January 25, 2026 • 23 mins
Patricia is a writer, anthropologist, and lifelong observer of faith, family, and belonging. Ordained ministry, grandparenthood, widowhood, and a remarkable return to university in later life have all shaped her unique perspective. After retiring from parish leadership, Patricia enrolled as a mature student in anthropology, completing a BA, Honours, and eventually a PhD, driven by a fascination with ritual, identity, and community. Her doctoral research, The Once and Future Cathedral, was profoundly influenced by the Christchurch earthquakes and the destruction of the Cathedral, an event that became both a personal and academic turning point. Patricia’s journey has taken her from Christchurch to Oxford and back again, weaving together grief, love, faith, scholarship, and resilience. She has had an extraordinary life story about reinvention, learning at any age, and finding meaning amid upheaval.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News talk EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yetay and welcome to Real Life. I'm John Cowen and
I'm going to be talking to my guest about her
long and remarkable life. She was born in nineteen thirty eight,
so there's a lot of life to talk about.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
But just a heads up.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Some of the topics we're likely to touch on tonight
involve sexual abuse and also suicide. And I feel sure
it will be done in a context that will be
sympathetic and helpful, but I know sometimes content like that
can press on bruises, and so if things are a
bit raw for you at the moment, do remember the
phone lines that will put you in contact with trained
(01:05):
counselors and they've been proven to help, and especially the
Need to Talk line one seven three seven a lifeline
eight hundred five four three three five four. If you're
not sure, just google Helplines New Zealand and you'll find
a list of different types of support line that you
can contact. And back in March twenty twenty one, the
(01:28):
three archbishops who lead the different parts of the Anglican
Church in New Zealand, the Pacific, the Maori and the
Pakiha houses of a Church made an unreserved apology admitting
that there had been abuse committed by people representing their
church and that their church had failed the people in
their care. And behind that apology and the other attempts
(01:48):
to set things right lay the courageous efforts of people
like my guest tonight, the Reverend doctor Patricia Allen, and
she was honored with an award in the New Year's
Honors list, an OENZDM for his services to survivors of abuse.
Reverend Allen, congratulations on your award.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Hello there, if I'm here, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Congratulations.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
I just had to cut them off.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, okay, yes, you're joining me on the line from
Christ Jude, so I hope, I hope the line stays clear.
But could I just say, knowing a little a little
bit about your life story, you could have received many
many awards over the years, but congratulations on this one.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
I'm not so sure about that, but certainly the sexual
misconduct stuff has been a long story over about forty years,
because I first started hearing stories in the nineteen eighties,
and I guess it's initially aluded by Miriam Saphira and
her work on sexual harassment sexual abuse, But then I
(02:51):
started hearing the stories and then we had got sometimes
have called our own Harvey Weinstein case at the end
of eighty nine, and so I became then an advocate
for the complainants in that particular case, and then to
work with the church over the years in trying to
(03:11):
deal with it. But it was really the Well Commission.
It focused the attention I think of the authorities and
the very real need to make changes.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Perhaps and of course that it's incredibly a shocking that
people in an environment that should be safe were abused.
But also shocking is the fact that the institution, the
church itself, didn't immediately respond as it should have done.
In fact, it obfuscated things that made the waters murky.
(03:44):
It made it difficult. And that's been part of your
research as well, hasn't it.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Well, that has been part of it, if you like.
The battle that went on and you know, to give
the church a little bit of credence. I think people
didn't understand at the time what actually was involved, and
there was some misunderstanding about understanding the power of clergy.
