February 22, 2026 • 24 mins
Working at the forefront of geopolitics, aid and development, and governance, Josie is CEO of ChildFund New Zealand and Chair of Fair Trade Australia & New Zealand. Her column appears fortnightly in The Post and on Stuff, and she was a finalist for Best Columnist at the 2023 Voyager Media Awards. Her writing has also been published internationally, including in The New York Times.
Founder of Progress New Zealand, Josie has served in senior roles across government, international development and public affairs — including at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in Paris.
Born in New Zealand and educated at University of Warwick and Victoria University of Wellington, Josie brings global insight and sharp analysis to today’s biggest issues.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowan
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Gooday, welcome to real Life. I'm John Cowen and I'm
delighted to have as my guest Josie Pagani. Josie has
been involved in so many things. She's the CEO of
Child Fund and I'm definitely going to talk to her
about that. But she's also a commentator, a columnist, and
she has a catalog of past roles and achievements. It's
(00:53):
it's amazing. It looks like she's edited together about five
different people's LinkedIn profiles. It's amazing. Development work, international trade
and aid work. Welcome Josie prolege.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Hello John. That makes me sound very impressive. I think
what it's politely called is a portfolio career where I've
lurched from one thing to another. But yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, I found it very hard to do a compact introduction,
but I do like actually two introductions that you've given
to yourself publicly. One was I'm New Zealand's second best columnist.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Ah. Yes, that was because I was involved in this
think tank I still am, called Global Progress and it
was set up by Tony Blair and Bill Clinton in
the nineties and it's sort of gone on and developed
beyond them, and every year, you know, we all get
together and have this sort of gathering, and I was
at the last one. I was at a couple of
years ago. It was just before Kiirs Starmer in the
(01:51):
UK became Prime Minister. And suddenly they went, oh God,
can you go up and share the panel with Kiir
Starmer and the Prime Minister of Norway? Who's this guy
called your nest daughter, who's a lovely, lovely labor prime
minister in Norway been around for a long time, and
so suddenly I was like, oh my god. Okay. So
I got up and I wasn't particularly prepared, but I
(02:12):
quickly did some preparation, got up on the panel and
there's the world's media in front of me because they
all want to know what's Kierstarma going to be like
as Prime Minister? Is what's he going to do with Europe?
Is he going to come go back take Britain back
into Europe? And so on? So you know, BBC Financial Times,
New York Times, economists and everything. So I introduced Kiirs Starma,
(02:35):
likely to be the next prime minister in the UK.
You're Thestora prime Minister of Norway. And then someone shouts
out who are you, and so all I could think
to say was I'm New Zealand's second best columnist political columnists.
So that's how that started, which made me sound like,
I don't you saw any the borat films that he
(02:56):
announces that his sister is fourth best prostitutes in Kazakhstan.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So yeah, well, congratulations on making at least into the
finals of the Voyager Awards and.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yes, runner up. Well, actually, you're on a Stora turned
to me and said of first of all, Kirstarmatism, and
he said, don't worry, Josie, We'll make you number one.
And then you're on a Stora turned to me and
he said, was number one not available, jose So anyway,
it relaxed everybody.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But the other introduction that I quite like that you
gave to yourself was at the beginning of a speech
in your first electoral campaign at university, when you contrasted
yourself to your opponent, both saying I'm more left wing
than him.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yes, yes, yes, And to be fair, I say I
didn't win that election, although I did go on to
become the Labor Puddy delegate at Blackpool and in the UK.
