July 27, 2025 • 22 mins
Jared Savage is an investigative reporter for the New Zealand Herald and has won more than a dozen national and international journalism awards, including being named New Zealand’s best reporter twice. He lives in Tauranga with his wife and children.
He began reporting in 2004 after completing a Bachelor of Communications at AUT and landing his first job at an Auckland suburban newspaper. Since then, he has covered major stories including the Samoan tsunami, Christchurch earthquakes, political scandals, mayoral controversies, and two Rugby World Cups.
Jared has reported on some of New Zealand’s most high-profile and controversial cases, including the Kahui twins, Scott Guy, and Chris Cairns’ perjury trial in London. More recently, he has focused on organised crime and the meth trade, highlighting its social and health impacts in his books Gangland and Gangster’s Paradise.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hean Gooday, Welcome to real life Tonight.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
My guest will tell you about a country with terrible
drug and crime problems involving Asian gangs and Mexican cartels,
murders and corruption and millions and millions of illicit dollars
swirling around the country is New Zealand. Our lovely land
has a dark side that I've been blissfully unaware of.
And my guest is author and award winning journalist Jared Savage.
(00:42):
Welcome Jared.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Good evening, John.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
How are you doing.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah, good man, Yeah, very good.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Jared's joining me by zoom from I imagine down the
Bay of Plenty somewhere.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Yeah, down Totigo where I live. So it's been a
beautiful day. Yeah, out in the garden and getting the
kids to bed, and yeah, enjoying conversation with yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Right, doing the types of things that all millions of
New Zealanders do, probably quite unaware that probably within a
couple of blocks or suburbs at least of them, there's
all these things going on. That I said I was
blissfully unaware of. But it's not quite true, because I
read your best selling book gang Land some years ago
(01:23):
and that shocked the socks off me. And you followed
that up with another book called Gangster's Paradise, and you've
just released a third book called Underworld, the New Era
of Gangs in New Zealand. So what is new about
the criminal gang scene.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Well, I think what we're seeing in the past few years,
off the back of you know, those earlier books, is
just a continual kind of escalation really the sort of
the end of the world, the drug trade, gangs, cartels,
Asian crimes and against it's showing no sign of abating.
(02:00):
In fact, you know, sort of our New Zealand's appetite
for drugs in particular, it seems insation. So just for
one week example, the police and the is scientists can
test the waste water to see how much meth amphetamine
or other drugs have been consumed on a weekly basis,
(02:23):
And for a long time we were sort of around
about the fifteen kilo kind of mark each week. That's
a conservative ish figure, but in the back end of
last year it figured more than doubled to nearly forty
kilos a week. And so this is happening at the
same time that the police and customs are doing a
(02:43):
great job making huge busts, you know, seizing more drugs
than ever before yet.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I mean half a ton at a time, and yeah, half.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
A ton at a time. So when I first started
reporting for the Heralds many moons ago, twenty years ago,
you know, one kilo of myth was a huge deal.
That was front page news. The smallest dealer on the
street would have, you know, ten times at in the
back of their car. Now we're talking one hundred, two hundred,
four hundred, five hundred, six hundred seven hundred kilo imports now.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And that's just the ones they're catching.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Those are the ones they're catching from. You know, I
wouldn't I wouldn't like to say that that's the biggest
because I think probably some of the biggest ones have
slipped through the boarder.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Well, I mean, if the wastewater is indicated, what did
you say about forty kilos a week.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Of myth being used? Yep, it's coming from somewhere.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah, that's right, and yeah, it's sort of you know,
we've got a it's a very it's a very big
issue facing this country because whilst you you know, many
of our listeners or you know, might not be using drugs,
might not even know somebody using drugs, it still as
a huge impact on our society. And it's intertwined with
(03:59):
lots of other sort of you know, social issues, poverty
and unemployment and you know, youth suicide, suicide thing, you know,
quite quite heavy kind of thing which you know are
not easy to solve.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Another thing that you write about and covering your book
is gang culture. And do you notice any shift, any
shift in gang culture in recent years.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Yeah, well, I guess the biggest the biggest sort of
shift has been I guess back in the eighties and
early nineties, a lot of you know, you know, a
lot of gangs or established gangs that we would you know,
you recognize on our roads or around the places where
you live. We kind of almost a bit sort of
rag tag, scruppy, you know, leather were increasing here, kind
(04:48):
of motorbike kind of guys. And it's sort of evolved
in the past sort of five ten years into being
a lot more. It's that organized crime element which has
come in a lot. He's got a younger, good looking,
clean cat wearing wearing, you know, they go to the gym,
you know, they look good to got great clothing and
(05:10):
beautiful girlfriends and they're putting it all over Instagram, you know.