Clergy would tell me that they're not powerful, but they
(04:12):
are in very powerful situations, and it's the abuse of
power really that can lead to this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Okay, you went to.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
The church did initially in the early nineties send me
on scholarship to America to see how the American church
was stealing with this whole sexual harassment issues. And I
was just reading that the American law only changed in
the late nineteen eighties.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So so you brought back some of these ideas and
the things that you learned, but I believe it wasn't
entirely embraced. In fact, you got bumped out of a
position and you had been working.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I put in a position after some of the education
sessions that we had, and so that made my position
a bit later difficult. I think I've said it wasn't
a very good career move. Well, anyway, I really want
(05:21):
to emphasize that God is good and that out of
it all, I had a very rich experience in the
darm Street Methodist Church for six years, and so I
finished my active ministry.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
That's that's interesting that you sort of stepped sideways into
assisted denomination too. After things became what uncomfortable for you
and we were able to serve in a church in that.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Way, I became actually an unemployable for a bit and
you can set up so but I really don't want
to concentrate on that, because.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Well, let's concentrate on what's improved. What is better now
for people for the way that they face up to
these things.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
It has improved.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
There's a much clearer system, as much clearer training for
clergy and boundary training that's become essential for licensing, clearer
selection processes, I think.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And what about care for the people that have been abused?
Is that advanced?
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yes, I believe so in terms of recompense and things.
And I think church is still working with the Royal
Commission on sort of a separate recompense system as far
as I know, but I really have moved right back
(06:52):
from that now. I don't know exactly what they're doing. Well,
you're one of the things that has happened recently, and
which I had initially suggested, was that the ba a
liturgy of lament so that the church meanted what it's
the way they had acted over the years, and that
(07:13):
has happened in the christ Church's diocese, and I think
in other diocese we had we had this last year
that was Senate servers.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right for people that aren't Anglicans, I'm not too sure
that they might know what that means, but it is
a ceremony. You make a formal sort of a ceremony
to what.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
The it's a ceremony of la meant we're really sad
and sorry about what's happened, and we're seeking a much
better way ahead.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, one of the things that is very impressive over
your life story, and I recently heard a podcast where
you were talking about your life story, and I thought,
I'm really looking forward to talking to you. But the
half hour we have is not nearly enough, because you know,
your story goes back a long time. But the two
titles that you've got, the Reverend and the Doctor, the
(08:10):
two strands for your life, some of that goes back
a long time.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
And one of.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Them is obviously that you're a Christian. And that was
a definite decision or was it just a consequence of
growing up in a Christian family?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
How did you know it's a very definite decision. I
was thinking about this. When I was fourteen, I was
at a little youth group and there was a talk,
very simple talk about choosing or Jesus was you know,
I choose the pathway that leads to life. And so
that for me was a very definite choice.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
And so you could even put a date on it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yes, it was the second of August nineteen fifty two, right.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And so it sounds like you were very very definite.
And I also get the sense that you're a very
definite person. Once you set your mind to do something,
you do it.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Well, it seems like that, doesn't it is. I must
say that all the major decisions of my life have
been made very quickly, and I've never had any regrets
on that, and I personally believe it God's Holy Spirit
guarding me.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Okay, gosh, I could envy that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I mean, I agonize over decisions and then after I
make it, I think I'll measure I've made the other one.
But some of those decisions you made, Like one of
the decisions you decided to make was to go to
Pakistan as and to be a missionary.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
That sounds yeah. I've felt that sense of call when
I was still at school and so my career was
with that in view. And so when I was in
what they can now call year thirteen, I was tossing
up between teaching and nursing. Again, just by very suddenly
I decided on nursing. That straight I went into news
(10:02):
training and did miliwifery training in Edinburgh, and on the
way I I spent four months in Nazareth in Israel,
and I'd been brought up very much on the Zionist idea,
you know, this is God's will, this is the return
of God's to God's land. And it wasn't till I
(10:23):
was working with Arab people that I knew there was
a different story. And of course it's in the headlines
every day now, right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So I mean, you've just left across a huge amount
of story time. If we had three hours, we could
unpick some of that. But this idea of a missionary call,
I know that it's sort of like again Christian jargon
that they know what that means, But what does that
actually mean? Did you hear of boy so burning Bush?
What was it that made you think I need to
(10:52):
be a missionary?
