February 8, 2026 • 23 mins
Greg is in his first term as the Member of Parliament for Maungakiekie. He serves on the Māori Affairs Committee and is Deputy Chair of the Petitions Committee. In March 2024, the members’ bill in his name, the Crimes (Increased Penalties for Slavery Offences) Amendment Bill, was drawn from the ballot, aiming to strengthen New Zealand’s response to human trafficking by increasing penalties for domestic trafficking offences to match those for international trafficking.
Born in Masterton, Greg attended Wairarapa College and gained a Bachelor of Commerce from Victoria University. A Chartered Accountant, he began his career in London finance and is a student of te reo Māori.
In 1998, Greg left accountancy to address family fragmentation, leading Parenting With Confidence (now Parenting Place) through significant growth. He later co-founded The Maxim Institute and became Chief Executive. With 25 years’ experience in the charitable sector, Greg has helped build enduring community institutions and was appointed CEO of The Parenting Place in 2015. He has lived in Maungakiekie since 1998, where he and his wife Kirstin have raised their five children.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News talk S ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You day and welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen.
It's not often that first term back bench MPs get
to make headlines, not for good reasons anyway. But my
guest tonight has welcome National MP for Monga Kirk Greg Fleming.
Welcome Greg. Sure, John, I'm glad you could make it.
The flight got in.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
On time, it didn't And now looking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Chat, right, okay, hey, looking forward to talking to you
about white tonguey, about slavery and about you. But first up,
your office burnt down?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
It did. I did quote that someone with was HQ
tested to meet the end of the last year that
I needed up my social media engagement. And so after
the burning office got one hundred and forty thousand views,
one of my colleagues that quit. But it probably wasn't
what HQ had in mind, but it did have worked.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Right, No, I let's ask you about the light of
fluid and matches in your pocket.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
But we got off very light. Actually, it's our poor
neighbors who who had it, and then the buildings adjacent
to them we had to close for sort of a
week or more while we put structures in place, but
got everything open well other than the other than the
destroyed building. Yeah, we've got everything open on Friday, and
(01:46):
then yeah, we won't be back and I'll be back
in my office for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Right, Well, I hope that you can still carry on
doing what you're doing out there. But Wednesday is going
to be a big day for you.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
What's yeah, well, yes, well, yes, it's actually Wednesday week.
It will be the first yep, that'll be the first
members day. So what would And that's the there's two
parts to getting legislation through and government or two two
different tracks. So the main one is obviously a government
legislative order paper, which dominates most of the time. But
(02:17):
then one day every basically about every three weeks, we
get a member's Day and for the first members Day
this year is going to be Wednesday week, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And going through and it's coming through in a slightly
different ways it is.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah. Yeah, So normally bills get onto that onto that
order paper through luck, so there's dozens of different bills
sitting in what is literally a biscuit tin and then
there's a lucky draw that it takes place every few
months to see whose next bill might get pulled out.
But about seven years ago, the Parliament at the time
(02:56):
decided they wanted to encourage the idea of working across
the House and so they came up with what is
known as Standing Order two eighty and it offered the
enticement of a few could get sixty one backbench MPs
to agree. And that number is important because it can't
include anyone who's an executive, so no ministers or under
(03:17):
secretaries can vote. And the only way you could get
sixty one would be to get a mixture of backbench
MPs from both the government backbench and from opposition parties.
And it's never been done before. And so yeah, for
the last of eighteen months, I've been working with my
friend Camilla Bellich, who's the Labor MPT this MP Boast
in Auckland, and yeah, at the end of last year
(03:40):
we both managed to get the approval of our respective
caucuses to have all of our backbench mp support it.
And then yeah, last week we were able to write
to the Speaker of the House, Greg Clark at the
House Froni.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Gregor was sounding like such a good story until you
said you had to go to your caucus to get
the approval, but from the people that aren't allowed to
vote on this, for the people that are allowed to
vote to vote on its am I right here, you're right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
There you are.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah. No, And this is the reality of the of
the whipped caucus system that we have at the moment.
So so caucuses take so parties take position on members bills.
So if if it's a backbenchure, you want to have
a bill put into the biscuit tin, you've you've got
(04:30):
to take it through your caucus. Now there's nothing in
Parliament that says that you had to have to do that.
