Why shoplift something you can afford?
Not every shoplifter is doing it out of economic necessity, some thieves taking despite having a high income, status, and a steady career.
After ex-Green Party MP Golriz Ghahraman pleaded guilty to four shoplifting charges today, the question of why an affluent person would commit retail theft is again being raised.
Dr Dougal Sutherland, a clinical psychologist with Umbrella Wellbeing, told Kerre Woodham that psychological pressures and stress can be behind the decision to shoplift.
He said that when people come under pressure they can come up with what, in hindsight, are quite irrational ways of getting out of a situation via self-sabotage.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry Wood and Morning's podcast from
news Talk said b.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We were talking about the shoplifting and why people do
it when they really don't need to, when they have
a great income, lots of status, impressive career. And the
psychologist quoted in the story from The Herald from the
thirteenth of March as doctor Dougal Sutherland, the clinical psychologist
from Umbrella Wellbeing. He joins us, Now, very good morning
(00:34):
to you, doctor Sutherland.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Good morning, Carrie. How's it going good?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you. Look, we were talking about this earlier and
I think you described it really well in the article
where you said that they build up of stress and
you can associate it or compare it to people having
a drink after work. You don't mean to get smashed,
and then you do, and then you associate stress relief
with But I've always thought that when people get stressed,
and there's been some high profile people in the past
(00:59):
in New Zealand who've been caught shoplifting, but they pick
up stupid things and it's the act of stealing itself
that is the thrill, not the thing itself. So why
would you how can you say that it's it's a
mental disorder when you're only going for quality products that
(01:21):
you know, you don't get an attack of PTSDs and
kmart or the two dollars shop.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah. Yeah, Look, I think it's a really good question.
It's a couple of things points I'd make. Firstly, I think,
as you're kind of alluding to, I think with any
behavior like this, you do have to before you look
for deep seated psychological reasons. You have to rule out
the obvious, you know, and the obvious and shoplifting is
you just don't want to pay for it, right, And
(01:48):
I think that's and I mean, I can't really comment
on goals governments particular case. I don't know it, but
I think you always have to rule that out, you know.
It's the old adage. If you hear whose beats, you
think horses, not zebras. And so you've got to rule
out the obvious, the obvious causes, and only then can
you think about more complex psychological issues. And I don't
(02:12):
use the term kind of mental disorder. I don't know
whether there is a specific mental disorder that's related to
shoplifting called kleptomania. That would be a more complicated argument
to link that back to PTSD and maybe better to
think about psychological mechanisms rather than a disorder. If that
(02:34):
kind of makes sense. It might not be a diagnosis.
But a job of a psychologist is sometimes to help
explain and understand behavior, and that can often be quite
a complicated sort of route to try and understand. We
certainly know that people with histories of trauma, and I
wouldn't use the term PTSD, but histories of difficult backgrounds
do engage in unusual behaviors, like kids who are stard
(02:58):
or deprived of food when they're young often engage in
hoarding of food behaviors when they're older, which is again
that's sort of the explanation.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
That makes sense, it does.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah, look, the I guess the high profile case. I
think I've been shoplifting as one owner rider. Yeah, you know,
twenty years ago or so. And then she said she
commented afterwards that actually she saw it as a way
of getting out of something that she didn't want to do.
She didn't need the materials or whatever she stole. She
(03:32):
stole from high end stores because she actually wanted to
get out of the situation she was in, and at
the time she was so stressed and pressured that she
couldn't think clearly about how else to do it. So
she came up with this plan about, well, if I
steal and I get caught, then people won't want to
have me in their movies anymore. And she was right,
they didn't. And she talked about how it was quite
(03:54):
for her, are quite a successful strategy, And it wasn't
like she deliberately sat down on Monday and said, right,
I shall go and shoplift from the shop, and then
on Friday, I'll get caught and by next week I'll
be out of the movies. Yeah, it's not a clear process.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That your psyche
is rescuing you from a situation that everybody thinks is
amazing and fabulous, but you don't want to be in.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yeh very much so. And look, when people come under pressure,
then they often come up with what the hindsights in
quite irrational ways of getting out of a situation that
you know, think about sort of self sabotaging that you
offer an example I can think of as in a relationship.
