September 14, 2025 • 20 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Michael Barry Joe, is there any part of the
Bible you think it's true? Well, no, it's an important question.
So when they were documenting King David, like King David.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
A real thing, there are there are shards of it that.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Are I'm sure Jesus was a real person.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
Well that we don't know. That is not a definitive Okay,
so it really is not.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Like take Paul.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We both agree Paul was legit and a real person.
Paul was a Jew, persecuted Jews, and then had his
you know, wrote the Damascus Moment. Why would he do
that except for the fact that he's crazy or like delusional.
What incentive would Paul have to do that rich ruling
class gave up everything.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
You know you're saying to me, there is there never
a case of human delusion or mass delusion or people condition.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Why suicide cults. Of course, I acknowledge that.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
The capacity, the human capacity to believe what's not true,
to believe what you want to believe, is infinite. I mean,
you are literally the person I'm talking about at the
very beginning of the movie Religious because the very first scene,
I'm sitting in the car and I'm saying that the
movie is not a spiritual quest. I mean that's what
(01:14):
we told them, so they'd signed the release. The movie
is me saying, I don't know how it could be
that so many intelligent people can wall off a part
of their mind and believe in something that part of
their mind must know is not true. That's the question
I'm going for in religious and like, you're obviously a.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Super smart and respectfully, you go ahead try and again.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I don't want to insult you on that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
You said no, I mean, go to college campus, nothing right,
but you understand my question. Interestingly, ironically, I have the
same struggle. I don't know how somebody as intelligent as you,
and I'm not trying to offend you, you could not
believe in time out hold on. All of that takes faith,
I acknowledge, but that all of the fine tuning of
(02:00):
our universe if any of those fine tunings were off
A famous a famous sign of a famous scientist said
to believe that the universe and the Earth in its
current composition was an act of randomness, would believe that
a hurricane would go through a junkyard and assemble a
seven thirty seven flight ready Boeing he's wrong. Okay, that's fine,
(02:21):
But there are so many fine tuning aspects to our
existence that I think defy the idea that this is
all randomness and all chance.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Now you know that's not logical.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
You're saying, because I don't know the answer, I'm going
to assume the answer must be that a divine intervention
did it. That's not really a scientific way. They're looking
at the cosmo.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
So the cosmo, the teleological view, not the cosmological view,
is that all of these fine tunings, when layered up
one after the other, it defies I think reason to
think that this is just a roll of the dice.
That when you see a baby come into the world,
when you see how we naturally heal, when you even
consciousness itself, I think is a pretty miraculous thing to
(03:08):
think that's all just a bunch of but if happy accidents.
But I mean, I think it's more rational to think
that that's a byproduct of design.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
You're saying, some prime mover made it so, these made
it so, these things happen. I would say, if a
prime mover could do that, whytn't skip all the suffering?
And why don't you just get us to where we're
the perfect thing. Why you need things? I don't know,
but okay, the perfect being right away, we're somehow on
(03:39):
this journey to being you know, completely immortal and healthy,
I guess, and completely moral and don't fuck each other
up and don't have sex with children and all the
bad things.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
All the evil of our well, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
All the evil and the Holocaust and why go through
all that? If you are a prime over I assume
that means you can do anything and just get us
right to the end, and then we can just what
why just a bunch of us walking around being perfect?
I mean, why is that interesting to a god? You know?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
The whole thing just don't make sense?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
I get.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So that's that's a separate question, though, of whether or
not there is something behind our existence. I mean, so
we believe that the universe started with a big bang.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Yeah, but that's not the beginning of things. That's just
the beginning of what the known universe is. The big
question is what was before that?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And we believe it's a a god, right, that's always
that's a constant.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And look, I mean, you know the miss.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No more about atheism is that we say oh there's
no God. No, we just we just say we don't know.
As Richard Dawkins always says, there's theism, which is belief
in gods, and they used to believe in many and
then it got to one, and we just believe in
one less. So there's just just not.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
How you differentiate that from agnosticism.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
There isn't. Oh that's that's another thing. That's bullshit.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
No, I don't. I'm just question No.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think a lot of atheists think that a lot
of people on my team with this, they have that
view that, you know, don't split hairs with the atheists
and the agnostics. It's like it's we're on some part
of I don't know, and I really and I'll never know.
