize that day, and he has demonstrated an understanding
of why it is important to celebrate our history, celebrate
(01:42):
who and what we are, and not to allow groups
among us to tell us we should be ashamed of
our history, should deny that history. You know, when in Syria,
when isis rolling through, they made sure to shatter the
(02:04):
great Christian artifacts. It's important to them to do that.
The idea is to destroy history and deny history. It's
the ultimate authoritarian move. It's a very ray Bradbury concept
that if you burn all the books there is no knowledge.
You create your own new knowledge, the Orwellian notion of
(02:26):
creating newspeak, your own language, where up means down and
down means up, and go means stop, and stop means go.
And before long you control the mindset and there is
no history to burden you. Well, you know where I
stand on the matter. I was offered the opportunity to
(02:49):
interview a gentleman by the name of GiB Kerr, and
he's written a book called Uncanceled Robert E.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You have my attention. Give Kerr Welcome to the program.
First of all, tell me why write this book. What
is your interest in this movement?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I wrote this book after Robert E. Lee was unfairly
canceled by the womb in twenty twenty twenty one. You
remember the statues coming down in Charlottesville, En Richmond, and
I don't think that it was this was in response
to cancel culture. Like we're talking about, they're trying to
(03:36):
erase history, to kind of take what I call the
serve pro approach to history like nothing ever happened before.
We've seen that with the radicals throughout history. The French Revolution,
they did away with the calendar and started with year zero.
Is that nothing had ever happened before. We saw with
the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and it really arted here in America.
(04:02):
I trace it back really to Obama when he said
he wanted to fundamentally transform America. We found out what
that meant, you know, meant teaching our kids to be
ashamed of their past and to be ashamed of the
founding fathers and everything that made America great. And we've
been through turmoil, I mean, to the We've went two
(04:23):
years where people were kneeling for the national anthem, and
on and on and on and but you know, like
every radical movement before it, the American Cultural Revolution I
think finally went too far. And now it's flaming out
and we're in the middle of, thankfully, I think, a
great restoration of American values and restoring Roberty Lee, I
(04:46):
think is an important component of that.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Roberty Lee's contributions service sacrifice have not been forgotten to
history by neglect and intentionally obscured an erased. Why do
you think that is?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
That's a good question. You know, Lee was widely held
as a hero North and South up until you know,
recently as twenty or thirty years ago. But I think
it really I think he traced it back to modern academia.
You know, higher education has been completely taken over by
leftists and historians like Howard z Enn. You've probably heard
(05:29):
of howards En, the Marxist historian who wrote the book
People's History of the United States. And Howard Zen said
that history is a weapon as a direct quote from him,
and that he saw history as a quiet revolution to
take over the institutions from within. And so now you
have historians that dominate universities. Almost every PhD in America
(05:54):
in history is a radical leftist these days, and so
definitely very many people to preserve the past and to
tell the stories. So some of the greatest UH history
books right now are being written from outside of the academia.
Unfortunately that's where we are.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Bye by necessity, as it turns out. But you know,
I have to tell you I'm a Shelby Foot fan.
I love you know, that style of this, These people
that just pour themselves into studying history and and bringing
history back to life, and not just telling the history,
(06:36):
but giving you almost an experience as if as if
you were in it, and as a child. My oldest
son's name is Crockett, and I knew by third grade
I wanted to have a son one day whose name
will be Crokeett. I was so enamored of the heroes
of the Alamo, being a lifelong textan and that has affected,
you know, many aspects of my life and who I
(06:58):
want to be, and what values I considered to hold,
and the idea of sacrifice because that was the ultimate
I think it's interesting you make the point that so
much of the best history is being written outside the
university today. I think that is a reflection both of
the changing of the guard or changing of the mindset
(07:19):
of faculty and their political views, their their biases. But
I also think that is a reflection of outsiders recognizing
that this history has to be kept alive. It is
us like the protect Philip folks say, you don't own
a protect Filip, You just you just hold on to
(07:42):
it and preserve it for the next generation. I think
there's probably that recognition, and I get the sense that
that is the reason for you to do this, because
we can't lose our history to history.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
That's right, you know. I always say truth is a
stubborn thing, and it cannot be erased. They've tried, but
now history is being written by attorneys, commercial real estate
guys like me, you know, people from outside of academia, and.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Hold on, hold with me for just a moment. The
book is uncanceled, Property Leela. Like the Berry Show, My
brother must have been about twelve years old or so,
and the husband passes and was learning to play the
guitar and the basic chords, and of course you sing
(08:39):
along to get a sense of it. I guess I've
never actually learned to play guitar, but I'm told and
in the book that he used to learn, he would
have to sing this song. And so it takes me
back to a good place, to remember our in our
little house, our rooms were right next to each other,
(09:01):
and the front doors both came at a kind of
a vortex of a triangle. So I would hear him singing,
and I would go and uh and walk in on
him while he was singing and give him grief over that.