Let's say you have the beliefs that you never are
(04:42):
really good enough to be in a good relationship and
things are going a bit rocky in your relationship, and
somebody comes along and they seem quite attractive, and you say, well,
what the hell, I'm not gonna you know, this current
relationship is not going to last because I don't deserve it.
Some might as well have a fling, and so you
haven't a fear, which of course brings an end to
the relationship anyway that you were in, and sort of
(05:03):
a self fulfilling, self sabotage thing.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Oh that makes so much sense. Yes, yes, And it's
also the relief that people have when they reach rock bottom,
be at whatever addiction they might have. People think it's
the worst thing that's ever happened, but in fact it's
the best because all of a sudden they can start again.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
They can start again, and it's Yeah. The other thing
I think is important to say is, you know, we
look for a psychological explanation of how to understand the behavior,
but that's different from making an excuse for why behavior occurred.
And you know, the Mental Health Foundation Sean Robinson's been
really clear about Hey, look, having some sort of mental
(05:43):
health problem is not an excuse for engaging in illegal
behavior That consequences still have to stand, but we can
still understand the behavior. Those two You can hold both
of those at the same time. You can understand the
behavior and say, hey, look, it still needs to have
a punishment or a consequence that they don't rule each
other out.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, that makes so much sense. Thank God, thank god
I'm talking to you, because I with my pea brain,
I've been trying to why was it only expensive stuff,
you know?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And and it.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Wasn't about the stuff. And it wasn't because there was
a chat that used to come into the restaurant when
I was matre ding, and he keeps stealing the cuppery.
It was one of the wealthiest men from you know,
from the white and upper gentleman farmer had come over
and then nick the cutpery. But he'd only take like
one fork and these were cheap stainless steel or one teaspoon,
(06:35):
and they're like he just gets a throll out of it,
just add it to the bell, but he doesn't care,
you know, it doesn't matter. Okay, fine, So that's what
I always thought that kind of disorder was. But I
see that this could well be something completely different, you.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Know, And certainly the other thing to say about things
like shoplifting as a result of a mental health problem
or disorder is that it is rare. It's not it's
not something we come across a lot. Yeah, and that
that that's certainly. The psychology research around it shows that
people who engage in it are often or usually almost
(07:12):
overcome by by shame and guilt afterwards. So they're not
doing it and going oh god off for Pat Scott Free.
There's often a very complex mixture of emotions after the event,
because of course they know that what they've done is wrong.
We're not you know that. Nobody's trying to say that.
But it's not like people are going away going oh
oll cool, got away with that one. It's more, oh
(07:34):
my god, I've done this again, and what's going to
happen to me? And all that shame and remorse and guilt.
They're not they're not free of that. In fact, they
get a lot more of it because of the size
of the shoplift and they've engaged, and so it's not
a I think that's important to be aware of too,
that it's not a it's not a guilt free thing
at all. It's very much tied up with shame and
(07:55):
guilt and feelings of not being worthwhile and why the
hell have I done this in the first place. Very
complicated psychological situation for somebody to get themselves into.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Absolutely, I've got a people asking what PTSD is, but
I don't think we have time, like, can you explain
what PTSD is in a minute?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
In a minute? So PTSD stands for post traumatic stress disorder,
and I can't come in on whether that's.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
No, this is just a genot.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
But in general, so you do have to have experienced
a trauma. Now in psychological language, you know, in everyday language,
we might say, oh, gosh, the cat poot on the car,
but what a trauma, But that's not what we don't
really mean that. In psychology terms, a psychological trauma is
something where death was near, or you were assaulted, or
(08:44):
there was some there was perhaps a rape or sexual assault,
anything where you were life or bodily integrity was threatened.
