December 4, 2025 • 44 mins
Dan is joined by former U.S. Attorney Andy Luger in-studio again for another hour of covering the current events in Minnesota (including all the fraud cases) as well as some Vikings discussion!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, all right, we are indeed back in studio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Outstanding guest Andy Luger kind enough to stop by once again,
and as I mentioned, if you have questions, we might
be able to squeeze some of those in several have
actually already come in.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
The the Bradshawn Brian Cavan text line at six four
six eight six, welcome back to the program.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Good to have you back. Yeah, I know you.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Do you I can't remember we talked about this before.
Do you embrace this kind of cold? I mean, you're you're, you're,
you're Northeast guy, right, yeah, originally so is it? Or
do you does this kind of cold get obnoxious to.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
You every time? Every time? Are there people that embrace this? Well?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Probably not as much as they pretend, I'm guessing yeah,
but there's some people bothered by it, more bothered enough
if they say they could leave, because you could leave,
you go other places. I mean, you're, you're, you know,
established enough, you could end up being a big shot
attorney anywhere pretty much at this point.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Because yeah, that's a nice thought. I love living here.
That's clear weather. It's stupid, but I love living here,
and I've lived here for a long time, and I'm
not going anywhere. I've got a cold sin. So I
sound a little off, but I'm not going anywhere. But
I don't know how you embrace this. I think people
lie to themselves. Okay, I embrace the state. I embrace
(01:41):
what yeh do here? I love it here. I hate this.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Okay, that's honest. See, I think that's honest.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I try to be You're not one of us, though,
because you weren't born here, no as I neither of mine.
I've been told that over and over. I'm approaching forty
years here, and that's still not long enough. I was told, yeah,
including by the lake great sed Hartman a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Ago, whenever I would never be one of us.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Good for him, and he you know I knew him
a little.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Bit, I bet you did.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
He was very good friends with my wife's grandfather. Really yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
My wife's grandfather was a football player at the you
Lou Gross, Big Lou Gros, Okay, and they were very
very close all the way till the end.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Really yeah. Yeah, So I got to know Seid a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, through Grandpa Lou didn't exactly welcome me to town
when I anybody else who's a writer or a columnist
is the enemy, even though if you work for the
same newspaper it's supposed to be. If they work for
another newspaper, that's just the nature sid very competitive. Speaking
of competitive, your vikings haven't been very nutley. But you
(02:46):
have a message I think that you would like to convey,
and we'll get to the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So don't worry.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I know a lot of people want to get to
the other stuff. We will, but a message that an
urgent one that you think is important to convey surrounding
the proper approach with JJ McCarthy.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Yes, so this season's over. That's not rocket science. But
the rest of the season to me is the pre
preseason for next year. Maybe you guys parties, I haven't
been listening as much as I probably should.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Okay, well, I have a job. Yeah you're kind of busy.
I understand, but.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
This is the beginning of the pre preseason and what
we need to do seems to me, we meaning all
of us who care about the team, is just figure
out where we can go with this guy, and to
me that means throw the ball. And I know you're
big on running the ball, and in the past I
agreed with you. You should have been doing that more,
(03:46):
you know. But at this point you're saying fourth and
one with the other guy, and we get the Garrol
you premeny in pass so that but this time throw
it and his guards. He is really a Brosmar guy.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
He is the original Brosemer Brownstone.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
The other guy.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I mean, SAME's Max Brosmer, mister Luger because.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
It's not your PREMI.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
The other guy.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
All right, so nobody knows what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
We've we've invoked a dated reference once or twice before.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Okay, because that's right when you're watching the game, that's
what you thought about.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I did.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
I kind of look it up.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
So your point is, throw the ball, find out can
he get it to Jefferson?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, and he's got these great receivers. What can he do?
Throw simple patterns, whatever it is. Don't worry so much
about are we going to win or lose. I don't
believe in throwing the rest of the season to get
a draft pick. But let's just test him out in
different situations. And again nobody asked my advice. This is
you know, Koc doesn't call me and Luga what do
(04:50):
you think?
Speaker 4 (04:50):
But this has been on my mind, let's get him
back there throwing the ball, testing out different patterns and
see what we can do. I think that would also
be good for Jefferson. Let's try to get the ball
to Jefferson. We have the best receiver in the league.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
It's now become ridiculous that we don't even throw to him.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, so that's right, that's my view. No, I think
that's very insightful. I don't disagree with it. I still
think you don't want to run the risk of traumatizing
the kid if he's throwing at sixty two times and
getting sacked eight times, because I also don't think he's
a person who's going to stay healthy all that easy.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
But I get what your point is.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And the one liberating aspect of being four and eight
is the pressure to that extent is off, right, It
really is. I mean, you're not even though they did
not intend to be in this position, that's a position
they're in. So go about your business, just trying to
have little victories within games.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
That's what you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
That's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yeah, And I also I'm looking to see because I
still believe in him.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And I may be in the minority on this, So
I don't know where you're at.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I'm still willing to watch. I'm still I'm not given
up on him.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
No, I am not.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So I'm a little bit beyond willing to watch. Well,
I'm a little worried what.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Some of the analytics indicate. But yeah, it's still really
his first yeah, whatever, seventy games played, whatever it is.
I just think you got to test it out, you know.
I don't want him to get hurt. I don't all
that stuff, but let's find out before the preseason, before
the next season. We waited so long for this season,
I did, at least with anxious anticipation, and now it's gone.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
So that's my view.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Do you have any Are you a Vikings fan who
suffers from any Sam Donald envy, any Daniel Jones envy,
any Aaron Rodgers envy? No?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I despise those thoughts because, wait, Dan, let's go back
to the end of last season. How many people were
clamoring to re sign Sam Donald after the playoff tobacle. Yeah, yeah,
the last two games were in debacle. Every but he
sort of said, that's the real Sam Donald. I got
nothing against Sam Donald, and I hope he does great.
(07:05):
I just think that we're reinventing history. There were I
did not hear anybody say that's our franchise quarterback, so
to reinvent it and say look how great he's doing
this season. And by the way, you know, I don't
think he's a super Bowl quarterback. He's better than what
we've got. But you invest in the future. You pick
(07:26):
your future, you stick with it, you do the best
you can. At some point, if it's not working, you
give up and move on. But I'm not there.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
How old were you on December fourth, nineteen seventy seven?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
All right, so I was born in fifty nine.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay, so do you have much Were you a Vikings
fan then?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
No, I was so.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I was living in so by December of seventy seven,
I was already in college. I was an Amherst College
football fan. We were undefeated as a freshman team. Just
in case anybody was checking, I was a Giants fan.
There wasn't much of that back then, but I kind
of enjoy I think I told you this story how
(08:07):
I met Alan Page when I moved here.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yep, I enjoyed the Vikings.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I'm not one of those people who thinks there's some
scar or scarlet letter for having lost for super Bowls.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
My teams didn't get to the Super Bowl. So have
I always admired the Vikings and.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Place you played outside to his freezing cold, like we've
talked about.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I thought that was great.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I bring up the date because I'm reminded by a
good friend of the program from the Flynn family, Dan Flynn.
December fourth, nineteen seventy seven, what was then the greatest
comeback or largest comeback in National Football League history. The
Vikings erased a twenty four to nothing third quarter deficit
and beat the Niners at the met twenty eight, twenty seven.
(08:48):
Rookie quarterback Tommy Kramer enters early in the fourth and
throws three touchdown passes, including the sixty nine yard game
winner to Sammy White with one minute, thirty eight seconds
to go. So you probably don't have much recollection of that.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I don't remember Tommy Kramer being the guy who would
throw that many touchdown passes. Nothing against Tommy, be careful
because he listens. Yeah you might hear from him. I've
met him. A nice guy. I just don't remember him
being the guy who would throw you.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Know, yeah, he had his moments. For sure, I.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Believe in JJ. I'm putting that on there.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
No, that's that's it's it's you're try to be consistent.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
You're saying that's the guy.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
And I also believe in chaos. Until you turn on him,
I'm not going to turn on He won't turn on
if he if he really can't do it, you call
the question. Yeah, but I believe in him.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
All right, let me ask you this way, all right,
do you have to how much more do you have
to see the rest of this season to say, yes,
we're starting training camp with him and him alone again,
designated as a guy, no competition, it's him. Because that's
(09:56):
the question moving forward that affects a lot of people,
including Justin Jefferson and this whole operation based on how
old this team is that you do you just give
him the job again or do you bring in a
veteran that at least has a chance.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
What how much do you have to How much does
Andy Luger have to see the rest of the season.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
I got to see some improvement and I've got to
see progression. Uh, and then I kind of want to
hear what Jefferson says. I want to hear what the
guys on the field say, because they're going to see it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, they're all saying wonderful things. But they've said that
from the beginning. But but we're going to know what
Jefferson really thinks at the end. He's you know, he's
in the prime of his career.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
If he sees it.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
If there was Chris Carter and then Randy Moss here,
we already know, we know for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Yeah, that's it. They're gone too, So he is unusual
in that right. The other thing I want them to
do is stop fumbling.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, we have a takeaway turnover ratio problem we do
where I think we're either last or second to last
in the league.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
On uh turner, somebody gains ten yards on the ground
and I'm yelling, go down and hold onto.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
The that's a problem too. All right, let's do this.