So I don't know what what what inspired you to
play that gym, but it takes me back to a
good place. The book is uncanceled. Robert E. Lee an
open letter to the trustees of Washington and Lee University.
(09:27):
I guess it's not technically a book. I guess it's
it's a movement that has a manifesto as part of it.
Let me ask you, GiB Kerr is our guests. He's
written this. Have you had any you know, official communication
with Washington and Lee? What has been there?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Their reactions so far?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
We've had communication kind of through back channels, I would say,
to various members of the board of trustees. But the
president essicially won't talk to us. It's kind of hard
to make any progress when the other sideling engage with you.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So the man who was once the president of the university,
his successor won't speak to you about uncanceling this great man.
That's interesting, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Lee's the one who saved the school after the Civil War.
He spent the last five years of his life there.
He's buried there on campus in the chapel that he built,
and the university renamed the chapel. It's no longer Lee Chapel.
It's called University Chapel. And they took his portrait down
along with the portrait of George Washington, and they built
a wall in front of the statue to block the
(10:45):
view of Robert Lee from the chapel, So they essentially
whitewashed it, and they act as if they're ashamed of
Lee or embarrassed by any affiliation with him. You know,
My take is that I've never felt the need to apologize, really,
but I do understand that the way that particularly younger
(11:07):
generation has been indoctrinated to demonize Confederates, and to not
just Confederates, but to really hate a lot of American heroes.
I understand that there's a real need to tell Lee's story,
and that's why I wrote this book. To tell the
truth about Lee.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
And what is that truth? What is important for people
to understand.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Most people don't realize that the truth is that Lee
was opposed to slavery. Before the war, he called it
a moral and after the war he said that he
was rejoiced that slavery had been abolished. The truth is
that he was opposed to secession. He did not want
Virginia to seceed, but he felt like when Virginia did seceed,
(11:53):
that he owed his primary allegiance to his state, not
to the United States. That's that people things back then,
and so he was motivated to fight to defend Virginia
from the invasion of the Union Army, which he did magnificently,
by the way. And you know, the truth is that
after the war he was a leading voice for reconciliation.
(12:16):
He did everything he could to bring the country back
together after the war, and he bore all of his
suffering nobly, never complained. He wasn't a whiner, and he
was a noble character. And you know, you referenced George
Orwell earlier. Orwell said that who controls the path controls
the future. And America's path is incomplete without Roberty Lee.