My sort of political career in the UK as a
teenager and very young twenties. The only thing I'm remembered
for is accidentally setting fire to a Steinway piano Blackpool Gardens,
(04:04):
Winter Gardens.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So you're an amazing player if you can play that fast.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, when I was pretending to be a jazz pianist
and I had a sort of cigarette hanging out of
my mouth and you know, I'm sort of playing the
piano and singing, and the cigarette fell into the piano
and suddenly started to smoke, and all my friends are
standing around and they went, oh, what are we going
to do? And they poured basically poured their laga into
this beautiful Steinway piano. So yeah, that was my political
(04:32):
career in the UK. Then I slunk back to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I thought it was only Russia you wouldn't be allowed
back to, but it sounds like you're not going to
be allowed back there either, Well, not.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
To the Blackpool Winter Gardens. I don't think but yes, no,
I have recently, well since the Ukraine War, because I
was writing columns that were critical of Putin and the
Russians invading Ukraine. I got sanctioned by the Russians, which
is kind of at At first, you wear it as
a badge of honor and you know, just go, well,
(05:03):
do what you want. I don't care, it's the right
thing to do. And then you suddenly go, hmm, should
I be worried about poisonous umbrellas and you know, poisonous
bottles of persume that might be lying around and so
it's a little bit freaky.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, even the fact that even the fact that it
makes you, you know, think and worry and everything like that,
that's already a toxic thing, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
And well, that is the potent government's tactic, right, So
they target people like me, I think they even they
might even have targeted Mike Yardley or someone like that, anyone,
so that you feel like their tentacles are everywhere and
you may even not be that political, but they'll they
just want you to know that they're watching and listening
(05:48):
and so yeah, and they send you.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
A little messages, don't they.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Oh yes, I got I had a Twitter, you know,
it was Twitter back then a few years ago. Basically
the Ministry of Foreign Afairs in Russia sort of tweeted
out a picture of me with a target on my face,
saying our favorite New Zealand political columnists. So yeah, and
I did text back and I won't swear on radio,
(06:13):
I promise, But it was basically quoting the Ukrainians, go
f yourself Russian warship, which I thought was very cocky
and clever, and then I thought, maybe not taking on
Putin's government is not a great idea, and I well
won't do that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It's sad that opening your mouths can get us into
trouble with people a long way away. I know people
that are actually, no, I'm not going to say other
people I am scared of sometimes putting anti Trump or
anything like that posts on social media because I might
want to go back to the States and to have
to stand there and have them go through my social
(06:51):
media and target me, put me on some list or something.
That's that is scary that we live in a world
like that.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, and you expect that in authoritarian regime like Putin's Russia.
You're not surprised by it. You know, it's pretty shocking,
but you're not surprised. It's very surprising, isn't it that
something like that would happen in the States, no matter
what your politics left or right. And you know, I
have family. My father lived in the States in Atlanta,
(07:19):
Georgia all his adult life, and I spent a lot
of my childhood there. I've got my youngest brother is
born and bred in the South, and my nieces and
nephews are all born in Atlanta. My stepmother is there,
and so you know, I've written a few definitely written
a few columns where I'm critiquing Trump and the government,
and you know, whether it be tariffs, whether it be
(07:43):
the approach to migrants, legal migrants in the States. So yeah,
I worry that I'm going to get to the border
and suddenly I'm going to be sent back home.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah. No, that sounds like quite a possibility in this
crazy age that we live in. I'm sorry that I say,
Oh no, you don't need to worry about that.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
You'll be fine. I'll look after you. Yeah, you'll be fine.
I'll put it the good wordle.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You don't need to mention me in any of your
colubs no.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
No, Well, my eldest boy is now working in DC
for New Zealand government. Actually so, so I think the
Pagani name is probably okay, hopefully. And I love America.
That's the other thing, you know. I feel very passionate
about about the people and the childhood I've had visiting
(08:35):
the States, and I one of the things about being
in the South actually, which is what I'm most familiar with,
Atlanta and Georgia around that area, I have, you know,
extended family there who are not I'm not related to.
They're born and bred Southerners, you know, Auntie Reaber and
Uncle Skip, and I love them, and they're Trump voters,
and they've always been Trump voters. They've always been Republicans,
(08:58):
and so it's been quite challenge. And one of the
things I have written about is actually understanding why, in
their case, you know, quite working class Southern people in Atlanta,
Georgia or around it, in the environs of Georgia, why
would Trump appeal to them? And what is it that
we have to learn about that to try and say, well,
(09:19):
I understand why you feel maybe patronized or you feel
that the sort of political elites are looking down on you,
I understand that. So, yeah, I mean I love America
for better and for worse, and I've thought a lot
about about how it is that it's got to this
place where the majority have voted for Trump.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
You described your career as did you say it was
a portfolio career, you know, but wo to be true
to say that You've had a very clear guiding star
in your life, your politics, but you've taken a pretty
zig zag route to sort of follow that star.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah. I think that's when you try and see what
are the threads that run through any career actually, or
any life. Actually. Yeah, for me, it's been politics. But
I'm so small p politics. I've never been. Yeah, I
don't feel that I'm motivated by the horse race of politics,
(10:16):
you know, the kind of campaign who's ahead, who's behind,
you know, who's playing the game? Right? I think for me,
my politics has always been tied up in my sense
of community. I mean, I was a New Zealander but
left to go live in England when I was very young,
about four or five, and grew up in a very
(10:38):
small village in the Cotswolds, which was at the time
very worthy class village. Now it's very posh, but you know,
and that really defined me being in a small community
where everyone looks after each other, and you know, there
are divisions where you can see my friends and council
houses weren't getting to go to the best schools or
(11:00):
go to university, or my friends in the village never
went to university. So you know, a lot of that
is just the life that you live. And I think
that's the best kind of way to be political. It
has to be politics is just a response to culture
and life and community and a way of expressing a
desire for things to be better.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I wish some of our politicians actually thought that. But
I'm talking with Josie Pegany and I'm going to be
talking to her more after this break about We're going
to talk about, especially about the work that she's doing
now as the CEO of Child Fun. This is real
life on news Talk, said B. I'm John Cown talking
with Josie PEGANI back with you in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on news Talks, EDB.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
As I went down in the river to pray, studying
about that good away and.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Who shall the starry crown? Good Lord show me the way. Welcome,
Welcome back to real life.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
Let's good.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm John Cown talking with Josee PEGANI who chose down
to the river to prey from O brother warth Aren't
they great movie? And it's a lovely song? And why
did you pick it though, Josie, Well, a couple.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Of reasons really. One is that that's the song I
got married too. And I know a lot of the
people you talk to John picked the song that they
got married to, unless they're miserable and divorced, but I'm
not so yay, and yeah, that was the song that
me and John, my lovely husband. We walked down the
aisle for that song. We had an outdoor wedding and
(12:39):
it was a big Catholic Catholic wedding. Got married by
Father Jerry, which it's unusual for the very traditional Catholic
church to agree to a marriage outdoors outside of the church.