Let's get our first break in.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
We're chatting with former US attorney Andy Lueger, and yeah,
we decided to start with the football talk because I
know it was in him and he wanted to get
it out. So we'll do that. Or we have done that,
and now we're going to get into some other issues.
His reaction to a couple of pretty timely stories. Some
of those stories he has been very closely connected to
over the last several years. So we'll do that as
(11:29):
we have Andy until the top of the hour Russo Radio.
You ever at a hockey guy, You ever got a puckhead?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Not once? Really don't.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I can't stay to hockey, I know, and that's a problem.
I can't skate.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I tried.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
I literally can't skate. So watching people fly around un.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Skate, is it an impressive to you?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I just it like sends Okay, it's just me anxious because.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I can't do it as you can't do it.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I can go out on a football field and knock somebody.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Down, get knocked it down, which you've done for ten years.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I can hit a baseball, I can hit a back,
I can shoot a free throw.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I can't do that, so it's not relatable.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I can't relate to it, and it makes me anxious.
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
The sports the toy Department section of our conversation with Andy,
I think is pretty close to DOUN will come back
and talk other matters next.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Sunday's matchup with Washington is almost here. You can find
our street team on the Plaza outside US Banks Stadium ASCAW.
You can win Papa Murphy's game day meal deals for
an entire year. More INFODKFA dot com. The keyword is calendar.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Well, you're getting ripped, Andy Lueger by Gary the Mailman
who rights from Albert Lee for the record. Gary the
Mailman loves this weather. So he's saying he really does
embrace it.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
You know what it does, God bless him. I want
to be clear.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
If people love this weather, great, Okay, people love hockey,
it sounds like it's.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Almost resentful of them for loving.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
No.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Not okay, you're just saying you can't love it, and
you're not going to pretend.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
The first time I saw what is it? Ice fishing
huts on the lake? Was it the Midgie? It was
at I al must sell over, But God bless I'm
a libertarian at heart.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Would you load? You do what you want to do?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, Okay, that's fair enough, whether it's.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Hockey or ice fishing or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Okay, So where should we begin.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
We had Kessler in here yesterday and a lot of
what we talked about was a story that was breaking
yesterday afternoon. Actually, we seem to have indication that ICES
is going to come in here pretty aggressively, pretty soon.
Maybe I've missed something. They're already here today attempting to
target the Somali population. And then there was a headline
(13:47):
indicating that the police chief of the City of Minneapolis said,
our advice is call nine to one one if you
find yourself in any kind of I guess confrontation with ICE,
which struck me as the recipe for some potentially really
dangerous situations here.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
What do you make of this? So two things. One,
I'm worried we don't need a repeat of what happened
in June twenty twenty. This city really doesn't deserve to
go through what we went through before. We're coming together
in so many ways, we're finding our way forward after
(14:28):
the horrific events of the pandemic and the murder of
George Floyd. That's number one. But number two is we're
getting off target.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
The conversation we should be having, and the conversation we
were starting to have, is one, how does Somali community
leaders deal.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
With this level of fraud?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Not because we're blaming the entire community, because nobody should,
and I'm never going to do that, but leaders need
to embrace the problem, talk about it, have conversations with
law enforcement. There needs to be some response to this,
and that's number one. Number two is talking about the
solutions to what happened. And you know, we're going to
(15:11):
enter into a campaign season there are going to be
all these recriminations about what happened. We should be having
a sober but aggressive conversation about how to fix it.
And once these guys who I don't know, published their
story about al Shabab money, you know that the money
went to al Shabab, which I'll talk about, we completely
(15:33):
went off track. And just as a career person working
in law enforcement as a prosecutor, the left and the
right both do this. You know, law enforcement and prosecutors
do a great job identifying a problem, prosecuting, investigating, exposing
a problem, and then people take it and run with
it politically, and we lose the thread.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And that's what I the moment I.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Saw that story, and now we've got to investigate whether
the he went to al Shabab.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
That's that's almost entirely nonsense.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
We investigated the money, and unless something's happened in the
months that I've been gone, we know where the money
went and got this fraud money. These were these were
guys committing fraud. They want to get rich, they agreed, Yeah,
they want to buy houses. You know, they were living
in a cramped department.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Pay one.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
They've got a Lexus and a Mercedes Benz and a
two million dollar house the next day.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
That's what it is.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
But all of a sudden, somebody alleges without any evidence,
that it was going to fund terrorism. That sets us
off track. Then it becomes about the Somali community supporting terrorism.
We're gone, We're off down a side road. And that's
and the left does this too, and I hate it.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Here's what's interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I looked up. I found this via men Post. This
is from twenty sixteen. Okay, here's your headline witness for
the prosecution, US Attorney Andy Andrew Luger on isl verdict,
the Somali community and the media. And it did trip
and me remind me that you actually do have some
experience when it comes to prosecuting in cases in which
(17:10):
what you were able to prove in court was that
there was a terror terrorist connection.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Correct, yeah, different case, but you do have some history
with this.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I bring it up again to make the point that
you're not afraid to talk about it when you feel
the evidence suggests that's the store.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
We have the biggest Isis conspiracy case in the country
right here, and I ran that investigation. Great prosecutors, great
FBI agents. Nobody was afraid of anything. We dove into that.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
We addressed it, we prosecuted it.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
I met with Somali community leaders repeatedly to talk about
solutions that's not this, and it's sort of just frustrating,
and maybe you know, I wanted to talk about this.
It's frustrating when left right activists, politicians, whatever they are,
hate something that people are working on and doing a
(18:03):
great job with it and go off on a tangent
and everybody follows that tangent. And I've had it on
both sides.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So I want to read a couple comments from this
is from a a I think a right leaning publication
called City Journal.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, that's the one.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
And by the way, for the record, I want to
check these numbers with you because I think these are
up to date. Indictments in the Feeding Our Future case
have now been brought against seventy eight defendants. The newest
of the seventy eight cases was charged on November twenty fourth.
The seventy eight indictments have resulted in seven guilty verdicts,
to acquittals, fifty guilty please, and five fugitives, with one
(18:40):
deceased defendant thirteen unresolved cases await trial. Does that sound about.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Right to you? Pretty accurate?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It does?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
For the record, Now here's what he writes.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Records show that the defendants sent millions of dollars to
Kenya and China. They also send money to Somalia, mostly
in cash. Al Shabab controls large portions of Somalia and
collects a mafia style street text on all financial transactions
in areas under its control. And in this way, some
of the Feeding Our Future and other fraud proceeds likely
(19:12):
ended up in the hands of al Shabab, which he
says would be outrageous. However, he adds this, there is
no evidence that the perpetrators in these cases intentionally directed
money to Al Shabab or any other terrorist organization. That
evidants were not looking to fund terrorism, but to enrich
themselves and fund their lifestyles.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Does that sound right? Is that the Scott Johnson wrote this?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Scott so Scott, Scott writes for Paroline. Okay, I know
Scott well. He covered this very closely, and Scott is
pushing back on that original story. He's a great guy,
very smart, very conservative. But I respect him and disagree
with him, but I respect him. Scott knows that these
(19:56):
guys weren't terrorists. And so the original story in the
City Journal.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
City Journal exactly, Yes, that.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Apparently sort of got this wave going. Now we're investigating
this and new calls for investigations, etc. And there are
number of problems with it. And it's the same problem
that I saw on the left when I was US attorney,
and I would get you need to investigate X. People
think they know something or they suspect something, they call
for investigations, and they never say who's going to do
(20:26):
the investigation so and they never say when those people
are doing your new investigation into something for which there's
no evidence, what are the cases they're not working on.
Who are the really bad guys that we know about
who are not getting prosecuted Because we're going down a
rabbit hole.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And that's what's happening here.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So in fact, what you're coming back to again is
keep your eye on the ball. There's enough there to
go after. But you cheapen those cases if you pretend
this is one of those cases, right, and.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
It has a moralizing effect on the people who are
working on the cases.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I know that not right from past experience. All Right,
I'm looking at the headline here. I want to get
your reaction to. In fact, we had a couple of
Texters who wanted to get into this as well. A
judge in Minnesota is facing heat after she overturned a
guilty verdict for an individual convicted in a seven point
two million dollar fraud scheme that involved taxpayer money. Abdi
(21:26):
Fatah Yusef and his wife were charged in June twenty
twenty four after they were accused of sealing seven point
two million from the state's medicaid program of running a
home health care business that lacked an office building and
operated for years out of a mailbox, according to the
Minnesota Attorney General's office. Now, there's obviously been a lot
of pushback to the judge in this case, basically, as
(21:49):
I understand it, vacating saying that there was too much
that the judge was troubled by the manner in which
the fraud was able to be perpetuated, but the case
relied heavily on circumstantial evidence, adding that the state didn't
rule out other potential reasonable inferences.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
What do you know about this case?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Not much more than that.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
So I can't criticize the ruling, but I can comment
as follows. I've been a prosecutor on and off since
nineteen eighty nine and a defense lawyer in between. I
only know of two other cases where judges overturned a
jury verdict. Both of those cases were reversed on appeal
(22:33):
because it's not for the judge in general to decide
inferences and circumstantial evidence that you instruct a jury with
the fact that circumstantial evidence is the same has the same.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Weight as direct evidence.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
So I've had plenty of circumstantial evidence cases. I had
a mafia case back in Brooklyn, little mafia case back
in Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
That was all the contradition in terms little mafia cases.
