Questions have been raised after the death of a baby boy in Te Kuiti.
A homicide investigation's been launched after the 10-month-old couldn't be revived on Saturday afternoon.
His injuries are thought NOT to be accidental and Oranga Tamariki's assisting Police.
The father is insisting that he’s done nothing wrong, saying that he was trying to save his baby’s life, not take it.
The investigation has sparked a question as to how difficult it is to make an arrest and convict someone when a child is killed.
Neil Hallett, Private investigator with Helix Investigations told Kerre Woodham that one of the main challenges stems from the deaths occurring in private settings.
He said that when you have a homicide in a public setting you have outside witnesses who will come forward, but in private settings where everyone knows each other, a cone of silence comes down.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerry Wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be the father of the ten month old Tikiwiti
baby at the center of a homicide investigation. Says he's
done nothing wrong and was trying to save his baby's life,
not take it. Police believe his injuries aren't accidental and
Oranga Tamariki's assisting investigations, and people have been wondering how
(00:31):
hard is it to make an arrest and get a
conviction when it comes to the murder of children. There
are so many dead babies with no one who has
been held accountable for their murder. Helix Investigation's private investigator
and former New Zealand Police Detective Inspector Neil Hallett joins me, now,
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Good a Kerry, how are you well.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm good, thank you. But like a lot of Kiwis
and like a lot of police, I imagine incredibly frustrated
that this seems to be another case where a baby
will be They don't die, they don't die peacefully in
their sleep. A baby's murdered and nobody's held accountable. How
frustrating is it with the police trying to deal with
(01:14):
child homicides.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
It can be incredibly frustrating, and the reasons behind it
being so difficult obvious, but I'll point them out. You know,
you're in a very private setting. Either the people involved
in the murder of the child or the death of
(01:38):
the child, or the other people within that house will
know each other. They will know what has gone on.
You know, whoever was responsible, maybe one of it, of
several that have mistreated the child. And yeah, the cone
(01:58):
of silence comes down, and with that cone of silence,
it makes it very hard.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
There must be ways of changing the legislation, perhaps not
just to the right of silence, but allowing a child
to die under your care. I mean, surely everyone in
that house is culpable to a greater or lesser degree.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Absolutely, And there are provisions under the Crimes Act for
parents or guardians or person in place of a parent
who is in the check care of the child to
be charged with not providing the child with the necessaries
of life and to protect the child from injury. And
I'm sure that will be on the minds of the
(02:48):
detectives involved in this case. In any other case, you
can if you're struggling to prove the ingredients of a
murder or a manslorter opt for that the facts would
come out. But again, you know, he who alleges must
prove and the police have to prove that the person
(03:11):
in charge was in charge at the time.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I mean, we've seen plenty of people who have been
convicted of serious crime and then journalists have done endless
books and podcasts and speculation as to you know, the
fact that the evidence shouldn't have held up but did
in court they maintain they're not guilty, and yet they're
banged up for years and years and years. And I
(03:36):
know it sounds like you know, a lynch bob, but
why can't we do the same for these bloody people.
Bring them all to court, let a jury decide.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Look, I'm sure that that will be in the minds
of the detectives involved in the cases, that everyone will
be aware of baby Rubing being one of the ones.
And obviously this recent matter, it's not you know, these
(04:08):
sorts of homicide do get the resources that that they deserve.
And it's not a case I would say, of the
police failing in their duty. It's just a tough line,
as I'd say, if if there's a homicide in a
pub or or on the street. You've got witnesses that
(04:30):
are happy or do come forward, you can compel them.
But once they're in the witness fox, of course you
know they can. They can elect not to give evidence
because they don't wish to incriminate themselves, for example.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
So yes, it is very tough and frustratingly. Juries seem
to take their duties very seriously like they they you know,
from what I've seen from so many serious jury trials.
I think one of them was a serial rapist and
they found him guilty of about nineteen charges and not
(05:07):
guilty of one because the evidence simply wasn't there. They
don't tend to find people guilty unless they are.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yes, you know, the jury system is an interesting beast,
and it's not perfect, but it's probably the most perfect
system we can create in a free society.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Somebody has sent me a text saying, why don't the
police charge the family with perverting the course of justice
by not speaking?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah, that's a good suggestion. I don't think it would
meet the ingredients. They can, as I say, a section
one fifty two of the Crime Tact. People can look
that up. There are dugcre Off the top of my head.
I think it's punishable by seven years. But to me,
it's about about holding people to account. And I'm sure
(06:03):
that this will be an option that's been considered by
the police and all of the matters that you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Can people bring a civil case like could they hire
private investigators like you and and say, find out who
killed those Kahue twins or baby ru or you know,
any of the other unsolved child.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Murders you a private prosecution can yeah, yeah, can be
put forward by anyone, but the same standards of proofs
need to be met that the police in the crown face.
And if you put forward a case in the hope
(06:46):
that the jury would would sympathize, you know that it would.
I don't think it would get past the legal tests
that the judge would be undoubtedly asked to apply by
the defense counsel. So you know, evident sufficiency is one
(07:08):
of the one of the grounds, and yeah, it would.
