November 16, 2025 • 23 mins
Jon became CEO of Consumer NZ in 2020. Jon has enjoyed a varied career in the consumer protection field, including roles as Assistant Privacy Commissioner, Head of Trust & Safety at online marketplace Trade Me and as a Senior Investigator at New Zealand’s competition authority, the Commerce Commission. Jon and his team also keep traders honest by calling out illegal or unethical conduct when it occurs.
Jon speaks regularly on consumer issues and is increasingly concerned with how dysfunctional market structures and muted competition in critical sectors are benefiting a small minority and delivering poor outcomes for the rest of society. Jon and his team are helping to harness the collective power of consumers to achieve this, before it’s too late.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Gooday, welcome to Real Life on John Cowen. My guest
tonight can't put extra dollars into your wallet, but he
can help you make the most of the dollars that
you do have to give you the maximum benefit. John
Duffy is Chief executive of Consumer.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Welcome John, Hi, John, It nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It's great to have you on the show. You've on
radio often, you're on the media, you're in the internet
all over the place serving us, and it's a great
job that you do. But one thing I was wondering
is what actually is Consume. Is it a charity, is
it a government institution? What is it?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
We've been both of those things in our time. So
we are currently a charity and an incorporated society, so
we were powered by our members effectively, but originally we
were Yeah, we were a government department, and when the
Ministry of Consumer Affairs was created back in the nineties,
(01:39):
we were kind of jettisoned from government and became our
own thing under the CEO at the time. David Russell.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Right, That's an interesting thing, isn't it That I can't
think of anything else that's sort of like that within
government circles that used to be part of the government
and now basically it's just a privately operated and you're
completely independent. You're don't have any government obligations or anything.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah. Yeah, we are completely independent. That's really really critical
to how we operate. Where we do. We work with government,
so we sometimes undertake contracts with government to deliver services,
but we are absolutely independent from government, which leaves us
free to criticism, to criticize government policy or to suggest
(02:30):
that government should be doing things that they're not, and
that you know, that's an important part of our role.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think that's an interesting relationship that you both work
with them and for them, but also hold their feet
to the fire. I've seen videos of you presenting petitions
and things, and I would have thought though to see
you walking up the steps of Parliament and be sort
of hiding in corners and things, but they actually give
you a fairly good reception most of the time.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah. I mean, we're politically neutral, so it doesn't matter
you know what political color that the government and power
is at the time, we will work with everybody the
benefit of consumers, so that tends to help us get
meetings that you know, consumers are voters and so it's
(03:18):
it really is in politicians best interests to at least
give us an audience and hear what what what people
are feeling on particular issues, because often it'll reflect what's
going on in their electrics as well.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
That'd be a great opening line to use of any politician.
Consumers are voters. Now, let's talk about what we've got
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Can you point to things where consumer has actually changed
things that government does does?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, well, there's let's talk about the supermarket space. That's
that's somewhere where we've poured a lot of time and
effort recently. And we understand that announcements were made just
today that penalties under the Fair Tract will be increased
(04:10):
from what they are currently for a business if you're
court breaching the Fair Trade Act. The maximum you can
be charged for offenses six hundred thousand dollars, which when
you compare it to other jurisdictions Australia for example, that
the same offense would be fifty million as its maximum penalty. Right,
that's a real meaningful deterrence. So we've been lagging behind
(04:32):
our other jurisdictions, but because of a lot of the
work we've been doing in the supermarket space, where you know,
most people listening will probably have had an experience where
they've been to a supermarket being charged a different price
at the checkout to what the product advertised on the
shelf was. And you know, those are each small individual
(04:52):
breaches of the Fair Trading Act. They've been going on
for years. The fines and penalties under the Fair Trading
Act are insufficient to convince the supermarket industry to change
its ways. We have been advocating for tougher penalties, and
as we understand it, those penalties are now government policy
and should be on their way. So that's that's one example.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
If we go on you well done, well done. I
saw that that an airline got charged. Is it two
and a half million and fines? Is that a different act?
Is that a different Fair Trading Act or something.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
That's that's cute, So that is the Fair Trading Act
as well, but that was multiple charges. We're just talking.
What we're talking about here is what you can be
charged per charge, per charge, what you'd find sorry, per charge?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yep, I get you, I get you. So how long
have you been in this role?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Coming up six years now, it's a while.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
And in that time, I guess consumer has changed a lot.