So I really don't think about it a lot. I
don't get up for church. I try to be a
good person because I just think intrinsically it's it's good
(05:29):
for society. It's good for me to be a good
person as much as I can, and I don't need
the threat of the pitchfork in the ass to do it.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I can. I ask a question, so, how how.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Watch baseball live like a super fan with gaind.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Av But you even acknowledge though, that some people act
better if they feel as if they'll be judged a
turmain totally. Okay, No, that's that's a bit. That's a
big admission. But how do you think society best determines
what is good?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
That's a great question. I mean, isn't that what government
is always wrestling with? What makes society good?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Do you think even as an atheist the Ten Commandments?
The right side of the Ten Commandments is a good
place to start, right well, because the left side, I
think you'd have a big problem.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Right, I have a.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Problem with with eight of the ten because only two
of them are laws.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You've got a problem with eight of the ten.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Two of them are laws? Only two?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
What do you mean? Don't kill and don't steal?
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Okay, and don't steal?
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Sure, Like I mean this idea that God is that.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
You're good with those two?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Like the first four are just jealous? God should It's
just like.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
You know what, honoring your parents is not jealous Gods.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
God's like a pimp who was in the next room
and he said, who are you on the phone with there?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Girl?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
You know, I mean, I guess I'm testing that one.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
But no, it's again, I'm not offendable on this, but
I think you could have. I know you've made fun
of it religious, but there's something beautiful about not working
for a day.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Oh Sabbath, Oh a week, it's even better. But well,
the Sabbath, no, I mean, the Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Is slowing down and saying that we're not toil for that.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
But do you need why would you need a religion
to get to that? Why would you need a religion
to Hey, let's not kill each other and.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Take a day off.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Like I again, I don't need a threat or a
garret for that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Just it's just so intrinsic.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
It's it sort of reminds me of the beginning of
the Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
If it's intrinsic, then why is it that a lot
of countries that don't have Christianity struggle to come to
these realizations that, for example, you know, communist China, we're
no Hitler analogies right under MAO, which was which was
resolutely atheist.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Right resolutely Yeah, I mean, well, no, I did a
monologue in religious I.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Might have Confucianism online.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
I did a monolog and religionous about that very subject,
which is the people will say, oh, Bell, these atheistic
societies like North Korea and no, those kind of societies,
they just replaced the leader of the country for a god.
They are not atheistic. When you look at what the
(08:20):
Korean the North Korean people believe about Kim Jong's.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It's a deification.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
It's a I mean completely the same shit that he
when he was born, winter turned to spring.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
He once he'll be a mortal in the heaven.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
First time he.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Played golf, he got eleven holes in one. He invented
the hamburger.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I'm not making that more improbable than a virgin birth.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It is, it really is. I'm not making this up.
But they believe that.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
So don't tell me North Korea is a theistic They're
not atheistic, but they there is a in China at least,
and of course in the Soviet Union there was a
anti Christian movement, very hard, very hard.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay, So I guess, like, what code And I'm not
saying this sarcastically, like what code? What book do you
think is best for humanity to live by? I say
the Bible?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
What would you say? No, it's an important, it's important
philosophical question.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I have a book called not the Bible.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
They're not loving your neighbor and not like you know,
there's a lot of good stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Okay, but again, let me tell you why, man.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
You're cherry picking.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
The story of the Bible is one of love and redemption.
There's a lot in the Bible.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
It is.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It's a story of love.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
The Old Testament.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Well, the entire arc of the Bible is a story
of love and a need for humans redemption.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, that's a charitable way of looking at it.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
And that's in there. There's a lot of things in
there because it's a giant anthology over centuries of many
different writers.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
There is a lot in the Bible.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
There is.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
It wasn't written by God, right.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
There's a book of the Bible. I think you'd love.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Song of Solomon, Song of Solomon, Chris Weasels and Nash.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Song of Solomon's all about sex.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I know it is, Yeah, quote it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I can't it's not it's not appropriate.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
No, no, it's there's true journey for a moodcast. It
literally is about how a husband and wife can grow
intimate to one another.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
And there's a.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Oh can you tell me that? Can you give me
the cheat cheet on that one?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh, it's I'm telling you the Bible has wisdom and
ways you might never imagine Bill. But No. What I'm saying, though,
is that human This is not a gotcha of sarcasm.