(12:40):
Because he's the greatest example of courage and virtue in
American history. That's why we need him, That's why I
wrote this book.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
What was your connection to this what interested you in
this subject in this movement?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Well, I first got introduced to Lee in fourth grade
when I wrote a paper on him. I still have that,
by the way. And then I went to school at
Washington and Lee and Robertie Lee was everywhere, and you know,
in the nineteen eighties, and his portrait was up in
every fraternity house. Even the grocery store had a portrait
of Lee, and Stonewall Jackson, and people still admired him
(13:16):
in those days. And so and I was in a
fraternity to Kappa Alpha order. Robertie Lee is considered the
spiritual founder of Kappa Alpha. We were taught to emulate
General Lee's character as pledges. We didn't always live up
to that standard, but we tried. And you know, I
was fascinated that Robertie Lee was everywhere, and I thought,
(13:39):
could anybody really be that great? He was treated like
a saint in the South, and being from Missouri, you know,
I had that show me factor. I thought, I got
to find out more about this, and so the more
I read, the more fascinated I became. That Lee really
is I think the most remarkable example of character and virtue,
(14:00):
maybe next to George Washington in our country's history. And
so that is I think a large reason why cancel
culture is targeting him to get rid of them, because
when they eliminate heroes, they're really eliminating the values the
belief systems that those heroes stood for. And that's Christianity,
that's the love of liberty. You know, that's what the
(14:23):
Panic fathers thought for.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
You know, give you you made a point that got
my mind despiraling. So I think about historical events that occurred,
in this case one hundred and sixty years ago, but
in some cases even more two hundred years ago, and
(14:50):
I think about a relative consistency in the way in
which those events and moments and people and personalities were
perceived all the way or say, one hundred twenty thirty
years after. And all of that then changes after the
(15:11):
events and the personalities are long gone. They changed dramatically,
beginning I think probably sometime in the nineties and then
at the turn of the century, and within one generation
heroes or villains, and villains are heroes and good is
bad and it's an amazing thing. We're not talking about
how Lee was perceived shortly after the Civil War, because
(15:34):
he was revered. You know, it's interesting there's a connection
with Robert E. Lee in the state of Texas. The
song and the eyes of Texas are upon you, whichevery
University of Texas, Longhorn knows, actually comes from the then
leader of the University of Texas who had been at
Washington Lee under Robert E. Lee, and Robert E. Lee
(15:56):
would famously say, as you know, you know, conduct yourself
with chivalry and decency, because the eyes of the South
are upon you, and he considered that a great admonition.
Hold on just a moment. Give Kerr is our guest.
And the book is Uncanceled Robert E.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Lee michael Berry. They're all Duncans, And you know duncan.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Means give kerr is our guest. You pronounce a.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Curer, carry katy r r.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
He is the author of Uncanceled, Robert E. Lee Gibb.
I think it's interesting that there are a number of
folks with whom I am in communication who are interested
in preserving American history, even American history that that the
(16:47):
Obama crowd has managed to extinguish and to paint with
a really really bad brush in a number of other
people who who were not raised with this as their
perspective are afraid to say anything. So they just they
(17:07):
just back away and say, well, we'll just we won't
think about it, we won't talk about it because we
don't want the we don't want the hive to be
buzzing around us. It's just easier that way. There's a
lack of courage, but you don't have a lack of courage,
and yet you're not an individual who is retired, which
is usually the situation. I find you have a professional
(17:29):
career to consider as well, and you believe in this,
and so you're doing it. I respect that. Tell me
about that.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I did write this book
at some considerable risk, knowing that not everyone is going
to agree with my point of view. I've worked for
a large, publicly traded commercial real estate firm, and you know,
I could have been fired, and I might still be fired.
I don't know, but that's a risk that I'm willing
to take because I feel strongly enough about preserving the
(18:02):
legacy of Roberty Lee that I think people need to
stand up and tell the truth about him, and you know,
I'll deal with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
What has been the reaction that has emboldened you, that
has delighted you people You've heard from students, teachers, whatever
that may be.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, you know, I've been very pleasantly surprised. I expected
the worst. And you know, there's been some haters on
social media. They're always out there, people that leave nasty
Amazon reviews and that sort of thing. But for the
most part, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. It's been
people saying thank you for standing up for Roberty Lee
(18:49):
and for what he stood for. And you know, it's
kind of taught me a lesson, which is that the
woke mobsters, they're a bunch of coward They don't like
it when you when you stand up to him. They're
like bullies. And you probably remember when you're a kid,
the best thing you can ever do to a bully
is punch him in the nose. Most of the time
(19:10):
they back down. So this book is kind of a uh,
you know, in a way, sort of a proverbial punch
of the nose to the left. And I hope more
folks like it follow.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I'm I'm I'm amazed by the moment. I'm not sure
how well it's known that Robert E. Lee is summoned
to the White House to consider uh leading the Union forces,
and I think it was win Phil Scott was involved
(19:46):
and Lee's leadership and he was just revered. His leadership
was legendary. And he has this tough decision and he
comes home and he chooses his state, which of course
would bring ruin upon his reputation, his family, his wealth.