But if you didn't do that, you wouldn't be a
member of your party for too much longer. So yeah,
so that they operate very much within teams. This has
been one of my many learnings these first couple of
years as a benefits term MP and so and then
so that therefore applies to something like this. The realistically,
(04:53):
the only way that standing order to ac was ever
going to be was going to be triggered was if
an MP from each of the major parties was able
to convince all of their colleagues to on mass supporter,
and that we were.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Able to do I suppose you have to do that,
or else you might be in the comfortable situation of
having your whole party vote against your own bill. But
tell us about that when we go to much further. Yeah,
tell us about the and how it came to be. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
So it's a bill that requires large companies in New Zealand,
and so we've bet to start work. We've set that
threshold at one hundred million dollars turnover to do an
annual audit of their operations and supply chains looking for
evidence of what we call modern slavery. And modern slavery
now is a pretty established term across the developed world
(05:42):
and includes all forms of exploitation and forced labor. And
so this is a requirement that most of our trading
partners have had for a little while. So New Zealand's
been quite an outlier in this regard. And so for example,
Australia has had it for about seven or eight years,
and the number of about three hundred of our biggest
companies in New Zealand already has to do this by
(06:04):
virtue of being owned by an Australian head off. And
so there's about another seven hundred companies at this threshold
that will then be required to do this. And the
whole point of it is to have companies looking keenly
for evidence of modern slavery so that they can eliminate
(06:24):
it from their supply chains, because the evidence from these
kinds of reporting regimes from around the world when they've
been implemented is that they actually, they genuinely have effect.
And so we've got any number of examples of companies
that once they had to do this annual audit, they
began to see things in their supply chains that they
just hadn't noticed.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Before, examples of the type of thing that you're trying
to stamp out.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, So, for example, when in Australia when Country Road
had to start auditing when their framework came in place
about six seven years ago, they were stunned and horrified
to discover that they actually had child labor in I
(07:10):
forget which particular country it was. In Asia, they were
using child labor for a part of the manufacturing process
for the socks the one the line of socks that
they were selling, and so they were. And the neat
thing is that rather than just getting rid of this
and saying, oh, you know, horrors, we're not going to
stop that product anymore, they actually work through their supply
(07:31):
chain to address the actual issue itself and go after
the exploitation. Because of course, these companies are of a
size that they are actually able to do that, they
can leverage their size and contexts to genuinely address this part.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Are you aware of anything in the New Zealand context?
Any any companies that are operating in New Zealand that
might be having dodgy supply chains. Are you aware? I
think that's triggered this concern.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
No, because if they were doing it in New Zealand,
they'd already been be prosecuted for it. So this, this
kind of exploitation already is illegal. What this reporting is
about is getting companies who might not realize, well, who
genuinely wouldn't realize that it's there, to actually audit rigorously
(08:22):
their supply chains and operations.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
No, I know that, I understand that. I'm just wondering
whether or not you are aware of any supply chain
supplying New Zealand companies that have got dodgy.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
No, although what I would say is that only one
third of the largest shoe distributors in New Zealand, and
we know from overseas experiences that the shoe industry is
one in which there is sadly quite often modern slavery
taking place. Only one third of the shoe distributors in
(08:56):
New Zealand are able to illustrate at the moment knowledge
of their supply chain that would actually show this kind
of modern slavery. So once this reporting comes in place,
then than the other two thirds are going to have
to take a good hard lock. And again based on
overseas experience, my anticipation is that they will find exploitation
(09:18):
here that they can then go after.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Okay, coming back to the idea of working across the
floor with your labor colleague. And she's the MP for EPSOM,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Kimilla a list the MP. She lives in the North Shore,
but she can tests THEE.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And is that something that I know that happens in
select committees and things all the time. You end up
working with parties around the table, But do you think
that there might actually be this might sort of lead
to an idea of more cooperative Do you really do
is that something that is something staring in your heart
(09:57):
that you think maybe we don't have to just battle
it out and it's automatically pre determined by who's got
the most seats. Anyway, we will just pretend to listen
to what they're saying, or actually we won't listen, we
won't even be in the house. And so do you
actually think there could be a more cooperative form of
governance in this country?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
No, I genuine I genuinely do. Yeah, And because this
is something this is one of the things that I mean,
a lot of the things that Parliament this this couple
of years that I've been to come to really appreciate
and enjoy it. But there's also a number of things
that really frustrate me. And some of those things I
look at and go, this just doesn't have to be
this way. Where it's only this way because everyone just
chooses to continue to make it that way. I mean,
the end of the day, Parliament makes its own rules,
(10:37):
literally not only makes the laws. Everyone else that makes
its own rules, and so we could choose to change
things well in standing order to eighty is exactly that
seven years ago, one parliament, one enlightened parliament, and an
enlightened moment said hey, why don't we do this? And
I would imagine at the time they probably weren't thinking
that it was going to take seven years for that
(10:57):
standing order to actually be used. But now that it
has been used, I'm really hopeful that that we can
see it a lot more often. I often, I mean
another part of the legislative process that i'd love to
see adjusted as a as a part called the Committee
of the Whole House. So it's the third part of
the of the standard legislative process, and it's the point
at which everyone, all the MP's get an opportunity to
(11:20):
debate clause by clause through legislation. And at that stage,
the idea is that you've got, you know, dozens of
MPs who most of whom weren't part of the sleek
committee analysis of the law, actually putting their ideas up.