I mean this, like humanity will seek to find a book,
they'll seek to find a code to live by. Okay,
I think it's incumbent on atheists to tell us what
that should be.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
I agree with the first part of that. Humanity will
seek to find.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Seek to know. That's Aristotle's first.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Well, seek to find something that mollifies their feelings. That's
different than knowing. No, they don't really care about knowing.
They care about mollifying their feelings. I feel empty. What
will make me feel better? This book that purports to
have answers it couldn't possibly we have. But it does
(11:01):
make me feel better because now I don't have to
wonder about things that are very problematic to worry about,
like how did I get here?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
And what does it all mean?
Speaker 4 (11:09):
And why do you know kids get fucking cancer when
they're two?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
For No, I don't have an answer, right.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I know, I'm just saying, and now this book has
the answers to that question. Don't ask, don't ask A
and b. God works in mysterious ways, and that's the
end of it.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Go to your room.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I think it's a little deeper than that, but it is.
I mean it is deeper, of course, it's that, hey,
why are we here? Why were we created? But fair enough,
I do want to know, though, But like what.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I don't got it for you. I mean, we don't
have it and we don't claim.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But that's a big because though it's a it's a
because let me pause, Because the Bible was the document
as you acknowledged that our founders read and believed that
built this beautiful society that you and I both love.
And I think it's try to dangerous if we want
to a cut our roots without an alternative, because if
(12:05):
we cut our roots then we get all this other
counterfeit stuff of wocism and all this postmodernist garbage. So
our contention is, let's go back to where we came from.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
You know who Eugeno nail is?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
No Eugene O'Neil uh No.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Oh wow, kids, today a giant of American literature theater
A Long Day's Journey in tonight? Have you heard of
that play? Never heard of Long Day's journey in tonight.
You kids, what are they doing with you in school?
I never went to college. Bill, this is the problem. Okay. Anyway,
he once said, a life I find a life with
(12:48):
illusions unpardonable, and a life without illusions unbearable.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
When I started prodigy here in second grade, my mask
I rocketed.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Sometimes they start getting And that's the essence of where
we are. You choose the second, I choose the first.
I find a life with illusions unpardonable. I just can't
do it, okay, And you find a life without illusions unbearable.
And the fact that we can, I think, come to
(13:19):
this moment where we go, okay, that's you type a
I'm type and still be friends to me. This is
the future of where this country is.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Nothing you have said has offended me, and I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
And I appreciate that because again that was my question
in religions, how can otherwise really super smart people?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
But this is the answer, Like, and can I interrupt?
Do you doubt those of us that have had religious experiences?
Do you think it's just like neurological phenomenon? How would
you say that Jesus changed my life? Yeah, but it's
going to work with my soul.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Okay, but was he like getting did he come in
the car with you at the drive through? You know, like, okay,
it's what you said, a religious experience. I have to
ask how much that is.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
There was a moment where I realized that I'm not
all that I would ever want to be, that I
fall short of the glory of God's wish And when
was this?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
When I was in fifth grade? Actually fifth grade?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Really?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, you when I gave my life to the Lord.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
You were thinking about this shit in fifth grade?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I went to Christian school.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
So you don't see that as a doctrination.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Well, you know, I actually went to a private school previously,
but they didn't force it on us.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So their credit.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
No, but you said you were in a Christian school. Okay,
you're ten, You're in a Christian school. There's no connection
of like maybe at a very early age they put
a chip in your brain.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I mean, I still had to make the decision for
myself there and to the credit. And there's a lot
of kids that went to that school that aren't Christians anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And so by the way, I went to Catholic, I
was raised Catholic, I went it didn't stick. I had
the opposite reaction to c kissing, which was religious training
we would go to on Sunday morning where you would
learn how to be a good Catholic. And it just
really turned me off to these.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Was it too forceful, too legalistic?