So it was really lovely. And the other reason I
picked that song is it reminds me again of the
south of the Georgia, where I spent a lot of
time with my dad and my family there. And it's
(13:03):
actually an old slavery song and some of the interpretation
of it, they say might have been the slaves that
were trying to escape. And and as many gospel songs
are there, they're they're actually instructions because people could read.
So when the priest, you know, came along to do
a church service, he would get everybody singing and in
(13:24):
the words would be instruction for the weak ahead. And
this song they think might be if you're escaping slavery,
then go by the river, go down to the river,
because the dogs won't follow your tracks. You know, pray
that God will guide your way, follow the river, you know,
so that it's it's and the starry crown referred to
(13:46):
navigating by the stars, so you know, the starry crown
will will guide you. So quite quite a fascinating story
behind it. But it's very much a you know, a
gospel former slave song. And I think it's a it's
a very move it's a very beautiful song, and that
it's just about the simplicity of this human urge to pray,
(14:09):
and you know, get down on your knees by the
reverend prey, or get into the river and pray. So
I do, I go, I got a mass. I'm a
very bad Catholic. I know you were in viewing my
friend Tim Wilson, who's a very good Catholic, like my
one of my brothers who's very good Catholic. But it
is important to me, John, that I go to Mass,
(14:32):
and you know, and I think the thing about Catholicism
that is so special for me is that the sacraments
we'll just had ash Wednesday, but the sacraments of communion,
of queuing up for communion is so physically grounding, and
I find it hard sometimes to find that in other churches,
(14:55):
where I think, when you know, the other side of
fate is doubt right, and if you if you have
the physical sacraments to fall back on, then when you're
feeling doubt and confusion about it all, you can fall back
on these rituals and lovely. I'm up here in Cumpity
where Jim Bolger used to go to our church and
(15:17):
he passed away with something, and I just remember this
image of Jim and Joan, his wife, and you know,
they walked community and in front of them would be
you know, someone with no shoes on, who's living in
the homeless or living in the Catholic housing estates and
it's just the sense of everybody's equal before the altar,
(15:37):
and Jim was a very faithful Catholic, as is Joan.
They were very special to our Catholic community up here.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Did your Catholic faith shape your politics?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Oh, definitely, yeah, I think. I mean, I know when
most people think about the Catholic Church and politics, they
think of social justice, and absolutely it's a church that's
rooted in community and grounded in the needs of community,
and that's worldwide. But I think yeah, for me, it
(16:12):
was as much about having a I suppose a place,
a sort of place where you almost kind of meditates
and you can touch base with yourself. And I think
also a feeling again that sense of the broad church
of Catholicism that everybody in the congregation is there to
(16:34):
be loved and understood. You know, there's no one excluded.
And actually Jim Bolge is a classic example of that.
I mean I became friendly with him and his wife
Joan over the last few years, and you know, I
was involved in the Labor Party. Obviously he's a former
National Party Prime minister, and I just had such respect
(16:55):
for him, and I think that sense of reaching across
political spectrums is in the Catholic Church makes perfect sense.