Guy was a wasn't you know they have they have
left level of wise guys. He was not high that
high on the pecking order.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Is barely a wise guy. He was more like a
wise kid, and he wasn't all that wise. But it
was all circumstantial evidence because I couldn't get anybody to testify,
and so it was all based on circumstantial evidence. That's
not that unusual, and you don't have to disprove other inferences.
You've got a show beyond a reasonable doubt that this
person did it based on the evidence, and a.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Jury thought that. So I I find it troubling, But
I don't know the specifics of the case, don't know
the judge.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
And I haven't read the opinion. Yeah, because this wasn't
one of your cases.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, No, and you know, it's like, so that's my
It's very very very rare and should be very rare.
I really believe in jury's I I'm one of those
people who think that juries get it right most of
the time. And I've seen it, even in cases I've lost.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I've heard almost those exact same words from the late
great Rond Rosenbaum. He used to tell me that over
and over again as well. He very much believes in juries,
not that they're perfect, but that he does tend to
believe in them.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yep, and Ron lost his sheriff cases too.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
The New York Times story, which covered a lot of
ground that really has been reported locally and regionally, but
kind of put it in a big box. And it's
the New York Times, so obviously it's going to get
a significant amount of attention. In fact, let me say,
I can find the headline how fraud swamped Minnesota's social
(24:32):
services system on Tim Walls's watch. Now, a couple of
things I want to get your reaction to with.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Then the piece.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Some of this I think you and I have discussed before,
but I want to get back to it. There's a
quote one of the individuals quoted in this piece, his
name Cassey Megan or Morgan. I hope I'm not mangling
that name, described as a Somali American who formerly worked
as a fraud investigator for the Minnesota Attorney General's office.
(25:00):
And this individual said elected officials in the state were
reluctant to take more assertive action and response to allegations
of the Somali community. The suggestion here here's what he said.
There is a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might
cause political backlash among the Somali community, which is a
core voting block for Democrats, said mister Morgan, who was
(25:22):
among the few prominent figures in the Somali community to
speak out about the fraud. Do you believe that is
part of this story that should be continued to be explored.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Well, everything should be explored. I don't, but i'll tell
you why. What I think it's a variant of that.
But what I have seen is a fear of being
labeled a racist.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Which we have discussed before. I'm going there next, but
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
That's more of what I've seen, because I did see
people speaking out about this. There was a lawsuit filed.
The people who ran Feeding our Future were very aggressive
going after anybody who challenged them and getting support for
their cause. Not because we're going to lobby Democrats and
(26:13):
they're going to, you know, go with us, but accusing
people of being racist if they challenge what Feeding our
Future was doing and others. I called that out when
I was still US attorney. Did you called it out
with us last time?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
You're on?
Speaker 4 (26:27):
And I think those days are over because I think
people see it for what it is and I think
it's going to be very hard to do that. Ever, again,
that doesn't mean you go after the whole Somali community.
Doesn't mean you know everybody who's involved involved in fraud.
It just means don't come to me saying I'm a
racist if I'm asking questions about your business.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
To your point, those days are over.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
In the Times piece, in an email, the group Feeding
Our Future told the state agency, this is a Minisota
Department of Education officials that failing to promptly approve new
applicants from quote minority owned businesses unquote would result in
a lawsuit featuring accusations of racism that would be quote
sprawled across the news.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
And that's what they did, and they did that lawsuit
and every people rightly.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
I mean, maybe we talked about this.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
You're a mid level manager at one of these departments
overseeing this stuff, and how do you feel about sitting
in a deposition being accused of racism?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Not good?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Not good?
Speaker 4 (27:29):
And is that worth it to you? Does that have
a chilling effect on you? I think it done.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
We need to have more fearless officials in that regard
to right because that did absolutely contribute to this situation.
And I don't think enough people you have. But I
don't know, I don't think enough people have owned up
to that. That's part of the problem. I think where
people get cynical about how is it ever really going
to change if there's not an admission or two from
(27:57):
other people to say, yeah, that that is part of
what contributed to how long this went on before the
alarm bells went off.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Well, I think we're I think we're over it. And
maybe I'm naive, but I saw it. I called it out.
They tried the same thing. If people remember when they
when they went and bribed a juror, Yes, that's true,
you're right, part of the instructions. And I went on
about this at length when we when we indicted the
people who were part of that conspiracy, they wrote instructions
(28:27):
for the juror, and three separate times in the one
page of instructions were these people are all racist. This
is a racist investigation. It's a racist prosecution. That was
the mindset we get away with saying that. And I
stood up at the press conference when we indicted these
guys and said, these days are over.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Stop it.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Nobody should fall for this nonsense ever again and call
it out. And I think, I really do think it
ain't gonna work going forward, whoever is governor, whoever's in
these agencies.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Another individual who quoted in this piece, I want to
get your reaction to a couple of things, he said.
Ahmed Samatara, professor at McAllister, described in this piece as
a leading expert in Somali's studies, set a reckoning over
the fraud and its consequences for Minnesota was overdue.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
American society and the denizens of the state of Minsisota
have been extremely good to Somali's said doctor Somitar, who
is Somali American. Doctor Solitar said that Somali refugees who
came to the United States after their country civil war
were raised in a culture in which stealing from the
country's dysfunctional and corrupt government was widespread. Minnesota, he said,
proved susceptible to a rampant fraud because it is quote
(29:38):
so tolerant, so open, and so geared toward keeping an
eye on the week. Now there's a lot there too,
because you have been one of the few people you're
very precise to make sure you do not blame an
entire community. But the last time you were on you
(29:58):
got specific about whether there was something within one element
of the culture that contributes to this sort of the
remarkable number of individuals who have been prosecuted in this case.
And that to me is what the professor seems to
be saying. And I'll say again, I don't think enough people.
There's too many people afraid that if they even go
(30:18):
that far. Oh broad brush, you're trump on this. You
want to just everybody who has any sort of Somali
in their blood, you want them out of here.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I think that's what we're losing right now. With all
of the.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Ice stuff and the al Shabab stuff, We've lost the focus.
So they're estimate between sixteen and eighty thousand people of
Somali descent in Minnesota. I interact with people of Somali
descent at the doctor's office, you name it. None of
them are involved in fraud. None of them have anything
to do with any of this stuff. There is an
(30:52):
element within this community, and there are in other ethnic communities.
I prosecuted cases on the East Coast, all within one,
you know, ethnic community who are engaged in this. And
they sought each other out, They went to their friends,
their neighbors, and they said, let's do this.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
We're all going to get rich. And they did.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
But that doesn't have anything to do with the you
know if it's two hundred people, then you've got whatever
seventy nine two hundred people who are not So go
to the leaders in the community, as we did with
the ISIS stuff.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Have conversations, not accusations, conversations about where is this coming from,
why are people doing this, call it out, stamp it down,
say we will not tolerate this. And I think that
was about to happen. I think all that went underground.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Now we are chatting with former US Attorney Andy Lueger.
Let's do this.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Let's get one more break in. I got a lot
more ground to cover. We're going to try to cover
as much as we can. Some good texts are coming
in as well, and there's definitely a couple of developments
in this story, or I guess stories that are kind
of connected to this story, that I want want to
get Andy's reaction to.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
So I'll still have time to do that.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
We will talk about Andy's favorite sport, hockey at the
top of the five o'clock hour with Michael Russo.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Russo Radio starts.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Then we are back with former US Attorney Andy Lueger
Russo Radio Top of the hour. This question, well, that's
not a question it's an observation from the text line
(32:31):
speaks for a few other people, and it's hard to
know how you might want to respond to it, or
either of us might want to respond to it, because
it's so general. But here's he's listing, and here's what
he writes. You are all afraid to speak the truth.
And I wish six or five to one. I think
he knows what he thinks the truth is, but he
needs to articulate what he believes that truth is and
(32:53):
what we are afraid of, what you are afraid of
in terms of you're pretty concent distant criticism of the
level of fraud, certainly starting with feeding our future, with
some other cases as well that's taking place, so and
getting specific about even within one aspect of the Somali
(33:14):
culture getting into this calling out the folks who basically
were called off of this stuff were afraid because they
thought they were going to be called racist. So I
don't know what is there is there something you're you're
holding back from us that you want to now confess.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I'm not known for holding back.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
I didn't think so, and I'm not known for being
afraid to tell the truth. But I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Because that shows a side of me that I you know,
I'll incorporate. I don't know. Well, if he's.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Got a specific tell me and then we'll pass it along.
I'm happy to you a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I know you loathe you. Try to be an equal opportunity.
I think ripper about politics because you think that's the future.