Speaker 4 (10:54):
While I was at a youth camp and there was
a woman that had just returned from China because in
the Communism they were getting rid of people that were
doing Christian work in China. And she said over the firelight,
you know, it may be that God will call some
of you girls to be missionaries overseas. And I remember
(11:15):
walking away and everyone was going to be a missionary
because it was in an inspiring talk, and I remember thinking,
I know that I will. You know. It was again
that deep sense of calling right then and there.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So it's a sort of like not so much hearing
a voice or anything like that, just a certainty that
this is the way you're going to head.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yeah, this is the way, walk in it. This is
the oart of life that you've chosen.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Well Israel and then onto Edinburgh, I think you said,
to complete your training. Then was it back to New
Zealand for a bit more training.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
I went three year to the Bible College in Ordland
because by that stage I had been accepted by the
Church Missionary Society anglic and set up right. Yeah, And
then I went to Pakistan. I was there for three
years and I had to come home with it House's
problem and.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Now she was total.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
In the podcast, you mentioned that you that the cure
that was prescribed for you was to have a baby,
and I thought it was the most unusual prescription. But
I think after the break, I'd like to hear how
perhaps that that prescription was fulfilled. I'm talking to a
remarkable lady, the Reverend doctor Patricia Allen, recently honored with
(12:35):
an O n ZM for her work with survivors of
sexual abuse, but has also had a fascinating life in
all sorts of different areas. You've just been hearing about
one of them, working as a medical missionary in Pakistan.
I'll be talking to her more about her life in
the way that she makes remarkable decisions in a remarkable way.
This is real life. I'm John Cown and you Lyssington
(12:55):
News Talk.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
ZB intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Michael. Where someone to considerble have me.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Back to real life, and that of course is how
great thou art? One of the great anthems of Christianity.
My guest tonight, the Reverend doctor Patricia Allen. If you
were tuned in the first half, you hearing about the
work that she did with survivors of sexual abuse, but
also talking about the certainty that she had around different
aspects of her life, and she's chosen that song. It
(13:49):
speaks of her faith. And do you want to tell
talk a bit more about that song.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Yes, I'm thinking that I first hut it was a
schoolgirls camp on Huyle Island in Littleton Harbor, yep. So
that was a long time ago, fifty years or more ago.
And it's obviously been sung a lot over through the
years at various and various occasions. Seems to have become
(14:16):
a funeral song off in these days. And we certainly
sang it at my husband's school twenty years ago, and
then seven weeks ago he sang it at my son's funeral.
He he sadly jumped to his death just seven or
eight years weeks ago. It's got a lot of meaning
(14:37):
for me.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Well, you certainly have my most sincerous sympathy. I can't
imagine how much pain it must feel for a mother
to get the news that your son has taken his life.
And I think I'm just wondering. You know, you're a
person who has dedicated their life to service and to
(14:59):
following God, and that doesn't guarantee a smooth passage, does it.
You mentioned your father, your first husband death, and now
the tragic loss of your son, and I'm just wondering
what holds you together, what anchors you as you go
through these times of turmoil and grief and pain.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Well, I think you've given me warning that you're going
to ask me that I remember once preaching a sermon
when I was at Durm Street, responding to this idea
of why do bad things happen to good people? Or
you could say why do good things happen to bad people?
But I remember titling the sermon. Shit happens, but grace abounds,
(15:45):
and that's what I believe that through my life when
really difficult things have happened, and of course now my
sons are suicide outranks them all, really, but there's lots
of signs I received day by day that God is
with us, and God's goodness and grace will see us
(16:07):
through what is a very traumatic time.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And well, I certainly hope that you continue to receive
comfort from your faith and family. And you're also facing
a health challenge. It's I mean, it's great that you
get news of honors, but you've had some bad news
in the last year as well. I'm just wondering if
is there any disciplines, any strategies, anything that you use
(16:35):
in your life that just that that keeps your spirits
up and keeping you heading heading in the in a
good direction.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I've used over the years. I've used journaling a lot, yes,
books and books of journals, and that I've found that helpful.