And I remember sitting there early on as an MP
and listening to somebody. There was actually Adina Williams, who's
(11:43):
another labor MP friend of mine, put up an idea
around a particular piece of legislation that my government was passing,
and I remember sitting there thinking that's actually quite good. God,
I wonder if we can corporate that amendment. But there
was no But there was no serious well, there was
no serious consideration of her amendments because the problem is
that the legislative process now has evolved to the point
(12:04):
where that that part of the legislative process, called committee
as a whole, is viewed by the government as just
an obstacle that we need to get through in order
to get the bill passed into law, and by the
opposition it's just viewed as a way as an opportunity
to fill a bust and just slow the government down.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Greg, Well, the speaker is on his feet now, so
we've got to take a break. I know capitalism is
dear to your heart, so we better let this company
earn some money from some ads. We'll be back with
you in just This is real life. I'm John Cown
and I'm talking with MP Greg Fleming. Back with you
in just a tick.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on News
Talks at b.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Welcome back to real life. I'm John Town talking with
MP Greg Fleming, who chose Gabriel's Obo a special song.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yeah, it is. Every time I hear and my mind
goes back to my wedding day just over city two
years ago. Now we celebrated it last week, and that
was the tune that my wife walked down the aisle
to me. But now it has even extra significance because
just three weeks ago, much to my wife and I
(13:31):
just kissed and caused and I surprise, our daughter in
law walked down the aisle to our son to that
same tune and they had no age.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Was a surprise that son was going to get married.
I take it was a surprise.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
We knew about that. Yeah, it was quite something. We
looked at each other and there might have been a
few tears. It's quite something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Hey, Greg, one of the reasons we wanted to get
you on tonight is what it's White Tangy weekend and
you've been up at White Tonguey and I know that
these issues around the treaty you take them very seriously
and very deeply. How was White Tangy for you this year?
Speaker 3 (14:08):
I loved it, I really did. Yeah, and even you know,
there there are a few moments of obviously, you know,
contests and strong feelings, but no overall, I really really
enjoyed it, and I do say more and more every year.
I'm genuinely, I'm genuinely increasingly hopeful that we're making progress
of the country. And it might sound like the real
surprised listeners, but yeah, when I when I'm actually out
(14:31):
there amongst the conversations on the ground, I realized, no,
we really are.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I mean, we hear the protests, but where can you
see the progress?
Speaker 3 (14:43):
The conversations are more honest, the despite the despite the volume,
there are actually more and more points of agreement, something
as simple as the the the the Napooh settlement question.
There's real progress being made there. So there are there
out there, We're incredibly close to mandates actually been signed.
(15:03):
Nazi He for example, which is one of the largest
areas there. They are well down the track.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So a disconnect between the angry voices we see on
the news and and what happens in the back rooms.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, yeah, it really is, you know. And the for example,
the meeting this year between the government ministers and the
EWE chairs was so constructive and yeah, and it's been
a long time. I've not seen our ministers that excited
a long time. It's just the sense of like, well,
we really are moving here. Another one for me is
(15:37):
just the increasing prevalence of and confidence in today al Mahdi.
Just something simple was sitting in some of the poor
fity and realizing how many people on both sides of
the mud I don't need translators, people that are increasingly
the ambatius. You understand what's been said, and yeah, and
just just the whole way to us, The whole, the
(15:58):
whole spirit of the place is the sense of, yeah,
we're fourteen years away now from celebrating the two hundred anniversary,
and there are thousands of people who are asking the
question deeply and honestly and constructively, what are we going
to be celebrating there?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And when you say to me, I remember you're saying
to me years ago that you wanted to be in
Parliament on the two hundredth anniversary of I. Apart from
being celebrating the fact that you managed to stay in
that log, what would you be wanting to celebrate that
has been achieved by twenty forty? What changes what would
(16:37):
have to change, what progress would have to be made?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Oh? Boy, here where my imagination goes is because I've
listened one hundred times to Bishop Virko's address at the
one hundred and fiftieth anniversary that was conclusions of that
nineteen ninety and in that he says that he's lamenting
as to where were the country are not, but at
the same time he's so hopeful about what is still possible.