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Like I mean, it was just a giant I mean
I was used to a room with twenty kids in
it at regular school, and then on Sunday there's like
sixty kids and they're from different schools and they're just like,
that's like and the nuns were like mean because you
got sixty kids that you don't really know, you have
to like and of course they're mean to begin with
to like get them in order, and they scared you,
(15:34):
and they yelled at you, and they hit you with
a ruler on the knuckles. I really I'm from that
era where they still like fucking hit you on.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
The Now, how often I hear the rulers from like,
like I mean, scorn Catholics. The ruler is like a
very common thing.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Again, the idea that you keep people in line, it's
by fear, that's why you're keeping people in line. And
that's a question and an atheist, really, I think is
due to ask a religious person, do you really think
fear is the best way for us to grow and
become good people? Because if that's how we're doing it,
(16:09):
I do have a problem with the methodology, even if
I believed in the religion.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I hear that from a lot of people that were
raised Catholic, and no I do.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I'm sorry, it's true.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
It's so true about the Catholics. I'm sorry. I know
you're right.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I mean to you know, did I do an extracism
or surressing me?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Addruss me?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
We have a whole highlight reeler of spit takes. It's
the it's the highlight of any show. If the guest
doesn't make the guest doesn't make me do a spit take,
we consider that it's a failure. But but you did,
so go on. But yes, Catholics, Yes, that's exactly who
you would hear that from.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
It's an under emphasis on grace and grace.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
What is grace? It's such a vague term.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So justice is getting what you deserve. Yeah, we believe
all humanity deserves damnation and judgment.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Tough, tough stuff. And it started in the garden stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Do you believe in the garden you believe in the
Old Testaments.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Oh yeah, No, I'm right to the I'm one of
those Christians.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Like six thousand years old thing. Not necessarily because in
religious I went to see.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The not necessary.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
We went to see the music. You know the museum
that they have it.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Oh yeah, ken Ham's deal.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Ken Ham, Yes, and we interviewed ken He was not appy.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
You got to you gott admit. The arc is pretty impressive.
You've seen the ark. They built a whole arc there.
We were there for a whole day.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
I don't know. I don't can't remember if it was
before after the.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Arc, No, no, it was. And Jesus impressive coming and
Jesus riding the dinosaur.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, I don't know about that.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Jesus riding the dinosaur. Do I really need to elaborate, Babel, Okay,
go ahead with your thing.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Judgment is getting what you deserve. Mercy is getting less
what you deserve.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Grace.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Mercy is getting less than what you do.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yes, so we believe Jesus gives us grace. So you
get a prison sentence, you get judgment, you get mercy,
you get less of a price and sentence. Grace would
be Jesus serving that prison sentence for you so you
could live life eternal.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Well, how is he serving that? Oh? You mean that
in the big picture?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Well, because we believe him living a perfect life and
then suffering the death that he did on the cross
was him atoning for our sins, the sins of humanity.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Jesus. Yeah, which is a big.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Claim, albeit and a very compelling one, which we also
believe one to be true because it redeems all of
humanity of falling of the glory of God.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I got to say, it's it's really picking up the
check for the whole table, you know. I mean, you
gotta you gotta give it, dear boy, for like all
of our solves, it's a very generous.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
But what it does very generous. It is at its
core a statement of human equality. That we're all sinners,
we're all screwed up, we all got problems, we all
got vices, and like no one, no matter what you do,
we all fall short of God's standard and Jesus makes
us whole.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
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(19:22):
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the phone to provide free counseling.
The Michael Barry Joe, is there any part of the
Bible you think it's true? Well, no, it's an important question.
So when they were documenting King David, like King David.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
A real thing, there are there are shards of it that.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Are I'm sure Jesus was a real person.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
Well that we don't know. That is not a definitive Okay,
so it really is not.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Like take Paul.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We both agree Paul was legit and a real person.
Paul was a Jew, persecuted Jews, and then had his
you know, wrote the Damascus Moment. Why would he do
that except for the fact that he's crazy or like delusional.