I'm not a good person that you know, there's lots
of prayers lots of times, but are very much aware
of God's presence day by day. I go to huge regularly.
(17:09):
We're members of the cathedral and the Square. We were
members of the cathedral and the Square now the Transitional Cathedral,
and so I guess the daily sense sometimes meditation, Yeah, right,
(17:29):
pretty eclectic. I think now you.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Were a priest at a vicar in the Anglican Church,
and that would have been at a time when that
would be unusual for a woman to take a career
like that. Can you remember making that decision?
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yes, it happened in nineteen ninety We've forgotten the time
must have been eighty four, the vicar of We were
living in Hokatika and my husband was a forester and
I had four young children. At four and five years
(18:06):
after this advice to have child as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I am prescriptions filled there, Yes, yep.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
I was preaching a sermon on ordination, and I was
quite cross for them, and in my mind I thought,
for goodness sake, Robert, there's no eighteen year old young
men in the congregation. And coming out of the church,
I said to my husband, how would you like to
be the husband of the next vicar of ho Partica.
(18:39):
So again it was one of those sense of calls
and suddenness.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I'm sure that he had the sense to say yes,
because he'd obviously recognized the look in your eye when
you've made up your mind to do something.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
You always believed that, you know, something like that might happen.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Right when you retire went and I.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Was eventually appointed, as you know, I did the morning
and stuff, and I did it was all by correspondence mostly,
and then I was made the worker of Hokk and
I did that for three years. I was appointed to
a diocesan position which was a three year contract, but
(19:20):
it was terminated early, well the three years. But because
of my work, partly because of my work with abuse victims.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
When you did retire, and I find this very inspiring
when a lot of people would sit down to watch
the telly you decided to address something that you had
always wanted to do, and that was university. And so
this would have been in the sixties, when you were
in your sixties and moving on into your seventies.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Yes, Well, the year before I retired, I was thinking
what was I going to do? And my four children
were producing grandchildren very rapidly, and I decided I was
going to write a book for grandparents, you know, rituals
that would help sort of up a sense of family
for grandchildren. And I'd give myself three months off before
(20:17):
moving into that idea. But then after three months, my
husband was diagnosed with melanoma and he died fifteen months later,
and so well, it took me a while to get
over that. So I think it was about I've forgotten
the years now. But I decided again to look at
(20:39):
this book idea and realized I needed more academic background
for it. So I cold called at the university and
I looked at their calendar and it said that anthropology
was all about rituals and family and community and all that.
So I cold called and they told me that mature
(21:01):
students do well. They're not worried about their hairdoos or
their boyfriends. And then I graduated in twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, can I just say graduated for the first time.
You went on then to do honors and then graduated
with a PhD close to Ja.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
I graduated, and I was given a scholarship to do honors.
And in that year and another person came or a
person came back into my life. Man we call re
Peter Peter Helenon, and we fell madly in love within
about a week announced that we were going to get married.
We've known one another years before.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I noticed the pattern here again, that the decisions rapidly made.