I have many Catholic friends who are on the other
side of Poula. So for me, the politics is really
about the sense of no one has excluded and everybody
is there to be understood and nurtured and loved.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
When you're talking about those contrasting political views existing within
the broad church of the Catholics, I was just thinking
that you don't see that much in politics these days,
that you have to be polarized, you have to do
a party line. You wouldn't have been very comfortable in
party politics these days, would you know.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
There's a reason I'm a failed politician, John. I think
it's like I would have.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You're very humbly. You've described yourself as a bad Catholic
and a failed politician and a second best colombers. But
we don't truth carry on.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So that's actually a friend of mine, one of my
best friends. I just sent her a present and I
couldn't catch up with her, you know, I was too busy,
And she said, oh, your Catholic guilt is fantastic. I'm
really benefiting from your Catholic guilt. So yes, it is
a very Catholic things to put yourself down a bit.
But yeah, it's I forgot what the so you were
(18:15):
talking about.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
A big a failed politician.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Oh, the failed politician. I would have been hopeless on
the back bench of Labor Party because we have a
political tradition in New Zealand of kind of patsy questions.
You know, the back benches asked the stupid patsy questions.
They don't do that in the UK and the Westminster
system that they actually can ask quite difficult questions of
their own leaders. So I think that that that culture
(18:41):
of our back benches sitting there for three years asking
boring patsy questions and not doing much at all, What
on earth are they in politics for?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, and they will stand up and factionalize within the
party over in the UK. And hey, another thing though
that being a failed politicians unable you to do is
take your influence out into the world in other ways,
including doing AID. And I know you're not stranger to
the to the world of aid. We've been involved in
(19:13):
all sorts of things like pillars and working in the Pacific.
But tell us about your latest role with Child Fund
your CEO there.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, and actually I think that's that's just as political
as anything I've done in politics, because it's really about
regional development, about community development, and we work primarily in
the Pacific, but we're you know, it's shocking to me
that there are still children in the Pacific that don't
have access to clean water, that don't go to school,
(19:44):
or it's really hard for them to get to school.
So we just you know, we focus on the basics.
Let's get them clean drinking water, Let's make sure they
get to school. You know, Let's get the grounding foundations
right for these kids. And that's our contribution to to
Pacific development. But we also work through through our part
of a network globally, so we can work through our
(20:08):
partner in Ukraine and Gaza and places like that, and
obviously working primarily with children, but that you know, you've
got to work with their families and their communities in
order to support the kids. I think I've got one.
We've come up with a really big goal which I'm
really excited about because I think it's achievable, which is
that we could I think we can get clean water
(20:28):
to every child in the Pacific within ten years if
we coordinate, if we get together as charities, government, corporates
and businesses working in the Pacific, and that would be
more to list people out of poverty in the Pacific
than just about anything. So you get the basics right
and don't overpromise, and have a bit of humility as
an AID charity, and that's what we try and do
(20:50):
at Child Fund.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I've heard you use the term granular to describe a
lot of things. Is that a granular goal, isn't? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I think that's really important if you look back and
I've been an AID in development for twenty years now,
the one the campaigns or the goals that have succeeded
are the ones that had clear targets, so clear timeline.
So eradicate polio by nineteen eighty success pretty much. Eradicate
smallpox by polio was later, but eradicate smallpox by nineteen
(21:20):
eighty which was one hundred percent successful. Eradicate polio by
you know later. It's still working on that, but nearly
done a half. Extreme poverty by twenty fifteen succeeded. So
I think when when the goals are very clear on malaria,
it might be TB, it might be HIV AIDS, it
(21:41):
might be it might be water in the Pacific if
you can. If you can have a clear goal, people
trust that you're going to deliver and that you're going
to get it done and that you might succeed. So
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, right, If people want to throw in their support
behind child Fund, how do they find you?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Oh, that would be great because a ChildFund dot org
dot MZ. Go on the website and yeah, donate to
We've got an amazing water project up in Solomon Islands
at the moment where we're bringing water to the outer
islands for the first time in twenty years. They're going
to have running water and it's amazing to see the difference.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
That makes I believe water borne diseases are still the
biggest killer of children in the world. So that will
be your wonderful goal to get sorted out and Pacific.
Josie has been an absolute privilege talking to you. I
could have talked to you for hours, I think, and
a quarter of way through my list of questions. But
this means I'll have to get you back as a
guest again. Thank you so much for taking time. We'll
(22:40):
go out on your other choice of songs, which is
what's its called?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
I need a dollar, And it's a great funky song,
and I think it talks to the feeling of inequality
at the moment in our society. But it's also kind
of you know, it's got such an upbeat at beat,
it's quite hopeful as well.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
That's cool. Thank you so much, Josie. Looking forward to
being back on on a real life next Sunday night.