I know that we used to get a consumer magazine
through the post and but now most of the things
are online. But what else has changed in what you've
been doing?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Well, look, we still we're a bit weird. We do
still produce the magazine, so your subscriptions, that's something we
can help you with.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Subscribing. Where should gets it and hides it? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
We are a bit quirky and that we're still we
still stick with the magazine. But it's hugely popular with
our member base, and it's actually it's a really I
really enjoy the magazine because it's a it's a quite
quite a luxurious way to absorb the subject matter that
we're into. You know, you can sit down on a
(06:38):
Sunday with the magazine and a couple of cups of coffee.
It's been just a couple of hours going through it
and really absorbing the material in it. In a way
that you don't get when you're kind of skimming stories
on the internet. So it's it's it's a personal favorite
of mine. But by by far and away, the most
interaction we have with with the consumers of New Zealand
(07:01):
is through our website and through social media.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Now, yeah, I've seen lots of your social media and
it's very well produced, it's interesting, is a lot of
it's quite quirky, and you're getting a lot of messages
across and I'm just thinking the magazine will go to
your members, but the social media goes to everyone. So
as your primary obligation to your members or do you
just put this information out to everyone?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, that's a really good question. So we rely on
our members to keep going. That's you know, more than
fifty percent of our funding comes through people subscribing to us.
But you know, the people who subscribe to us have
you know, lots of people that I talked to their
purposes twofold. Firstly, they might want to buy a blender
(07:51):
or a vacum cleaner or a fridge or something like that,
and they want to know which one is best, so
that they've got an individual need and we can meet
that need. But also many people stick around once they've
bought the fridge or the blender or the vacum cleaner
because they can see what we're doing is in the
public interest, and so they're supporting us for our advocacy
(08:12):
for all consumers. And part of that is the advice
that we make freely available on our website. You don't
have to be a member. You can just head there
and learn about your rights under the Consumer Guarantees Act
or something like that, and we do it kind of
as a public service.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well, three cheers for consuming them, because you're not just
serving your members, you're actually serving everyone. So that makes
me proud to be a member. So that's great. I mean,
the s type of stuff you do. You're still doing
product testing and you send out spies and things into
shops to check that they're doing things right. And that's
(08:51):
the type of stuff you've been doing right from the
outset of consumer, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, that's right there. I mean that core work hasn't
really changed. In gosh, we are sixty seven's next year,
so we've been around for quite some time. And yeah,
the the idea that we would never we would always
go out and buy the blender that we're testing from,
I don't know, Briscoes or Harvy Normans or wherever his
(09:18):
stocking blenders, rather than relying on a manufacturer of sending
us that product, because you can never one trust that
you're not being sent a golden product that performs better
than those products that are just offered generally to the
consuming public.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Do you ever get manufacturers and businesses trying to twist
your arms or do you ever have them pushing back
and threatening your legal action for things you said about them?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Absolutely, it's an occupational hazard in our line of work.
But we have very very rigorous processes. Whenever we publish anything,
we will send a pre publication copy to the company
that the article is about, which often teases out problems
(10:05):
or any issues with how our testing methodology or any
of the conclusions before we publish. Provides you know that
that party that you know, a fair right of reply,
and we'll always publish within reason, you know what they've
said in response to any allegations that we're making. So
we do meet, you know, the normal media standards of
(10:27):
being fair and balanced in what we report. But yeah,
often we are undertaking work that is very inconvenient or
annoying to businesses because it's pointing out that there products
or services may not be the best in class.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
No, I imagine they shaken their boots at times. Well,
but good on you for doing it. And one of
the things I wonder about Consumer and and that is
that you can give me all sorts of information, but
the thing that I don't have is John Duffy's psychology
when it comes to making a purchase. I might have
all the data about its longevity and quality and and
(11:08):
everything else like that, and yet I might be swayed
by some fancy gadget or gizmo or something the flashist
and things, because that's my psychology. And so after the break,
I'd like to talk to you about how you make
decisions about purchasing and how we might make better purchases,
not just with the data, but with some of the
I think some of the ethics, because it sounds like
that you're a very ethical person, and as part of that,
(11:30):
I'd also like to find out a bit about your journey.