So you fell and lived in love with him and
decided to marry for a week. I believe if your
first husband, it was after one meal he was proposing
to you. Yeah, well, no making around and you say
you don't regret.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
But anyway, my honors year was marked up. Shall we
stay with getting married halfway through? So I'd only done
half of it. And then at the beginning of twenty ten,
my sister invited me to go to add Least and
Peter didn't want to come. We had a housewarming because
(22:28):
we've bought a new house for us. We had a
housewarming and with the bull of family and my.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Patricia, I probably better cut you off there, because you
know what, we're crashing into the end of the hour.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
We've run out of time. My apologies were not steering you.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
To a course towards some of the questions that I
so much wanted to ask you about grandparenting, wisdom about
rebuilding the cathedral and all these other things that you've
had a key role in. It's been my privilege to
speak with Reverend doctor Patricia Allen this evening, and she
has contributed so much to the life of New Zealand
and her wisdom on grand parenting, her contributions to the
(23:10):
disbate about the cathedral, and also especially the work that
she's been awarded the o NZNM for her work with
survivors of sexual abuse. Doctor Patricia Allen, it's been fantastic
talking with you, and I wish you all the best
as you navigate your the pain of losing your son
and all the significant things you have ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Thank you very much, John, I've appreciate it and enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
This is real life.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I'm John Cown looking forward to being back with you
again next Sunday Night.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News talk EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yetay and welcome to Real Life. I'm John Cowen and
I'm going to be talking to my guest about her
long and remarkable life. She was born in nineteen thirty eight,
so there's a lot of life to talk about.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
But just a heads up.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Some of the topics we're likely to touch on tonight
involve sexual abuse and also suicide. And I feel sure
it will be done in a context that will be
sympathetic and helpful, but I know sometimes content like that
can press on bruises, and so if things are a
bit raw for you at the moment, do remember the
phone lines that will put you in contact with trained
(01:05):
counselors and they've been proven to help, and especially the
Need to Talk line one seven three seven a lifeline
eight hundred five four three three five four. If you're
not sure, just google Helplines New Zealand and you'll find
a list of different types of support line that you
can contact. And back in March twenty twenty one, the
(01:28):
three archbishops who lead the different parts of the Anglican
Church in New Zealand, the Pacific, the Maori and the
Pakiha houses of a Church made an unreserved apology admitting
that there had been abuse committed by people representing their
church and that their church had failed the people in
their care. And behind that apology and the other attempts
(01:48):
to set things right lay the courageous efforts of people
like my guest tonight, the Reverend doctor Patricia Allen, and
she was honored with an award in the New Year's
Honors list, an OENZDM for his services to survivors of abuse.
Reverend Allen, congratulations on your award.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Hello there, if I'm here, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Congratulations.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
I just had to cut them off.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, okay, yes, you're joining me on the line from
Christ Jude, so I hope, I hope the line stays clear.
But could I just say, knowing a little a little
bit about your life story, you could have received many
many awards over the years, but congratulations on this one.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
I'm not so sure about that, but certainly the sexual
misconduct stuff has been a long story over about forty years,
because I first started hearing stories in the nineteen eighties,
and I guess it's initially aluded by Miriam Saphira and
her work on sexual harassment sexual abuse, But then I
(02:51):
started hearing the stories and then we had got sometimes
have called our own Harvey Weinstein case at the end
of eighty nine, and so I became then an advocate
for the complainants in that particular case, and then to
work with the church over the years in trying to
(03:11):
deal with it. But it was really the Well Commission.
It focused the attention I think of the authorities and
the very real need to make changes.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Perhaps and of course that it's incredibly a shocking that
people in an environment that should be safe were abused.
But also shocking is the fact that the institution, the
church itself, didn't immediately respond as it should have done.
In fact, it obfuscated things that made the waters murky.
(03:44):
It made it difficult. And that's been part of your
research as well, hasn't it.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Well, that has been part of it, if you like.
The battle that went on and you know, to give
the church a little bit of credence. I think people
didn't understand at the time what actually was involved, and
there was some misunderstanding about understanding the power of clergy.
Clergy would tell me that they're not powerful, but they
(04:12):
are in very powerful situations, and it's the abuse of
power really that can lead to this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Okay, you went to.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
The church did initially in the early nineties send me
on scholarship to America to see how the American church
was stealing with this whole sexual harassment issues. And I
was just reading that the American law only changed in
the late nineteen eighties.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So so you brought back some of these ideas and
the things that you learned, but I believe it wasn't
entirely embraced. In fact, you got bumped out of a
position and you had been working.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I put in a position after some of the education
sessions that we had, and so that made my position
a bit later difficult. I think I've said it wasn't
a very good career move. Well, anyway, I really want
(05:21):
to emphasize that God is good and that out of
it all, I had a very rich experience in the
darm Street Methodist Church for six years, and so I
finished my active ministry.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
That's that's interesting that you sort of stepped sideways into
assisted denomination too. After things became what uncomfortable for you
and we were able to serve in a church in that.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Way, I became actually an unemployable for a bit and
you can set up so but I really don't want
to concentrate on that, because.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Well, let's concentrate on what's improved. What is better now
for people for the way that they face up to
these things.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
It has improved.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
There's a much clearer system, as much clearer training for
clergy and boundary training that's become essential for licensing, clearer
selection processes, I think.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And what about care for the people that have been abused?