(17:03):
When he ends with the words he says that let
us sit and listen to one another. And so that's
why when I when I see it in the last week,
and when I see the genuine listening people actually hearing
each other in between all the yelling people actually genly
listening to each other, what what? What? What for me?
If I jumped through forward fourteen years? What I see
as us as a country, we've we've we've well and
(17:24):
truly completed the sentiment process. So we really are looking forward.
We're never forgetting our past. Obviously, we're entitled entirely informed
by our past and always should be.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
What would be between the constituent peoples of New Zealand,
what would be the the basis of our of our
of our walk together?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
What you would have is Ewi and Hapu who was
who had genuine singer? And all that? All that means
is they is that they genuinely would have the resources
and the wherewithal to be to be to be to
be into listen now for themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So side, how about on the attitudinal side, what would
need to change in the hearts and parkiha and Maori
for us to be to live out the spirit of
the treaty.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
For me, it is actually really when I say listened
to each other, because it's from from the moment I
actually started to learn the language. I found myself therefore
spending some more time in Maori settings. The more time
that I spent in those settings, the more my heart
and my imagination was shaped to a point now that
that I can actually hear pass the words. So there
(18:37):
was a classic moment at the end of the government
porfity on Thursday when why HORROI Shortland smed everything up
when he said, I this is how I feel, And
he was responding to a number of the things that
various government speakers had spoken to and he acknowledged that
this is that the way he was, that that that
(18:57):
what he had taken invove was not what they intended.
But he said this is how I this is how
I feel. In that moment, I thought to myself. Yet
we're making progress, and yet this the biggest challenge that
we had is to is to is to get to
know each other and each other's world sufficiently well that
we are able to genuinely and deeply be heard, to
(19:19):
actually be so that when we say something, people actually
feel what it is that we're saying to them, rather
than mishearing. Because I think, honestly, the miscommunication happens most
of the time because people aren't they there is such
a disconnect be dowing the world that they're coming from.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And where do we get past that? You say, your
learning of Treo Mauri and being on this whole entering
into tel Maori, the world of Maori is getting you
to that point? Is that going to be something that
the whole country has to start on.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I think as many people as possible that can that
can it can walk down that pass that that would
be absolutely fantastic. YEP. So seeing TiO Maori become just
such an and increasingly such a natural thing for young people.
So my five kids now from twenty seven down to
and I notice even a difference in the younger two
(20:12):
compared to the oldest three, like there is a there
is a shift there, and so then I fast forward
that out. I jump out, and I go, Okay, that
means in fourteen years time, that means people under the
age of their mid thirties are going to have this
natural posture towards engagement and comfort in that world. That's
going to make a significant difference. But just to go
(20:34):
back to the same before, I do think that politically economically,
it's really important that we that we complete the settlement
process so that the national conversations that we're having are
about how we're building together, not about how we're continuing
to address the things of the past. I do think
at the moment too much of a national conversation is
(20:55):
backward focused. But so we're in this in between phase
at the moment. As I say, I genuinely bely, over
the next sixty seven years, we're going to take a
significant step forward to being forward focused.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Now, Greg, you've been outspoken as as a Christian and
the treaty has some spiritual significance to you. I've heard
you referred to it as a covenant even more than
a treaty. What what do you mean by that? Where
does that? Where does your faith and the treaty. How
do they mesh as a treaty? Could you say your
treaty is part of your faith and glad to point
(21:29):
out you've only got three minutes.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well that time went to us. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes it is. The treaty only came with only possible
because of the Christian Gospel. The relationship that existed between
the missionaries and the marty chiefs was was grounded on
(21:52):
and shaped by, and enlivened by the Christian Gospel. And
any number of the marty chiefs spoke openly and frankly
and repeatedly to this. But without that, without the Gospel,
the treaty would never have been signed. Hence why it
holds such significance. I think for us as a nation
and instantly for me personally. That's what I find the
(22:15):
Gospel does for me in all areas of life. Isn't
it that the Gospel absolutely informs my approach to how
I serve in Parliament? I mean, I don't I don't
know what it's like not to be not to believe
and be shaped by the Gospel. But but I can't imagine.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
We're going to have to wind you in with and
it's not it's not me that saying this, unfortunately, it's
the clock. And but it's been great talking with.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
You and awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Thanks John, wish your wealth, the passage of your bill
and the rebuilding of your office, and thank you for
being part of real life. We're going out on another song,
expect What is the song you.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Picked, Tennessee whiskey? This is This is one of those
good time songs that that speaks of just fantastic times
with family and friends and I love whiskey.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I guess that those being National MP Greg Fleming. I'm
John Cown. This is real life. Looking forward to being
back with you again next Sunday.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Night on a SIS.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
On your.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Tell us, tell us what's good, Tennessee What's good? See
What's dood.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
For more from News Talks at b Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News talk S ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You day and welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen.
