MELTZER: From JFK To James Gunn

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My man, Brad Meltzer, I got lots I wanted to. Obviously,
we want to talk the JFK conspiracy, the secret plot
to kill Kennedy and why it failed, or at least
why one of them did, which I find you know
so extorted. I have so many questions about that. You
wrote it with Josh Mench. It's the new book, so yeah,
I'm with Stephanopoulos and it was great. It's just great

(00:21):
to see you, know, having known you this long, how
the tours they've only gotten bigger, the television appearances have
only gotten more plentiful. And I know what I'm I
just want you to know, Brad. I know what I'm
going to get because you know, I watched you answering
Georgia's questions and you're like, well, and Jackie plays a
big role, and I'm going to leave it at that,

(00:42):
and it's like, this is what he's going to give
me tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I know you for so long now, I know your history, Buff,
I know you love these JFK stories as much as
I do.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
This one's great. I mean, I don't know how a
story like this when it comes to a president who
you know, my mother was talking about that I lost
my mother a long time ago. I mean, she talked
about that day. Seeing that that, you know, the reverberations
across America. You know, this is wildly different than you know,

(01:15):
an assassination of a president like a Lincoln, which you
know predates you know, everyone for for the most part.
How there could have been one just a few years earlier,
an attempt to kill JFK. And he wasn't beefed the
hell up? Like, why was he in a begs the question, Brad,
why was he even in a convertible?

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, let's you know, we'll talk about that for sure.
I mean, why was he Not only was in a convertible,
but he was in a convertible three years after they
knew the closest attempt to ever kill a sitting president.
That's what the head of the Secret Service said at
the time. In the plot we talk about, this is
three years before Oswald happens, and there's a plot to

(01:57):
kill JFK. So of course, why would he be in
a convertible all those years later when they know that
they just dodged a bullet truly a few years earlier.
But I'm going to tell you, let me let me
go in order here so we don't confuse people. The
reason that no one knows the story in the JFK conspiracy.
Let's answer your first question is because and I'll paint

(02:19):
the picture real quick, is there's you know, it's a
beautiful Sunday in Palm Beach, Florida. JFK is heading out
to church. This is three years before Oswald pulls the trigger.
JFK comes out of his house, and you know, he
doesn't know that there's a guy who's about to murder him.
There's a man named Richard Pablick or a former postal
worker who's packed his car with seven sticks to dynamite.

(02:43):
And as JFK comes out, he doesn't know that public
followed him to Palm Beach, Florida because the security is
weakest there, which he's right about. And so as JFK
steps outside his house, all this guy has to do,
this assassin has to do is push a little trigger
mechanism and the dynamite is going to go off pal
And you know, again, I won't ruin the end like

(03:03):
you said, because it'll ruin the ending. What saves his life.
But why don't you know this story?

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Right, let's answer your question. The reason you don't know
it is because the story becomes huge in Florida. Obviously,
it's the biggest story that they've got. And the next
day it takes, you know, a couple of days for
things to go nationwide back then, and so it's about
to go nationwide. But on the day it's about to
go nationwide, two planes smash into each other above New
York City. Everyone dies on board except for one kid

(03:33):
who is the sole survivor, and this one kid becomes
America's obsession. They all want to know what happened to
the boy, and as a result, this story about JFK,
instead of being on the front page, gets buried into
the middle pages of the newspaper, and as a result,
it becomes a footnote to history. Until Josh mentioned and
I are like, wait a minute, we need to tell

(03:53):
people this story.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Do you think that was really the case, Brad or
the call was made to not pay a nation beerying
something like that seems crazy as extraordinary historias that one
is of the boys surviving. But then again, Kennedy, and
I loved what you said about Camelot in general, I
felt kind of the same way. I suppose the clip
is everywhere you with George Stephanopolis, but so shrouded in secrecy.

