Jonny Athletic, Ben Leber! - Bumper to Bumper 11/24/25 Hour Two

Bumper to Bumper with Dan Barreiro!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Human.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
It's time.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
Johnny headache. I did do something about that. Right now
it is that time again, Johnny athletic showing his I
think athleticism, his nimbleness, because two hours ago I said
how about five o'clock? And he said fine, And then

(00:30):
right before the show, I said, how about four o'clock?
Is I forgot? Lieberg takes us into the five o'clock hours.
It's fine. That's Johnny. I mean he's helpful to anybody
and everybody but members of the hockey community. Is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (00:46):
I think accurate?

Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah, not just I would say athletic Dan, but also coachable, right.
I mean, you know, you just put you, just me
in the spot that you need and I'm going to
get it done for you. And so a real glue guy,
and so I tell him.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
I just tell him.

Speaker 4 (01:01):
Blake Moore, as you gather around your Thanksgiving tables on Thursday,
I hope you just have a little thought for me
there in the gratitude that you express.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
It looks more and more as if brosmur is going
to be the guy on Sunday? Is that a good
thing or a bad thing?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:22):
I mean, I guess I'm to the point now, Dan
where it's probably a good thing just in terms of
I'm not even one of those, you know, I'm not
on the guards the bandwagon of Hey, he might be
the quarterback of the future, and he's the diamond in
the rough right under our noses and all these things
and the future starts now kind of a thing. But

(01:43):
it just seems like the l after the last couple
of weeks here that JJ McCarthy needs a break. And
I still would like to see him play a lot
more down the stretch here of the season so that
you can get even closer to a true valueuation. But
it looks like his head is swimming. It looks like

(02:05):
this is a little too much for him right now,
and I just think it may may be a detriment
to keep throwing him out there, especially against one of
the best defenses in the league this week on the road.
And so if it is Brosmer, I'll be intrigued to
see how he does. But I'll also think this might
be a little bit of a of a need on

(02:26):
JJ McCarthy's part to just catch his breath, watch from
the sideline and then try and go at it again.
You know, A couple of weeks down the road, provided
Brozemer doesn't just completely light it up again things around.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
You know, in a heartbeat, are you.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
A big fan of the EPA? And by that I
don't mean the Environmental Protection Agency?

Speaker 4 (02:45):
Well, I'm you know, the other one is going away,
So I mean, I don't know if you know being
a fan of that one is it is worthwhile right now,
even though I was in the past. But EPA, I
guess I sort of am because it really does.

Speaker 5 (02:59):
See.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
It seems like an analytic and a metric that all
the smart yeah football guys cite like chapter and verse
as if it's the Bible.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
But I'll be honest with you, I don't have a
great grasp on exactly what it.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I mean, I think it stands for expected points added,
and it's supposed to be as fallutin, as in high
fallutin as any of them. And the staff that's getting
a lot of attention today is that since the two
thousand and five season, eight hundred and thirteen quarterbacks have
thrown one hundred and fifty passers or more to qualify

(03:34):
for the EPA, and of all those JJ ranks, eight
hundred and seventh. Now there's another analytic in which he's
second to last only to JaMarcus Russell. I think that
goes even further back, which none of this, none of
which is particularly good. I threw this out earlier, that

(03:54):
the the ad to add to several sticky wickets for
this franchise. Right now, I think they're this one. I
believe you don't have to be invested in Brosmer Brownstones
to intuitively think there's a chance that today, or let's say,
in his first season of actual work in regular season games,

(04:17):
Brosmer might be readier than JJ McCarthy. But the sticky
wicket part is that doesn't necessarily mean that eventually he
will be the better answer, because, as you know, it's
not just about what you're doing, it's about what people
project you're capable of doing. The proverbial cliched upside. So

(04:39):
that adds another layer here where I can see Brosmer
coming in, not necessarily lighting it up, but looking more professional.
And I think it's going to be because Vikings fans
are so vulnerable right now, they're gonna grab on any
of it and say this is the guy, this is
the guy we invest in forever and ever and ever
and it's not on pres Every once in a while

(05:01):
that's you know, that works, but it's still rare. And
that's what's funky about this whole situation, on top of
all the other permutations that the Vikings are dealing with here,
because it isn't just you know, he's two years older.
In fact, he's twenty four and a half. You know,
he's more of a he's not a mobile guy. He's
just I'm gonna drop back, read and throw. So I
wouldn't be surprised if he actually looks better, but I

(05:24):
don't know that that necessarily means he's the answer.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, Dan, that was really well said.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
And here's what I'm what I'm about to say is
going to sound all very smart, aleky and hot takey
and even maybe disrespectful. And I do not mean that because,
as I've said on the show of the set elsewhere,
I was a JJ McCarthy guy coming into I do
think that eventually I'm not ready to give up on him.

(05:49):
I'll just say that, But I will say this right
now today, putting Brax Brozemer out there, whatever we see
could be better than what we've seen from Jay Miss,
because it's hard not to be better. Like that's the
problem here, Dan is like as pragmatic as I have
been and as patient as I want to be with

(06:10):
JJ McCarthy, because that's what has you have to do
when you are a young quarterback and when you're developing
the young quarterback. What has Kevin O'Connell said time and
time again, organizations fail quarterbacks more often than quarterbacks fail organizations.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
So you have to stick with it.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
You cannot panic, you can't do all these things. But
every week that we have seen, outside of the two
fourth quarters against Chicago and the game against Detroit which
was solid, everything.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Else has not been just bad. It's been historically bad.
It's been awful.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
And so that is what is coloring all of this
right now, is that you put Brozemoer out there and
if he is not historically bad, he's better than JJ McCarthy. Now,
to your other point, there is a reason that JJ
McCarthy was taken tenth overall and as Rosmer wasn't taken
at all, is because there's physical tools. There's the thing