It's not often that first term back bench MPs get
to make headlines, not for good reasons anyway. But my
guest tonight has welcome National MP for Monga Kirk Greg Fleming.
Welcome Greg. Sure, John, I'm glad you could make it.
The flight got in.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
On time, it didn't And now looking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Chat, right, okay, hey, looking forward to talking to you
about white tonguey, about slavery and about you. But first up,
your office burnt down?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
It did. I did quote that someone with was HQ
tested to meet the end of the last year that
I needed up my social media engagement. And so after
the burning office got one hundred and forty thousand views,
one of my colleagues that quit. But it probably wasn't
what HQ had in mind, but it did have worked.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Right, No, I let's ask you about the light of
fluid and matches in your pocket.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
But we got off very light. Actually, it's our poor
neighbors who who had it, and then the buildings adjacent
to them we had to close for sort of a
week or more while we put structures in place, but
got everything open well other than the other than the
destroyed building. Yeah, we've got everything open on Friday, and
(01:46):
then yeah, we won't be back and I'll be back
in my office for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Right, Well, I hope that you can still carry on
doing what you're doing out there. But Wednesday is going
to be a big day for you.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
What's yeah, well, yes, well, yes, it's actually Wednesday week.
It will be the first yep, that'll be the first
members day. So what would And that's the there's two
parts to getting legislation through and government or two two
different tracks. So the main one is obviously a government
legislative order paper, which dominates most of the time. But
(02:17):
then one day every basically about every three weeks, we
get a member's Day and for the first members Day
this year is going to be Wednesday week, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And going through and it's coming through in a slightly
different ways it is.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah. Yeah, So normally bills get onto that onto that
order paper through luck, so there's dozens of different bills
sitting in what is literally a biscuit tin and then
there's a lucky draw that it takes place every few
months to see whose next bill might get pulled out.
But about seven years ago, the Parliament at the time
(02:56):
decided they wanted to encourage the idea of working across
the House and so they came up with what is
known as Standing Order two eighty and it offered the
enticement of a few could get sixty one backbench MPs
to agree. And that number is important because it can't
include anyone who's an executive, so no ministers or under
(03:17):
secretaries can vote. And the only way you could get
sixty one would be to get a mixture of backbench
MPs from both the government backbench and from opposition parties.
And it's never been done before. And so yeah, for
the last of eighteen months, I've been working with my
friend Camilla Bellich, who's the Labor MPT this MP Boast
in Auckland, and yeah, at the end of last year
(03:40):
we both managed to get the approval of our respective
caucuses to have all of our backbench mp support it.
And then yeah, last week we were able to write
to the Speaker of the House, Greg Clark at the
House Froni.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Gregor was sounding like such a good story until you
said you had to go to your caucus to get
the approval, but from the people that aren't allowed to
vote on this, for the people that are allowed to
vote to vote on its am I right here, you're right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
There you are.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah. No, And this is the reality of the of
the whipped caucus system that we have at the moment.
So so caucuses take so parties take position on members bills.
So if if it's a backbenchure, you want to have
a bill put into the biscuit tin, you've you've got
(04:30):
to take it through your caucus. Now there's nothing in
Parliament that says that you had to have to do that.
But if you didn't do that, you wouldn't be a
member of your party for too much longer. So yeah,
so that they operate very much within teams. This has
been one of my many learnings these first couple of
years as a benefits term MP and so and then
so that therefore applies to something like this. The realistically,
(04:53):
the only way that standing order to ac was ever
going to be was going to be triggered was if
an MP from each of the major parties was able
to convince all of their colleagues to on mass supporter,
and that we were.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Able to do I suppose you have to do that,
or else you might be in the comfortable situation of
having your whole party vote against your own bill. But
tell us about that when we go to much further. Yeah,
tell us about the and how it came to be. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
So it's a bill that requires large companies in New Zealand,
and so we've bet to start work. We've set that
threshold at one hundred million dollars turnover to do an
annual audit of their operations and supply chains looking for
evidence of what we call modern slavery. And modern slavery
now is a pretty established term across the developed world
(05:42):
and includes all forms of exploitation and forced labor. And
so this is a requirement that most of our trading
partners have had for a little while. So New Zealand's
been quite an outlier in this regard. And so for example,
Australia has had it for about seven or eight years,
and the number of about three hundred of our biggest
companies in New Zealand already has to do this by
(06:04):
virtue of being owned by an Australian head off. And
so there's about another seven hundred companies at this threshold
that will then be required to do this. And the
whole point of it is to have companies looking keenly
for evidence of modern slavery so that they can eliminate
(06:24):
it from their supply chains, because the evidence from these
kinds of reporting regimes from around the world when they've
been implemented is that they actually, they genuinely have effect.