So this is real life on I'm John Cown talking
of John Duffy, who's the chief executive of Consumer. Will
be back with you in just a.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
Newstalk zb Flooding in the harbor, washed and shares, sweeping cars.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
This is real life on news. Stork said me, I'm
talking of John Duffy from Consumer and he's picked some
Phoenix Foundation. Is there a story that goes with this?
Why have you picked that for us tonight?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
John?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Look, I've been a Phoenix Foundation fan for many years.
But when I was thinking about what songs are good,
potentially there's a lot of pressure, I must say, to
pick good songs for something like this. But I was
thinking back on my son in his early years when
he was still just a wee lad in a high chair,
(12:38):
and we used to play this song and it was
the only one that would actually you could see he
would physically move to and it was like his first
interaction with rhythm. And you know, that's really stuck with
me over the years. So whenever I hear that song,
I think of it takes you back to me, my son,
And yeah, it takes me back.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Right talking about taking you back? Where about the your
journey start?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Were you?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Are you a Wellingtonian?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I am here being a big thanks Foundation Fan and
so yeah, have born and bred Wellingtonian, went to school here,
went to university here, lived overseas a week, but came
back to work here.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And so what has been your working career? I mean,
how does one end up working in consumer where you're
in the heart of sort of commercial stuff, but you're
not really a commercial person, are you. You're sort of
motivated by some sort of public spirited ethical thing. And
I just wondered where that came from and how you
(13:45):
shape that up over your working career. Where did you
start working?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
My first job out of university was at the Commerce Commission,
but actually prior to that, I put myself through university
working in a butchery a Preston's as a kind of
kind of medium sized butchery and Wellington that serves the
restaurant trade. And it's actually shut now, but yeah, used
to be kind of a mainstay of the restaurant trade
(14:11):
and retail butcher and Wellington and got a really really
I was studying law and doing an honors degree in
German and then working in a really kind of rough
and tumble environment and a butchery, and it was a
great juxtaposition of kind of academia versus real kind of solid,
(14:35):
working class grounding. And it was so beneficial for me
because I came out of law school going I actually
I don't want to go and work in a high
powered law firm. I actually want to do something. I've
seen enough. I've seen how the sausage was made. So
(14:56):
I went and got a job at the Commerce Commission
and started the answering phones, helping people with you know,
who are ringing up, kind of wondering whether whatever problem
that they had was something that the Commers Commission could
help with, and sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't.
So you've got to you've got a really good grounding
in all of the different agencies that people could complain to,
(15:18):
because you had to send them on to you know,
if they had a fencing dispute, you had to send
them off to a lawyer, if they had something to
do with their electricity bell, you have to send them
off to utilities disputes as it is now, that sort
of thing. So it was a really good way to
learn the ecosystem and kind of worked my way up
through the Commerce Commission and eventually you became a senior
investigator and moved from Fair trading into mergers and acquisitions
(15:43):
and started learning about economics and that sort of stuff. Yeah,
that's kind of how it all began.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So you know the systems pretty well from the inside,
but then you ended up as a sort of like
the sheriff on the wild frontier of commerce and trade me.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, that's right. That was a bit of a an
odd turn to take. But knew some people who were
working there and had had some interactions with a guy
called Michael O'Donnell who some people might know. He is
better known as Mod and he'd suggested that I should
come and join a team that he was evolving within
(16:23):
Trade Me to kind of keep the marketplace safe. And thought, okay, well,
let's let's give it a go. It's a bit different
and ended up being there for six or seven years,
and it was a fantastic experience. At that point in
time with trade Me that just kind of Sam Morgan
had just kind of stepped away and had sold to
fair Facts, but it hadn't listed on the stock change
(16:47):
at that point, and so that process is all ahead
of us. And yeah, watching that from inside was really
really interesting and I learned a lot, So yeah, it
was a good move.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I scanned through news slippings and things, things you've been
involved in, and You've got probably more entries than any
other person I've ever seen, because there were so many
the scammers, so many people selling duds, staff people selling
tickets that didn't exist, and people trying to sell pesticides
(17:17):
and soft drink bottles and things. And there's John Duffy
in there as the sheriff, not only defending trade Me,
but consent, defending consumers and sellers and things like this.