I'm John Cown, wishing you a great way.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Then squearrogram pass play Babe.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
When I come home, when I.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
Need dollar, dollar, dollar, what I need, that I need,
dollar dollar, what I need, what I need Dollaralla, what
I need.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
And if I share with you my story and you
share your dollar, come home, share your dollar with me.
Go ahead and share your come home, share your ballo,
tim me your dollar, share your come home, share your
ballo with me.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
For more from us, talk said b listen live on
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowan
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Gooday, welcome to real Life. I'm John Cowen and I'm
delighted to have as my guest Josie Pagani. Josie has
been involved in so many things. She's the CEO of
Child Fund and I'm definitely going to talk to her
about that. But she's also a commentator, a columnist, and
she has a catalog of past roles and achievements. It's
(00:53):
it's amazing. It looks like she's edited together about five
different people's LinkedIn profiles. It's amazing. Development work, international trade
and aid work. Welcome Josie prolege.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Hello John. That makes me sound very impressive. I think
what it's politely called is a portfolio career where I've
lurched from one thing to another. But yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, I found it very hard to do a compact introduction,
but I do like actually two introductions that you've given
to yourself publicly. One was I'm New Zealand's second best columnist.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Ah. Yes, that was because I was involved in this
think tank I still am, called Global Progress and it
was set up by Tony Blair and Bill Clinton in
the nineties and it's sort of gone on and developed
beyond them, and every year, you know, we all get
together and have this sort of gathering, and I was
at the last one. I was at a couple of
years ago. It was just before Kiirs Starmer in the
(01:51):
UK became Prime Minister. And suddenly they went, oh God,
can you go up and share the panel with Kiir
Starmer and the Prime Minister of Norway? Who's this guy
called your nest daughter, who's a lovely, lovely labor prime
minister in Norway been around for a long time, and
so suddenly I was like, oh my god. Okay. So
I got up and I wasn't particularly prepared, but I
(02:12):
quickly did some preparation, got up on the panel and
there's the world's media in front of me because they
all want to know what's Kierstarma going to be like
as Prime Minister? Is what's he going to do with Europe?
Is he going to come go back take Britain back
into Europe? And so on? So you know, BBC Financial Times,
New York Times, economists and everything. So I introduced Kiirs Starma,
(02:35):
likely to be the next prime minister in the UK.
You're Thestora prime Minister of Norway. And then someone shouts
out who are you, and so all I could think
to say was I'm New Zealand's second best columnist political columnists.
So that's how that started, which made me sound like,
I don't you saw any the borat films that he
(02:56):
announces that his sister is fourth best prostitutes in Kazakhstan.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So yeah, well, congratulations on making at least into the
finals of the Voyager Awards and.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yes, runner up. Well, actually, you're on a Stora turned
to me and said of first of all, Kirstarmatism, and
he said, don't worry, Josie, We'll make you number one.
And then you're on a Stora turned to me and
he said, was number one not available, jose So anyway,
it relaxed everybody.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But the other introduction that I quite like that you
gave to yourself was at the beginning of a speech
in your first electoral campaign at university, when you contrasted
yourself to your opponent, both saying I'm more left wing
than him.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yes, yes, yes, And to be fair, I say I
didn't win that election, although I did go on to
become the Labor Puddy delegate at Blackpool and in the UK.
My sort of political career in the UK as a
teenager and very young twenties. The only thing I'm remembered
for is accidentally setting fire to a Steinway piano Blackpool Gardens,
(04:04):
Winter Gardens.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So you're an amazing player if you can play that fast.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, when I was pretending to be a jazz pianist
and I had a sort of cigarette hanging out of
my mouth and you know, I'm sort of playing the
piano and singing, and the cigarette fell into the piano
and suddenly started to smoke, and all my friends are
standing around and they went, oh, what are we going
to do? And they poured basically poured their laga into
this beautiful Steinway piano. So yeah, that was my political
(04:32):
career in the UK. Then I slunk back to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I thought it was only Russia you wouldn't be allowed
back to, but it sounds like you're not going to
be allowed back there either, Well, not.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
To the Blackpool Winter Gardens. I don't think but yes, no,
I have recently, well since the Ukraine War, because I
was writing columns that were critical of Putin and the
Russians invading Ukraine. I got sanctioned by the Russians, which
is kind of at At first, you wear it as
a badge of honor and you know, just go, well,
(05:03):
do what you want. I don't care, it's the right
thing to do. And then you suddenly go, hmm, should
I be worried about poisonous umbrellas and you know, poisonous
bottles of persume that might be lying around and so
it's a little bit freaky.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, even the fact that even the fact that it
makes you, you know, think and worry and everything like that,
that's already a toxic thing, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
And well, that is the potent government's tactic, right, So
they target people like me, I think they even they
might even have targeted Mike Yardley or someone like that, anyone,
so that you feel like their tentacles are everywhere and
you may even not be that political, but they'll they
just want you to know that they're watching and listening
(05:48):
and so yeah, and they send you.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
A little messages, don't they.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Oh yes, I got I had a Twitter, you know,
it was Twitter back then a few years ago. Basically
the Ministry of Foreign Afairs in Russia sort of tweeted
out a picture of me with a target on my face,
saying our favorite New Zealand political columnists. So yeah, and
I did text back and I won't swear on radio,
(06:13):
I promise, But it was basically quoting the Ukrainians, go
f yourself Russian warship, which I thought was very cocky
and clever, and then I thought, maybe not taking on
Putin's government is not a great idea, and I well
won't do that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It's sad that opening your mouths can get us into
trouble with people a long way away. I know people
that are actually, no, I'm not going to say other
people I am scared of sometimes putting anti Trump or
anything like that posts on social media because I might
want to go back to the States and to have
to stand there and have them go through my social
(06:51):
media and target me, put me on some list or something.