And so it's quite a quite a different, different shift
which is possibly ensune with with the wider kind of
society as well. But yeah, certainly the Australians call it
the sort of the Nike biky.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Culture and Nike bikey culture.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, and we've we've certainly experienced that shift. As you know,
a lot of the five oh ones have been deported
from Australia to here and it's all part of that
same sort of phenomenon which has really leads lead to
that escalation an organized crime that we've you know that I've.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
And you mentioned in your book with the five oh
ones are probably a bit more inclined towards gun violence.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, I think. I think even speaking to some some
gang members, they sort of think that currently we were
at in New Zealand is about seventy percent of what's
happening in Australia. And if you look at what happening
in Australia, there is you know a lot more execution
or sort of assassination style kind of hits. We've certainly
(06:17):
seen some of that in recent years here, you know,
don't get me wrong, Like New Zealand criminals and gamingers
have always had firearms and they've always used them or
had them in their possession, largely for sort of intimidation purposes,
I guess or protection. And what we've seen in the
last sort of five years is you know, more of
(06:41):
a pension for using them and that that's led to
you know, retaliation tip for tach kind of stuff. I'm
actually amazed that you know, more kind of innocent people
haven't been caught in the crossfire of some of these conflicts.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Well, you do mention in your book some of these.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Executions revenge killings, and they make your blood run cold,
and it makes it for a gripping read, but also
an unsettling read. Do you have bars on your windows
down there? I mean, I know that you'd probably know
why to alarm people, But is this something that we
should be actually factoring into our security or safety or
(07:20):
would you think that No, that's probably an overreaction.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
No. To be honest, I think most of this, you know,
getting conflict is largely confined to those who are involved
in it. So I don't want to you know, these
books and these stories shouldn't shouldn't. I don't people to
be scared or or feeling worried about their own sort
of personal safety. It's more of an awareness kind of
thing to you know. You mentioned at the beginning that
(07:45):
you know, often people are largely unaware of what's sort
of happening in our beautiful country. So you know, I
certainly don't want people to be putting bars up on
their windows. That's you know, it's something to be aware of.
And sometimes you might see a new story or something
happening in your in your neck of the woods, and
(08:09):
often these sort of the underlying underworld and the conflicts
there can be a reason for what people might be seeing.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Hey, this is your third book. I mean I was
amazed you could fill that first book with stories, but
this is your third book full of I've just basically
stories about these things that are that are happening, gritty
and gripping stories. Can you just, off the top of
your head pick a story that you think will give
(08:38):
people a taste of what your book's about.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Well, one of my favorites is probably not the right word.
But the one one that really kind of I keep
coming back to is how a US undercover agent for
the DEA so based in Texas, Houston kind of really
(09:02):
real then or falled some quite senior members of the
criminal underworld here, including quite a senior member of the
House Angels gang. And you know, they he purported to
be this undercover agent, purported to be a large drug supplier,
(09:22):
and you know, he was introduced to these guys and
really reeled them in and filled them with you know,
they thought they were going to be importing four hundred
kilos of cocaine into New Zealand. And there's all these
messages back and forth between the agent and the House
Angel about you know, about business and how they underworld
worked here, and he actually, you know, part of to
(09:44):
make the deal go through. They had a personal meeting
set up in Romania of all places, and of course,
you know it was a big It was all a
big sting, an elaborate sting, and the House Angel and
a few other people got arrested over there, and it
was just to me an example of a how global
(10:06):
organized crime is and nature not only for the criminal
sender gets and those working together to bring drugs in
and make money, but also how the DEEA was working
with the New Zealand police.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
We must be moving up a grade if the Drug
Enforcement Agency of the United States is taking an interest,
and I believe they've even got agents here. So if
you've just joined us, my guest tonight is Jared Savage,
and we're talking about his latest book, Underworld, The New
Era of Gangs in New Zealand that'll be released on
the twenty ninth of this month, and I've certainly been
(10:38):
enjoying going through it. I'll be talking more with Jared
about crime and gangs in New Zealand and that'll be
coming up after these messages.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Welcome back to real life.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I'm John Cown talking with author and journalist Jared Savage.