And part of the reason we're in the position we're
in is we've got people who refuse to call out
quote unquote their side because it can sustance to the
enemy and it's it's a road we've discussed on this
(34:04):
show many times with and without you, But I have
to try this on you, and you tell me where
you disagree. The governor was on Meet the Press. I
think this is this past Sunday, asked by the host
if he takes responsibility for widespread fraud discovered in some
Minnesota social service programs. Here was the Wall's answer, I
(34:26):
take responsibility for putting people in jail. Now, I gotta
tell you, Andy, that's pretty rich to me, okay, because
I we can argue about how much responsibility a governor
has in some of these cases if we want, but
it takes some gall to say I am.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
One thing I am going to take credit for is
we're putting him away. He didn't put him away.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Your office, through a couple of administrations, put him away.
So isn't that shouldn't that be a little bit of
troubling even to you as a Democrat.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
So here's for six' five one.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
GUY i don't want to be in the middle of
this political fight because WHATEVER i say gets blown up
and used in all sorts of WAYS i can't. CONTROL
i want to let the people who are engaged in
this fight have the, fight, okay and criticize each other
and call each other out and do.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
THAT i prosecuted this.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
CASE i lived this case with an amazing team of
people at THE, fbi THE, irs The postal inspectors in my,
office all of whom are heroes to.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
ME i don't want to be in the middle of
the politics on. THIS i just. Don't it's not Because i'm,
Afraid it's BECAUSE i don't want to do.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
It, okay Then i'll, SAY i just think it was
an extremely bad look AND i don't know what, again
what the line, is BUT i don't think he's found,
it AND i do think he's vulnerable and he should
be in my. Opinion, now let me ask you ABOUT
i have some of the details on this case AND i,
don't BUT i don't know THAT i have all of.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Them but it's coming up.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Again minnesota judge told the State's department Of education that
had a real problem after the agency suspended payments to
an organization before federal prosecutors uncovered a fraud scheme that
has now resulted in charges for seventy eight individuals in
twenty twenty. Two this is according to A newsweek's, story
but there are other. Accounts wall said a judge ordered
(36:17):
the state to continue making payments defeeding Our. Future, NOW
i THOUGHT i saw in, fact here's the statement in
twenty twenty twenty, two feed in Our future demanded THAT
mda make, payments and the court made it clear that
IF md were to continue the legal fight to withhold those,
PAYMENTS md would incur sanctions in legal. PENALTIES i thought
this WEEK i saw a response from that court's office
(36:41):
saying that is factually.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Incorrect can you give us shed some light on?
Speaker 4 (36:46):
This, yeah And i'll go back to when it, happened
SO i know the judge a good judge In Ramsey.
County what he, said if you read the, opinion is
you haven't presented evidence of, fraud presented evidence of sort
of paperwork, problems And i'm not going to stop allow
you to stop payment on that. Basis so it wasn't
(37:08):
as though he SAID i don't see any, FRAUD i
don't care about.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Fraud make the.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Payments my recollection of his opinion and what he said
in court was without you presenting evidence of, fraud this
other stuff that you're claiming that they're not getting their
paperwork in on. Time and THEN md, said, well, we'll,
we'll we'll work with feeding our future to improve the.
Process so this wasn't about. Fraud that's my. Recollection he's
(37:34):
a good. Judge it was a good. JUDGE i think
people went after him, incorrectly AND i think people realize
that after the.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Fact, well but.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Does that then give a little bit OF.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
I guess you say interference in their favor to the administration, saying,
look we when we tried to put up a couple
of red, flags a judge left us with no.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
CHOICE i don't think it's that.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
SIMPLE i think what really happened here is the racism
angle came up and people reacted to, that who were.
Litigating that's my take on. It it was who wants
to be labeled a? Racism, OKAY i go back to
that BECAUSE i think that played a big role. Here
not you, know we want votes from people.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Or whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Under the classification of is this throwing out the baby
with the? Bathwater here's the. Headline this is from a
couple of days. Ago using anti fraud, Powers MINNESOTA dhs
sets two year ban on new group home. Licenses they've
ordered a two year. Ban these are programs designed to
(38:42):
help people with disabilities live in their. Communities the department
will stop issuing new home and community based services, licenses
stop accepting any new license, applications cancel existing license, applications
and prevent any license providers from adding new.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Services orders to take effect.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Next and this is viewed as all, right we've got
to put some safeguards in.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Place is this a bridge too?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Far or is this a fair and Inevitable based on
the last several, Years.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
It's probably fair and. Inevitable BUT i don't. KNOW i,
mean this was a program that was really riddled with.
Fraud so can you get in there and try to fix? It,
well you, know fix the plane while you're flying, it
or you have to just land it and put it.
Down WHAT i always, say you, know these are the
kinds of CONVERSATIONS i have all the, time not on
the RADIO ce but other. People i've never run a state,
(39:33):
agency SO i don't. Know you, Know i'm not looking to,
Either so don't nominate. Me BUT i don't know if
you can fix this while you fly, it or if
people have to kind of endure some pain so we
can fix.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
It and that's a judgment call. It it's a tough.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
Call but the consequence of this kind of fraud is
there will be people who won't get services that they
that they need and.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Deserve i'm looking also in our final, minutes.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You've got a lot of. Headlines there's a lot of, stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Man there's a lot of stuff to, cover and we,
could we, could we could do another whole, hour but
unfortunately we got to talk hockey much chagrined at the
top of the.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Hour And god bless everybody who wants to hear.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
That, ryan your, Guy Ryan, pasiga you're a big pretty well.
Yeah one of his quotes from The times piece is
getting a lot of. Attention no one was doing anything
about the red. Flags it was like someone was stealing
money from the cookie jar and they kept refilling. It
AND i, think to varying, degrees we've talked about this.
Before is that pretty? Much does that capture?
Speaker 4 (40:34):
It yes and. No nothing is that good For, ryan
but nothing is. That it's a good, Quote and you know.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Your attorneys have to.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
You you're smart enough to know you have to have
sometimes fiffy quotes to get.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Attention.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
CORRECT i follow in the footsteps Of Joe Friedber yes.
Too so it's not that simple because there were people
early on who saw the. Problem they raised, it the
feeding our future people hired, lawyers they went after, them
they called them. Racists i'm repeating WHAT i said. Before
so it's not like everybody was sort of blind to.
(41:09):
This when you go from zero sixty and are starting
collecting a million dollars a month out of, nowhere people
notice and they saw. It i'm not making excuses for.
Them i'm not making excuses for. Anybody it's just that
it's a little too much to say nobody was paying
attention because there were, people AND i admire those.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
People some of them have testified in the.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
Trials SO i just pulled back a little bit from
What ryan was, saying you, know and It's Joe friedberg.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Moment, Lastly.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
I'm.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
LOOKING i don't know how much you know about, this
but it got a lot of. Attention employees with The
Minnesota Department Human, SERVICES i think they had their own
ex Handle twitter, handle and they went hard in the
wake of The New York times, story servicing saying that
there was great, failure the lack of, accountability and they
they among the allegations here.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well as.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Staff we first had witnessed and observed fraud, happening yet
we were shut, down, reassigned told to keep. Quiet sometimes more,
so those are really serious, charges which to me need
to be.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Investigated and, again follow the story.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
If they're if they're not, legit let's get to them
and see where they break.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Down but what did you make of? That and are
you concerned about what was? Offered then, well if, true
it's deeply. Concerning if it's not, true then it's another side.
Show AND i don't know who wrote. IT i don't
know who they.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Are they did not come to us WHEN i was
A us, attorney AND i DON'T i, MEAN i read
that multiple.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
TIMES i.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
DON'T i have no way of knowing if one person wrote,
it a committee wrote, it whether they're one hundreds or,
two whether they're, here whether they're In.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
RUSSIA i just don't. Know and if.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
People were real harmed by this kind of, conduct then come,
forward get, protection and get your rights. Addressed but not never.
CAME i was doing this for three. YEARS i never
heard that word of. That, again doesn't mean it didn't,
happen doesn't mean they had an obligation to come to.
(43:19):
ME i don't think they've come to THE Us attorney's
office SINCE i. Left if they, have, okay and that's
the only WAY i can address. It but without somebody
saying it happened to, me and here the. Specifics these
are very general. ALLEGATIONS i don't know where you go with.
It so how do you investigate? It maybe they'll come
(43:39):
forward to, somebody but other than just putting it out there,
ANONYMOUSLY i don't know what you'd do with.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
IT i wish we had more.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Time another good conversation today will say we keep saying
this because we always run out of. Time we have
to get your Best Joe friedberg story next, time maybe
one of your best Round rosenbaum stories as, well BECAUSE
i think you got a.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
COUPLE i.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
DO i have two stories about each of. These ease
of them. ALL i.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
See that's.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
It, well then maybe one of these times that's we
just we will we will ignore the.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Headlines it's hard to.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Do you read me all these quotes of these, headlines
AND i got off the. Cuff i've got to respond to.
That six five one guy, Says i'm holding.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Back that's.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
It that's, it it's it's it's maybe six five one.