(20:08):
And yet I never got the sense that he regretted
that decision, did he.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
No, he did not, He said, I think after the
war that he would have done everything the same way. Yes,
he was offered command of the army that Abraham Lincoln
announced he was going to raise in April of eighteen
sixty one. Seventy five thousand troops. Would have been the
largest army ever assembled on North America and the North
American continent. And Lee, you know, he had toiled away
(20:37):
in obscurity for about thirty years in the US Army,
never just surpassed the rank of colonel, and he was
given this opportunity to be in charge of the biggest
army ever and to be the commanding general and his
chance for glory and fame, and he turned it down
because he could not take part in an invasion of
his home state. Those were his principles. And so to
(21:00):
suffer the consequences, they lost their home at Arlington, which
is now Arlington National Cemetery, lost everything. And you know,
it's interesting that Lee never owned his own house, and
his whole life he lived in his wife's house at Arlington,
and then after the war he lived in the President's
house at Washington College. But no, he said, that he
(21:22):
would not have done anything differently.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Talk about his move to what became Washington and Lee
his move to be the university president, how that came about,
and how it went.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You know, the school had been raided by the Union Army.
It's right next to the Virginia Military Institute, which the
Union Army had essentially destroyed. And so after the war
they were down to only about forty students and they
were really teetering on the verge of insolvency. And as
a hail Mary, they wrote a letter to Robert Elate said, well,
(21:59):
you be president of the school. And to their shock
and surprise, he said yes, and he rode into Ted
on his famous horse traveler and assumed the presidency. And
they went from forty students over four hundred. Money came
flowing in to support to rebuild the school from both
the north and the south. By the way, and he
(22:21):
really he not only saved the school, but he shaped
the character of the school by emphasizing the honor code
and by his one rule. The students asked, and one
of the rules here in general? And he said, we
have one rule, and that is that every student must
conduct himself as a gentleman, and so that was the
tradition at Washington and Lane that he established.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
It's amazing to me that after that war he should
seemingly be broken, and yet everything I've ever read was
not that. It was that he was very measured and
very thoughtful. But as I said at the beginning, which
(23:06):
has always struck me about him, that there was not
a sense of regret. He was a proud Virginian. He
loved Virginia. He did his duty, and I think he
left it on the field, and he felt that he
had done what he believed to be the right thing.
And that says a lot about the man. You have
not spoken about his deep faith, but that was the man.
(23:26):
It was family and faith and his state, which at
the time was like his nation.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's right. And his faith was very important to him.
I mentioned he built the chapel where he's buried, and
he worshiped there every morning. I encouraged the students to
join him there, read the Bible every night with his family.
A very deeply religious man, and he also studied the Stoics,
as did most Americans at that time, studied the ancient
(23:55):
Greeks and the Romans, and he was particularly fond of
quoting the Roman emperor the Stoic markets Aurelius and his
meditation misfortune nobly born is good fortune. And I quit
that in my book because I think those words sum
up Robert E. Lee perfectly. Misfortune, nobly born is good fortune.
(24:16):
And so he turns his misfortune into into our fortune today,
which is his legacy. That we still remember him today.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And that you proudly carry the torch to remember as
we all should. The book is uncanceled. Roberty Lee. Give
Curry's our guest.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
One more thing with him committed, had not been going
on down there, probably.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Give Curries our guest, and the book is uncanceled. Robert E.
Lee An open letter to the Trustees of Washington and
Lee University. GiB I was. I was reading through some
of the materials I had on this, and there was
a timeline Will Dudley being appointed president of Washington and
(25:05):
Lee in twenty seventeen, and then in twenty twenty begins
this effort to just scrub from the university its namesake
and his influence on this school, which, as you noted,
the school was almost abandoned. When he comes in and
makes this a very prestigious university with now a great
(25:29):
legacy of character and the sort of thing and values
that we would want kids to have. But I was
reading about let me see if I can find it
here a group called the Generals Redoubt. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, that's an alumni organization that I'm a member of.