It would be a tough ass. There's certainly nothing stopping
people hiring private investigators. Not that I'm pushing my barrow
to look into any criminal matters, and something that most
private eyes do on a regular basis in the hope
(07:30):
that they will find something that perhaps the overwork police
we're unable to find.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Which has happened before. And I guess yes when it comes.
I mean, how hamstrung are the police by sensitivities around
babies and families. And you know, the mother says she's
grieving and beside herself and distraught, and you'd have to wonder,
really is she. But at the same time you have
(07:57):
to be mindful of the sensitivities. You can't just go
in with your size twelve boots and start trumping around.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
I would imagine that that I don't know the boot
size of Graham Pitt Keithley, but it would be it
would be up there that they will have done a
warrant certainly, and yes there would be there would be evidence.
And I see in this particular case this talk of
the baby being previously admitted, Well that that would certainly
(08:30):
form part of the investigation making sure you've got that
we're able to get that evidence in as similar fact,
evidence if there has been an ongoing sort of reign
of terror for one of a better words or better words.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I just wonder you know whether punishment is actually I mean,
anybody who has got such a warped mind that they
could damage an infant, a baby, a small child. I mean,
going to prison isn't going to fix them. It might
just stop them breeding, which would be fine by me.
But you know, you know, prison is not going to
(09:14):
fix someone who thinks it's okay. And the force it
must require to damage a baby's bones is incredible.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
And yeah, the benefits or otherwise of prison, of course,
could be talked about for weeks. But and there are
there are defenses in terms available and then you'll be
familiar with the word and phanticide, which wouldn't apply in
this case. It's one of those rare charges that only
(09:44):
applies to a woman and that you know, you'll be
aware of the of the law around that, I'm sure,
but it's basically a temporary insanity type defense.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, man, frustrating. It must are the ones that plague you,
the ones that got away where you know, damn well
who did it but you couldn't prove it.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Thankfully, the ones I've been involved in in my career,
we've held the people to account. It's not always badness.
I remember a particularly horrific one in Hamilton where the
accused was initially found guilty, but the Court of Appeal
(10:36):
reduced it to insanity and taking your point, for someone
to do what he did, you would have to have
been insane. So yeah, they do. They certainly, they certainly
pray on your mind. Just talking about that, I'm minded
of the of the post mortems we had to do
(10:59):
that day of three people, two of which were children.
And yeah, I won't unto any more details, but.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
No, I'm sorry to remind you of it.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, no, no worries. I mean you please do
these jobs. We're often they're often criticized, but often people
forget some of the yeah, some of the horrors they
have to they have to deal with.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Oh no, I have every sympathy for the police, Neil,
thank you so much. Neil Hallett Helix Investigations, former New
Zealand Police Detective inspector. I just cannot even imagine how
horrific it must be for the policemen and women attending
these sorts of crimes, and being for you're a parent yourself,
it's even more horrific.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from nine am weekdays or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Kerry Wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be the father of the ten month old Tikiwiti
baby at the center of a homicide investigation. Says he's
done nothing wrong and was trying to save his baby's life,
not take it. Police believe his injuries aren't accidental and
Oranga Tamariki's assisting investigations, and people have been wondering how
(00:31):
hard is it to make an arrest and get a
conviction when it comes to the murder of children. There
are so many dead babies with no one who has
been held accountable for their murder. Helix Investigation's private investigator
and former New Zealand Police Detective Inspector Neil Hallett joins me, now,
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Good a Kerry, how are you well.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm good, thank you. But like a lot of Kiwis
and like a lot of police, I imagine incredibly frustrated
that this seems to be another case where a baby
will be They don't die, they don't die peacefully in
their sleep. A baby's murdered and nobody's held accountable. How
frustrating is it with the police trying to deal with
(01:14):
child homicides.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
It can be incredibly frustrating, and the reasons behind it
being so difficult obvious, but I'll point them out. You know,
you're in a very private setting. Either the people involved
in the murder of the child or the death of
(01:38):
the child, or the other people within that house will
know each other. They will know what has gone on.
You know, whoever was responsible, maybe one of it, of
several that have mistreated the child. And yeah, the cone
(01:58):
of silence comes down, and with that cone of silence,
it makes it very hard.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
There must be ways of changing the legislation, perhaps not
just to the right of silence, but allowing a child
to die under your care. I mean, surely everyone in
that house is culpable to a greater or lesser degree.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Absolutely, And there are provisions under the Crimes Act for
parents or guardians or person in place of a parent
who is in the check care of the child to
be charged with not providing the child with the necessaries
of life and to protect the child from injury. And
I'm sure that will be on the minds of the
(02:48):
detectives involved in this case. In any other case, you
can if you're struggling to prove the ingredients of a
murder or a manslorter opt for that the facts would
come out. But again, you know, he who alleges must
prove and the police have to prove that the person
(03:11):
in charge was in charge at the time.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I mean, we've seen plenty of people who have been
convicted of serious crime and then journalists have done endless
books and podcasts and speculation as to you know, the
fact that the evidence shouldn't have held up but did
in court they maintain they're not guilty, and yet they're
banged up for years and years and years. And I
(03:36):
know it sounds like you know, a lynch bob, but
why can't we do the same for these bloody people.