What incentive would Paul have to do that rich ruling
class gave up everything.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
You know you're saying to me, there is there never
a case of human delusion or mass delusion or people condition.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Why suicide cults. Of course, I acknowledge that.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
The capacity, the human capacity to believe what's not true,
to believe what you want to believe, is infinite. I mean,
you are literally the person I'm talking about at the
very beginning of the movie Religious because the very first scene,
I'm sitting in the car and I'm saying that the
movie is not a spiritual quest. I mean that's what
(01:14):
we told them, so they'd signed the release. The movie
is me saying, I don't know how it could be
that so many intelligent people can wall off a part
of their mind and believe in something that part of
their mind must know is not true. That's the question
I'm going for in religious and like, you're obviously a.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Super smart and respectfully, you go ahead try and again.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I don't want to insult you on that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
You said no, I mean, go to college campus, nothing right,
but you understand my question. Interestingly, ironically, I have the
same struggle. I don't know how somebody as intelligent as you,
and I'm not trying to offend you, you could not
believe in time out hold on. All of that takes faith,
I acknowledge, but that all of the fine tuning of
(02:00):
our universe if any of those fine tunings were off
A famous a famous sign of a famous scientist said
to believe that the universe and the Earth in its
current composition was an act of randomness, would believe that
a hurricane would go through a junkyard and assemble a
seven thirty seven flight ready Boeing he's wrong. Okay, that's fine,
(02:21):
But there are so many fine tuning aspects to our
existence that I think defy the idea that this is
all randomness and all chance.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Now you know that's not logical.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
You're saying, because I don't know the answer, I'm going
to assume the answer must be that a divine intervention
did it. That's not really a scientific way. They're looking
at the cosmo.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
So the cosmo, the teleological view, not the cosmological view,
is that all of these fine tunings, when layered up
one after the other, it defies I think reason to
think that this is just a roll of the dice.
That when you see a baby come into the world,
when you see how we naturally heal, when you even
consciousness itself, I think is a pretty miraculous thing to
(03:08):
think that's all just a bunch of but if happy accidents.
But I mean, I think it's more rational to think
that that's a byproduct of design.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
You're saying, some prime mover made it so, these made
it so, these things happen. I would say, if a
prime mover could do that, whytn't skip all the suffering?
And why don't you just get us to where we're
the perfect thing. Why you need things? I don't know,
but okay, the perfect being right away, we're somehow on
(03:39):
this journey to being you know, completely immortal and healthy,
I guess, and completely moral and don't fuck each other
up and don't have sex with children and all the
bad things.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
All the evil of our well, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
All the evil and the Holocaust and why go through
all that? If you are a prime over I assume
that means you can do anything and just get us
right to the end, and then we can just what
why just a bunch of us walking around being perfect?
I mean, why is that interesting to a god? You know?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
The whole thing just don't make sense?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
I get.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So that's that's a separate question, though, of whether or
not there is something behind our existence. I mean, so
we believe that the universe started with a big bang.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Yeah, but that's not the beginning of things. That's just
the beginning of what the known universe is. The big
question is what was before that?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And we believe it's a a god, right, that's always
that's a constant.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And look, I mean, you know the miss.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No more about atheism is that we say oh there's
no God. No, we just we just say we don't know.
As Richard Dawkins always says, there's theism, which is belief
in gods, and they used to believe in many and
then it got to one, and we just believe in
one less. So there's just just not.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
How you differentiate that from agnosticism.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
There isn't. Oh that's that's another thing. That's bullshit.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
No, I don't. I'm just question No.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think a lot of atheists think that a lot
of people on my team with this, they have that
view that, you know, don't split hairs with the atheists
and the agnostics. It's like it's we're on some part
of I don't know, and I really and I'll never know.