He's been with The Herald for more than twenty years
and his books have been best sellers. And Jared, congratulations
on your latest book, Underworld, The New Era of Gangs
in New Zealand. And it's got some fascinating stories and
one of them was a real success story. I thought
(11:08):
abandon his sixties, who had been a beneficiary all his life,
and yet he still managed to amass about six million
dollars and assets and things. That's a you know, that's
a real success story, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Well, yeah, that's one way of looking at it. The
High Court judge looking at the case ruled differently in
the end and all those assets were stripped and seized.
But yeah, quite an extraordinary tale.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But what it illustrates is that this law of it
they're applying I guess a bit more ferociously.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Now what's the law called again, it's.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
The Criminal Proceeds Recovery Acts. So it's a law that's
been around for about fifteen sixteen years now which allows
the police to seize assets or unexplained wealth. I suppose
that might have been accrued by suspected you know, greg dealers,
(12:06):
most often in New Zealand, is used for other crimes.
And I'm sure listeners world have seen stories about you know,
flash cars being towed away at the end of a
big police investigation, or houses seized, or gold bars or cash. Yeah,
there's there's certainly a lot of money and wealth being
accrued in the drug trade.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
And what it does, I guess is sting those people
that are in arms lenk away from the front edge
of criminal activity, but still benefiting from it. The masterminds,
the people pulling the strings so probably consider themselves pretty immune,
but they're getting done too. But the thing is, I
remember in your first book saying we can't arrest our
(12:49):
way out of this problem. It's not you know, we
need the enforcement. But that's not going to be the
end of the story of drugs in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Now that's right. I mean, we definitely need enforcement, and
we need we need strong enforcement and police and customs
and other agencies and work with them to do a
fantastic job. In the circumstances. It must feel like they've
got the finger in the dike at times, sort of
holding holding everything back. But I mean, really, you know
(13:21):
this is seen around the world, but the so called
war on drugs doesn't work from enforcement alone. We need
to be tackling not just the supply of drugs, but
the demand for it and helping those you know who
are struggling struggling with addiction or you know, the sort
of the environments that kind of just lead to perpetual use,
(13:43):
because it's it's very hard to break out of that cycle,
particularly if you're in an environment where you know, all
your friends and family are also using. So there's there's
a lot of evidence to show that, you know, a
lot of reports saying that, you know, New Zealand does
need to be investing more into you know, rehabilitation, counseling, support,
(14:07):
all those things that can make a big difference and
sort of because if you start, you know, if you
stop that demand like that'll have an effect on the
supply as well.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
One of the saddest things I think I've heard you
refer to is that in a town in the North
Island there were about two hundred people seeking help with
their drug problems and there just wasn't the resources to
help them.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Yeah, we've seen this a few times with different operations
where the police will come in and do a big
COVID job and lock everybody up, and then there's there
I mean, there's a there is a you know, an
awareness amongst the police and other agencies around when you
do that, when you come in and do a termination
and sort of take out a key supplier, there's a
window of opportunity to come in and help people who
(14:56):
who want to who want help them out, And that's
a key that's a key point. You need. People need
to want to get out of that sort of let
that lifestyle. But sometimes you know the resources aren't there,
well they're not there immediately, and then you know the
opportunity's missed, and somebody else comes in and feels out
(15:16):
that that came as a supplier. So I've seen that
a few times, and it's a very difficult and very
difficult problem resolved.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I love how you take the last pages of your
book to actually share the story of someone who did
break free, someone who had mentioned in an earlier book,
who actually did rise above it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And I think it's a it's it's.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Such a good story worth hearing. Do you want to
tell us a bit about.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Their names? Amelia was it?
Speaker 4 (15:50):
So? Yeah, So Camille was pardon. Camille was someone who
she got mentioned just very briefly as a throwaway line
in the second book and gagst is Paradise as someone
who was dealing drugs for the for the Mungl Rob.