Guy i'll contact you. Directly, no that's okay. Too i'm
in the. Book, yeah that's. It, thanks thanks for. Coming
always a, pleasure and we'll talk.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Soon appreciate.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
It FORMER Us Attorney Andy luger kind enough to join
us in studio for a terrific. Hour we'll come back
and talk. Hockey AS i, said you're red Hot. Minnesota
while back in action, Tonight russo is not, there but
he still has a lot to say about your favorite
club that's now
Yeah, all right, we are indeed back in studio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Outstanding guest Andy Luger kind enough to stop by once again,
and as I mentioned, if you have questions, we might
be able to squeeze some of those in several have
actually already come in.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
The the Bradshawn Brian Cavan text line at six four
six eight six, welcome back to the program.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Good to have you back. Yeah, I know you.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Do you I can't remember we talked about this before.
Do you embrace this kind of cold? I mean, you're you're, you're,
you're Northeast guy, right, yeah, originally so is it? Or
do you does this kind of cold get obnoxious to.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
You every time? Every time? Are there people that embrace this? Well?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Probably not as much as they pretend, I'm guessing yeah,
but there's some people bothered by it, more bothered enough
if they say they could leave, because you could leave,
you go other places. I mean, you're, you're, you know,
established enough, you could end up being a big shot
attorney anywhere pretty much at this point.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Because yeah, that's a nice thought. I love living here.
That's clear weather. It's stupid, but I love living here,
and I've lived here for a long time, and I'm
not going anywhere. I've got a cold sin. So I
sound a little off, but I'm not going anywhere. But
I don't know how you embrace this. I think people
lie to themselves. Okay, I embrace the state. I embrace
(01:41):
what yeh do here? I love it here. I hate this.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Okay, that's honest. See, I think that's honest.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I try to be You're not one of us, though,
because you weren't born here, no as I neither of mine.
I've been told that over and over. I'm approaching forty
years here, and that's still not long enough. I was told, yeah,
including by the lake great sed Hartman a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Ago, whenever I would never be one of us.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Good for him, and he you know I knew him
a little.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Bit, I bet you did.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
He was very good friends with my wife's grandfather. Really yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
My wife's grandfather was a football player at the you
Lou Gross, Big Lou Gros, Okay, and they were very
very close all the way till the end.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Really yeah. Yeah, So I got to know Seid a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, through Grandpa Lou didn't exactly welcome me to town
when I anybody else who's a writer or a columnist
is the enemy, even though if you work for the
same newspaper it's supposed to be. If they work for
another newspaper, that's just the nature sid very competitive. Speaking
of competitive, your vikings haven't been very nutley. But you
(02:46):
have a message I think that you would like to convey,
and we'll get to the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So don't worry.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I know a lot of people want to get to
the other stuff. We will, but a message that an
urgent one that you think is important to convey surrounding
the proper approach with JJ McCarthy.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Yes, so this season's over. That's not rocket science. But
the rest of the season to me is the pre
preseason for next year. Maybe you guys parties, I haven't
been listening as much as I probably should.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Okay, well, I have a job. Yeah you're kind of busy.
I understand, but.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
This is the beginning of the pre preseason and what
we need to do seems to me, we meaning all
of us who care about the team, is just figure
out where we can go with this guy, and to
me that means throw the ball. And I know you're
big on running the ball, and in the past I
agreed with you. You should have been doing that more,
(03:46):
you know. But at this point you're saying fourth and
one with the other guy, and we get the Garrol
you premeny in pass so that but this time throw
it and his guards. He is really a Brosmar guy.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
He is the original Brosemer Brownstone.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
The other guy.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I mean, SAME's Max Brosmer, mister Luger because.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
It's not your PREMI.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
The other guy.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
All right, so nobody knows what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
We've we've invoked a dated reference once or twice before.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Okay, because that's right when you're watching the game, that's
what you thought about.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I did.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
I kind of look it up.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
So your point is, throw the ball, find out can
he get it to Jefferson?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, and he's got these great receivers. What can he do?
Throw simple patterns, whatever it is. Don't worry so much
about are we going to win or lose. I don't
believe in throwing the rest of the season to get
a draft pick. But let's just test him out in
different situations. And again nobody asked my advice. This is
you know, Koc doesn't call me and Luga what do
(04:50):
you think?
Speaker 4 (04:50):
But this has been on my mind, let's get him
back there throwing the ball, testing out different patterns and
see what we can do. I think that would also
be good for Jefferson. Let's try to get the ball
to Jefferson. We have the best receiver in the league.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
It's now become ridiculous that we don't even throw to him.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, so that's right, that's my view. No, I think
that's very insightful. I don't disagree with it. I still
think you don't want to run the risk of traumatizing
the kid if he's throwing at sixty two times and
getting sacked eight times, because I also don't think he's
a person who's going to stay healthy all that easy.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
But I get what your point is.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And the one liberating aspect of being four and eight
is the pressure to that extent is off, right, It
really is. I mean, you're not even though they did
not intend to be in this position, that's a position
they're in. So go about your business, just trying to
have little victories within games.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
That's what you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
That's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yeah, And I also I'm looking to see because I
still believe in him.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And I may be in the minority on this, So
I don't know where you're at.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I'm still willing to watch. I'm still I'm not given
up on him.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
No, I am not.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So I'm a little bit beyond willing to watch. Well,
I'm a little worried what.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Some of the analytics indicate. But yeah, it's still really
his first yeah, whatever, seventy games played, whatever it is.
I just think you got to test it out, you know.
I don't want him to get hurt. I don't all
that stuff, but let's find out before the preseason, before
the next season. We waited so long for this season,
I did, at least with anxious anticipation, and now it's gone.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
So that's my view.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Do you have any Are you a Vikings fan who
suffers from any Sam Donald envy, any Daniel Jones envy,
any Aaron Rodgers envy? No?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I despise those thoughts because, wait, Dan, let's go back
to the end of last season. How many people were
clamoring to re sign Sam Donald after the playoff tobacle. Yeah, yeah,
the last two games were in debacle. Every but he
sort of said, that's the real Sam Donald. I got
nothing against Sam Donald, and I hope he does great.
(07:05):
I just think that we're reinventing history. There were I
did not hear anybody say that's our franchise quarterback, so
to reinvent it and say look how great he's doing
this season. And by the way, you know, I don't
think he's a super Bowl quarterback. He's better than what
we've got. But you invest in the future. You pick
(07:26):
your future, you stick with it, you do the best
you can. At some point, if it's not working, you
give up and move on. But I'm not there.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
How old were you on December fourth, nineteen seventy seven?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
All right, so I was born in fifty nine.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay, so do you have much Were you a Vikings
fan then?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
No, I was so.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I was living in so by December of seventy seven,
I was already in college. I was an Amherst College
football fan. We were undefeated as a freshman team. Just
in case anybody was checking, I was a Giants fan.
There wasn't much of that back then, but I kind
of enjoy I think I told you this story how
(08:07):
I met Alan Page when I moved here.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yep, I enjoyed the Vikings.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I'm not one of those people who thinks there's some
scar or scarlet letter for having lost for super Bowls.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
My teams didn't get to the Super Bowl. So have
I always admired the Vikings and.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Place you played outside to his freezing cold, like we've
talked about.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I thought that was great.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I bring up the date because I'm reminded by a
good friend of the program from the Flynn family, Dan Flynn.
December fourth, nineteen seventy seven, what was then the greatest
comeback or largest comeback in National Football League history. The
Vikings erased a twenty four to nothing third quarter deficit
and beat the Niners at the met twenty eight, twenty seven.
(08:48):
Rookie quarterback Tommy Kramer enters early in the fourth and
throws three touchdown passes, including the sixty nine yard game
winner to Sammy White with one minute, thirty eight seconds
to go. So you probably don't have much recollection of that.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I don't remember Tommy Kramer being the guy who would
throw that many touchdown passes. Nothing against Tommy, be careful
because he listens. Yeah you might hear from him. I've
met him. A nice guy. I just don't remember him
being the guy who would throw you.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Know, yeah, he had his moments. For sure, I.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Believe in JJ. I'm putting that on there.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
No, that's that's it's it's you're try to be consistent.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
You're saying that's the guy.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
And I also believe in chaos. Until you turn on him,
I'm not going to turn on He won't turn on
if he if he really can't do it, you call
the question. Yeah, but I believe in him.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
All right, let me ask you this way, all right,
do you have to how much more do you have
to see the rest of this season to say, yes,
we're starting training camp with him and him alone again,
designated as a guy, no competition, it's him. Because that's
(09:56):
the question moving forward that affects a lot of people,
including Justin Jefferson and this whole operation based on how
old this team is that you do you just give
him the job again or do you bring in a
veteran that at least has a chance.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
What how much do you have to How much does
Andy Luger have to see the rest of the season.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
I got to see some improvement and I've got to
see progression. Uh, and then I kind of want to
hear what Jefferson says. I want to hear what the
guys on the field say, because they're going to see it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, they're all saying wonderful things. But they've said that
from the beginning. But but we're going to know what
Jefferson really thinks at the end. He's you know, he's
in the prime of his career.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
If he sees it.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
If there was Chris Carter and then Randy Moss here,
we already know, we know for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Yeah, that's it. They're gone too, So he is unusual
in that right. The other thing I want them to
do is stop fumbling.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, we have a takeaway turnover ratio problem we do
where I think we're either last or second to last
in the league.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
On uh turner, somebody gains ten yards on the ground
and I'm yelling, go down and hold onto.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
The that's a problem too. All right, let's do this.