So I really don't think about it a lot. I
don't get up for church. I try to be a
good person because I just think intrinsically it's it's good
(05:29):
for society. It's good for me to be a good
person as much as I can, and I don't need
the threat of the pitchfork in the ass to do it.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I can. I ask a question, so, how how.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Watch baseball live like a super fan with gaind.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Av But you even acknowledge though, that some people act
better if they feel as if they'll be judged a
turmain totally. Okay, No, that's that's a bit. That's a
big admission. But how do you think society best determines
what is good?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
That's a great question. I mean, isn't that what government
is always wrestling with? What makes society good?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Do you think even as an atheist the Ten Commandments?
The right side of the Ten Commandments is a good
place to start, right well, because the left side, I
think you'd have a big problem.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Right, I have a.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Problem with with eight of the ten because only two
of them are laws.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You've got a problem with eight of the ten.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Two of them are laws? Only two?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
What do you mean? Don't kill and don't steal?
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Okay, and don't steal?
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Sure, Like I mean this idea that God is that.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
You're good with those two?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Like the first four are just jealous? God should It's
just like.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
You know what, honoring your parents is not jealous Gods.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
God's like a pimp who was in the next room
and he said, who are you on the phone with there?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Girl?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
You know, I mean, I guess I'm testing that one.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
But no, it's again, I'm not offendable on this, but
I think you could have. I know you've made fun
of it religious, but there's something beautiful about not working
for a day.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Oh Sabbath, Oh a week, it's even better. But well,
the Sabbath, no, I mean, the Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Is slowing down and saying that we're not toil for that.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
But do you need why would you need a religion
to get to that? Why would you need a religion
to Hey, let's not kill each other and.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Take a day off.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Like I again, I don't need a threat or a
garret for that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Just it's just so intrinsic.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
It's it sort of reminds me of the beginning of
the Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
If it's intrinsic, then why is it that a lot
of countries that don't have Christianity struggle to come to
these realizations that, for example, you know, communist China, we're
no Hitler analogies right under MAO, which was which was
resolutely atheist.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Right resolutely Yeah, I mean, well, no, I did a
monologue in religious I.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Might have Confucianism online.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
I did a monolog and religionous about that very subject,
which is the people will say, oh, Bell, these atheistic
societies like North Korea and no, those kind of societies,
they just replaced the leader of the country for a god.
They are not atheistic. When you look at what the
(08:20):
Korean the North Korean people believe about Kim Jong's.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It's a deification.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
It's a I mean completely the same shit that he
when he was born, winter turned to spring.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
He once he'll be a mortal in the heaven.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
First time he.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Played golf, he got eleven holes in one. He invented
the hamburger.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I'm not making that more improbable than a virgin birth.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It is, it really is. I'm not making this up.
But they believe that.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
So don't tell me North Korea is a theistic They're
not atheistic, but they there is a in China at least,
and of course in the Soviet Union there was a
anti Christian movement, very hard, very hard.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay, So I guess, like, what code And I'm not
saying this sarcastically, like what code? What book do you
think is best for humanity to live by? I say
the Bible?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
What would you say? No, it's an important, it's important
philosophical question.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I have a book called not the Bible.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
They're not loving your neighbor and not like you know,
there's a lot of good stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Okay, but again, let me tell you why, man.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
You're cherry picking.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
The story of the Bible is one of love and redemption.
There's a lot in the Bible.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
It is.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It's a story of love.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
The Old Testament.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Well, the entire arc of the Bible is a story
of love and a need for humans redemption.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, that's a charitable way of looking at it.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
And that's in there. There's a lot of things in
there because it's a giant anthology over centuries of many
different writers.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
There is a lot in the Bible.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
There is.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
It wasn't written by God, right.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
There's a book of the Bible. I think you'd love.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Song of Solomon, Song of Solomon, Chris Weasels and Nash.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Song of Solomon's all about sex.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I know it is, Yeah, quote it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I can't it's not it's not appropriate.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
No, no, it's there's true journey for a moodcast. It
literally is about how a husband and wife can grow
intimate to one another.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
And there's a.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Oh can you tell me that? Can you give me
the cheat cheet on that one?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh, it's I'm telling you the Bible has wisdom and
ways you might never imagine Bill. But No. What I'm saying, though,
is that human This is not a gotcha of sarcasm.