So there was a whole chapter about the Mungl Mob
and then the White cut her and she had one
line in there, and she I got a phone call
(16:13):
up the book came out, and she goes, it's Camille
and I actually blanked and I said, oh, sorry, I'm
not I'm sure who you're referring to. And she said, oh, look,
you know we had a chat about her, you know,
her offending and how that was sort of mentioned in
the book. And she goes, I'm discussing because you know,
I've actually sort of turned my life around and I'm
working now as as a peer support worker in the
(16:35):
White Kallow so you know, you know, working alongside people
struggling through addiction herself and and I said, well, how
about I come and talk to you. And I interviewed
her for the Herald and we did a big story
about her, you know, her life, and it was a
real you know, the way that she sort of pulled
herself up with the help of her mom and dad
(16:56):
in particular, and just really turned the life around to
holp others was quite an inspiring story and quite I mean,
you know, I'm often it's a dark and depressing kind
of world that I write about, so this is a
real glimmer of hope. And it was important to me
to kind of share that that sort of message of
(17:17):
hope as well at the end of the book, because
you know, a little bit of uplifting. It's kind of
necessary after some hard reading, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I mean, it does shine after the dark, dark background
of the rest of the book. I mean, the book
is an entertaining read, but it could leave you of
a very dark, pessimistic view of New Zealand. Now you've
shared before that you're a Christian and a person of faith.
(17:48):
Have you met people for whom faith has been an
element in getting them out of the world of gangs
and drugs?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Oh? Absolutely, And you know I can't think an you
rite over the top of my head or well that'sort
of breaching their privacy as well. But yeah, yeah, absolutely,
And you know, again that hope that I talk about,
it's a big part of you know, my fath's journey
and and something that has sort of hold on to
because yeah, it's pretty pretty grim world out there. At times.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It sounds almost like a cliche of turning to God
and turning away from drugs, but it's it's it's not
something you're cynical about at all.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Oh well, no, it's no, because I've seen you know,
I've seen you know, I've seen that to be true.
At the same time, when I hear stories about you know,
sometimes I'm cynical that people are kind of using that
sort of faith convention as a as a way for,
you know, to get a more lenient sentence or to
sort of I mean, I'm always skeptical about it, but
(18:50):
when you meet people, you can you can soon pick
up as to whether or not they're trying to pull
the wool over your eyes.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Right, Okay, So that must be interesting sustaining faith in
both God and human beings, and also if you're journalistic,
cynicism and skepticism and critical gills.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
But it doesn't erode your faith at all.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
No, No, not at all. I mean it's sort of it's,
you know, a central part of my life and who
I am, and you can't sort of separate separate the two.
You can't leave it at the door when you go
to interview someone or and it's something that's yeah, I
mean I've seen some pretty horrific things in my time
(19:32):
just in the underworld, but you know, natural disasters and
things like that, and yeah, it's something that sort of
kind of keeps me, keeps me level headed and grounded.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Well, I know that journalists sometimes then you know that
it could be a dangerous thing for your nerves working
in journalism, and so you see that as being part
of your support network.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's you know, it's no secret that the
medias had gone through some pretty tough times.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, in the last last.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Few years, and you know there's been job job losses
sort of every and yeah, it's certainly a nerve shreading
time and yeah, but at the core of it sort
of yeah, I know that it's all gonna it's all
gonna end up all right.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Well, I'm encouraged that there are still journalists of the
sort of the I guess you'd call it an old
school model that actually goes goes out and does investigative journalism.
There can't be too many of your breed out there,
but I suppose God on the Herald for giving you
a bit of leash to do things like that.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, and it's not just myself. There are many others
got David Fisher and Matt Nippet and Caroline Menu and
and and lots of others around the different newsrooms as well.
So it's it is it's certainly getting harder with the
economic sort of reality of the media, but it's something
that The Herald's very you know, dedicated to to keeping
(21:01):
seeing people on board, to sort of dig a bit
deeper into things, and you know it's it's more important
than ever to have a functioning forth the state despite
all the economic pressure.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Right, yes, long may that continue in all power to
you doing that, And good luck too with this latest book,
it's coming out on the twenty ninth of this month,
look out for it. New bookshops Underworld by Jared Savage,
The New Era of Gangs in New Zealand. Just a
final question, what would you like your book to achieve?
I mean, apart from becoming a huge best.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Sellers of lots of book sales.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Would you like would you like it to budge people's
thinking at all?
Speaker 4 (21:40):
What?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I what?