So that's the trauma. And then post the trauma, so
after the trauma, you get a whole series of psychological symptoms,
things like flashbacks imagining the situation was happening again. You're
on edge an alert. People are probably familiar with it
(09:07):
out of the movies from things like war, you know,
shell shock or after the Vietnam War, but it can
occur any time when there's that your body, your life,
or your bodily integrity is threatened, can potentially develop into
post traumatic stress disorder. Again, I'm not sure how that
would link into the current situation, but that's in general
(09:29):
what PTSD is.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Thank you so much. I so appreciate your time. I
really do. That's given me a much better understanding, much
better than mine. Thanks having amusings to myself. Dr Dougal Sutherland,
clinical psychologist from Umbrella Wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
For more from carry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the carry Wood and Morning's podcast from
news Talk said b.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We were talking about the shoplifting and why people do
it when they really don't need to, when they have
a great income, lots of status, impressive career. And the
psychologist quoted in the story from The Herald from the
thirteenth of March as doctor Dougal Sutherland, the clinical psychologist
from Umbrella Wellbeing. He joins us, Now, very good morning
(00:34):
to you, doctor Sutherland.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Good morning, Carrie. How's it going good?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you. Look, we were talking about this earlier and
I think you described it really well in the article
where you said that they build up of stress and
you can associate it or compare it to people having
a drink after work. You don't mean to get smashed,
and then you do, and then you associate stress relief
with But I've always thought that when people get stressed,
and there's been some high profile people in the past
(00:59):
in New Zealand who've been caught shoplifting, but they pick
up stupid things and it's the act of stealing itself
that is the thrill, not the thing itself. So why
would you how can you say that it's it's a
mental disorder when you're only going for quality products that
(01:21):
you know, you don't get an attack of PTSDs and
kmart or the two dollars shop.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah. Yeah, Look, I think it's a really good question.
It's a couple of things points I'd make. Firstly, I think,
as you're kind of alluding to, I think with any
behavior like this, you do have to before you look
for deep seated psychological reasons. You have to rule out
the obvious, you know, and the obvious and shoplifting is
you just don't want to pay for it, right, And
(01:48):
I think that's and I mean, I can't really comment
on goals governments particular case. I don't know it, but
I think you always have to rule that out, you know.
It's the old adage. If you hear whose beats, you
think horses, not zebras. And so you've got to rule
out the obvious, the obvious causes, and only then can
you think about more complex psychological issues. And I don't
(02:12):
use the term kind of mental disorder. I don't know
whether there is a specific mental disorder that's related to
shoplifting called kleptomania. That would be a more complicated argument
to link that back to PTSD and maybe better to
think about psychological mechanisms rather than a disorder. If that
(02:34):
kind of makes sense. It might not be a diagnosis.
But a job of a psychologist is sometimes to help
explain and understand behavior, and that can often be quite
a complicated sort of route to try and understand. We
certainly know that people with histories of trauma, and I
wouldn't use the term PTSD, but histories of difficult backgrounds
do engage in unusual behaviors, like kids who are stard
(02:58):
or deprived of food when they're young often engage in
hoarding of food behaviors when they're older, which is again
that's sort of the explanation.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
That makes sense, it does.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah, look, the I guess the high profile case. I
think I've been shoplifting as one owner rider. Yeah, you know,
twenty years ago or so. And then she said she
commented afterwards that actually she saw it as a way
of getting out of something that she didn't want to do.
She didn't need the materials or whatever she stole. She
(03:32):
stole from high end stores because she actually wanted to
get out of the situation she was in, and at
the time she was so stressed and pressured that she
couldn't think clearly about how else to do it. So
she came up with this plan about, well, if I
steal and I get caught, then people won't want to
have me in their movies anymore. And she was right,
they didn't. And she talked about how it was quite
(03:54):
for her, are quite a successful strategy, And it wasn't
like she deliberately sat down on Monday and said, right,
I shall go and shoplift from the shop, and then
on Friday, I'll get caught and by next week I'll
be out of the movies. Yeah, it's not a clear process.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That your psyche
is rescuing you from a situation that everybody thinks is
amazing and fabulous, but you don't want to be in.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yeh very much so. And look, when people come under pressure,
then they often come up with what the hindsights in
quite irrational ways of getting out of a situation that
you know, think about sort of self sabotaging that you
offer an example I can think of as in a relationship.