I mean this, like humanity will seek to find a book,
they'll seek to find a code to live by. Okay,
I think it's incumbent on atheists to tell us what
that should be.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
I agree with the first part of that. Humanity will
seek to find.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Seek to know. That's Aristotle's first.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Well, seek to find something that mollifies their feelings. That's
different than knowing. No, they don't really care about knowing.
They care about mollifying their feelings. I feel empty. What
will make me feel better? This book that purports to
have answers it couldn't possibly we have. But it does
(11:01):
make me feel better because now I don't have to
wonder about things that are very problematic to worry about,
like how did I get here?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
And what does it all mean?
Speaker 4 (11:09):
And why do you know kids get fucking cancer when
they're two?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
For No, I don't have an answer, right.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I know, I'm just saying, and now this book has
the answers to that question. Don't ask, don't ask A
and b. God works in mysterious ways, and that's the
end of it.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Go to your room.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I think it's a little deeper than that, but it is.
I mean it is deeper, of course, it's that, hey,
why are we here? Why were we created? But fair enough,
I do want to know, though, But like what.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I don't got it for you. I mean, we don't
have it and we don't claim.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But that's a big because though it's a it's a
because let me pause, Because the Bible was the document
as you acknowledged that our founders read and believed that
built this beautiful society that you and I both love.
And I think it's try to dangerous if we want
to a cut our roots without an alternative, because if
(12:05):
we cut our roots then we get all this other
counterfeit stuff of wocism and all this postmodernist garbage. So
our contention is, let's go back to where we came from.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
You know who Eugeno nail is?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
No Eugene O'Neil uh No.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Oh wow, kids, today a giant of American literature theater
A Long Day's Journey in tonight? Have you heard of
that play? Never heard of Long Day's journey in tonight.
You kids, what are they doing with you in school?
I never went to college. Bill, this is the problem. Okay. Anyway,
he once said, a life I find a life with
(12:48):
illusions unpardonable, and a life without illusions unbearable.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
When I started prodigy here in second grade, my mask
I rocketed.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Sometimes they start getting And that's the essence of where
we are. You choose the second, I choose the first.
I find a life with illusions unpardonable. I just can't
do it, okay, And you find a life without illusions unbearable.
And the fact that we can, I think, come to
(13:19):
this moment where we go, okay, that's you type a
I'm type and still be friends to me. This is
the future of where this country is.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Nothing you have said has offended me, and I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
And I appreciate that because again that was my question
in religions, how can otherwise really super smart people?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
But this is the answer, Like, and can I interrupt?
Do you doubt those of us that have had religious experiences?
Do you think it's just like neurological phenomenon? How would
you say that Jesus changed my life? Yeah, but it's
going to work with my soul.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Okay, but was he like getting did he come in
the car with you at the drive through? You know, like, okay,
it's what you said, a religious experience. I have to
ask how much that is.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
There was a moment where I realized that I'm not
all that I would ever want to be, that I
fall short of the glory of God's wish And when
was this?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
When I was in fifth grade? Actually fifth grade?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Really?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, you when I gave my life to the Lord.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
You were thinking about this shit in fifth grade?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I went to Christian school.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
So you don't see that as a doctrination.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Well, you know, I actually went to a private school previously,
but they didn't force it on us.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So their credit.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
No, but you said you were in a Christian school. Okay,
you're ten, You're in a Christian school. There's no connection
of like maybe at a very early age they put
a chip in your brain.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I mean, I still had to make the decision for
myself there and to the credit. And there's a lot
of kids that went to that school that aren't Christians anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And so by the way, I went to Catholic, I
was raised Catholic, I went it didn't stick. I had
the opposite reaction to c kissing, which was religious training
we would go to on Sunday morning where you would
learn how to be a good Catholic. And it just
really turned me off to these.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Was it too forceful, too legalistic?