It must have been, It must have been. It was
almost seemed like the wild West of commerce, probably because
it's open to everyone. It must have it must have
(17:39):
had so many experiences there.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, a lernt an enormous amount, you know, this random
stuff that gets sold on trade Me. Like I know
more about bovine tuberculosis because you know, people will sell
a stockheard of cows and move them around the country
and that's you know that obviously there's veterinary health considerations,
(18:03):
or people sell chemicals that the potentially could be used
for bomb making, So you get to know the hearts
of the police that that monitor that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I believe the SI S were concerned about some of
the transactions that were going on, and they were wanting
to spot potential terrorist activities on trade me.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Well, that's right, and so the team that I ended
up running was involved in this vast array of different
things that most people would never even think about and
certainly would never associate with trade me. It was. It
was a fascinating role and I really it was. It
was one of the best gigs in New Zealand at
(18:46):
that time. Yeah. It was a very very enjoyable and
challenging role.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Right, and then you moved into another sort of a
wild frontier, and that is our online safety and privacy issues.
And these are sort of areas where I guess, as
people are growing up into the twenty first century, a
lot of us are sort of naive in these areas,
naive out the scams, naive about our privacy risks and
(19:12):
things and and and that's been sort of been That's
where you've sort of found your niche, isn't it sort
of protecting people?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah? I guess that's right. So yeah, So the next
the next job on the list was as Assistant Privacy Commissioner,
and that that was it was really interesting. It was
interesting going back into government after being away for so long,
So it was quite a culture shock coming from trade
me which was pretty you know, shorts and chandles to
work to back into a full suit with a tie.
(19:44):
You could still remember role, I could still remember. Yeah,
that was ingrained into me as a young man. But yeah,
it was. It was a bit of a culture shock,
but also intellectually, I kind of I guess, you know,
if you stay in any job for too long, you've
seen you've seen most things, and you start to slow
(20:05):
down a bit mentally. And I think going into the
role at the Privacy Commissioner really just got my brain
alive again. And I was having to learn an enormous
amount really quickly because I wasn't particularly a specialist in privacy.
I think I certainly got close to it by the
time I left, but it was a big learning curve
for me, but a fascinating one.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Of that. I'd love to be able to pick your
brains on how you make decisions about consumer consumer items.
I mean, when you're shopping for an item, do you
look at things like sustainability and environmental impact?
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah, definitely, and often more often than not, my decision
is to not buy something and to come back home
and see if we can get a few more years
out of whatever we were trying to replace. Sometimes that's
not possible, but you know, I am a reluctant purchaser.
(21:04):
I would say on most links. You know, keep keeping
things going for as long as you can to keep
the metal andfill is kind of the mantra we live
by in the family.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I sometimes wonder about the white ware industry in particular,
that designed stuff to need replacing and within about ten
years and everything that was produced in factories up to
about twenty ten is now sitting in a landfill somewhere,
and surely there's got to be a better way around that.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Oh one hundred percent. I probably make two points from there.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
We did a.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
We used to make a podcast to consumer, and we
did a experiment where we got five blenders, a mixtuer
of blenders and kind of kitchen mixes, and we just
we opened them up, we unplugged a small wire and
put it back together again and took it back to
the shop. So it was a fault that was you know,
anyone with a vague degree of expertise could look at
(22:01):
it and immediately remedy, right. So the products were perfectly usable.
They just needed the wire plugged back in, and we monitored,
We put trackers in them, and we monitored how quickly
well what happened to those items. And you know, there
was one big box retailer that had that item in
landfill within twenty four hours of us returning it. They
(22:21):
were great, they gave us a new blender, so they
absolutely met all of the legal requirements. But the fact
that it was uneconomical for them to have a specialist
on staff who just unscrewed the bottom and said all
that wise, unplugged and put it back in. It really
speaks to the society that we're that we will, I
(22:43):
guess the kind of the economic model that we're forced
to endure. If you wound that back fifty years, that
would never have happened. There would be a repair agent
that was available to fix that item for us. But
because it's quicker and cheap and more economical to just
give you a new one and throw the other one
(23:04):
in landfill.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
John, we've run out of time, We've gone wrong out
long before, I've run out of questions, So I think
we're going to have to get you back on again.
And I'm glad that you are on the media so
often because you're a great talker and you have some
interesting things to say. We'll go out on another track
that you've chosen, letter Box Lambs, which I must admit
I really enjoyed listening to. It's been a long time
since I've heard an indie band on said B. There's
(23:26):
a story here.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Oh look, this just takes me back to Wellington in
the early two thousands, playing playing in bands around town
and these guys probably one of the most underrated Wellington
bands of that era. And I reheard this album recently
and it took me right back and I loved it.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So its been share it fantastic talking with you and
I wish you were you and consumer all the best.