Is that advanced?
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yes, I believe so in terms of recompense and things.
And I think church is still working with the Royal
Commission on sort of a separate recompense system as far
as I know, but I really have moved right back
(06:52):
from that now. I don't know exactly what they're doing. Well,
you're one of the things that has happened recently, and
which I had initially suggested, was that the ba a
liturgy of lament so that the church meanted what it's
the way they had acted over the years, and that
(07:13):
has happened in the christ Church's diocese, and I think
in other diocese we had we had this last year
that was Senate servers.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right for people that aren't Anglicans, I'm not too sure
that they might know what that means, but it is
a ceremony. You make a formal sort of a ceremony
to what.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
The it's a ceremony of la meant we're really sad
and sorry about what's happened, and we're seeking a much
better way ahead.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, one of the things that is very impressive over
your life story, and I recently heard a podcast where
you were talking about your life story, and I thought,
I'm really looking forward to talking to you. But the
half hour we have is not nearly enough, because you know,
your story goes back a long time. But the two
titles that you've got, the Reverend and the Doctor, the
(08:10):
two strands for your life, some of that goes back
a long time.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
And one of.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Them is obviously that you're a Christian. And that was
a definite decision or was it just a consequence of
growing up in a Christian family?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
How did you know it's a very definite decision. I
was thinking about this. When I was fourteen, I was
at a little youth group and there was a talk,
very simple talk about choosing or Jesus was you know,
I choose the pathway that leads to life. And so
that for me was a very definite choice.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
And so you could even put a date on it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yes, it was the second of August nineteen fifty two, right.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And so it sounds like you were very very definite.
And I also get the sense that you're a very
definite person. Once you set your mind to do something,
you do it.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Well, it seems like that, doesn't it is. I must
say that all the major decisions of my life have
been made very quickly, and I've never had any regrets
on that, and I personally believe it God's Holy Spirit
guarding me.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Okay, gosh, I could envy that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I mean, I agonize over decisions and then after I
make it, I think I'll measure I've made the other one.
But some of those decisions you made, Like one of
the decisions you decided to make was to go to
Pakistan as and to be a missionary.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
That sounds yeah. I've felt that sense of call when
I was still at school and so my career was
with that in view. And so when I was in
what they can now call year thirteen, I was tossing
up between teaching and nursing. Again, just by very suddenly
I decided on nursing. That straight I went into news
(10:02):
training and did miliwifery training in Edinburgh, and on the
way I I spent four months in Nazareth in Israel,
and I'd been brought up very much on the Zionist idea,
you know, this is God's will, this is the return
of God's to God's land. And it wasn't till I
(10:23):
was working with Arab people that I knew there was
a different story. And of course it's in the headlines
every day now, right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So I mean, you've just left across a huge amount
of story time. If we had three hours, we could
unpick some of that. But this idea of a missionary call,
I know that it's sort of like again Christian jargon
that they know what that means, But what does that
actually mean? Did you hear of boy so burning Bush?
What was it that made you think I need to
(10:52):
be a missionary?