That's that is scary that we live in a world
like that.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, and you expect that in authoritarian regime like Putin's Russia.
You're not surprised by it. You know, it's pretty shocking,
but you're not surprised. It's very surprising, isn't it that
something like that would happen in the States, no matter
what your politics left or right. And you know, I
have family. My father lived in the States in Atlanta,
(07:19):
Georgia all his adult life, and I spent a lot
of my childhood there. I've got my youngest brother is
born and bred in the South, and my nieces and
nephews are all born in Atlanta. My stepmother is there,
and so you know, I've written a few definitely written
a few columns where I'm critiquing Trump and the government,
and you know, whether it be tariffs, whether it be
(07:43):
the approach to migrants, legal migrants in the States. So yeah,
I worry that I'm going to get to the border
and suddenly I'm going to be sent back home.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah. No, that sounds like quite a possibility in this
crazy age that we live in. I'm sorry that I say,
Oh no, you don't need to worry about that.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
You'll be fine. I'll look after you. Yeah, you'll be fine.
I'll put it the good wordle.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You don't need to mention me in any of your
colubs no.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
No, Well, my eldest boy is now working in DC
for New Zealand government. Actually so, so I think the
Pagani name is probably okay, hopefully. And I love America.
That's the other thing, you know. I feel very passionate
about about the people and the childhood I've had visiting
(08:35):
the States, and I one of the things about being
in the South actually, which is what I'm most familiar with,
Atlanta and Georgia around that area, I have, you know,
extended family there who are not I'm not related to.
They're born and bred Southerners, you know, Auntie Reaber and
Uncle Skip, and I love them, and they're Trump voters,
and they've always been Trump voters. They've always been Republicans,
(08:58):
and so it's been quite challenge. And one of the
things I have written about is actually understanding why, in
their case, you know, quite working class Southern people in Atlanta,
Georgia or around it, in the environs of Georgia, why
would Trump appeal to them? And what is it that
we have to learn about that to try and say, well,
(09:19):
I understand why you feel maybe patronized or you feel
that the sort of political elites are looking down on you,
I understand that. So, yeah, I mean I love America
for better and for worse, and I've thought a lot
about about how it is that it's got to this
place where the majority have voted for Trump.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
You described your career as did you say it was
a portfolio career, you know, but wo to be true
to say that You've had a very clear guiding star
in your life, your politics, but you've taken a pretty
zig zag route to sort of follow that star.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah. I think that's when you try and see what
are the threads that run through any career actually, or
any life. Actually. Yeah, for me, it's been politics. But
I'm so small p politics. I've never been. Yeah, I
don't feel that I'm motivated by the horse race of politics,
(10:16):
you know, the kind of campaign who's ahead, who's behind,
you know, who's playing the game? Right? I think for me,
my politics has always been tied up in my sense
of community. I mean, I was a New Zealander but
left to go live in England when I was very young,
about four or five, and grew up in a very
(10:38):
small village in the Cotswolds, which was at the time
very worthy class village. Now it's very posh, but you know,
and that really defined me being in a small community
where everyone looks after each other, and you know, there
are divisions where you can see my friends and council
houses weren't getting to go to the best schools or
(11:00):
go to university, or my friends in the village never
went to university. So you know, a lot of that
is just the life that you live. And I think
that's the best kind of way to be political. It
has to be politics is just a response to culture
and life and community and a way of expressing a
desire for things to be better.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I wish some of our politicians actually thought that. But
I'm talking with Josie Pegany and I'm going to be
talking to her more after this break about We're going
to talk about, especially about the work that she's doing
now as the CEO of Child Fun. This is real
life on news Talk, said B. I'm John Cown talking
with Josie PEGANI back with you in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on news Talks, EDB.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
As I went down in the river to pray, studying
about that good away and.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Who shall the starry crown? Good Lord show me the way. Welcome,
Welcome back to real life.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
Let's good.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm John Cown talking with Josee PEGANI who chose down
to the river to prey from O brother warth Aren't
they great movie? And it's a lovely song? And why
did you pick it though, Josie, Well, a couple.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Of reasons really. One is that that's the song I
got married too. And I know a lot of the
people you talk to John picked the song that they
got married to, unless they're miserable and divorced, but I'm
not so yay, and yeah, that was the song that
me and John, my lovely husband. We walked down the
aisle for that song. We had an outdoor wedding and
(12:39):
it was a big Catholic Catholic wedding. Got married by
Father Jerry, which it's unusual for the very traditional Catholic
church to agree to a marriage outdoors outside of the church.