(07:06):
that he showed from a leadership perspective at Michigan winning
the national championship, doing all of those things that scouts,
many scouts, not just the Biking, believe that, hey, this
is a guy who could be a long term quarterback solution.
The always one of the biggest knocks against him was
he hasn't played much football. You know, Bo Nicks, Jayden Daniels,

(07:27):
Sailor Williams, all these other players played a ton of
football in college. JJ McCarthy didn't, so his learning curve
may be a little longer. But that said, man, it
has been so bad that it really does make you
think about the whole larger picture, probably sooner than you
want to.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, that's very fair. And you know, I've made this
point before. When I get textures, who will remind me
of some of the numbers and the production of people.
You know, that to some of the great names in
pro football history, including John Lway, Peyton Manning, et cetera.
But what they tend to leave out is most of

(08:05):
the time the teams they inherited were also starting over.
The supporting casts were sketchy at best, awful at worst.
And you know, we get it. This offensive line hasn't
been what it's supposed to be, but there is abundant
talent relative to what most teams are dealing with when
they're they draft a number one quarterback with the number

(08:28):
one overall pick after finishing you know, two and fifteen
the year before. That has to be factored into the
historic nature here of of his performances time after time.
I honestly thought we've reached I think we've reached a
point where it's not that's not sustainable in the short run.
And I believe that the head coach was a borderline

(08:54):
abusive with Carson Wentz not pulling him in the fourth
quarter of his last game. I think it's borderline abuse
mentally speaking, forget the concussion, just mentally speaking, to throw
out the same guy again if this is where he
is at right now, and that's not the same as
giving up on him forever. But I firmly believe that
it's we're in that same a category of the head

(09:16):
coach needs to show be the head coach and show
some element of understanding of the situation and even some mercy.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
And also it's on two fronts that way, Dan, because
I agree with you in terms of it could be
detrimental to JJ McCarthy's own personal development and like confident
belief that he can do this all of those things
that's in one pile.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
In the other pile is you could be.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
Damaging his ability to lead his teammates going forward, Like
there's going to be a point when he keeps airmailing
in these passes the Jalen Taylor and Justin Jefferson into
all these guys, when he takes the stack when he shouldn't,
when he holds the balls, when he holds the ball
too long, when he does, you know, when he does
all of the things that he is doing that the.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Veteran on this roster will check out on him exactly.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
And I do think that JJ is trying his darnedest
and probably doing at best he can do. Keep the face,
to keep communication open, to keep these guys stand behind him,
and most of them have, by all intense, by all accounts,
you know, seemingly stayed there. But you can't go much
further with games like you had in Green Bay and

(10:29):
for most of Chicago and still keep the faith and
the trust of your teammates. And once you lose them,
that's really hard to get that back. Let's do this.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Let's get a quick pause. And I got a lot
more to get to with Johnny, including the Wolves meltdown
on the Friday night in Phoenix, and some games they
have up ahead, including the historically good Oklahoma City Thunder.
So much more with our guy Johnny Athletic. Later this hour,
Ben Lieber and Bonus Luigi to talk about the hottest
team in all of hockey. Louis will join at five.

Speaker 5 (11:10):
Friday Football fees in coming to Buffalo Wild Wings Mall
of America, PA Nordo. Alec Lewis live all morning, Get
you set for Sunday showdown. Doors open at eight, great food, drinks,
prizes including trade them shoot gift cards.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Detailscafe dot com. You recount Part two with Johnny Athletic,
and it looks like, at least in this room, we
got the branch around Brian Cafe in text lineback. We
appreciate the ongoing efforts of program director Chad Abbott to
get that done. And so we're working some kinks out
of a new system, but hopefully we'll be back to
relative normal very soon. So I will accept your texts

(11:47):
as long as it doesn't log me out. Johnny. Part two,
Let me quickly get one other Vikings question in this
is fairly aggressive. This tech. This comes in from Chris,
and you know, with the quarterback discussion obviously dominating everything rightly,

(12:08):
maybe we don't spend enough time on some other things.
Chris writes, I want to know why we have the
two worst safeties in the league and no one's talking
about it. We're happy for Hitman two hundred games with
my god, he and Mattelis can't tackle and can't cover,
pretty aggressive, But I will say, I don't you know,

(12:29):
safety is one of those positions we almost feel like, well,
if you don't notice them, maybe that's not a good
thing in this particular case, like are they making plays?
What are we thinking about our safety performance? Our secondary
performance maybe more generally, but our safeties.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really glad that you brought this
question up and that the texts are brought it in,
because I do think it is very easy and understandable
to pile on to JJ McCarthy fixate on quarterbacks.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Because it's that important.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
But one of the things we said coming into this
season was one of the reasons that JJ McCarthy was
in just an unbelievable spot to succeed as a young
player with very little experience, was that of everything around them,
including a big play havoc wreaking defense that was going

(13:17):
to keep opponents down, limit their possession, turn the ball
over and get the ball to JJ McCarty an advantageous positions.
And the Vikings defense has been solid. They've been okay,
but they haven't been anywhere near what they need in
terms of playmaking, especially on the back end that includes

(13:38):
Harrison Smith, Josh Mattelis, THEO Jackson, that also includes the
cornerbacks Byron Murphy Rogers outside of the one unbelievable game
against the Bengals, like, nobody is making any play when
they you know, when they forced us a punt, that's great,
but they they need more. And there were a couple

(13:59):
of throws that Jordan Love made on Sunday that were
really great throws in the face of pressure and blitzeing,
but that the ball hung up in the air a
long time and nobody in the secondary was able to
get close enough to break it up to make it
a contested catch even for some of these receivers that
allowed the Packers to move the chains. And so yes,
McCarthy is problem number one that the Vikings are dealing with,

(14:22):
but by no means is he the only issue here.
This defense has been very underwhelming and very mediocre for
a lot of the season, and they need to start
making plays to help their own quarterback and they're just
not doing it.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
Friday night in dayline Phoenix, there was a play and
you'll be able to tell me what the precise play was,
because I, for life of me no longer remember it.
But it was in the last i want to say,
within the last two minutes, a great hustle play by
somebody in a Minnesota uniform that had the bench emptying

(14:59):
onto the court and everybody was feeling like, oh, is
that the Ramdall play? Okay, we're going, well, what was
the play exactly? What did he do?