This is real life. I'm John Canda for you next
Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
For more from News talk S ed B, listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on IRT Radio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Gooday, welcome to Real Life on John Cowen. My guest
tonight can't put extra dollars into your wallet, but he
can help you make the most of the dollars that
you do have to give you the maximum benefit. John
Duffy is Chief executive of Consumer.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Welcome John, Hi, John, It nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It's great to have you on the show. You've on
radio often, you're on the media, you're in the internet
all over the place serving us, and it's a great
job that you do. But one thing I was wondering
is what actually is Consume. Is it a charity, is
it a government institution? What is it?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
We've been both of those things in our time. So
we are currently a charity and an incorporated society, so
we were powered by our members effectively, but originally we
were Yeah, we were a government department, and when the
Ministry of Consumer Affairs was created back in the nineties,
(01:39):
we were kind of jettisoned from government and became our
own thing under the CEO at the time. David Russell.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Right, That's an interesting thing, isn't it That I can't
think of anything else that's sort of like that within
government circles that used to be part of the government
and now basically it's just a privately operated and you're
completely independent. You're don't have any government obligations or anything.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah. Yeah, we are completely independent. That's really really critical
to how we operate. Where we do. We work with government,
so we sometimes undertake contracts with government to deliver services,
but we are absolutely independent from government, which leaves us
free to criticism, to criticize government policy or to suggest
(02:30):
that government should be doing things that they're not, and
that you know, that's an important part of our role.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think that's an interesting relationship that you both work
with them and for them, but also hold their feet
to the fire. I've seen videos of you presenting petitions
and things, and I would have thought though to see
you walking up the steps of Parliament and be sort
of hiding in corners and things, but they actually give
you a fairly good reception most of the time.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah. I mean, we're politically neutral, so it doesn't matter
you know what political color that the government and power
is at the time, we will work with everybody the
benefit of consumers, so that tends to help us get
meetings that you know, consumers are voters and so it's
(03:18):
it really is in politicians best interests to at least
give us an audience and hear what what what people
are feeling on particular issues, because often it'll reflect what's
going on in their electrics as well.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
That'd be a great opening line to use of any politician.
Consumers are voters. Now, let's talk about what we've got
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Can you point to things where consumer has actually changed
things that government does does?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, well, there's let's talk about the supermarket space. That's
that's somewhere where we've poured a lot of time and
effort recently. And we understand that announcements were made just
today that penalties under the Fair Tract will be increased
(04:10):
from what they are currently for a business if you're
court breaching the Fair Trade Act. The maximum you can
be charged for offenses six hundred thousand dollars, which when
you compare it to other jurisdictions Australia for example, that
the same offense would be fifty million as its maximum penalty. Right,
that's a real meaningful deterrence. So we've been lagging behind
(04:32):
our other jurisdictions, but because of a lot of the
work we've been doing in the supermarket space, where you know,
most people listening will probably have had an experience where
they've been to a supermarket being charged a different price
at the checkout to what the product advertised on the
shelf was. And you know, those are each small individual
(04:52):
breaches of the Fair Trading Act. They've been going on
for years. The fines and penalties under the Fair Trading
Act are insufficient to convince the supermarket industry to change
its ways. We have been advocating for tougher penalties, and
as we understand it, those penalties are now government policy
and should be on their way. So that's that's one example.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
If we go on you well done, well done. I
saw that that an airline got charged. Is it two
and a half million and fines? Is that a different act?
Is that a different Fair Trading Act or something.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
That's that's cute, So that is the Fair Trading Act
as well, but that was multiple charges. We're just talking.
What we're talking about here is what you can be
charged per charge, per charge, what you'd find sorry, per charge?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yep, I get you, I get you. So how long
have you been in this role?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Coming up six years now, it's a while.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
And in that time, I guess consumer has changed a lot.