So it was really lovely. And the other reason I
picked that song is it reminds me again of the
south of the Georgia, where I spent a lot of
time with my dad and my family there. And it's
(13:03):
actually an old slavery song and some of the interpretation
of it, they say might have been the slaves that
were trying to escape. And and as many gospel songs
are there, they're they're actually instructions because people could read.
So when the priest, you know, came along to do
a church service, he would get everybody singing and in
(13:24):
the words would be instruction for the weak ahead. And
this song they think might be if you're escaping slavery,
then go by the river, go down to the river,
because the dogs won't follow your tracks. You know, pray
that God will guide your way, follow the river, you know,
so that it's it's and the starry crown referred to
(13:46):
navigating by the stars, so you know, the starry crown
will will guide you. So quite quite a fascinating story
behind it. But it's very much a you know, a
gospel former slave song. And I think it's a it's
a very move it's a very beautiful song, and that
it's just about the simplicity of this human urge to pray,
(14:09):
and you know, get down on your knees by the
reverend prey, or get into the river and pray. So
I do, I go, I got a mass. I'm a
very bad Catholic. I know you were in viewing my
friend Tim Wilson, who's a very good Catholic, like my
one of my brothers who's very good Catholic. But it
is important to me, John, that I go to Mass,
(14:32):
and you know, and I think the thing about Catholicism
that is so special for me is that the sacraments
we'll just had ash Wednesday, but the sacraments of communion,
of queuing up for communion is so physically grounding, and
I find it hard sometimes to find that in other churches,
(14:55):
where I think, when you know, the other side of
fate is doubt right, and if you if you have
the physical sacraments to fall back on, then when you're
feeling doubt and confusion about it all, you can fall back
on these rituals and lovely. I'm up here in Cumpity
where Jim Bolger used to go to our church and
(15:17):
he passed away with something, and I just remember this
image of Jim and Joan, his wife, and you know,
they walked community and in front of them would be
you know, someone with no shoes on, who's living in
the homeless or living in the Catholic housing estates and
it's just the sense of everybody's equal before the altar,
(15:37):
and Jim was a very faithful Catholic, as is Joan.
They were very special to our Catholic community up here.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Did your Catholic faith shape your politics?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Oh, definitely, yeah, I think. I mean, I know when
most people think about the Catholic Church and politics, they
think of social justice, and absolutely it's a church that's
rooted in community and grounded in the needs of community,
and that's worldwide. But I think yeah, for me, it
(16:12):
was as much about having a I suppose a place,
a sort of place where you almost kind of meditates
and you can touch base with yourself. And I think
also a feeling again that sense of the broad church
of Catholicism that everybody in the congregation is there to
(16:34):
be loved and understood. You know, there's no one excluded.
And actually Jim Bolge is a classic example of that.
I mean I became friendly with him and his wife
Joan over the last few years, and you know, I
was involved in the Labor Party. Obviously he's a former
National Party Prime minister, and I just had such respect
(16:55):
for him, and I think that sense of reaching across
political spectrums is in the Catholic Church makes perfect sense.
I have many Catholic friends who are on the other
side of Poula. So for me, the politics is really
about the sense of no one has excluded and everybody
is there to be understood and nurtured and loved.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
When you're talking about those contrasting political views existing within
the broad church of the Catholics, I was just thinking
that you don't see that much in politics these days,
that you have to be polarized, you have to do
a party line. You wouldn't have been very comfortable in
party politics these days, would you know.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
There's a reason I'm a failed politician, John. I think
it's like I would have.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You're very humbly. You've described yourself as a bad Catholic
and a failed politician and a second best colombers. But
we don't truth carry on.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So that's actually a friend of mine, one of my
best friends. I just sent her a present and I
couldn't catch up with her, you know, I was too busy,
And she said, oh, your Catholic guilt is fantastic. I'm
really benefiting from your Catholic guilt. So yes, it is
a very Catholic things to put yourself down a bit.