Speaker 4 (15:08):
It was just a loose ball, that's what it was,
flat down on the floor and away. Chris Finch called
the time out smartly, and it was to your point, Dan,
it was the most spirited that Wolves bench has been
all all year. And just like the vibes that were going,
it was it was. It was a great play by Ramballs.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
So you're feeling at that point like, hey, you know,
we're going to take care of business here. Phoenix is
not great, but they're hillaciously better than they have been
and we're fine, and then they end up blowing what
was it, eight point lead in the last fifty seconds
with a couple of misfree throws two horrific turnovers as well.
It's one game, We've been through this before. But it

(15:51):
was a decidedly awful meltdown, I thought, And it appeared
to me that the head coach was not particularly pleased
about it after the game either.

Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah, you know, and that and that's the whole thing, though,
Dan is like, for forty six minutes you said, hey, this.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
The Wolves are right in position to be for the
best win of the year, and they haven't won.

Speaker 4 (16:11):
They haven't beat you know, any good teams yet if
you want to put Portland in a fine but they
had played really well. They scratched and Claude played good
defense down the stretch and was brilliant for most of
the game. You're like, okay, here, step up in weight class,
and they really responded. But the biggest issue with that
law is that it really does lay at the seat

(16:32):
of their three most important people. Anthony Edwards missed two
free throws and had a really bad turnover. Julius Randall
had two awful turnovers, and Chris Finch should have had
Dylan Clark in the game defensively for the lass when
Colin Gillespie got the easy shot, and and so all
three of their big guys that they need to come

(16:54):
through in these situations all had the failures and and
so it's one of those game that they never should
have lost. Everything that could go wrong did And you're right,
it is just one game. But for a team that
is trying to show that it's not just a cupcake eater,
that it can actually win these good game, these close

(17:15):
games against good teams, that was a hugely disappointing meltdown
over those last fifty seconds coming thanks to their three
most important people.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Is that where I assume Conley wasn't on the floor
at that point, But is that a situation where at
some point you say, no matter what has happened before,
then we gotta get we got to get a pure
point guard back on the court.

Speaker 4 (17:38):
I mean it's possible, Dan, but I will tell you,
like watching that game, this was not a good mic
comedy game.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, he was struggling.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
And so in these instances, typically what you see is
the main goal is to get the ball in the
hands of your best player and make him put pressure
on the defense, get to the line, do whatever.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
And they did that well.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
They had the ball either in Anthony Edwards hands or
Julius Randall's hands every time on all of those possessions,
and on all of them, both of those guys failed.
So even if Mike Conley is out there, I don't
think the ball is in his hands, or if not,
for maybe a few seconds, and then he's gonna get
it to Ant, He's gonna get it to Randall. And
the problem is is that both of those guys turned

(18:23):
the ball over. Randall missed a free throw outside of
that forty nine second window, but like in the last
two minutes, and so it was a case of I
don't think that having Conley on the floor would have
changed the outcome because both of those guys would have had.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
The ball in their hands. Now would Jalen Clark.

Speaker 4 (18:41):
Have changed the outcome on the last possession, maybe, But
I just don't think that this is the case where
Conley would have saved that.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
We got sacked tonight there and then Oklahoma City there
is that that are those the next two?

Speaker 1 (18:54):
That's right? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (18:54):
So I mean no, sabonus tonight though, Yeah, and they
always play well there. It should be another one where
they win. But I mean Wednesday night before Thanksgiving against
those monsters and okay, see that is going to be.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
A big, big test, So I'll be down there for
that one, so we'll see how that hapens.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, they what is Oklahoma City now? Is it twelve
and one? I've left out five? And isn't the average
margin for victory bordering on like two or three of
the best all time regular season record teams as well?

Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah, they're just murdering everyone. Here's what I will say.
We have talked a lot about the Wolves having a
terrible or he's super easy early season schedule.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
I think they're like top five or four.

Speaker 4 (19:41):
Oklahoma City is one, so like they have had an
easy schedule, but it doesn't matter. I mean, they are
just destroying people. And they don't have Jalen Williams. There's
been a bunch of a bunch of games without Lou
Dort or you know, plenty of their other guys have
been in and out of the lineup, and they are
just a machine. They just keep rolling. So for a

(20:01):
team like the Wolves, who do it? Who does have trouble,
you know, kind of getting the ball at the floor
sometimes and getting into second actions on offense. Man, this
defense is gonna be ready to eat them alive. So
they're gonna have to bring everything they have.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
And they there's a good chance to end up with
two picks in the top ten in the draft next year.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
City Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah, they got a Clippers pick and they got another one.
I can't remember which one it was, but they have
two that, yeah, could be top ten. They there, I mean,
it's not unrealistic that they have the number one overall
pick after winning their second straight title. So it's just
it's insane what they've been able to do, the way
that they've been able to build it out, all of