Speaker 4 (21:41):
I kind of hope people would realize we're just to
have a read of it and sort of understand not
just the fact that there is a big problem that
we've got, but also some of the reasons as to,
you know, why somebody might join a gang, why someone
might sort of enter that world of drag dealing, and
not to excuse it, but to sort of just have
(22:01):
a bit more understanding, a bit more nuance, just to
sort of see the shades of gray. I suppose because shared.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I hope it certainly hope it does achieve all that,
And thank you so much for taking time to talk
to us. I'm John Cowen, looking forward to being back
with you next Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
For more from News Talk set B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hean Gooday, Welcome to real life Tonight.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
My guest will tell you about a country with terrible
drug and crime problems involving Asian gangs and Mexican cartels,
murders and corruption and millions and millions of illicit dollars
swirling around the country is New Zealand. Our lovely land
has a dark side that I've been blissfully unaware of.
And my guest is author and award winning journalist Jared Savage.
(00:42):
Welcome Jared.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Good evening, John.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
How are you doing.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah, good man, Yeah, very good.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Jared's joining me by zoom from I imagine down the
Bay of Plenty somewhere.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Yeah, down Totigo where I live. So it's been a
beautiful day. Yeah, out in the garden and getting the
kids to bed, and yeah, enjoying conversation with yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Right, doing the types of things that all millions of
New Zealanders do, probably quite unaware that probably within a
couple of blocks or suburbs at least of them, there's
all these things going on. That I said I was
blissfully unaware of. But it's not quite true, because I
read your best selling book gang Land some years ago
(01:23):
and that shocked the socks off me. And you followed
that up with another book called Gangster's Paradise, and you've
just released a third book called Underworld, the New Era
of Gangs in New Zealand. So what is new about
the criminal gang scene.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Well, I think what we're seeing in the past few years,
off the back of you know, those earlier books, is
just a continual kind of escalation really the sort of
the end of the world, the drug trade, gangs, cartels,
Asian crimes and against it's showing no sign of abating.
(02:00):
In fact, you know, sort of our New Zealand's appetite
for drugs in particular, it seems insation. So just for
one week example, the police and the is scientists can
test the waste water to see how much meth amphetamine
or other drugs have been consumed on a weekly basis,
(02:23):
And for a long time we were sort of around
about the fifteen kilo kind of mark each week. That's
a conservative ish figure, but in the back end of
last year it figured more than doubled to nearly forty
kilos a week. And so this is happening at the
same time that the police and customs are doing a
(02:43):
great job making huge busts, you know, seizing more drugs
than ever before yet.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I mean half a ton at a time, and yeah, half.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
A ton at a time. So when I first started
reporting for the Heralds many moons ago, twenty years ago,
you know, one kilo of myth was a huge deal.
That was front page news. The smallest dealer on the
street would have, you know, ten times at in the
back of their car. Now we're talking one hundred, two hundred,
four hundred, five hundred, six hundred seven hundred kilo imports now.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And that's just the ones they're catching.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Those are the ones they're catching from. You know, I
wouldn't I wouldn't like to say that that's the biggest
because I think probably some of the biggest ones have
slipped through the boarder.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Well, I mean, if the wastewater is indicated, what did
you say about forty kilos a week.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Of myth being used? Yep, it's coming from somewhere.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah, that's right, and yeah, it's sort of you know,
we've got a it's a very it's a very big
issue facing this country because whilst you you know, many
of our listeners or you know, might not be using drugs,
might not even know somebody using drugs, it still as
a huge impact on our society. And it's intertwined with
(03:59):
lots of other sort of you know, social issues, poverty
and unemployment and you know, youth suicide, suicide thing, you know,
quite quite heavy kind of thing which you know are
not easy to solve.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Another thing that you write about and covering your book
is gang culture. And do you notice any shift, any
shift in gang culture in recent years.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Yeah, well, I guess the biggest the biggest sort of
shift has been I guess back in the eighties and
early nineties, a lot of you know, you know, a
lot of gangs or established gangs that we would you know,
you recognize on our roads or around the places where
you live. We kind of almost a bit sort of
rag tag, scruppy, you know, leather were increasing here, kind
(04:48):
of motorbike kind of guys. And it's sort of evolved
in the past sort of five ten years into being
a lot more. It's that organized crime element which has
come in a lot. He's got a younger, good looking,
clean cat wearing wearing, you know, they go to the gym,
you know, they look good to got great clothing and
(05:10):
beautiful girlfriends and they're putting it all over Instagram, you know.