Bring them all to court, let a jury decide.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Look, I'm sure that that will be in the minds
of the detectives involved in the cases, that everyone will
be aware of baby Rubing being one of the ones.
And obviously this recent matter, it's not you know, these
(04:08):
sorts of homicide do get the resources that that they deserve.
And it's not a case I would say, of the
police failing in their duty. It's just a tough line,
as I'd say, if if there's a homicide in a
pub or or on the street. You've got witnesses that
(04:30):
are happy or do come forward, you can compel them.
But once they're in the witness fox, of course you
know they can. They can elect not to give evidence
because they don't wish to incriminate themselves, for example.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
So yes, it is very tough and frustratingly. Juries seem
to take their duties very seriously like they they you know,
from what I've seen from so many serious jury trials.
I think one of them was a serial rapist and
they found him guilty of about nineteen charges and not
(05:07):
guilty of one because the evidence simply wasn't there. They
don't tend to find people guilty unless they are.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yes, you know, the jury system is an interesting beast,
and it's not perfect, but it's probably the most perfect
system we can create in a free society.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Somebody has sent me a text saying, why don't the
police charge the family with perverting the course of justice
by not speaking?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah, that's a good suggestion. I don't think it would
meet the ingredients. They can, as I say, a section
one fifty two of the Crime Tact. People can look
that up. There are dugcre Off the top of my head.
I think it's punishable by seven years. But to me,
it's about about holding people to account. And I'm sure
(06:03):
that this will be an option that's been considered by
the police and all of the matters that you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Can people bring a civil case like could they hire
private investigators like you and and say, find out who
killed those Kahue twins or baby ru or you know,
any of the other unsolved child.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Murders you a private prosecution can yeah, yeah, can be
put forward by anyone, but the same standards of proofs
need to be met that the police in the crown face.
And if you put forward a case in the hope
(06:46):
that the jury would would sympathize, you know that it would.
I don't think it would get past the legal tests
that the judge would be undoubtedly asked to apply by
the defense counsel. So you know, evident sufficiency is one
(07:08):
of the one of the grounds, and yeah, it would.
It would be a tough ass. There's certainly nothing stopping
people hiring private investigators. Not that I'm pushing my barrow
to look into any criminal matters, and something that most
private eyes do on a regular basis in the hope
(07:30):
that they will find something that perhaps the overwork police
we're unable to find.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Which has happened before. And I guess yes when it comes.
I mean, how hamstrung are the police by sensitivities around
babies and families. And you know, the mother says she's
grieving and beside herself and distraught, and you'd have to wonder,
really is she. But at the same time you have
(07:57):
to be mindful of the sensitivities. You can't just go
in with your size twelve boots and start trumping around.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
I would imagine that that I don't know the boot
size of Graham Pitt Keithley, but it would be it
would be up there that they will have done a
warrant certainly, and yes there would be there would be evidence.
And I see in this particular case this talk of
the baby being previously admitted, Well that that would certainly
(08:30):
form part of the investigation making sure you've got that
we're able to get that evidence in as similar fact,
evidence if there has been an ongoing sort of reign
of terror for one of a better words or better words.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I just wonder you know whether punishment is actually I mean,
anybody who has got such a warped mind that they
could damage an infant, a baby, a small child. I mean,
going to prison isn't going to fix them. It might
just stop them breeding, which would be fine by me.
But you know, you know, prison is not going to
(09:14):
fix someone who thinks it's okay. And the force it
must require to damage a baby's bones is incredible.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
And yeah, the benefits or otherwise of prison, of course,
could be talked about for weeks. But and there are
there are defenses in terms available and then you'll be
familiar with the word and phanticide, which wouldn't apply in
this case. It's one of those rare charges that only
(09:44):
applies to a woman and that you know, you'll be
aware of the of the law around that, I'm sure,
but it's basically a temporary insanity type defense.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, man, frustrating. It must are the ones that plague you,
the ones that got away where you know, damn well
who did it but you couldn't prove it.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Thankfully, the ones I've been involved in in my career,
we've held the people to account. It's not always badness.
I remember a particularly horrific one in Hamilton where the
accused was initially found guilty, but the Court of Appeal
(10:36):
reduced it to insanity and taking your point, for someone
to do what he did, you would have to have
been insane. So yeah, they do. They certainly, they certainly
pray on your mind. Just talking about that, I'm minded
of the of the post mortems we had to do
(10:59):
that day of three people, two of which were children.
And yeah, I won't unto any more details, but.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
No, I'm sorry to remind you of it.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, no, no worries. I mean you please do
these jobs. We're often they're often criticized, but often people
forget some of the yeah, some of the horrors they
have to they have to deal with.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Oh no, I have every sympathy for the police, Neil,
thank you so much. Neil Hallett Helix Investigations, former New
Zealand Police Detective inspector. I just cannot even imagine how
horrific it must be for the policemen and women attending
these sorts of crimes, and being for you're a parent yourself,
it's even more horrific.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from nine am weekdays or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio,
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.