(20:43):
the draft picks that they have at their disposal, the
young talent that they continue to find.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
I mean, they are heading.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
Shoulders above every other franchise in the league right now
in terms of the way that they're operating, and it's
it's pretty impressive to watch.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Even if you don't like.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah Shavee wopping around and you don't like to that.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
You cannot view the logic behind the way they're building.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
No, that's for sure, real quick too do you want
to explain to me the assininity of John Morant, for
whatever reason getting into some kind of a just just
did decide patrol or or or mock one of the
true consummate league professionals. Tell folks who are on have

(21:25):
not are not familiar with that story, what that's about,
and explain to me why.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, so Memphis played Dallas, Dallas. Sorry the other night
Memphis one Ja Morant was not laying. He was out
once again as he always is out. There was a
point where waiting the game, one of the Grizzlies players,
Santi Aldama, took a bit of a cheap shot at
Cooper Flag kind of grabbed his leg. It was a

(21:51):
dirty plague out a flag. Grant one out of it,
I think, and Klay Thompson kind of stood his defense
and and said, hey man, we can't be having it.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
He didn't try to fight him. He stepped up and
said knock that off.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
And after the game was over, joh came out and
started jawing at Clay, pointed his finger right in his
safe And I will say there is history between Clay
and the Grizzlies, going back to Clay's days in Golden state.
But you know, this is one of the reasons that
many people are down on John Morant right now is
that it just doesn't look like anything that anyone is

(22:25):
trying to tell him, and the way that he conducts himself,
in the way that he goes about his businesses sinking
in and like when you're in your street clothes and
you've been in street clothes for most of the last
three years and you're talking trash to one of the
great players of all time with four championships who.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Has always respected, you.

Speaker 4 (22:46):
Know, kind of the game and his elders and done
things the right way. Yeah, he'll talk trash, but you know,
when you're out, just stay out and don't inject yourself
into it. And it just really came off as poor
form and just kind of underscored some of the character
questions that other teams have about John Moranton about really

(23:08):
his future in this league.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Thank you for your flexibility today, Happy Thanksgiving and we
will talk to you soon. Thanks Johnny.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours and all the listeners
out there, and yeah, we'll talk to you next week.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Dan, Thanks much.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
It's a deal. John Athletic, John Krasinski kind enough to
join us. Lieber is going to join us in about
ten to fifteen minutes, Bonus Luigi to talk about the
hottest team in all of hockey. That's at five point thirty.
We've got plenty more Vikings talking points to get to.
Let's tackle another one, a juicy one when we return.

Speaker 4 (23:40):
Time now for the Vikings Report on the Fan, presented
by Miller Lte.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Vikings wide receiver Adam Thielend joins Denver Reroom, mixt man.

Speaker 5 (23:59):
It rubs US Fotball season, Bell Banks giving one kfan
listener each week one thousand dollars to pay it forward
to charity of their choice. Just over kfan dot com
keyword contest to learn more today, Third and one McCarty
cafe dot com keyword contest.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
My best getting a little ahead of it chat as
I am want to do from timetime. We expect Lieber
in just a couple of minutes. Let's go ahead and
get to that Vikings talking point that I rudely interrupted
Brett blakemore with a bit on the early side. We
call it basically Mike Micah versus Christian darisod supposed to

(24:35):
be a pretty even matchup. Not so much at some
key times.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yesterday, McCarthy with DJ Hammond motioned to the right, goes
back to pass on first down pumps and sacked Michael
Parson's got him. Michael Parsons with his ninth stack this year.
Second of McCarthy today, mccuppy as the other. It's a
seven yard loss. Second is seventeen. McCarthy shot down three

(25:02):
receiving options to the lap. Now Huckinson in motion to
the right, joining Josh Oliver. We're going to fake a toss.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Right.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
McCarthy is attacked from behind by Michael Parsons, who ran
around Christian Darisol like he was tied to a post.
That's the second sack for Parsons, second and twelve for
Jane McCarthy from his own seventeen. Hockinson in motion to
the right, McCarthy clapping for the ball. All start, Darrisol,

(25:30):
all starts.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Johnson's my guardy checking out. I mean, this is this
is awful. It's the only way to put it. Yeah,
he's a PA's right. It was pretty much awful from
start to finish. And that's the kind of game where
you say, well, how much did the Packers give for
Micah Parsons, it wasn't enough. I mean, the value of

(25:54):
a defensive player who can be that devastating, who can
be that destructive to everything that you're trying to do offensively,
even if he's facing a big time left tackle through
some of it incalculable in the way this game is
played today, which of course tends to be about more

(26:15):
about offense than defense. Nacho Liber kind enough to join
us via the Connectico Water Systems hotline. Now Sierra Nevada
Brewing Company our fine sponsor of the liber segments. So, Nacho,
you've I'm sure talked about this, some thought about it
a decent amount. Do you believe is is there a

(26:39):
point at which, even if you believe in what McCarthy
represents and still believe in what he can't in what
he at some point can represent, that a player needs
to be taken off the field for a while for
his own, you know, mental health, or do you say,
if he's healthy enough, and we'll get to that part

(26:59):
in a minute. Nope, We're throwing them back in the
deep end week after week after week. That's the only
way we can get through this.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Well, you know, up.