And so we've got any number of examples of companies
that once they had to do this annual audit, they
began to see things in their supply chains that they
just hadn't noticed.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Before, examples of the type of thing that you're trying
to stamp out.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, So, for example, when in Australia when Country Road
had to start auditing when their framework came in place
about six seven years ago, they were stunned and horrified
to discover that they actually had child labor in I
(07:10):
forget which particular country it was. In Asia, they were
using child labor for a part of the manufacturing process
for the socks the one the line of socks that
they were selling, and so they were. And the neat
thing is that rather than just getting rid of this
and saying, oh, you know, horrors, we're not going to
stop that product anymore, they actually work through their supply
(07:31):
chain to address the actual issue itself and go after
the exploitation. Because of course, these companies are of a
size that they are actually able to do that, they
can leverage their size and contexts to genuinely address this part.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Are you aware of anything in the New Zealand context?
Any any companies that are operating in New Zealand that
might be having dodgy supply chains. Are you aware? I
think that's triggered this concern.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
No, because if they were doing it in New Zealand,
they'd already been be prosecuted for it. So this, this
kind of exploitation already is illegal. What this reporting is
about is getting companies who might not realize, well, who
genuinely wouldn't realize that it's there, to actually audit rigorously
(08:22):
their supply chains and operations.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
No, I know that, I understand that. I'm just wondering
whether or not you are aware of any supply chain
supplying New Zealand companies that have got dodgy.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
No, although what I would say is that only one
third of the largest shoe distributors in New Zealand, and
we know from overseas experiences that the shoe industry is
one in which there is sadly quite often modern slavery
taking place. Only one third of the shoe distributors in
(08:56):
New Zealand are able to illustrate at the moment knowledge
of their supply chain that would actually show this kind
of modern slavery. So once this reporting comes in place,
then than the other two thirds are going to have
to take a good hard lock. And again based on
overseas experience, my anticipation is that they will find exploitation
(09:18):
here that they can then go after.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Okay, coming back to the idea of working across the
floor with your labor colleague. And she's the MP for EPSOM,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Kimilla a list the MP. She lives in the North Shore,
but she can tests THEE.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And is that something that I know that happens in
select committees and things all the time. You end up
working with parties around the table, But do you think
that there might actually be this might sort of lead
to an idea of more cooperative Do you really do
is that something that is something staring in your heart
(09:57):
that you think maybe we don't have to just battle
it out and it's automatically pre determined by who's got
the most seats. Anyway, we will just pretend to listen
to what they're saying, or actually we won't listen, we
won't even be in the house. And so do you
actually think there could be a more cooperative form of
governance in this country?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
No, I genuine I genuinely do. Yeah, And because this
is something this is one of the things that I mean,
a lot of the things that Parliament this this couple
of years that I've been to come to really appreciate
and enjoy it. But there's also a number of things
that really frustrate me. And some of those things I
look at and go, this just doesn't have to be
this way. Where it's only this way because everyone just
chooses to continue to make it that way. I mean,
the end of the day, Parliament makes its own rules,
(10:37):
literally not only makes the laws. Everyone else that makes
its own rules, and so we could choose to change
things well in standing order to eighty is exactly that
seven years ago, one parliament, one enlightened parliament, and an
enlightened moment said hey, why don't we do this? And
I would imagine at the time they probably weren't thinking
that it was going to take seven years for that
(10:57):
standing order to actually be used. But now that it
has been used, I'm really hopeful that that we can
see it a lot more often. I often, I mean
another part of the legislative process that i'd love to
see adjusted as a as a part called the Committee
of the Whole House. So it's the third part of
the of the standard legislative process, and it's the point
at which everyone, all the MP's get an opportunity to
(11:20):
debate clause by clause through legislation. And at that stage,
the idea is that you've got, you know, dozens of
MPs who most of whom weren't part of the sleek
committee analysis of the law, actually putting their ideas up.