(04:20):
I mean, we never got motive necessarily as far as
Oswald is concerned, Jack Ruby is concerned. Do you even
veer get in the vicinity of motive in your book
with this pabolic guy? And somehow I feel that important
to know.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
You see, I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Let's talk about.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
What he wanted to do. We know his motive. His
motive is clear. He hates JFK because he's a Catholic.
He was from Origini. He used to live in Massachusetts,
and in Massachusetts he hated the Kennedys because he thought
they bought their way in the power. He eventually moves
to New Hampshire. But let's paint the picture of what's
happening in nineteen sixty, because it's important. In nineteen sixty

(05:00):
the country is bitterly divide. I know it's titilating for
me to come on your show and say, hey, we
found a secret plot to kills JFK. Nobody knows about, right,
But there's a reason why we tell these stories. They
have to be important now, and in nineteen sixty it's
the closest election between Nixon and Kennedy. The close selection
of the twentieth century country is divided down the middle.
Whatever side you're on, you think the other side are

(05:22):
complete and utter morons. Does that sound familiar to you.
And basically there's two different groups of people. They hate
Kennedy because he's Catholic, and there's a group led by
Norman Vincent Peelee, the well known reverend and the reverend.
Billy Graham puts together a group of religious leaders who says,
you know what, we got to take out make sure

(05:43):
no one elects this guy Kennedy, because we don't want
a Catholic being president. It sounds silly now that the
Protestants would stand against it, but they did because they
would say back then that they don't know if Kennedy's
going to be loyal to these United States. They think
he's going to be loyal to the Pope. That's how
they saw it. As a result, they didn't want to
give him a shot. And at the same time, the

(06:04):
klud Kluck's Klan separately doesn't want Kennedy there because Kennedy's
the worst thing they can see, which is an immigrant.
They see him as an Irish Catholic immigrant. And when
you have two groups speaking out and telling you how
bad Catholics are and how they should never be allowed
in the White House, you can't be surprised when someone
gets activated. And Richard pablic this the postal worker, here's

(06:24):
those you know, gets activated and he's like, I got
to be a good American keep this Catholic out of
the White House.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, and it's another he acted alone.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Oh no, he does listen, he does act alone. I
mean there's no question about that. You can see in
his you know, in his letters and what he's writing
and where he is and even when he's locked up
on what happens to him, and you know, he's a
guy who thinks he's doing right for the country. And
you'll see his full motives. You'll see when I spoke
to the Secret Service, one of the things that you know,
I asked him about like the profile of a guy

(06:55):
like public, the profile of these people who try to
kill the president. And they fit into two categories, and
he they are either hunters or they're howlers. And a
howler makes a lot of noise. A Howler's you know,
screams I'm gonna kill you. I'm coming for the president,
but they rarely take action. A hunter is very different.
A hunter is usually very quiet, they don't say a word.

(07:16):
But that's who tends to pull the trigger. And if
you look at the assassins from who were successful, four
people have successfully killed the US president, and from Abraham
Lincoln to JFK the four men who did it, all
of them were hunters. Richard Pavlick in our book, is
a bit of a hunter. He thinks he's a hunter,
but he's also a bit of bit of a howler
and he opens his big fat mouth. I won't ruin

(07:37):
that part, but you know he basically he tells someone
is nefarious, plotty monologues too much and people hear it.
And what's and again, what saves his life is crazy
because it has to do with Jackie. Jackie is the
one who inadvertently saves him, but she has you know,
it's incredible, It's incredible when you see.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, it intrigued me. You know, you've been at this
a long time, so you know how to give the
right sound bites again, round with Brad A Meltzer. I've
been at what I've been doing so long, Brad, I
wanted to share with you. You know, I actually interviewed
I wish I could find it in my earliest days
JFK Junior John John when he launched his magazine George. Yeah,

(08:16):
or there was a hell of a conversation. You know,
they're just a fascinating So I loved it. Like I said,
I'll say it again, what you said about Camelot and
our fascination with it, I didn't. Necessarily I had sisters
who were fascinated by it. I wasn't. I wondered if
you were when you were a young man, or was
your wife, because you have a beautiful relationship. It seemed

(08:38):
like women were more fascinated with Camelot. That was my
take anyway, maybe than guys.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
No, I mean I was obsessed with it. I mean,
in fact, when I was researching the book, you know,
I was, I constantly was going, where does Camalot come from? When?
When did you know? We in this book, we show
you Jackie's the affairs that JFK had, you know, on
jack We show you what she had to go through,
you know, with Jackie when they get engaged. Some one

(09:04):
of Jackie's closest friends goes up to Jackie and says,
you know, jack loves women and tells her to her face,
he's going to continue cheating on you. This is what
she's got to deal with. And I kept thinking, why
they call us place Camelot, And you know, to me,
I was obsessed with that because Cay I would love
King Arthur, I love Camelot. Those stories always intrigued me.