Speaker 6 (27:11):
Until literally what two hours ago, I was thinking that
you just you got to let these guys go through it.
And you know, adversity is part of every sport, certainly
a part of playing quarterback, and it's not always pretty,
and you're not always loved and it's not always the
glory position that people think it is. I mean, there's
gonna be some hard times and I have thought, you know,

(27:34):
even though he is performing at historically low levels, that
you got to work through this. You know, you just,
more than anything, you have to see if your potential
franchise quarterback has the mental fortitude and the mental toughness
to lead the team. Once you start to figure out
the other things, you know, if it's the mechanical things,

(27:55):
it's the technique things, if it's like a mental processing thing,
wherever it is, it's kind of holding him back. You
kind of want to see these these other intangible leadership
qualities that that are very important to lead a franchise.
So yeah, I mean I was kind of in that
boat of like let him, let you know, work with him,
but you've got to let him work through it. On

(28:17):
the field, it.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Looks as if there's at least a chance that the
decision will be made by the doctors he is in
as you know, JJ's in in concussion protocol. And you
know how this works. The conspiracy theory starts early that well,
it's another example of is he really in concussion? Should

(28:40):
he really? Does he really need to be in concussion protocol?
Is this the Viking's own way, Koc's own way of
easing the pressure of, you know, forcing him to play
another week. I don't know what you'd heard last night.
I didn't think there was any indication after the game
that there were any issues, although I will say on

(29:01):
the scramble, and I can't s he's saying he thought
it was very late in the game, But there was
a scramble earlier where he ends up getting hammered pretty
good to the left, goes down hard and almost like
lays out and then got pulled up real quick by
a teammate if Ivan Hockinson. But I thought his reaction
on that play looked like he might have gotten a

(29:23):
hit a little bit or was was shaken up. Did
you have any indication last night that any of this
was going on?

Speaker 6 (29:29):
No, not at all, Dan, not a second. I remember
that play in real time and I was like, oh, yeah,
he got smushed pretty good. But you know, I wasn't
thinking concussion. It didn't look like a violent hit, you know,
where his he would suffer a concussion. And I know
that he doesn't always have to be violent. I certainly
have been a part of some of those where you know,

(29:49):
even a glancing blow when you're not really ready for
it can cause concussion like symptoms. But that to me
just looked like a ooh, like got it kind of
took your breath away a little bit, and and I
understand why Hawkinson just kind of picked him up and
it was like, you know, let's get back out there,
but you know, and kind of dust yourself off. You know,
I didn't see him, you know, even in the in
the clips, in the replays that we've seen now on

(30:11):
social media, it didn't look like he was woozy, wobbly.
It didn't look like he needed to take a second
to gather, to kind of gather himself. And so I mean,
I would have no idea that he was going through
what he is saying as a concussion. And you know,
certainly the independent neurologists that are at these games, that
are up in the booth watching these things, it wasn't

(30:32):
enough to.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Ring some alarm bells.

Speaker 6 (30:36):
Also, our own team doctors didn't didn't look like they
saw anything that was alarming as well. So it is
sort of shocking that this is all transpiring.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah, and and so if if ultimately he doesn't go,
what is realistic to expect of bros mur you know
how this is how this works. I honestly believe. Look,
I loved him as a college quarterback, I really did.
I thought he obviously showed something to make the team

(31:07):
as an undrafted free agent. And I'm not even here
to tell you he can never be an NFL quarterback.
But I am firmly of the belief, as much fun
as we've had on this show, because you know, guards
he's sort of liked the number one investor in Broseman
Brownstones that if he didn't, if he hadn't played here
at the University of Minnesota, seventy five percent of the
people who've been clamoring for him for like months would

(31:29):
not even have raised a peep to this point. So
what is realistic to expect of Brozemriff? And if indeed
he has to to, you know, to start against.

Speaker 6 (31:39):
Seattle, well it's it might be predicated on who's available
at the offensive line, you know. I mean, we've suffered
two injuries to the left side of our offensive line.
We don't know the injury updates there. Yeah, having brand
Dell in school out there to protect him, I think
is going to be something that you're going to have
to account for in the game plan. If that's the case,

(32:02):
you know, maybe maybe it really is just listen, get
the ball out and two progressions, two reads, and and
see if we can just make a little something run
after catch. I mean, it might just be quick game,
quick gameplay, action, take take, maybe a deep shot every
once in a while. But you got to be very
careful strategic as to not get him hit too much

(32:23):
because you know he's already your backup. You don't want
to go to your third stringer, which will be your
second stringer. And we keep saying this over and over again,
and we see, we see, you know, some larger glimpses
of it, and actually trends in the last couple of
games actually run the football with a lot of access.
So it does seem like if you're gonna give yourself
a chance, a fighting chance in Seattle, then you you

(32:46):
do have to run the ball and Brosemur is just
going to have to be very quick and he's got
a great quick trigger. That's the one thing that they
love about him is his quickness to decide and the
quickness at which the ball comes out. And you know,
obviously small samples from all of us, from Joe Public,
we like what we see Ala Brosmur. Let's just hope
that it looks like that when it's an actual full

(33:06):
game plan and in fly bullets the.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
When you watched McCarthy yesterday, is it, in your view
more of the same. Did you did you sense or
pick up something different yesterday, whether it was again you know,
fundamentals in terms of how he's throwing or reaction time,
or whether he's holding onto the ball too much. Was
there a common thread yesterday to the dysfunction.