I know that we used to get a consumer magazine
through the post and but now most of the things
are online. But what else has changed in what you've
been doing?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Well, look, we still we're a bit weird. We do
still produce the magazine, so your subscriptions, that's something we
can help you with.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Subscribing. Where should gets it and hides it? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
We are a bit quirky and that we're still we
still stick with the magazine. But it's hugely popular with
our member base, and it's actually it's a really I
really enjoy the magazine because it's a it's a quite
quite a luxurious way to absorb the subject matter that
we're into. You know, you can sit down on a
(06:38):
Sunday with the magazine and a couple of cups of coffee.
It's been just a couple of hours going through it
and really absorbing the material in it. In a way
that you don't get when you're kind of skimming stories
on the internet. So it's it's it's a personal favorite
of mine. But by by far and away, the most
interaction we have with with the consumers of New Zealand
(07:01):
is through our website and through social media.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Now, yeah, I've seen lots of your social media and
it's very well produced, it's interesting, is a lot of
it's quite quirky, and you're getting a lot of messages
across and I'm just thinking the magazine will go to
your members, but the social media goes to everyone. So
as your primary obligation to your members or do you
just put this information out to everyone?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, that's a really good question. So we rely on
our members to keep going. That's you know, more than
fifty percent of our funding comes through people subscribing to us.
But you know, the people who subscribe to us have
you know, lots of people that I talked to their
purposes twofold. Firstly, they might want to buy a blender
(07:51):
or a vacum cleaner or a fridge or something like that,
and they want to know which one is best, so
that they've got an individual need and we can meet
that need. But also many people stick around once they've
bought the fridge or the blender or the vacum cleaner
because they can see what we're doing is in the
public interest, and so they're supporting us for our advocacy
(08:12):
for all consumers. And part of that is the advice
that we make freely available on our website. You don't
have to be a member. You can just head there
and learn about your rights under the Consumer Guarantees Act
or something like that, and we do it kind of
as a public service.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well, three cheers for consuming them, because you're not just
serving your members, you're actually serving everyone. So that makes
me proud to be a member. So that's great. I mean,
the s type of stuff you do. You're still doing
product testing and you send out spies and things into
shops to check that they're doing things right. And that's
(08:51):
the type of stuff you've been doing right from the
outset of consumer, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, that's right there. I mean that core work hasn't
really changed. In gosh, we are sixty seven's next year,
so we've been around for quite some time. And yeah,
the the idea that we would never we would always
go out and buy the blender that we're testing from,
I don't know, Briscoes or Harvy Normans or wherever his
(09:18):
stocking blenders, rather than relying on a manufacturer of sending
us that product, because you can never one trust that
you're not being sent a golden product that performs better
than those products that are just offered generally to the
consuming public.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Do you ever get manufacturers and businesses trying to twist
your arms or do you ever have them pushing back
and threatening your legal action for things you said about them?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Absolutely, it's an occupational hazard in our line of work.
But we have very very rigorous processes. Whenever we publish anything,
we will send a pre publication copy to the company
that the article is about, which often teases out problems
(10:05):
or any issues with how our testing methodology or any
of the conclusions before we publish. Provides you know that
that party that you know, a fair right of reply,
and we'll always publish within reason, you know what they've
said in response to any allegations that we're making. So
we do meet, you know, the normal media standards of
(10:27):
being fair and balanced in what we report. But yeah,
often we are undertaking work that is very inconvenient or
annoying to businesses because it's pointing out that there products
or services may not be the best in class.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
No, I imagine they shaken their boots at times. Well,
but good on you for doing it. And one of
the things I wonder about Consumer and and that is
that you can give me all sorts of information, but
the thing that I don't have is John Duffy's psychology
when it comes to making a purchase. I might have
all the data about its longevity and quality and and
(11:08):
everything else like that, and yet I might be swayed
by some fancy gadget or gizmo or something the flashist
and things, because that's my psychology. And so after the break,
I'd like to talk to you about how you make
decisions about purchasing and how we might make better purchases,
not just with the data, but with some of the
I think some of the ethics, because it sounds like
that you're a very ethical person, and as part of that,
(11:30):
I'd also like to find out a bit about your journey.
So this is real life on I'm John Cown talking
of John Duffy, who's the chief executive of Consumer. Will
be back with you in just a.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
Newstalk zb Flooding in the harbor, washed and shares, sweeping cars.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
This is real life on news. Stork said me, I'm
talking of John Duffy from Consumer and he's picked some
Phoenix Foundation. Is there a story that goes with this?
Why have you picked that for us tonight?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
John?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Look, I've been a Phoenix Foundation fan for many years.