I'm on the board of. And the General's for a
Doubt kind of popped up organically among a bunch of
the Alarms who were upset about what was going on
at the university. So the Jonales for Doubt has been
spreading the word, raising awareness among alumni. We send out
(26:08):
a weekly email to about twelve thousand alumni and keep
them informed about what's going on on campus. We've raised
a considerable amount of money. We purchased a property outside
of town by the university where we have a national
headquarters now, so we've planted our flag. We're not going away,
and we're there to preserve the traditions, the values, the
(26:32):
history of the university. And we're engaging with students and
you know it's funny, the students love us. The students
wear our hats and T shirts and whatnot. The faculty
in the administration that don't really care for us too much.
The faculty, by the way, voted over is it seventy
(26:53):
or eighty percent in favor of removing Roberty Lee's name
from the university, which is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I'm seeing here seventy eight percent after the president
appointed a commission to determine such things. You know, it's
a very I have a friend named Davin James, and
he has a song called a Bocco and s Freeway,
and it's about the music in Texas and how Nashville
has changed. And there's a line he has in there.
(27:24):
I bet they wouldn't let Wayland on the Rhyman stage today.
And the idea that the grand old Obry wouldn't allow
this great country music singer because it is so changed
to skinny jeans and pop music with a twang. But
good on you, good on you, GiB for doing this.
I think I have my own personal respect and lifelong
(27:49):
study of Robert E. Lee, which made this quite interesting
to me. But on a bigger scale than even that,
is the idea that ideas matter, that courage and conviction
should be our driving force, and that cancelation's greatest power
is the fear of it, because then no one stands
(28:10):
up for anything. And so I admire you for that,
especially because you are in the middle of your career
rather than being someone who has nothing professional per se
to lose. And I think that's fantastic. I think that
means you believe in what you're doing because you can
talk about it during the daylight hours to people who
(28:30):
wear suits and our potential clients and of course colleagues.
I think that's incredible. That is incredibly commendable, I must say,
and I hope that serves to inspire other people as
it should. At the end of all of this, what
(28:51):
have you come to learn? Are you more hopeful than
you were in the people of this country and their
courage or have you disappointed at how many people said, yeah,
Roberty Leave is a very important figure, but let's not
fight this. What you know, what do we gain from it?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, well, first of all, thank you for those nice words,
and yes, I am optimistic, and like I said earlier,
truth is a stubborn thing and truth always wins out
in the end. And we see we see the small
signs of progress, Roberty Leaf actually making a comeback. You
probably saw recently, they restored the twenty foot portrait of
(29:31):
Roberty Lee in the library at West Point last month.
And I know on your show you've you've talked in
the past about the Midland Lee High School. There's a
high school in Canadalla County, Virginia, the Stonewall Jackson High School.
They restored their name, and I'm actually involved in a
as an expert witness in a suit where they're being
(29:51):
sued by the NAACP to remove the Stonewall Jackson name.
But that's taught me that we need to stand up
to these bullies, because that's that's what these weolcome lobsters are.
They're trying to intimidate us in the silence, and we've
got truth on our side. We just need to stand
up to the truth and have the courage of our convictions.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I think the great scourge of this nation is an
inability to confront difficult aspects of history, and racism being
one of those. But it's important to remember that this
does not happen in a vacuum. There are people who
stand to gain from it personally, professionally, financially by stoking
things and encouraging things and stretching things into untruths. And
(30:36):
it's very hard to have the things and arrows of ridiculous, absurd,
hurtful things said about you and what you stand for,
and yet you have to do it right. There is
nobility in that, to go back to your Marcus Aurelius quote,
there is nobility in that. There's a strength in that,
(30:57):
and it sustains itself.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I think this is fantastic, Gibb. I wish we had
more time, but keep up the good work. You are
truly an inspiration. The book is called Uncanceled. Robert E. Lee,
thank you for taking time to speak to us today, Concern.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Thank you so much. Michael really appreciate being on the show.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Don't give up, folks. Don't give up on our people,
don't give up on our land, don't give up on
our system. There are good people out there, and they're brave,
and they're courageous and their self bless and they stand
up and do what they believe to be the right thing,
(31:40):
knowing good and well that they will be called the
worst of names for it, and yet they persist. Wow,
that is just amazing to me. It really is. I
used the word when our guest was on. But it's
an inspiration. Let that be inspiration to you and be
(32:01):
an inspiration for the next person behind you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Jentan Ellis has left for doing, thank you and good night.
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