Speaker 6 (33:33):
He yeah, I mean I do feel like he's holding
on the ball too much. I do feel like he
is missing and not anticipating guys to be open. You know,
when you go back and watch some of these routes
in which you know he's deeming as guys not open,
he's going to scramble or he's got a rush to

(33:53):
not not maybe take a sack. Our guys open, and again,
I don't know what the progression is. I don't know
who's one, who's three, who's four, Like I obviously know
where the checkdowns are, but there does seem to be
this overriding theme that he's not delivering the football as
these guys are coming out of breaks, and if he

(34:15):
does anticipate these throws, they are open. You know, KOs
is designing these things to be open, and it's got
to be frustrating when you're calling the right play against
the right coverage and the ball is not being delivered
on time when it's supposed to be and then he
goes out on other plays and takes unnecessary sacks. You know,
there are plays and game situations. I mean, the one

(34:38):
that was infuriating was, you know, I think it was
second ten at the end of the first half and
he goes out there. I think it was right after
he made that night's throw to Justin Jefferson the left
sideline where he takes a sack, like, yeah, you can't
take it at that moment, you know, thank good thank goodness.
We have a kicker with a great leg and a
lot of confidence. But he almost took us out of

(34:58):
field goal range. You gotta have better game awareness than
some of these, some of these deals, and it's it's
those little things that I think kind of take away
from sometimes, you know, a good throw or a good
series or oh my gosh, we kind of look like
we have something and we got a little bit of rhythm,
and then it's like one fatal mistake that kind of
ruins the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
You know, I'm curious to get your view on this,
because you play, You were in locker rooms, and you
can speak to this, obviously with a lot more authority
than we can the players. You know, justin Jefferson, he
mattell us everybody continues to say the things that I'm
sure organizationally they love. You know, we're standing by our guy.

(35:38):
We know it's going to take time, there's patience, et cetera.
But I tend to think these are human beings, and
so even if that's what they are saying and what
they want to believe, I gotta believe there's a wearing
effect eventually that has to be part of the decision
making process for any coach. The deal of actually losing

(36:01):
you know, other players, or even if again they're mouthing
every right cliche under these conditions, that they may well
feel differently internally, because I assume players are wired the
same way as everybody. They're ultimately about performance, right They
they want to see good performances around them, They want
to see they want the best chance to succeed as

(36:25):
a team, and that's all based on performance, not just words.
So how much are you concerned about that? Do you
sense any of it? And is it inevitable if these
issues continue to rear their head in the short term.

Speaker 6 (36:39):
I think that guys are they're willing to be reasonable
understanding that they were all once rookies before and you know,
you're all a first time player and we all know
that he's not a rookie, but you know he's essentially
a rankie. That of course there's patience, but like you said,

(37:00):
there is the human element of you know, you've seen
the metrics on some of these wide receivers and they chart,
you know, how far they run, how much max effort
they're giving. I mean, can you imagine running a couple
miles for a game and not getting the football ever
thrown to you and not feeling like there's a hope
that you're going to have the football thrown to you,

(37:22):
and then when it does, it might be so inaccurate
that it puts you in a dangerous position. You know,
I would think the human element. And again, I can't
run more than one hundred meters without getting tired and
wanting to take a long break. I can't imagine going
through a whole game where you're giving max effort to
break off these routes, to do all these things, to
you know, hand to hand combat with some of these

(37:43):
cornerbacks and then not get the football ever, or not
get it in an accurate spot. And I got to
make a tough catch, so I can I could see
how over time, when you don't see the improvement that
we think is reasonable, that you would lose a little
bit of that confidence. And I think that that is
just human nature. And you know, you couple that in

(38:05):
with the situation he's dealing with right now, and it's like,
come on, man, like you want to be you want
to be our guy. You got to be available. You know,
we all know the old adage. You know, you can't
make the club and the tub, and you got to
scrap and claw and do whatever you can to be
on the field, and it seems like he just keeps

(38:26):
getting banged up, and you can't make these improvements and
build that confidence when you're always on the sideline.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
That's a very fair point. I have no question. It
looked to me Leber like this was the first game
where there was a significant Koc adjustment in the way
he called it. And you can argue that until the
muffed punt, it was working at least to the extent
that they were staying in it right. They weren't in
a great position, but they were in it at that point,

(38:52):
and then that kind of changed. It felt like it
almost changed everything. And then they obviously couldn't move the
ball at all in the second half. But you know,
even in the types of path game that he was calling,
or past plays he was calling, and the number of
times even on third and short or second and short
where he was handing the ball off again, to me,
that's the furthest Koc has gone to adjust to the

(39:13):
realities in the short term of what he might be
dealing with to try to get his kid quarterback over
the hump.

Speaker 6 (39:20):
Yeah, I think he's done a nice job of again
the last couple of games, and then you know, leaning
more on the run game versus the pass game. And
I think there's you know, there's obviously some questionable, you know,
decisions as far as the play calling. You know that
don't love the Hawkinson, you know, third and third and
one direct snap, I mean, probably not the guy that

(39:42):
you know you're just going to get you that yard.
But as far as the philosophy goes, I mean, we
were definitely more run versus pass at halftime, and like
you said, it was working, and I think both teams
kind of took a similar approach, he says, of the
way the defenses can play, and so both sides really
kind of played a it was a boring brand of football,

(40:03):
but it's winning brand of football as long as you
don't turn the ball over and make the catastrophic mistake.
And that's what ended up happening in the second half.
And you know, I kind of alluded this to like
my feelings after the game that I'm more disappointed in
how the lack of response from the team when things

(40:23):
started to cascade downhill. And all we've heard from this
team ever since Koc got here is the word resilience.
We've been down in games before, but gosh, darren't these
guys are resilient. They fought back and we won this game,
and hey, against all odds, we overcame this. We're still resilient.
And then we have one special team's mistake. Two plays

(40:46):
later they score and you could just feel it like
it was it was almost over at that point. When
we look back into hindsight and you know, we go
two more drives on offense, we give up three sacks
on three three and outs and it's like, what is
going on? Like, how could how did you guys implode
so dramatically? I've never seen that from from Koc's team.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, that's a fair point. Liber Ben Leber is joining us,
we well might as well get to the hopsplash player
of the game. These are always harder, I think when
the team loses, but not impossible you because you know
it's occasionally somebody plays well or somebody grabs your attention.
Who is it gonna who's the lucky recipient this week?