But when I was thinking about what songs are good,
potentially there's a lot of pressure, I must say, to
pick good songs for something like this. But I was
thinking back on my son in his early years when
he was still just a wee lad in a high chair,
(12:38):
and we used to play this song and it was
the only one that would actually you could see he
would physically move to and it was like his first
interaction with rhythm. And you know, that's really stuck with
me over the years. So whenever I hear that song,
I think of it takes you back to me, my son,
And yeah, it takes me back.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Right talking about taking you back? Where about the your
journey start?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Were you?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Are you a Wellingtonian?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I am here being a big thanks Foundation Fan and
so yeah, have born and bred Wellingtonian, went to school here,
went to university here, lived overseas a week, but came
back to work here.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And so what has been your working career? I mean,
how does one end up working in consumer where you're
in the heart of sort of commercial stuff, but you're
not really a commercial person, are you. You're sort of
motivated by some sort of public spirited ethical thing. And
I just wondered where that came from and how you
(13:45):
shape that up over your working career. Where did you
start working?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
My first job out of university was at the Commerce Commission,
but actually prior to that, I put myself through university
working in a butchery a Preston's as a kind of
kind of medium sized butchery and Wellington that serves the
restaurant trade. And it's actually shut now, but yeah, used
to be kind of a mainstay of the restaurant trade
(14:11):
and retail butcher and Wellington and got a really really
I was studying law and doing an honors degree in
German and then working in a really kind of rough
and tumble environment and a butchery, and it was a
great juxtaposition of kind of academia versus real kind of solid,
(14:35):
working class grounding. And it was so beneficial for me
because I came out of law school going I actually
I don't want to go and work in a high
powered law firm. I actually want to do something. I've
seen enough. I've seen how the sausage was made. So
(14:56):
I went and got a job at the Commerce Commission
and started the answering phones, helping people with you know,
who are ringing up, kind of wondering whether whatever problem
that they had was something that the Commers Commission could
help with, and sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't.
So you've got to you've got a really good grounding
in all of the different agencies that people could complain to,
(15:18):
because you had to send them on to you know,
if they had a fencing dispute, you had to send
them off to a lawyer, if they had something to
do with their electricity bell, you have to send them
off to utilities disputes as it is now, that sort
of thing. So it was a really good way to
learn the ecosystem and kind of worked my way up
through the Commerce Commission and eventually you became a senior
investigator and moved from Fair trading into mergers and acquisitions
(15:43):
and started learning about economics and that sort of stuff. Yeah,
that's kind of how it all began.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So you know the systems pretty well from the inside,
but then you ended up as a sort of like
the sheriff on the wild frontier of commerce and trade me.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, that's right. That was a bit of a an
odd turn to take. But knew some people who were
working there and had had some interactions with a guy
called Michael O'Donnell who some people might know. He is
better known as Mod and he'd suggested that I should
come and join a team that he was evolving within
(16:23):
Trade Me to kind of keep the marketplace safe. And thought, okay, well,
let's let's give it a go. It's a bit different
and ended up being there for six or seven years,
and it was a fantastic experience. At that point in
time with trade Me that just kind of Sam Morgan
had just kind of stepped away and had sold to
fair Facts, but it hadn't listed on the stock change
(16:47):
at that point, and so that process is all ahead
of us. And yeah, watching that from inside was really
really interesting and I learned a lot, So yeah, it
was a good move.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I scanned through news slippings and things, things you've been
involved in, and You've got probably more entries than any
other person I've ever seen, because there were so many
the scammers, so many people selling duds, staff people selling
tickets that didn't exist, and people trying to sell pesticides
(17:17):
and soft drink bottles and things. And there's John Duffy
in there as the sheriff, not only defending trade Me,
but consent, defending consumers and sellers and things like this.
It must have been, It must have been. It was
almost seemed like the wild West of commerce, probably because
it's open to everyone. It must have it must have
(17:39):
had so many experiences there.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, a lernt an enormous amount, you know, this random
stuff that gets sold on trade Me. Like I know
more about bovine tuberculosis because you know, people will sell
a stockheard of cows and move them around the country
and that's you know that obviously there's veterinary health considerations,
(18:03):
or people sell chemicals that the potentially could be used
for bomb making, So you get to know the hearts
of the police that that monitor that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I believe the SI S were concerned about some of
the transactions that were going on, and they were wanting
to spot potential terrorist activities on trade me.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Well, that's right, and so the team that I ended
up running was involved in this vast array of different
things that most people would never even think about and
certainly would never associate with trade me. It was. It
was a fascinating role and I really it was. It
was one of the best gigs in New Zealand at
(18:46):
that time. Yeah. It was a very very enjoyable and
challenging role.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Right, and then you moved into another sort of a
wild frontier, and that is our online safety and privacy issues.