Let's get our first break in.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
We're chatting with former US attorney Andy Lueger, and yeah,
we decided to start with the football talk because I
know it was in him and he wanted to get
it out. So we'll do that. Or we have done that,
and now we're going to get into some other issues.
His reaction to a couple of pretty timely stories. Some
of those stories he has been very closely connected to
over the last several years. So we'll do that as
(11:29):
we have Andy until the top of the hour Russo Radio.
You ever at a hockey guy, You ever got a puckhead?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Not once? Really don't.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I can't stay to hockey, I know, and that's a problem.
I can't skate.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I tried.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
I literally can't skate. So watching people fly around un.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Skate, is it an impressive to you?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I just it like sends Okay, it's just me anxious because.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I can't do it as you can't do it.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I can go out on a football field and knock somebody.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Down, get knocked it down, which you've done for ten years.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I can hit a baseball, I can hit a back,
I can shoot a free throw.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I can't do that, so it's not relatable.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I can't relate to it, and it makes me anxious.
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
The sports the toy Department section of our conversation with Andy,
I think is pretty close to DOUN will come back
and talk other matters next.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Sunday's matchup with Washington is almost here. You can find
our street team on the Plaza outside US Banks Stadium ASCAW.
You can win Papa Murphy's game day meal deals for
an entire year. More INFODKFA dot com. The keyword is calendar.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Well, you're getting ripped, Andy Lueger by Gary the Mailman
who rights from Albert Lee for the record. Gary the
Mailman loves this weather. So he's saying he really does
embrace it.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
You know what it does, God bless him. I want
to be clear.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
If people love this weather, great, Okay, people love hockey,
it sounds like it's.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Almost resentful of them for loving.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
No.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Not okay, you're just saying you can't love it, and
you're not going to pretend.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
The first time I saw what is it? Ice fishing
huts on the lake? Was it the Midgie? It was
at I al must sell over, But God bless I'm
a libertarian at heart.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Would you load? You do what you want to do?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, Okay, that's fair enough, whether it's.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Hockey or ice fishing or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Okay, So where should we begin.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
We had Kessler in here yesterday and a lot of
what we talked about was a story that was breaking
yesterday afternoon. Actually, we seem to have indication that ICES
is going to come in here pretty aggressively, pretty soon.
Maybe I've missed something. They're already here today attempting to
target the Somali population. And then there was a headline
(13:47):
indicating that the police chief of the City of Minneapolis said,
our advice is call nine to one one if you
find yourself in any kind of I guess confrontation with ICE,
which struck me as the recipe for some potentially really
dangerous situations here.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
What do you make of this? So two things. One,
I'm worried we don't need a repeat of what happened
in June twenty twenty. This city really doesn't deserve to
go through what we went through before. We're coming together
in so many ways, we're finding our way forward after
(14:28):
the horrific events of the pandemic and the murder of
George Floyd. That's number one. But number two is we're
getting off target.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
The conversation we should be having, and the conversation we
were starting to have, is one, how does Somali community
leaders deal.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
With this level of fraud?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Not because we're blaming the entire community, because nobody should,
and I'm never going to do that, but leaders need
to embrace the problem, talk about it, have conversations with
law enforcement. There needs to be some response to this,
and that's number one. Number two is talking about the
solutions to what happened. And you know, we're going to
(15:11):
enter into a campaign season there are going to be
all these recriminations about what happened. We should be having
a sober but aggressive conversation about how to fix it.
And once these guys who I don't know, published their
story about al Shabab money, you know that the money
went to al Shabab, which I'll talk about, we completely
(15:33):
went off track. And just as a career person working
in law enforcement as a prosecutor, the left and the
right both do this. You know, law enforcement and prosecutors
do a great job identifying a problem, prosecuting, investigating, exposing
a problem, and then people take it and run with
it politically, and we lose the thread.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And that's what I the moment I.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Saw that story, and now we've got to investigate whether
the he went to al Shabab.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
That's that's almost entirely nonsense.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
We investigated the money, and unless something's happened in the
months that I've been gone, we know where the money
went and got this fraud money. These were these were
guys committing fraud. They want to get rich, they agreed, Yeah,
they want to buy houses. You know, they were living
in a cramped department.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Pay one.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
They've got a Lexus and a Mercedes Benz and a
two million dollar house the next day.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
That's what it is.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
But all of a sudden, somebody alleges without any evidence,
that it was going to fund terrorism. That sets us
off track. Then it becomes about the Somali community supporting terrorism.
We're gone, We're off down a side road. And that's
and the left does this too, and I hate it.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Here's what's interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I looked up. I found this via men Post. This
is from twenty sixteen. Okay, here's your headline witness for
the prosecution, US Attorney Andy Andrew Luger on isl verdict,
the Somali community and the media. And it did trip
and me remind me that you actually do have some
experience when it comes to prosecuting in cases in which
(17:10):
what you were able to prove in court was that
there was a terror terrorist connection.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Correct, yeah, different case, but you do have some history
with this.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I bring it up again to make the point that
you're not afraid to talk about it when you feel
the evidence suggests that's the store.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
We have the biggest Isis conspiracy case in the country
right here, and I ran that investigation. Great prosecutors, great
FBI agents. Nobody was afraid of anything. We dove into that.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
We addressed it, we prosecuted it.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
I met with Somali community leaders repeatedly to talk about
solutions that's not this, and it's sort of just frustrating,
and maybe you know, I wanted to talk about this.
It's frustrating when left right activists, politicians, whatever they are,
hate something that people are working on and doing a
(18:03):
great job with it and go off on a tangent
and everybody follows that tangent. And I've had it on
both sides.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So I want to read a couple comments from this
is from a a I think a right leaning publication
called City Journal.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, that's the one.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
And by the way, for the record, I want to
check these numbers with you because I think these are
up to date. Indictments in the Feeding Our Future case
have now been brought against seventy eight defendants. The newest
of the seventy eight cases was charged on November twenty fourth.
The seventy eight indictments have resulted in seven guilty verdicts,
to acquittals, fifty guilty please, and five fugitives, with one
(18:40):
deceased defendant thirteen unresolved cases await trial. Does that sound about.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Right to you? Pretty accurate?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It does?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
For the record, Now here's what he writes.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Records show that the defendants sent millions of dollars to
Kenya and China. They also send money to Somalia, mostly
in cash. Al Shabab controls large portions of Somalia and
collects a mafia style street text on all financial transactions
in areas under its control. And in this way, some
of the Feeding Our Future and other fraud proceeds likely
(19:12):
ended up in the hands of al Shabab, which he
says would be outrageous. However, he adds this, there is
no evidence that the perpetrators in these cases intentionally directed
money to Al Shabab or any other terrorist organization. That
evidants were not looking to fund terrorism, but to enrich
themselves and fund their lifestyles.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Does that sound right? Is that the Scott Johnson wrote this?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Scott so Scott, Scott writes for Paroline. Okay, I know
Scott well. He covered this very closely, and Scott is
pushing back on that original story. He's a great guy,
very smart, very conservative. But I respect him and disagree
with him, but I respect him. Scott knows that these
(19:56):
guys weren't terrorists. And so the original story in the
City Journal.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
City Journal exactly, Yes, that.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Apparently sort of got this wave going. Now we're investigating
this and new calls for investigations, etc. And there are
number of problems with it. And it's the same problem
that I saw on the left when I was US attorney,
and I would get you need to investigate X. People
think they know something or they suspect something, they call
for investigations, and they never say who's going to do
(20:26):
the investigation so and they never say when those people
are doing your new investigation into something for which there's
no evidence, what are the cases they're not working on.
Who are the really bad guys that we know about
who are not getting prosecuted Because we're going down a
rabbit hole.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And that's what's happening here.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So in fact, what you're coming back to again is
keep your eye on the ball. There's enough there to
go after. But you cheapen those cases if you pretend
this is one of those cases, right, and.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
It has a moralizing effect on the people who are
working on the cases.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I know that not right from past experience. All Right,
I'm looking at the headline here. I want to get
your reaction to. In fact, we had a couple of
Texters who wanted to get into this as well. A
judge in Minnesota is facing heat after she overturned a
guilty verdict for an individual convicted in a seven point
two million dollar fraud scheme that involved taxpayer money. Abdi
(21:26):
Fatah Yusef and his wife were charged in June twenty
twenty four after they were accused of sealing seven point
two million from the state's medicaid program of running a
home health care business that lacked an office building and
operated for years out of a mailbox, according to the
Minnesota Attorney General's office. Now, there's obviously been a lot
of pushback to the judge in this case, basically, as
(21:49):
I understand it, vacating saying that there was too much
that the judge was troubled by the manner in which
the fraud was able to be perpetuated, but the case
relied heavily on circumstantial evidence, adding that the state didn't
rule out other potential reasonable inferences.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
What do you know about this case?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Not much more than that.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
So I can't criticize the ruling, but I can comment
as follows. I've been a prosecutor on and off since
nineteen eighty nine and a defense lawyer in between. I
only know of two other cases where judges overturned a
jury verdict. Both of those cases were reversed on appeal
(22:33):
because it's not for the judge in general to decide
inferences and circumstantial evidence that you instruct a jury with
the fact that circumstantial evidence is the same has the same.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Weight as direct evidence.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
So I've had plenty of circumstantial evidence cases. I had
a mafia case back in Brooklyn, little mafia case back
in Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
That was all the contradition in terms little mafia cases.