Speaker 6 (41:31):
Well let's go with the guy that I I did watch.
I think a lot of people were watching when they
could on the TV screens to see how Ryan Kelly
was playing. You know, it's nice to have him back
in the lineup, and to me, uh, he looked like
he went out there and played without any reservations. I'm
sure that you know. He actually mentioned it after the
game that there was a couple of snaps early on
where it was like, you know, maybe kind of testing

(41:53):
the waters out subconsciously, but once you start running downhill
and having success, he was out there full blow or
full go, and and I thought he played well. They
did a lot of running to the right hand side
of that of that offensive line, and he's a big
part of that success. And I did not see any
major inside penetration on the pass rush other than maybe

(42:15):
you know, one Micah Parsons a gap blitz. I thought
he played really well, So let me give the the
hop splash player of the game to him.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Defense eventually also seemed to wither in terms of when
Green Bay just to side on that one drive, all
they did was hand the ball off and then they
said we'll settle for the three. But I also feel like,
you know, when an offense is sputtering to the degree
that the Vikings was sputtering again that offense that it does,

(42:47):
I know it's also to matter, but I think it
kind of reduced to almost zero, the margin for error
or of the defense. I still have problems with the
fact that they can't seem to get some takeaways, right.
You got to get that at some point. But I
think the entire team gets dragged down a little bit
when you're talking about that sort of performance offensively with

(43:09):
your quarterback playing at that level. I refuse to believe.
I think it affects everybody, whether it should or not.
What do you think, Oh, for.

Speaker 6 (43:16):
Sure it does. You know, yes, again, you know, I
remember lots of times when we were defensively, sitting on
the bench, We're trying to get a little rest, a
little water, and you look up and it's already, you know,
second and twelve after our negative play on first down.
Then you see a sack and you're like, then you know,

(43:36):
on the sideline it's yelling punt team ready, and you're like,
she's really already. We got to go back out there,
And then you just see how they're not able to
move to football. Yeah, it's it is sort of a
hopeless feeling, and you do your best to be like,
all right, guys, at the games games on us, we
got to pick up our offense. You try your best,

(43:57):
and when the other team is this, they're patient, they're
grinding things out. It's it's not easy to get your
hands on the football because they're not throwing the ball.
You're getting worn down.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 6 (44:09):
It's difficult to stay in those moments and just say like, oh, well, offense,
offense will deal with offense. We'll we'll handle our job
over here. No, it's a team effort, and you know,
sometimes and a lot of times what happens over there,
you feed off of it and you try to block
out that negativity. But on the on the flip side,
when they have big plays and splashy plays and momentum

(44:31):
shifting plays, well, you bet you that we feel that too,
because that brings us some juice and energy. So it's
you can't you can't have it both ways. You can
be like, oh, you can only accept it when it's
great positive news, and we have to block it out
now it it pretty much permeates across the whole sideline.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
You know, it gets lost entirely, I'd say entirely to
a large percentage. Anyway. Through all this is the place, kicker,
I mean, I'm trying to think and project what several
Vikings teams, good ones might have been, like if they'd
had a kicker anything like your guy rikerd. I mean
he's absurd.

Speaker 6 (45:08):
Oh he's I mean everything I just said about the defense.
I mean that is the one thing that I will
give kickers so much credit for is they have to
be in their own headspace. You know, they're on the
sidelines too, you know, they're they're over there, they're feeling
the game ebb and flow, and they celebrate the big
plays or can they They probably can't. You know, they

(45:31):
have to be just so headstrong and when my number
is called and when I'm asked to go out there
and kick, I got to put all emotions aside and
just become this sort of repetitive machine that is the
kicking motion and just focus on what I can do.
And Yeah, I think that's that's really impressive that we
have a guy that is that is that professional, that

(45:55):
that talented and skilled and that confident. I mean, I
think it's hard to do, especially team that is is
on a losing football team right now, how do you.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
View obviously the division race is pretty much lost here
at this point from a Viking standpoint, But how do
you view, you know again, the Bears, You're still in first.
Now they gotta I think they play the Eagles this
week in Philly and then their schedule the rest of
the way, I think statistically is the toughest after having
a lot of you know, easy, the easiest part of
it of their last play schedule earlier. So who's the

(46:27):
team to beat in the division? I find hard to
believe it's still it would be the Bears. But is
it Green Bay, is it Detroit? Or what do you think?

Speaker 6 (46:33):
Now?

Speaker 2 (46:35):
You know?

Speaker 6 (46:36):
I I still think it's probably the Lions only because
they've been there, done that, even though the Bears Ben
Johnson has been there and done that. But it's different animal.
I think that when you're the head guy and you
you're in charge of sort of the mood going into
these these post postseason situations, I'd put my money on

(46:58):
the more seasoned team, and I think the Lions are
that season team, even though they they've got a lot
of chinks in their armor. I think I think the
Bears are rightfully number two. And as much as the
Packers just sort of systematically beat us down yesterday, I
still don't trust their lack of firepower on offense to

(47:19):
get in these into the into the postseason and really
make some noise. So I think the Bears they've got
a lot of weapons, and when you've got a quarterback
that can get out of trouble make plays at the
drop of a hat. I put them at number two
in Lions. The number.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Well, blare unhappy right here, you know, guards he's out.
He's in the Bahamas right now. So you've hurt Brett
Blakemore's feeling. Picked.

Speaker 5 (47:42):
The Packers win six games this year, so I think
I think we're okay, okay, there it is.

Speaker 6 (47:47):
Yeah, I don't really care about Brett's feelings.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
To be quite honest with you, I know it's not
high on your list.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
It's not really high.