Speaker 4 (10:54):
While I was at a youth camp and there was
a woman that had just returned from China because in
the Communism they were getting rid of people that were
doing Christian work in China. And she said over the firelight,
you know, it may be that God will call some
of you girls to be missionaries overseas. And I remember
(11:15):
walking away and everyone was going to be a missionary
because it was in an inspiring talk, and I remember thinking,
I know that I will. You know. It was again
that deep sense of calling right then and there.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So it's a sort of like not so much hearing
a voice or anything like that, just a certainty that
this is the way you're going to head.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yeah, this is the way, walk in it. This is
the oart of life that you've chosen.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Well Israel and then onto Edinburgh, I think you said,
to complete your training. Then was it back to New
Zealand for a bit more training.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
I went three year to the Bible College in Ordland
because by that stage I had been accepted by the
Church Missionary Society anglic and set up right. Yeah, And
then I went to Pakistan. I was there for three
years and I had to come home with it House's
problem and.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Now she was total.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
In the podcast, you mentioned that you that the cure
that was prescribed for you was to have a baby,
and I thought it was the most unusual prescription. But
I think after the break, I'd like to hear how
perhaps that that prescription was fulfilled. I'm talking to a
remarkable lady, the Reverend doctor Patricia Allen, recently honored with
(12:35):
an O n ZM for her work with survivors of
sexual abuse, but has also had a fascinating life in
all sorts of different areas. You've just been hearing about
one of them, working as a medical missionary in Pakistan.
I'll be talking to her more about her life in
the way that she makes remarkable decisions in a remarkable way.
This is real life. I'm John Cown and you Lyssington
(12:55):
News Talk.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
ZB intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Michael. Where someone to considerble have me.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Back to real life, and that of course is how
great thou art? One of the great anthems of Christianity.
My guest tonight, the Reverend doctor Patricia Allen. If you
were tuned in the first half, you hearing about the
work that she did with survivors of sexual abuse, but
also talking about the certainty that she had around different
aspects of her life, and she's chosen that song. It
(13:49):
speaks of her faith. And do you want to tell
talk a bit more about that song.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Yes, I'm thinking that I first hut it was a
schoolgirls camp on Huyle Island in Littleton Harbor, yep. So
that was a long time ago, fifty years or more ago.
And it's obviously been sung a lot over through the
years at various and various occasions. Seems to have become
(14:16):
a funeral song off in these days. And we certainly
sang it at my husband's school twenty years ago, and
then seven weeks ago he sang it at my son's funeral.
He he sadly jumped to his death just seven or
eight years weeks ago. It's got a lot of meaning
(14:37):
for me.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Well, you certainly have my most sincerous sympathy. I can't
imagine how much pain it must feel for a mother
to get the news that your son has taken his life.
And I think I'm just wondering. You know, you're a
person who has dedicated their life to service and to
(14:59):
following God, and that doesn't guarantee a smooth passage, does it.
You mentioned your father, your first husband death, and now
the tragic loss of your son, and I'm just wondering
what holds you together, what anchors you as you go
through these times of turmoil and grief and pain.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Well, I think you've given me warning that you're going
to ask me that I remember once preaching a sermon
when I was at Durm Street, responding to this idea
of why do bad things happen to good people? Or
you could say why do good things happen to bad people?
But I remember titling the sermon. Shit happens, but grace abounds,
(15:45):
and that's what I believe that through my life when
really difficult things have happened, and of course now my
sons are suicide outranks them all, really, but there's lots
of signs I received day by day that God is
with us, and God's goodness and grace will see us
(16:07):
through what is a very traumatic time.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And well, I certainly hope that you continue to receive
comfort from your faith and family. And you're also facing
a health challenge. It's I mean, it's great that you
get news of honors, but you've had some bad news
in the last year as well. I'm just wondering if
is there any disciplines, any strategies, anything that you use
(16:35):
in your life that just that that keeps your spirits
up and keeping you heading heading in the in a
good direction.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I've used over the years. I've used journaling a lot, yes,
books and books of journals, and that I've found that helpful.
I'm not a good person that you know, there's lots
of prayers lots of times, but are very much aware
of God's presence day by day. I go to huge regularly.
(17:09):
We're members of the cathedral and the Square. We were
members of the cathedral and the Square now the Transitional Cathedral,
and so I guess the daily sense sometimes meditation, Yeah, right,
(17:29):
pretty eclectic. I think now you.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Were a priest at a vicar in the Anglican Church,
and that would have been at a time when that
would be unusual for a woman to take a career
like that. Can you remember making that decision?