Guy was a wasn't you know they have they have
left level of wise guys. He was not high that
high on the pecking order.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Is barely a wise guy. He was more like a
wise kid, and he wasn't all that wise. But it
was all circumstantial evidence because I couldn't get anybody to testify,
and so it was all based on circumstantial evidence. That's
not that unusual, and you don't have to disprove other inferences.
You've got a show beyond a reasonable doubt that this
person did it based on the evidence, and a.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Jury thought that. So I I find it troubling, But
I don't know the specifics of the case, don't know
the judge.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
And I haven't read the opinion. Yeah, because this wasn't
one of your cases.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, No, and you know, it's like, so that's my
It's very very very rare and should be very rare.
I really believe in jury's I I'm one of those
people who think that juries get it right most of
the time. And I've seen it, even in cases I've lost.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I've heard almost those exact same words from the late
great Rond Rosenbaum. He used to tell me that over
and over again as well. He very much believes in juries,
not that they're perfect, but that he does tend to
believe in them.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yep, and Ron lost his sheriff cases too.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
The New York Times story, which covered a lot of
ground that really has been reported locally and regionally, but
kind of put it in a big box. And it's
the New York Times, so obviously it's going to get
a significant amount of attention. In fact, let me say,
I can find the headline how fraud swamped Minnesota's social
(24:32):
services system on Tim Walls's watch. Now, a couple of
things I want to get your reaction to with.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Then the piece.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Some of this I think you and I have discussed before,
but I want to get back to it. There's a
quote one of the individuals quoted in this piece, his
name Cassey Megan or Morgan. I hope I'm not mangling
that name, described as a Somali American who formerly worked
as a fraud investigator for the Minnesota Attorney General's office.
(25:00):
And this individual said elected officials in the state were
reluctant to take more assertive action and response to allegations
of the Somali community. The suggestion here here's what he said.
There is a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might
cause political backlash among the Somali community, which is a
core voting block for Democrats, said mister Morgan, who was
(25:22):
among the few prominent figures in the Somali community to
speak out about the fraud. Do you believe that is
part of this story that should be continued to be explored.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Well, everything should be explored. I don't, but i'll tell
you why. What I think it's a variant of that.
But what I have seen is a fear of being
labeled a racist.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Which we have discussed before. I'm going there next, but
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
That's more of what I've seen, because I did see
people speaking out about this. There was a lawsuit filed.
The people who ran Feeding our Future were very aggressive
going after anybody who challenged them and getting support for
their cause. Not because we're going to lobby Democrats and
(26:13):
they're going to, you know, go with us, but accusing
people of being racist if they challenge what Feeding our
Future was doing and others. I called that out when
I was still US attorney. Did you called it out
with us last time?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
You're on?
Speaker 4 (26:27):
And I think those days are over because I think
people see it for what it is and I think
it's going to be very hard to do that. Ever, again,
that doesn't mean you go after the whole Somali community.
Doesn't mean you know everybody who's involved involved in fraud.
It just means don't come to me saying I'm a
racist if I'm asking questions about your business.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
To your point, those days are over.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
In the Times piece, in an email, the group Feeding
Our Future told the state agency, this is a Minisota
Department of Education officials that failing to promptly approve new
applicants from quote minority owned businesses unquote would result in
a lawsuit featuring accusations of racism that would be quote
sprawled across the news.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
And that's what they did, and they did that lawsuit
and every people rightly.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
I mean, maybe we talked about this.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
You're a mid level manager at one of these departments
overseeing this stuff, and how do you feel about sitting
in a deposition being accused of racism?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Not good?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Not good?
Speaker 4 (27:29):
And is that worth it to you? Does that have
a chilling effect on you? I think it done.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
We need to have more fearless officials in that regard
to right because that did absolutely contribute to this situation.
And I don't think enough people you have. But I
don't know, I don't think enough people have owned up
to that. That's part of the problem. I think where
people get cynical about how is it ever really going
to change if there's not an admission or two from
(27:57):
other people to say, yeah, that that is part of
what contributed to how long this went on before the
alarm bells went off.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Well, I think we're I think we're over it. And
maybe I'm naive, but I saw it. I called it out.
They tried the same thing. If people remember when they
when they went and bribed a juror, Yes, that's true,
you're right, part of the instructions. And I went on
about this at length when we when we indicted the
people who were part of that conspiracy, they wrote instructions
(28:27):
for the juror, and three separate times in the one
page of instructions were these people are all racist. This
is a racist investigation. It's a racist prosecution. That was
the mindset we get away with saying that. And I
stood up at the press conference when we indicted these
guys and said, these days are over.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Stop it.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Nobody should fall for this nonsense ever again and call
it out. And I think, I really do think it
ain't gonna work going forward, whoever is governor, whoever's in
these agencies.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Another individual who quoted in this piece, I want to
get your reaction to a couple of things, he said.
Ahmed Samatara, professor at McAllister, described in this piece as
a leading expert in Somali's studies, set a reckoning over
the fraud and its consequences for Minnesota was overdue.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
American society and the denizens of the state of Minsisota
have been extremely good to Somali's said doctor Somitar, who
is Somali American. Doctor Solitar said that Somali refugees who
came to the United States after their country civil war
were raised in a culture in which stealing from the
country's dysfunctional and corrupt government was widespread. Minnesota, he said,
proved susceptible to a rampant fraud because it is quote
(29:38):
so tolerant, so open, and so geared toward keeping an
eye on the week. Now there's a lot there too,
because you have been one of the few people you're
very precise to make sure you do not blame an
entire community. But the last time you were on you
(29:58):
got specific about whether there was something within one element
of the culture that contributes to this sort of the
remarkable number of individuals who have been prosecuted in this case.
And that to me is what the professor seems to
be saying. And I'll say again, I don't think enough people.
There's too many people afraid that if they even go
(30:18):
that far. Oh broad brush, you're trump on this. You
want to just everybody who has any sort of Somali
in their blood, you want them out of here.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I think that's what we're losing right now. With all
of the.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Ice stuff and the al Shabab stuff, We've lost the focus.
So they're estimate between sixteen and eighty thousand people of
Somali descent in Minnesota. I interact with people of Somali
descent at the doctor's office, you name it. None of
them are involved in fraud. None of them have anything
to do with any of this stuff. There is an
(30:52):
element within this community, and there are in other ethnic communities.
I prosecuted cases on the East Coast, all within one,
you know, ethnic community who are engaged in this. And
they sought each other out, They went to their friends,
their neighbors, and they said, let's do this.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
We're all going to get rich. And they did.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
But that doesn't have anything to do with the you
know if it's two hundred people, then you've got whatever
seventy nine two hundred people who are not So go
to the leaders in the community, as we did with
the ISIS stuff.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Have conversations, not accusations, conversations about where is this coming from,
why are people doing this, call it out, stamp it down,
say we will not tolerate this. And I think that
was about to happen. I think all that went underground.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Now we are chatting with former US Attorney Andy Lueger.
Let's do this.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Let's get one more break in. I got a lot
more ground to cover. We're going to try to cover
as much as we can. Some good texts are coming
in as well, and there's definitely a couple of developments
in this story, or I guess stories that are kind
of connected to this story, that I want want to
get Andy's reaction to.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
So I'll still have time to do that.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
We will talk about Andy's favorite sport, hockey at the
top of the five o'clock hour with Michael Russo.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Russo Radio starts.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Then we are back with former US Attorney Andy Lueger
Russo Radio Top of the hour. This question, well, that's
not a question it's an observation from the text line
(32:31):
speaks for a few other people, and it's hard to
know how you might want to respond to it, or
either of us might want to respond to it, because
it's so general. But here's he's listing, and here's what
he writes. You are all afraid to speak the truth.
And I wish six or five to one. I think
he knows what he thinks the truth is, but he
needs to articulate what he believes that truth is and
(32:53):
what we are afraid of, what you are afraid of
in terms of you're pretty concent distant criticism of the
level of fraud, certainly starting with feeding our future, with
some other cases as well that's taking place, so and
getting specific about even within one aspect of the Somali
(33:14):
culture getting into this calling out the folks who basically
were called off of this stuff were afraid because they
thought they were going to be called racist. So I
don't know what is there is there something you're you're
holding back from us that you want to now confess.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I'm not known for holding back.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
I didn't think so, and I'm not known for being
afraid to tell the truth. But I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Because that shows a side of me that I you know,
I'll incorporate. I don't know. Well, if he's.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Got a specific tell me and then we'll pass it along.
I'm happy to you a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I know you loathe you. Try to be an equal opportunity.
I think ripper about politics because you think that's the future.