And so it's quite a quite a different, different shift
which is possibly ensune with with the wider kind of
society as well. But yeah, certainly the Australians call it
the sort of the Nike biky.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Culture and Nike bikey culture.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, and we've we've certainly experienced that shift. As you know,
a lot of the five oh ones have been deported
from Australia to here and it's all part of that
same sort of phenomenon which has really leads lead to
that escalation an organized crime that we've you know that I've.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
And you mentioned in your book with the five oh
ones are probably a bit more inclined towards gun violence.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, I think. I think even speaking to some some
gang members, they sort of think that currently we were
at in New Zealand is about seventy percent of what's
happening in Australia. And if you look at what happening
in Australia, there is you know a lot more execution
or sort of assassination style kind of hits. We've certainly
(06:17):
seen some of that in recent years here, you know,
don't get me wrong, Like New Zealand criminals and gamingers
have always had firearms and they've always used them or
had them in their possession, largely for sort of intimidation purposes,
I guess or protection. And what we've seen in the
last sort of five years is you know, more of
(06:41):
a pension for using them and that that's led to
you know, retaliation tip for tach kind of stuff. I'm
actually amazed that you know, more kind of innocent people
haven't been caught in the crossfire of some of these conflicts.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Well, you do mention in your book some of these.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Executions revenge killings, and they make your blood run cold,
and it makes it for a gripping read, but also
an unsettling read. Do you have bars on your windows
down there? I mean, I know that you'd probably know
why to alarm people, But is this something that we
should be actually factoring into our security or safety or
(07:20):
would you think that No, that's probably an overreaction.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
No. To be honest, I think most of this, you know,
getting conflict is largely confined to those who are involved
in it. So I don't want to you know, these
books and these stories shouldn't shouldn't. I don't people to
be scared or or feeling worried about their own sort
of personal safety. It's more of an awareness kind of
thing to you know. You mentioned at the beginning that
(07:45):
you know, often people are largely unaware of what's sort
of happening in our beautiful country. So you know, I
certainly don't want people to be putting bars up on
their windows. That's you know, it's something to be aware of.
And sometimes you might see a new story or something
happening in your in your neck of the woods, and
(08:09):
often these sort of the underlying underworld and the conflicts
there can be a reason for what people might be seeing.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Hey, this is your third book. I mean I was
amazed you could fill that first book with stories, but
this is your third book full of I've just basically
stories about these things that are that are happening, gritty
and gripping stories. Can you just, off the top of
your head pick a story that you think will give
(08:38):
people a taste of what your book's about.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Well, one of my favorites is probably not the right word.
But the one one that really kind of I keep
coming back to is how a US undercover agent for
the DEA so based in Texas, Houston kind of really
(09:02):
real then or falled some quite senior members of the
criminal underworld here, including quite a senior member of the
House Angels gang. And you know, they he purported to
be this undercover agent, purported to be a large drug supplier,
(09:22):
and you know, he was introduced to these guys and
really reeled them in and filled them with you know,
they thought they were going to be importing four hundred
kilos of cocaine into New Zealand. And there's all these
messages back and forth between the agent and the House
Angel about you know, about business and how they underworld
worked here, and he actually, you know, part of to
(09:44):
make the deal go through. They had a personal meeting
set up in Romania of all places, and of course,
you know it was a big It was all a
big sting, an elaborate sting, and the House Angel and
a few other people got arrested over there, and it
was just to me an example of a how global
(10:06):
organized crime is and nature not only for the criminal
sender gets and those working together to bring drugs in
and make money, but also how the DEEA was working
with the New Zealand police.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
We must be moving up a grade if the Drug
Enforcement Agency of the United States is taking an interest,
and I believe they've even got agents here. So if
you've just joined us, my guest tonight is Jared Savage,
and we're talking about his latest book, Underworld, The New
Era of Gangs in New Zealand that'll be released on
the twenty ninth of this month, and I've certainly been
(10:38):
enjoying going through it. I'll be talking more with Jared
about crime and gangs in New Zealand and that'll be
coming up after these messages.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Welcome back to real life.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I'm John Cown talking with author and journalist Jared Savage.