And these are sort of areas where I guess, as
people are growing up into the twenty first century, a
lot of us are sort of naive in these areas,
naive out the scams, naive about our privacy risks and
(19:12):
things and and and that's been sort of been That's
where you've sort of found your niche, isn't it sort
of protecting people?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah? I guess that's right. So yeah, So the next
the next job on the list was as Assistant Privacy Commissioner,
and that that was it was really interesting. It was
interesting going back into government after being away for so long,
So it was quite a culture shock coming from trade
me which was pretty you know, shorts and chandles to
work to back into a full suit with a tie.
(19:44):
You could still remember role, I could still remember. Yeah,
that was ingrained into me as a young man. But yeah,
it was. It was a bit of a culture shock,
but also intellectually, I kind of I guess, you know,
if you stay in any job for too long, you've
seen you've seen most things, and you start to slow
(20:05):
down a bit mentally. And I think going into the
role at the Privacy Commissioner really just got my brain
alive again. And I was having to learn an enormous
amount really quickly because I wasn't particularly a specialist in privacy.
I think I certainly got close to it by the
time I left, but it was a big learning curve
for me, but a fascinating one.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Of that. I'd love to be able to pick your
brains on how you make decisions about consumer consumer items.
I mean, when you're shopping for an item, do you
look at things like sustainability and environmental impact?
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah, definitely, and often more often than not, my decision
is to not buy something and to come back home
and see if we can get a few more years
out of whatever we were trying to replace. Sometimes that's
not possible, but you know, I am a reluctant purchaser.
(21:04):
I would say on most links. You know, keep keeping
things going for as long as you can to keep
the metal andfill is kind of the mantra we live
by in the family.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I sometimes wonder about the white ware industry in particular,
that designed stuff to need replacing and within about ten
years and everything that was produced in factories up to
about twenty ten is now sitting in a landfill somewhere,
and surely there's got to be a better way around that.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Oh one hundred percent. I probably make two points from there.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
We did a.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
We used to make a podcast to consumer, and we
did a experiment where we got five blenders, a mixtuer
of blenders and kind of kitchen mixes, and we just
we opened them up, we unplugged a small wire and
put it back together again and took it back to
the shop. So it was a fault that was you know,
anyone with a vague degree of expertise could look at
(22:01):
it and immediately remedy, right. So the products were perfectly usable.
They just needed the wire plugged back in, and we monitored,
We put trackers in them, and we monitored how quickly
well what happened to those items. And you know, there
was one big box retailer that had that item in
landfill within twenty four hours of us returning it. They
(22:21):
were great, they gave us a new blender, so they
absolutely met all of the legal requirements. But the fact
that it was uneconomical for them to have a specialist
on staff who just unscrewed the bottom and said all
that wise, unplugged and put it back in. It really
speaks to the society that we're that we will, I
(22:43):
guess the kind of the economic model that we're forced
to endure. If you wound that back fifty years, that
would never have happened. There would be a repair agent
that was available to fix that item for us. But
because it's quicker and cheap and more economical to just
give you a new one and throw the other one
(23:04):
in landfill.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
John, we've run out of time, We've gone wrong out
long before, I've run out of questions, So I think
we're going to have to get you back on again.
And I'm glad that you are on the media so
often because you're a great talker and you have some
interesting things to say. We'll go out on another track
that you've chosen, letter Box Lambs, which I must admit
I really enjoyed listening to. It's been a long time
since I've heard an indie band on said B. There's
(23:26):
a story here.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Oh look, this just takes me back to Wellington in
the early two thousands, playing playing in bands around town
and these guys probably one of the most underrated Wellington
bands of that era. And I reheard this album recently
and it took me right back and I loved it.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So its been share it fantastic talking with you and
I wish you were you and consumer all the best.
This is real life. I'm John Canda for you next
Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
For more from News talk S ed B, listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on IRT Radio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!