(09:27):
And the reason they get what I finally figured out,
is they don't call it Camelot until after JFK actually dies.
It's after his assassination that I found out. Jackie granted
one interview to Life magazine. She brings the reporter and
he stays until after midnight. She's right in the interview
with him. She's recorrecting his notes. Can you imagine just
giving over your notes? But she tells him this exclusive story,

(09:51):
and she says, when JFK's back was hurting him, and
when he was alive and he was in the White
House and he was in pain, she would put on
this one record for him, this song that he loved
about a place called Camelop. And Jackie, in the beginning
of her career, was a reporter, so she was a
member of the press. It was hounded by the press,
but make no mistakes, she was a master of the press.

(10:12):
And she's the one who put that word into our lexicon.
She's the one who wanted to write JFK's legacy before
anyone else wrote that legacy. That's how she saw it,
and that's why we call it camelot today. Jackie is
the kind of the hidden weapon in this book. And
when you read the stories we have about her, Truly,
my wife said to me, like, these Jackie parties are

(10:33):
the best parts of the book.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, yeah, and I it wasn't it again? Was it
you who said he was on a plane when John
John was being born? He was JFK. He was on
a plane to Florida. He wasn't even there, was that?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I mean? Can you imagine if if my wife, if
my wife went into labor and was hemorrhaging and found
that I was on a plane headed to Florida, we
wouldn't be doing this interview because I would already be dead,
Like she would kill me, right, I mean, but JFK's
like nowhere to be found. In fact, when he when
when she earlier has a stillborn birth, and he's basically

(11:06):
off with some other woman and they're like, you, you've
got to get back to your wife. They have to
tell him, man, get back there. And you know, we
we were like do we tell these stories? But we
put them in there. There's multiple chapters about his affairs
and their heartbreaking. You know, they're they're you'll read them
and you'll you know, there are women who stay listen.
You know, I've never met anyone who would look at

(11:27):
you and you wanted to look back at the guy
just had what it took and and even and everyone
loved him. It was crazy because even a Secret Service
agents when they first got there, you know he's got
Eisenhower was very different. Eisenhower was a serious guy, would
follow the rules. JFK. Would come off the plane and
he won't go to the car. He'd bet he'd see
all these fans on the fence of the airport waving

(11:48):
at him, so he'd beline for the fans. Secret Services.
I know, we know that now, but Secret Service wasn't
used to that. That wasn't what Eisenhower did. That was
a fifties Eisenhower. JFK was the cool new sixties and
he did things differently. And when they get to Palm Beach.
You know, he sees the Secret Service or gardener in Florida,
but they're all sweating in their suits. So JFK goes

(12:09):
up to him and says, hey, man, what size shure
do you? Guy tells him a shirt size. JFK comes
out with one of his own shirts, gives it to him.
This secret Service guys has been gardening of less than
twenty four hours. He's already wearing the president's clothes. This
was not your dad's president, and he was doing things differently.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
And you know, that's an endearing one. He always came
off as a sort of unofficial member of the rat
pack to me, you know, and I don't necessarily mean
that complimentary. That story you share right there is endearing
the Catholic end of the equation. I can't wait to
dig into the JFK conspiracy because I remember, you know,
being raised Catholic, when I found that out at fourteen

(12:51):
years old, you know, in history class, being stunned that
that could be perceived as a bad thing and a
reason to targets, you know, I that was kind of
shocking to me. I didn't think that was the reason
so many people were opposed to him so interesting to
hear that that's what motivated Pavlic. Brad Meltzer. Before I

(13:12):
let you go, I know the book is on sale
hit bookstores yesterday, shop local, hit your RJ Julia, make
sure you support this book. But I need to know.
I think I already know the soup. What are we
doing about Superman? What do you think?

Speaker 2 (13:26):
I'm optimistic? Man? You saw the same trailer eyes.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
Are you closed to love that you tell you you love?

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Of course I did. I mean it's the best. I mean,
I love Crypto, I love Popcamp. But man, when he's
when he's guarding that little girl with his body and
shielding her from harm, that just melted me.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Well, no, you just said the main thing right there,
and I know you got to go. But you saying
I love that's where you and I are and I
have always been polar opposites. You would be a Crypto fan.
I wasn't. And yet when Crypto shows up and he
hands them the cape and says home, that got me. Brad.
I don't know. I didn't think Crypto would work for me.
I kind of trust Gunn James, Gunn, I trust him.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
I'm looking Yeah, of course he knows he's a fan.
He's read the he reads the books like us.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I'm fired up, Brad. Melts are always great reconnecting.
Can't wait to read the book The JFK Conspiracy in
book bookstores now, and we'll talk again soon. Yeah, thanks brother,
see him moment