Speaker 6 (47:55):
I mean really any I mean it's not I love him,
but the fact that he's a pack Chris fan. I'm
just kind of lumping them all in together. I don't
care about their feelings. I mean, they don't care about ours.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
Is Micah Parsons this good? Or was dar saw that bad?
And a couple of key plays or more more you know,
complicated than that, because it he certainly did. Micah make
his presence felt at key moments yesterday.

Speaker 6 (48:19):
Oh my gosh, No, he's he's that good, especially especially
when you see it up close with your own eyes,
You're like, wow, I've never seen as powerful and as
quick of a get off and a violent get off
that he has. I mean, and it's so impressive that
he doesn't doesn't ever seem like he comes off the field.

(48:42):
He can play with such a burst and I know
that he's probably not the strongest run defender, but you
make your money, uh, getting after the quarterback and causing chaos,
and he can do that, especially you know when they
line them up as a as a rusher in the
A and B gaps and he he's screaming downhill like
you see Blake Cashman and Eric Wilson and you get

(49:05):
that body type and that explosiveness running downhill along with
the other guys. And you know, now they have Lucas
van Ness back. I mean, that's a huge thing. I
think they will probably be talking about today is moving
you know Rashaan Gary now around a little bit more
and getting more out of him and putting him in
other situations because you know, he started off hot, but

(49:25):
it hasn't really done much and it hasn't been the
impact player that they've been hoping the last couple weeks.
And then you get Lucas van Nest back AND's a
really solid pass rusher, somebody you have to think about.
And then you get Micah Parsons that floats around. I mean,
that is a really really tough group. And yes he
is that good.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Yeah, that's that's a look. Certainly we're just saying, I mean,
the way the league is set up to just have
any defensive player or players who can be that disruptive,
you know, it's just you know, it's it's so unusual,
and I think that's why it stands out, why it's
so valuable.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
Right.

Speaker 6 (49:59):
Well, you know we I feel like we talk about
this every draft season, you know, every time the draft
comes around. I would much rather take a guy like
him or a guy like Saft Gardener, you know, like
give me a Micah Parson, yes, versus a Saft guard. Like, fine,
if if you want to, if you happen to fall
into the number one cornerback in the second round, great,

(50:22):
But if you're if you're asking me to use a
first round draft pick, I'm thinking defensive line. You know,
obviously on defense, but like if I'm saying defensive line,
Ed Rusher, find some guys that strike some fear in
the offensive line. And I guarantee you with every offensive
line that plays the Green Bay Packers, they have that
guy circle. They have a special package for him. They

(50:43):
probably have certain audibles for him because you have to
know where he's at every single stat all right, So you.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Know, the next game is Sunday in Seattle. Maybe brose Murran, oh,
I'll maybe, I'll ask it this way, what is your gut?
I mean, my gut is bros Is gonna start And
I don't know how bad this is, but I just sense.
I mean, if you go back, if you remember, And
again I'm not saying that that McCarthy was not injured
originally that original injury, but the same thing. I think

(51:12):
we talked about it the night of the game or
during the game. I don't even think there's any discussion
about him being hurt. And then he ends up being hurt.
So my gut is he's not going to play this Sunday.
What what's the so what's the KOC message? If I
guess either way, but especially if Brozemer is the QB,
it's a tough place to play. They're a damn good team.

(51:34):
You got Sam Darnald over there. What's the what's the
KOC message?

Speaker 6 (51:41):
Well, as I was saying that, I guess before, just
make make the quick decision and all live with whatever
happens after that, I think the last thing you can
do is hold on to the football, take an unnecessary sack,
potentially get injured, potentially create a turnover because you take
a you take a sack, and you happen to fumble
the football.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
I think it's just like.

Speaker 6 (52:00):
Designed some plays to get it out of his hands.
And maybe, you know, maybe he really is a savant.
They love him for the right reasons and he don't
have to pare down much. You know, maybe he comes
out and really surprises this because they seem to really
really like a lot of the things that he does.
And so, but going back to McCarthy, I would my gut,

(52:20):
my gut tells me in the in the concussion world
that we live in now, I don't see most of
the times. I rarely see a player go on the
concussion protocol list on a Monday and it's cleared by
And even with that being said, if we go back
to all the reasons why McCarthy couldn't come back from

(52:42):
Cinkle Sprain or or wouldn't be ready. They really want
that starting quarterback to get starting quarterback reps starting on Wednesday,
And if he's not going to be starting and getting
those first team reps on Wednesday, then even if he's
cleared by by Friday or Saturday, I I don't feel
like they feel confident that he can go out there

(53:03):
and execute the game plan at the highest level. So
my gut tells me he will stay in concussion protocol
the whole week, probably won't take any reps, and hopefully
be back by next week.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Thanks for the help as always, Happy Thanksgiving and save
travels back out west for the big one in Seattle,
and we'll talk next week.

Speaker 6 (53:25):
All right, sounds good to have a great Thanksgiving.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
Thanks Nacho. That's Ben Lieber, former Minnesota Viking, now of
course big time contributor on several programs on the fan
and sideline reporter slash analyst on the Minnesota Vikings Audio Network.
So we call it now right, not entertainment network. Isn't
it the audio network? The Vikings Audio Network? Correct? Van,

(53:51):
I've got some text to get to Ratchel on Brian
kafean text line which has now been rebooted and seems
to be working at six four six eighty six. That
are important to address us a couple of things I
need to get off my chest regarding the whole Brozmer
discussion and perhaps a bit of a misrepresentation of the
position of the host in that regard. And then we
will prepare for some hockey talk. Let's get some happy

(54:12):
talk going. Another day, another shutout for your Minnesota Wild.
When do we play next? Why are we back in
action soon enough? I want us to play every night
right now. Serious hot as we are. We'll get Louis
on all of that, and maybe even in his own
theory regarding the Vikings quarterbacks saga. That'll be about five
thirty years