He's been with The Herald for more than twenty years
and his books have been best sellers. And Jared, congratulations
on your latest book, Underworld, The New Era of Gangs
in New Zealand. And it's got some fascinating stories and
one of them was a real success story. I thought
(11:08):
abandon his sixties, who had been a beneficiary all his life,
and yet he still managed to amass about six million
dollars and assets and things. That's a you know, that's
a real success story, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Well, yeah, that's one way of looking at it. The
High Court judge looking at the case ruled differently in
the end and all those assets were stripped and seized.
But yeah, quite an extraordinary tale.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But what it illustrates is that this law of it
they're applying I guess a bit more ferociously.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Now what's the law called again, it's.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
The Criminal Proceeds Recovery Acts. So it's a law that's
been around for about fifteen sixteen years now which allows
the police to seize assets or unexplained wealth. I suppose
that might have been accrued by suspected you know, greg dealers,
(12:06):
most often in New Zealand, is used for other crimes.
And I'm sure listeners world have seen stories about you know,
flash cars being towed away at the end of a
big police investigation, or houses seized, or gold bars or cash. Yeah,
there's there's certainly a lot of money and wealth being
accrued in the drug trade.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
And what it does, I guess is sting those people
that are in arms lenk away from the front edge
of criminal activity, but still benefiting from it. The masterminds,
the people pulling the strings so probably consider themselves pretty immune,
but they're getting done too. But the thing is, I
remember in your first book saying we can't arrest our
(12:49):
way out of this problem. It's not you know, we
need the enforcement. But that's not going to be the
end of the story of drugs in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Now that's right. I mean, we definitely need enforcement, and
we need we need strong enforcement and police and customs
and other agencies and work with them to do a
fantastic job. In the circumstances. It must feel like they've
got the finger in the dike at times, sort of
holding holding everything back. But I mean, really, you know
(13:21):
this is seen around the world, but the so called
war on drugs doesn't work from enforcement alone. We need
to be tackling not just the supply of drugs, but
the demand for it and helping those you know who
are struggling struggling with addiction or you know, the sort
of the environments that kind of just lead to perpetual use,
(13:43):
because it's it's very hard to break out of that cycle,
particularly if you're in an environment where you know, all
your friends and family are also using. So there's there's
a lot of evidence to show that, you know, a
lot of reports saying that, you know, New Zealand does
need to be investing more into you know, rehabilitation, counseling, support,
(14:07):
all those things that can make a big difference and
sort of because if you start, you know, if you
stop that demand like that'll have an effect on the
supply as well.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
One of the saddest things I think I've heard you
refer to is that in a town in the North
Island there were about two hundred people seeking help with
their drug problems and there just wasn't the resources to
help them.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Yeah, we've seen this a few times with different operations
where the police will come in and do a big
COVID job and lock everybody up, and then there's there
I mean, there's a there is a you know, an
awareness amongst the police and other agencies around when you
do that, when you come in and do a termination
and sort of take out a key supplier, there's a
window of opportunity to come in and help people who
(14:56):
who want to who want help them out, And that's
a key that's a key point. You need. People need
to want to get out of that sort of let
that lifestyle. But sometimes you know the resources aren't there,
well they're not there immediately, and then you know the
opportunity's missed, and somebody else comes in and feels out
(15:16):
that that came as a supplier. So I've seen that
a few times, and it's a very difficult and very
difficult problem resolved.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I love how you take the last pages of your
book to actually share the story of someone who did
break free, someone who had mentioned in an earlier book,
who actually did rise above it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And I think it's a it's it's.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Such a good story worth hearing. Do you want to
tell us a bit about.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Their names? Amelia was it?
Speaker 4 (15:50):
So? Yeah, So Camille was pardon. Camille was someone who
she got mentioned just very briefly as a throwaway line
in the second book and gagst is Paradise as someone
who was dealing drugs for the for the Mungl Rob.
So there was a whole chapter about the Mungl Mob
and then the White cut her and she had one
line in there, and she I got a phone call
(16:13):
up the book came out, and she goes, it's Camille
and I actually blanked and I said, oh, sorry, I'm
not I'm sure who you're referring to. And she said, oh, look,
you know we had a chat about her, you know,
her offending and how that was sort of mentioned in
the book. And she goes, I'm discussing because you know,
I've actually sort of turned my life around and I'm
working now as as a peer support worker in the
(16:35):
White Kallow so you know, you know, working alongside people
struggling through addiction herself and and I said, well, how
about I come and talk to you. And I interviewed
her for the Herald and we did a big story
about her, you know, her life, and it was a
real you know, the way that she sort of pulled
herself up with the help of her mom and dad
(16:56):
in particular, and just really turned the life around to
holp others was quite an inspiring story and quite I mean,
you know, I'm often it's a dark and depressing kind
of world that I write about, so this is a
real glimmer of hope. And it was important to me
to kind of share that that sort of message of
(17:17):
hope as well at the end of the book, because
you know, a little bit of uplifting. It's kind of
necessary after some hard reading, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I mean, it does shine after the dark, dark background
of the rest of the book. I mean, the book
is an entertaining read, but it could leave you of
a very dark, pessimistic view of New Zealand. Now you've
shared before that you're a Christian and a person of faith.