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yes, it happened in nineteen ninety We've forgotten the time
must have been eighty four, the vicar of We were
living in Hokatika and my husband was a forester and
I had four young children. At four and five years
(18:06):
after this advice to have child as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I am prescriptions filled there, Yes, yep.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
I was preaching a sermon on ordination, and I was
quite cross for them, and in my mind I thought,
for goodness sake, Robert, there's no eighteen year old young
men in the congregation. And coming out of the church,
I said to my husband, how would you like to
be the husband of the next vicar of ho Partica.
(18:39):
So again it was one of those sense of calls
and suddenness.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I'm sure that he had the sense to say yes,
because he'd obviously recognized the look in your eye when
you've made up your mind to do something.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
You always believed that, you know, something like that might happen.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Right when you retire went and I.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Was eventually appointed, as you know, I did the morning
and stuff, and I did it was all by correspondence mostly,
and then I was made the worker of Hokk and
I did that for three years. I was appointed to
a diocesan position which was a three year contract, but
(19:20):
it was terminated early, well the three years. But because
of my work, partly because of my work with abuse victims.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
When you did retire, and I find this very inspiring
when a lot of people would sit down to watch
the telly you decided to address something that you had
always wanted to do, and that was university. And so
this would have been in the sixties, when you were
in your sixties and moving on into your seventies.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Yes, Well, the year before I retired, I was thinking
what was I going to do? And my four children
were producing grandchildren very rapidly, and I decided I was
going to write a book for grandparents, you know, rituals
that would help sort of up a sense of family
for grandchildren. And I'd give myself three months off before
(20:17):
moving into that idea. But then after three months, my
husband was diagnosed with melanoma and he died fifteen months later,
and so well, it took me a while to get
over that. So I think it was about I've forgotten
the years now. But I decided again to look at
(20:39):
this book idea and realized I needed more academic background
for it. So I cold called at the university and
I looked at their calendar and it said that anthropology
was all about rituals and family and community and all that.
So I cold called and they told me that mature
(21:01):
students do well. They're not worried about their hairdoos or
their boyfriends. And then I graduated in twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, can I just say graduated for the first time.
You went on then to do honors and then graduated
with a PhD close to Ja.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
I graduated, and I was given a scholarship to do honors.
And in that year and another person came or a
person came back into my life. Man we call re
Peter Peter Helenon, and we fell madly in love within
about a week announced that we were going to get married.
We've known one another years before.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I noticed the pattern here again, that the decisions rapidly made.
So you fell and lived in love with him and
decided to marry for a week. I believe if your
first husband, it was after one meal he was proposing
to you. Yeah, well, no making around and you say
you don't regret.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
But anyway, my honors year was marked up. Shall we
stay with getting married halfway through? So I'd only done
half of it. And then at the beginning of twenty ten,
my sister invited me to go to add Least and
Peter didn't want to come. We had a housewarming because
(22:28):
we've bought a new house for us. We had a
housewarming and with the bull of family and my.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Patricia, I probably better cut you off there, because you
know what, we're crashing into the end of the hour.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
We've run out of time. My apologies were not steering you.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
To a course towards some of the questions that I
so much wanted to ask you about grandparenting, wisdom about
rebuilding the cathedral and all these other things that you've
had a key role in. It's been my privilege to
speak with Reverend doctor Patricia Allen this evening, and she
has contributed so much to the life of New Zealand
and her wisdom on grand parenting, her contributions to the
(23:10):
disbate about the cathedral, and also especially the work that
she's been awarded the o NZNM for her work with
survivors of sexual abuse. Doctor Patricia Allen, it's been fantastic
talking with you, and I wish you all the best
as you navigate your the pain of losing your son
and all the significant things you have ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Thank you very much, John, I've appreciate it and enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
This is real life.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I'm John Cown looking forward to being back with you
again next Sunday Night.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
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