But yeah, it's I forgot what the so you were
(18:15):
talking about.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
A big a failed politician.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Oh, the failed politician. I would have been hopeless on
the back bench of Labor Party because we have a
political tradition in New Zealand of kind of patsy questions.
You know, the back benches asked the stupid patsy questions.
They don't do that in the UK and the Westminster
system that they actually can ask quite difficult questions of
their own leaders. So I think that that that culture
(18:41):
of our back benches sitting there for three years asking
boring patsy questions and not doing much at all, What
on earth are they in politics for?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, and they will stand up and factionalize within the
party over in the UK. And hey, another thing though
that being a failed politicians unable you to do is
take your influence out into the world in other ways,
including doing AID. And I know you're not stranger to
the to the world of aid. We've been involved in
(19:13):
all sorts of things like pillars and working in the Pacific.
But tell us about your latest role with Child Fund
your CEO there.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, and actually I think that's that's just as political
as anything I've done in politics, because it's really about
regional development, about community development, and we work primarily in
the Pacific, but we're you know, it's shocking to me
that there are still children in the Pacific that don't
have access to clean water, that don't go to school,
(19:44):
or it's really hard for them to get to school.
So we just you know, we focus on the basics.
Let's get them clean drinking water, Let's make sure they
get to school. You know, Let's get the grounding foundations
right for these kids. And that's our contribution to to
Pacific development. But we also work through through our part
of a network globally, so we can work through our
(20:08):
partner in Ukraine and Gaza and places like that, and
obviously working primarily with children, but that you know, you've
got to work with their families and their communities in
order to support the kids. I think I've got one.
We've come up with a really big goal which I'm
really excited about because I think it's achievable, which is
that we could I think we can get clean water
(20:28):
to every child in the Pacific within ten years if
we coordinate, if we get together as charities, government, corporates
and businesses working in the Pacific, and that would be
more to list people out of poverty in the Pacific
than just about anything. So you get the basics right
and don't overpromise, and have a bit of humility as
an AID charity, and that's what we try and do
(20:50):
at Child Fund.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I've heard you use the term granular to describe a
lot of things. Is that a granular goal, isn't? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I think that's really important if you look back and
I've been an AID in development for twenty years now,
the one the campaigns or the goals that have succeeded
are the ones that had clear targets, so clear timeline.
So eradicate polio by nineteen eighty success pretty much. Eradicate
smallpox by polio was later, but eradicate smallpox by nineteen
(21:20):
eighty which was one hundred percent successful. Eradicate polio by
you know later. It's still working on that, but nearly
done a half. Extreme poverty by twenty fifteen succeeded. So
I think when when the goals are very clear on malaria,
it might be TB, it might be HIV AIDS, it
(21:41):
might be it might be water in the Pacific if
you can. If you can have a clear goal, people
trust that you're going to deliver and that you're going
to get it done and that you might succeed. So
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, right, If people want to throw in their support
behind child Fund, how do they find you?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Oh, that would be great because a ChildFund dot org
dot MZ. Go on the website and yeah, donate to
We've got an amazing water project up in Solomon Islands
at the moment where we're bringing water to the outer
islands for the first time in twenty years. They're going
to have running water and it's amazing to see the difference.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
That makes I believe water borne diseases are still the
biggest killer of children in the world. So that will
be your wonderful goal to get sorted out and Pacific.
Josie has been an absolute privilege talking to you. I
could have talked to you for hours, I think, and
a quarter of way through my list of questions. But
this means I'll have to get you back as a
guest again. Thank you so much for taking time. We'll
(22:40):
go out on your other choice of songs, which is
what's its called?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
I need a dollar, And it's a great funky song,
and I think it talks to the feeling of inequality
at the moment in our society. But it's also kind
of you know, it's got such an upbeat at beat,
it's quite hopeful as well.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
That's cool. Thank you so much, Josie. Looking forward to
being back on on a real life next Sunday night.
I'm John Cown, wishing you a great way.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Then squearrogram pass play Babe.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
When I come home, when I.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
Need dollar, dollar, dollar, what I need, that I need,
dollar dollar, what I need, what I need Dollaralla, what
I need.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
And if I share with you my story and you
share your dollar, come home, share your dollar with me.
Go ahead and share your come home, share your ballo,
tim me your dollar, share your come home, share your
ballo with me.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
For more from us, talk said b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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