(17:48):
Have you met people for whom faith has been an
element in getting them out of the world of gangs
and drugs?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Oh? Absolutely, And you know I can't think an you
rite over the top of my head or well that'sort
of breaching their privacy as well. But yeah, yeah, absolutely,
And you know, again that hope that I talk about,
it's a big part of you know, my fath's journey
and and something that has sort of hold on to
because yeah, it's pretty pretty grim world out there. At times.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It sounds almost like a cliche of turning to God
and turning away from drugs, but it's it's it's not
something you're cynical about at all.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Oh well, no, it's no, because I've seen you know,
I've seen you know, I've seen that to be true.
At the same time, when I hear stories about you know,
sometimes I'm cynical that people are kind of using that
sort of faith convention as a as a way for,
you know, to get a more lenient sentence or to
sort of I mean, I'm always skeptical about it, but
(18:50):
when you meet people, you can you can soon pick
up as to whether or not they're trying to pull
the wool over your eyes.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Right, Okay, So that must be interesting sustaining faith in
both God and human beings, and also if you're journalistic,
cynicism and skepticism and critical gills.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
But it doesn't erode your faith at all.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
No, No, not at all. I mean it's sort of it's,
you know, a central part of my life and who
I am, and you can't sort of separate separate the two.
You can't leave it at the door when you go
to interview someone or and it's something that's yeah, I
mean I've seen some pretty horrific things in my time
(19:32):
just in the underworld, but you know, natural disasters and
things like that, and yeah, it's something that sort of
kind of keeps me, keeps me level headed and grounded.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Well, I know that journalists sometimes then you know that
it could be a dangerous thing for your nerves working
in journalism, and so you see that as being part
of your support network.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's you know, it's no secret that the
medias had gone through some pretty tough times.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, in the last last.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Few years, and you know there's been job job losses
sort of every and yeah, it's certainly a nerve shreading
time and yeah, but at the core of it sort
of yeah, I know that it's all gonna it's all
gonna end up all right.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Well, I'm encouraged that there are still journalists of the
sort of the I guess you'd call it an old
school model that actually goes goes out and does investigative journalism.
There can't be too many of your breed out there,
but I suppose God on the Herald for giving you
a bit of leash to do things like that.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, and it's not just myself. There are many others
got David Fisher and Matt Nippet and Caroline Menu and
and and lots of others around the different newsrooms as well.
So it's it is it's certainly getting harder with the
economic sort of reality of the media, but it's something
that The Herald's very you know, dedicated to to keeping
(21:01):
seeing people on board, to sort of dig a bit
deeper into things, and you know it's it's more important
than ever to have a functioning forth the state despite
all the economic pressure.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Right, yes, long may that continue in all power to
you doing that, And good luck too with this latest book,
it's coming out on the twenty ninth of this month,
look out for it. New bookshops Underworld by Jared Savage,
The New Era of Gangs in New Zealand. Just a
final question, what would you like your book to achieve?
I mean, apart from becoming a huge best.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Sellers of lots of book sales.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Would you like would you like it to budge people's
thinking at all?
Speaker 4 (21:40):
What?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I what?
Speaker 4 (21:41):
I kind of hope people would realize we're just to
have a read of it and sort of understand not
just the fact that there is a big problem that
we've got, but also some of the reasons as to,
you know, why somebody might join a gang, why someone
might sort of enter that world of drag dealing, and
not to excuse it, but to sort of just have
(22:01):
a bit more understanding, a bit more nuance, just to
sort of see the shades of gray. I suppose because shared.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I hope it certainly hope it does achieve all that,
And thank you so much for taking time to talk
to us. I'm John Cowen, looking forward to being back
with you next Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
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