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Like I mean, it was just a giant I mean
I was used to a room with twenty kids in
it at regular school, and then on Sunday there's like
sixty kids and they're from different schools and they're just like,
that's like and the nuns were like mean because you
got sixty kids that you don't really know, you have
to like and of course they're mean to begin with
to like get them in order, and they scared you,
(15:34):
and they yelled at you, and they hit you with
a ruler on the knuckles. I really I'm from that
era where they still like fucking hit you on.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
The Now, how often I hear the rulers from like,
like I mean, scorn Catholics. The ruler is like a
very common thing.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Again, the idea that you keep people in line, it's
by fear, that's why you're keeping people in line. And
that's a question and an atheist, really, I think is
due to ask a religious person, do you really think
fear is the best way for us to grow and
become good people? Because if that's how we're doing it,
(16:09):
I do have a problem with the methodology, even if
I believed in the religion.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I hear that from a lot of people that were
raised Catholic, and no I do.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I'm sorry, it's true.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
It's so true about the Catholics. I'm sorry. I know
you're right.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I mean to you know, did I do an extracism
or surressing me?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Addruss me?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
We have a whole highlight reeler of spit takes. It's
the it's the highlight of any show. If the guest
doesn't make the guest doesn't make me do a spit take,
we consider that it's a failure. But but you did,
so go on. But yes, Catholics, Yes, that's exactly who
you would hear that from.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
It's an under emphasis on grace and grace.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
What is grace? It's such a vague term.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So justice is getting what you deserve. Yeah, we believe
all humanity deserves damnation and judgment.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Tough, tough stuff. And it started in the garden stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Do you believe in the garden you believe in the
Old Testaments.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Oh yeah, No, I'm right to the I'm one of
those Christians.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Like six thousand years old thing. Not necessarily because in
religious I went to see.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The not necessary.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
We went to see the music. You know the museum
that they have it.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Oh yeah, ken Ham's deal.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Ken Ham, Yes, and we interviewed ken He was not appy.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
You got to you gott admit. The arc is pretty impressive.
You've seen the ark. They built a whole arc there.
We were there for a whole day.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
I don't know. I don't can't remember if it was
before after the.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Arc, No, no, it was. And Jesus impressive coming and
Jesus riding the dinosaur.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, I don't know about that.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Jesus riding the dinosaur. Do I really need to elaborate, Babel, Okay,
go ahead with your thing.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Judgment is getting what you deserve. Mercy is getting less
what you deserve.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Grace.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Mercy is getting less than what you do.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yes, so we believe Jesus gives us grace. So you
get a prison sentence, you get judgment, you get mercy,
you get less of a price and sentence. Grace would
be Jesus serving that prison sentence for you so you
could live life eternal.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Well, how is he serving that? Oh? You mean that
in the big picture?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Well, because we believe him living a perfect life and
then suffering the death that he did on the cross
was him atoning for our sins, the sins of humanity.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Jesus. Yeah, which is a big.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Claim, albeit and a very compelling one, which we also
believe one to be true because it redeems all of
humanity of falling of the glory of God.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I got to say, it's it's really picking up the
check for the whole table, you know. I mean, you
gotta you gotta give it, dear boy, for like all
of our solves, it's a very generous.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
But what it does very generous. It is at its
core a statement of human equality. That we're all sinners,
we're all screwed up, we all got problems, we all
got vices, and like no one, no matter what you do,
we all fall short of God's standard and Jesus makes
us whole.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
If your life Michael Berry shall podcast, please tell one friend,
and if you're so inclined, write a nice review of
our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest in being a
corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated directly to the
show at our email address, Michael at Michael Berryshow dot com,
(19:22):
or simply by clicking on our website Michael Berryshow dot com.
The Michael Berry Show and Podcast is produced by Ramon Roeblis,
The King of Ding. Executive producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim
Mudd is the creative director. Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery and Shenanigans
(19:47):
are provided by Chance McLain. Director of Research is Sandy Peterson.
Emily Bull is our assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are
a preiated and often incorporated into our production. Where possible,
we give credit, Where not, we take all the credit
for ourselves. God bless the memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long
(20:13):
live Elvis, be a simple man like Leonard Skinnard told you,
and God bless America. Finally, if you know a veteran
suffering from PTSD, call Camp Hope at eight seven seven
seven one seven PTSD and a combat veteran will answer
(20:34):
the phone to provide free counseling.
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