And I remember sitting there early on as an MP
and listening to somebody. There was actually Adina Williams, who's
(11:43):
another labor MP friend of mine, put up an idea
around a particular piece of legislation that my government was passing,
and I remember sitting there thinking that's actually quite good. God,
I wonder if we can corporate that amendment. But there
was no But there was no serious well, there was
no serious consideration of her amendments because the problem is
that the legislative process now has evolved to the point
(12:04):
where that that part of the legislative process, called committee
as a whole, is viewed by the government as just
an obstacle that we need to get through in order
to get the bill passed into law, and by the
opposition it's just viewed as a way as an opportunity
to fill a bust and just slow the government down.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Greg, Well, the speaker is on his feet now, so
we've got to take a break. I know capitalism is
dear to your heart, so we better let this company
earn some money from some ads. We'll be back with
you in just This is real life. I'm John Cown
and I'm talking with MP Greg Fleming. Back with you
in just a tick.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on News
Talks at b.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Welcome back to real life. I'm John Town talking with
MP Greg Fleming, who chose Gabriel's Obo a special song.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yeah, it is. Every time I hear and my mind
goes back to my wedding day just over city two
years ago. Now we celebrated it last week, and that
was the tune that my wife walked down the aisle
to me. But now it has even extra significance because
just three weeks ago, much to my wife and I
(13:31):
just kissed and caused and I surprise, our daughter in
law walked down the aisle to our son to that
same tune and they had no age.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Was a surprise that son was going to get married.
I take it was a surprise.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
We knew about that. Yeah, it was quite something. We
looked at each other and there might have been a
few tears. It's quite something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Hey, Greg, one of the reasons we wanted to get
you on tonight is what it's White Tangy weekend and
you've been up at White Tonguey and I know that
these issues around the treaty you take them very seriously
and very deeply. How was White Tangy for you this year?
Speaker 3 (14:08):
I loved it, I really did. Yeah, and even you know,
there there are a few moments of obviously, you know,
contests and strong feelings, but no overall, I really really
enjoyed it, and I do say more and more every year.
I'm genuinely, I'm genuinely increasingly hopeful that we're making progress
of the country. And it might sound like the real
surprised listeners, but yeah, when I when I'm actually out
(14:31):
there amongst the conversations on the ground, I realized, no,
we really are.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I mean, we hear the protests, but where can you
see the progress?
Speaker 3 (14:43):
The conversations are more honest, the despite the despite the volume,
there are actually more and more points of agreement, something
as simple as the the the the Napooh settlement question.
There's real progress being made there. So there are there
out there, We're incredibly close to mandates actually been signed.
(15:03):
Nazi He for example, which is one of the largest
areas there. They are well down the track.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So a disconnect between the angry voices we see on
the news and and what happens in the back rooms.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, yeah, it really is, you know. And the for example,
the meeting this year between the government ministers and the
EWE chairs was so constructive and yeah, and it's been
a long time. I've not seen our ministers that excited
a long time. It's just the sense of like, well,
we really are moving here. Another one for me is
(15:37):
just the increasing prevalence of and confidence in today al Mahdi.
Just something simple was sitting in some of the poor
fity and realizing how many people on both sides of
the mud I don't need translators, people that are increasingly
the ambatius. You understand what's been said, and yeah, and
just just the whole way to us, The whole, the
(15:58):
whole spirit of the place is the sense of, yeah,
we're fourteen years away now from celebrating the two hundred anniversary,
and there are thousands of people who are asking the
question deeply and honestly and constructively, what are we going
to be celebrating there?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And when you say to me, I remember you're saying
to me years ago that you wanted to be in
Parliament on the two hundredth anniversary of I. Apart from
being celebrating the fact that you managed to stay in
that log, what would you be wanting to celebrate that
has been achieved by twenty forty? What changes what would
(16:37):
have to change, what progress would have to be made?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Oh? Boy, here where my imagination goes is because I've
listened one hundred times to Bishop Virko's address at the
one hundred and fiftieth anniversary that was conclusions of that
nineteen ninety and in that he says that he's lamenting
as to where were the country are not, but at
the same time he's so hopeful about what is still possible.
(17:03):
When he ends with the words he says that let
us sit and listen to one another. And so that's
why when I when I see it in the last week,
and when I see the genuine listening people actually hearing
each other in between all the yelling people actually genly
listening to each other, what what? What? What for me?