And part of the reason we're in the position we're
in is we've got people who refuse to call out
quote unquote their side because it can sustance to the
enemy and it's it's a road we've discussed on this
(34:04):
show many times with and without you, But I have
to try this on you, and you tell me where
you disagree. The governor was on Meet the Press. I
think this is this past Sunday, asked by the host
if he takes responsibility for widespread fraud discovered in some
Minnesota social service programs. Here was the Wall's answer, I
(34:26):
take responsibility for putting people in jail. Now, I gotta
tell you, Andy, that's pretty rich to me, okay, because
I we can argue about how much responsibility a governor
has in some of these cases if we want, but
it takes some gall to say I am.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
One thing I am going to take credit for is
we're putting him away. He didn't put him away.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Your office, through a couple of administrations, put him away.
So isn't that shouldn't that be a little bit of
troubling even to you as a Democrat.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
So here's for six' five one.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
GUY i don't want to be in the middle of
this political fight because WHATEVER i say gets blown up
and used in all sorts of WAYS i can't. CONTROL
i want to let the people who are engaged in
this fight have the, fight, okay and criticize each other
and call each other out and do.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
THAT i prosecuted this.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
CASE i lived this case with an amazing team of
people at THE, fbi THE, irs The postal inspectors in my,
office all of whom are heroes to.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
ME i don't want to be in the middle of
the politics on. THIS i just. Don't it's not Because i'm,
Afraid it's BECAUSE i don't want to do.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
It, okay Then i'll, SAY i just think it was
an extremely bad look AND i don't know what, again
what the line, is BUT i don't think he's found,
it AND i do think he's vulnerable and he should
be in my. Opinion, now let me ask you ABOUT
i have some of the details on this case AND i,
don't BUT i don't know THAT i have all of.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Them but it's coming up.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Again minnesota judge told the State's department Of education that
had a real problem after the agency suspended payments to
an organization before federal prosecutors uncovered a fraud scheme that
has now resulted in charges for seventy eight individuals in
twenty twenty. Two this is according to A newsweek's, story
but there are other. Accounts wall said a judge ordered
(36:17):
the state to continue making payments defeeding Our. Future, NOW
i THOUGHT i saw in, fact here's the statement in
twenty twenty twenty, two feed in Our future demanded THAT
mda make, payments and the court made it clear that
IF md were to continue the legal fight to withhold those,
PAYMENTS md would incur sanctions in legal. PENALTIES i thought
this WEEK i saw a response from that court's office
(36:41):
saying that is factually.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Incorrect can you give us shed some light on?
Speaker 4 (36:46):
This, yeah And i'll go back to when it, happened
SO i know the judge a good judge In Ramsey.
County what he, said if you read the, opinion is
you haven't presented evidence of, fraud presented evidence of sort
of paperwork, problems And i'm not going to stop allow
you to stop payment on that. Basis so it wasn't
(37:08):
as though he SAID i don't see any, FRAUD i
don't care about.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Fraud make the.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Payments my recollection of his opinion and what he said
in court was without you presenting evidence of, fraud this
other stuff that you're claiming that they're not getting their
paperwork in on. Time and THEN md, said, well, we'll,
we'll we'll work with feeding our future to improve the.
Process so this wasn't about. Fraud that's my. Recollection he's
(37:34):
a good. Judge it was a good. JUDGE i think
people went after him, incorrectly AND i think people realize
that after the.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Fact, well but.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Does that then give a little bit OF.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
I guess you say interference in their favor to the administration, saying,
look we when we tried to put up a couple
of red, flags a judge left us with no.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
CHOICE i don't think it's that.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
SIMPLE i think what really happened here is the racism
angle came up and people reacted to, that who were.
Litigating that's my take on. It it was who wants
to be labeled a? Racism, OKAY i go back to
that BECAUSE i think that played a big role. Here
not you, know we want votes from people.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Or whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Under the classification of is this throwing out the baby
with the? Bathwater here's the. Headline this is from a
couple of days. Ago using anti fraud, Powers MINNESOTA dhs
sets two year ban on new group home. Licenses they've
ordered a two year. Ban these are programs designed to
(38:42):
help people with disabilities live in their. Communities the department
will stop issuing new home and community based services, licenses
stop accepting any new license, applications cancel existing license, applications
and prevent any license providers from adding new.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Services orders to take effect.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Next and this is viewed as all, right we've got
to put some safeguards in.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Place is this a bridge too?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Far or is this a fair and Inevitable based on
the last several, Years.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
It's probably fair and. Inevitable BUT i don't. KNOW i,
mean this was a program that was really riddled with.
Fraud so can you get in there and try to fix? It,
well you, know fix the plane while you're flying, it
or you have to just land it and put it.
Down WHAT i always, say you, know these are the
kinds of CONVERSATIONS i have all the, time not on
the RADIO ce but other. People i've never run a state,
(39:33):
agency SO i don't. Know you, Know i'm not looking to,
Either so don't nominate. Me BUT i don't know if
you can fix this while you fly, it or if
people have to kind of endure some pain so we
can fix.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
It and that's a judgment call. It it's a tough.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
Call but the consequence of this kind of fraud is
there will be people who won't get services that they
that they need and.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Deserve i'm looking also in our final, minutes.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You've got a lot of. Headlines there's a lot of, stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Man there's a lot of stuff to, cover and we,
could we, could we could do another whole, hour but
unfortunately we got to talk hockey much chagrined at the
top of the.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Hour And god bless everybody who wants to hear.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
That, ryan your, Guy Ryan, pasiga you're a big pretty well.
Yeah one of his quotes from The times piece is
getting a lot of. Attention no one was doing anything
about the red. Flags it was like someone was stealing
money from the cookie jar and they kept refilling. It
AND i, think to varying, degrees we've talked about this.
Before is that pretty? Much does that capture?
Speaker 4 (40:34):
It yes and. No nothing is that good For, ryan
but nothing is. That it's a good, Quote and you know.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Your attorneys have to.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
You you're smart enough to know you have to have
sometimes fiffy quotes to get.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Attention.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
CORRECT i follow in the footsteps Of Joe Friedber yes.
Too so it's not that simple because there were people
early on who saw the. Problem they raised, it the
feeding our future people hired, lawyers they went after, them
they called them. Racists i'm repeating WHAT i said. Before
so it's not like everybody was sort of blind to.
(41:09):
This when you go from zero sixty and are starting
collecting a million dollars a month out of, nowhere people
notice and they saw. It i'm not making excuses for.
Them i'm not making excuses for. Anybody it's just that
it's a little too much to say nobody was paying
attention because there were, people AND i admire those.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
People some of them have testified in the.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
Trials SO i just pulled back a little bit from
What ryan was, saying you, know and It's Joe friedberg.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Moment, Lastly.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
I'm.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
LOOKING i don't know how much you know about, this
but it got a lot of. Attention employees with The
Minnesota Department Human, SERVICES i think they had their own
ex Handle twitter, handle and they went hard in the
wake of The New York times, story servicing saying that
there was great, failure the lack of, accountability and they
they among the allegations here.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well as.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Staff we first had witnessed and observed fraud, happening yet
we were shut, down, reassigned told to keep. Quiet sometimes more,
so those are really serious, charges which to me need
to be.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Investigated and, again follow the story.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
If they're if they're not, legit let's get to them
and see where they break.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Down but what did you make of? That and are
you concerned about what was? Offered then, well if, true
it's deeply. Concerning if it's not, true then it's another side.
Show AND i don't know who wrote. IT i don't
know who they.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Are they did not come to us WHEN i was
A us, attorney AND i DON'T i, MEAN i read
that multiple.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
TIMES i.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
DON'T i have no way of knowing if one person wrote,
it a committee wrote, it whether they're one hundreds or,
two whether they're, here whether they're In.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
RUSSIA i just don't. Know and if.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
People were real harmed by this kind of, conduct then come,
forward get, protection and get your rights. Addressed but not never.
CAME i was doing this for three. YEARS i never
heard that word of. That, again doesn't mean it didn't,
happen doesn't mean they had an obligation to come to.
(43:19):
ME i don't think they've come to THE Us attorney's
office SINCE i. Left if they, have, okay and that's
the only WAY i can address. It but without somebody
saying it happened to, me and here the. Specifics these
are very general. ALLEGATIONS i don't know where you go with.
It so how do you investigate? It maybe they'll come
(43:39):
forward to, somebody but other than just putting it out there,
ANONYMOUSLY i don't know what you'd do with.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
IT i wish we had more.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Time another good conversation today will say we keep saying
this because we always run out of. Time we have
to get your Best Joe friedberg story next, time maybe
one of your best Round rosenbaum stories as, well BECAUSE
i think you got a.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
COUPLE i.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
DO i have two stories about each of. These ease
of them. ALL i.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
See that's.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
It, well then maybe one of these times that's we
just we will we will ignore the.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Headlines it's hard to.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Do you read me all these quotes of these, headlines
AND i got off the. Cuff i've got to respond to.
That six five one guy, Says i'm holding.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Back that's.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
It that's, it it's it's it's maybe six five one.
Guy i'll contact you. Directly, no that's okay. Too i'm
in the. Book, yeah that's. It, thanks thanks for. Coming
always a, pleasure and we'll talk.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Soon appreciate.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
It FORMER Us Attorney Andy luger kind enough to join
us in studio for a terrific. Hour we'll come back
and talk. Hockey AS i, said you're red Hot. Minnesota
while back in action, Tonight russo is not, there but
he still has a lot to say about your favorite
club that's now
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.