If I jumped through forward fourteen years? What I see
as us as a country, we've we've we've well and
(17:24):
truly completed the sentiment process. So we really are looking forward.
We're never forgetting our past. Obviously, we're entitled entirely informed
by our past and always should be.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
What would be between the constituent peoples of New Zealand,
what would be the the basis of our of our
of our walk together?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
What you would have is Ewi and Hapu who was
who had genuine singer? And all that? All that means
is they is that they genuinely would have the resources
and the wherewithal to be to be to be to
be into listen now for themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So side, how about on the attitudinal side, what would
need to change in the hearts and parkiha and Maori
for us to be to live out the spirit of
the treaty.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
For me, it is actually really when I say listened
to each other, because it's from from the moment I
actually started to learn the language. I found myself therefore
spending some more time in Maori settings. The more time
that I spent in those settings, the more my heart
and my imagination was shaped to a point now that
that I can actually hear pass the words. So there
(18:37):
was a classic moment at the end of the government
porfity on Thursday when why HORROI Shortland smed everything up
when he said, I this is how I feel, And
he was responding to a number of the things that
various government speakers had spoken to and he acknowledged that
this is that the way he was, that that that
(18:57):
what he had taken invove was not what they intended.
But he said this is how I this is how
I feel. In that moment, I thought to myself. Yet
we're making progress, and yet this the biggest challenge that
we had is to is to is to get to
know each other and each other's world sufficiently well that
we are able to genuinely and deeply be heard, to
(19:19):
actually be so that when we say something, people actually
feel what it is that we're saying to them, rather
than mishearing. Because I think, honestly, the miscommunication happens most
of the time because people aren't they there is such
a disconnect be dowing the world that they're coming from.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And where do we get past that? You say, your
learning of Treo Mauri and being on this whole entering
into tel Maori, the world of Maori is getting you
to that point? Is that going to be something that
the whole country has to start on.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I think as many people as possible that can that
can it can walk down that pass that that would
be absolutely fantastic. YEP. So seeing TiO Maori become just
such an and increasingly such a natural thing for young people.
So my five kids now from twenty seven down to
and I notice even a difference in the younger two
(20:12):
compared to the oldest three, like there is a there
is a shift there, and so then I fast forward
that out. I jump out, and I go, Okay, that
means in fourteen years time, that means people under the
age of their mid thirties are going to have this
natural posture towards engagement and comfort in that world. That's
going to make a significant difference. But just to go
(20:34):
back to the same before, I do think that politically economically,
it's really important that we that we complete the settlement
process so that the national conversations that we're having are
about how we're building together, not about how we're continuing
to address the things of the past. I do think
at the moment too much of a national conversation is
(20:55):
backward focused. But so we're in this in between phase
at the moment. As I say, I genuinely bely, over
the next sixty seven years, we're going to take a
significant step forward to being forward focused.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Now, Greg, you've been outspoken as as a Christian and
the treaty has some spiritual significance to you. I've heard
you referred to it as a covenant even more than
a treaty. What what do you mean by that? Where
does that? Where does your faith and the treaty. How
do they mesh as a treaty? Could you say your
treaty is part of your faith and glad to point
(21:29):
out you've only got three minutes.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well that time went to us. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes it is. The treaty only came with only possible
because of the Christian Gospel. The relationship that existed between
the missionaries and the marty chiefs was was grounded on
(21:52):
and shaped by, and enlivened by the Christian Gospel. And
any number of the marty chiefs spoke openly and frankly
and repeatedly to this. But without that, without the Gospel,
the treaty would never have been signed. Hence why it
holds such significance. I think for us as a nation
and instantly for me personally. That's what I find the
(22:15):
Gospel does for me in all areas of life. Isn't
it that the Gospel absolutely informs my approach to how
I serve in Parliament? I mean, I don't I don't
know what it's like not to be not to believe
and be shaped by the Gospel. But but I can't imagine.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
We're going to have to wind you in with and
it's not it's not me that saying this, unfortunately, it's
the clock. And but it's been great talking with.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
You and awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Thanks John, wish your wealth, the passage of your bill
and the rebuilding of your office, and thank you for
being part of real life. We're going out on another song,
expect What is the song you.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Picked, Tennessee whiskey? This is This is one of those
good time songs that that speaks of just fantastic times
with family and friends and I love whiskey.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I guess that those being National MP Greg Fleming. I'm
John Cown. This is real life. Looking forward to being
back with you again next Sunday.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Night on a SIS.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
On your.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Tell us, tell us what's good, Tennessee What's good? See
What's dood.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
For more from News Talks at b Listen live on
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