Let's say you have the beliefs that you never are
(04:42):
really good enough to be in a good relationship and
things are going a bit rocky in your relationship, and
somebody comes along and they seem quite attractive, and you say, well,
what the hell, I'm not gonna you know, this current
relationship is not going to last because I don't deserve it.
Some might as well have a fling, and so you
haven't a fear, which of course brings an end to
the relationship anyway that you were in, and sort of
(05:03):
a self fulfilling, self sabotage thing.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Oh that makes so much sense. Yes, yes, And it's
also the relief that people have when they reach rock bottom,
be at whatever addiction they might have. People think it's
the worst thing that's ever happened, but in fact it's
the best because all of a sudden they can start again.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
They can start again, and it's Yeah. The other thing
I think is important to say is, you know, we
look for a psychological explanation of how to understand the behavior,
but that's different from making an excuse for why behavior occurred.
And you know, the Mental Health Foundation Sean Robinson's been
really clear about Hey, look, having some sort of mental
(05:43):
health problem is not an excuse for engaging in illegal
behavior That consequences still have to stand, but we can
still understand the behavior. Those two You can hold both
of those at the same time. You can understand the
behavior and say, hey, look, it still needs to have
a punishment or a consequence that they don't rule each
other out.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, that makes so much sense. Thank God, thank god
I'm talking to you, because I with my pea brain,
I've been trying to why was it only expensive stuff,
you know?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And and it.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Wasn't about the stuff. And it wasn't because there was
a chat that used to come into the restaurant when
I was matre ding, and he keeps stealing the cuppery.
It was one of the wealthiest men from you know,
from the white and upper gentleman farmer had come over
and then nick the cutpery. But he'd only take like
one fork and these were cheap stainless steel or one teaspoon,
(06:35):
and they're like he just gets a throll out of it,
just add it to the bell, but he doesn't care,
you know, it doesn't matter. Okay, fine, So that's what
I always thought that kind of disorder was. But I
see that this could well be something completely different, you.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Know, And certainly the other thing to say about things
like shoplifting as a result of a mental health problem
or disorder is that it is rare. It's not it's
not something we come across a lot. Yeah, and that
that that's certainly. The psychology research around it shows that
people who engage in it are often or usually almost
(07:12):
overcome by by shame and guilt afterwards. So they're not
doing it and going oh god off for Pat Scott Free.
There's often a very complex mixture of emotions after the event,
because of course they know that what they've done is wrong.
We're not you know that. Nobody's trying to say that.
But it's not like people are going away going oh
oll cool, got away with that one. It's more, oh
(07:34):
my god, I've done this again, and what's going to
happen to me? And all that shame and remorse and guilt.
They're not they're not free of that. In fact, they
get a lot more of it because of the size
of the shoplift and they've engaged, and so it's not
a I think that's important to be aware of too,
that it's not a it's not a guilt free thing
at all. It's very much tied up with shame and
(07:55):
guilt and feelings of not being worthwhile and why the
hell have I done this in the first place. Very
complicated psychological situation for somebody to get themselves into.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Absolutely, I've got a people asking what PTSD is, but
I don't think we have time, like, can you explain
what PTSD is in a minute?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
In a minute? So PTSD stands for post traumatic stress disorder,
and I can't come in on whether that's.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
No, this is just a genot.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
But in general, so you do have to have experienced
a trauma. Now in psychological language, you know, in everyday language,
we might say, oh, gosh, the cat poot on the car,
but what a trauma, But that's not what we don't
really mean that. In psychology terms, a psychological trauma is
something where death was near, or you were assaulted, or
(08:44):
there was some there was perhaps a rape or sexual assault,
anything where you were life or bodily integrity was threatened.
So that's the trauma. And then post the trauma, so
after the trauma, you get a whole series of psychological symptoms,
things like flashbacks imagining the situation was happening again. You're
on edge an alert. People are probably familiar with it
(09:07):
out of the movies from things like war, you know,
shell shock or after the Vietnam War, but it can
occur any time when there's that your body, your life,
or your bodily integrity is threatened, can potentially develop into
post traumatic stress disorder. Again, I'm not sure how that
would link into the current situation, but that's in general
(09:29):
what PTSD is.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Thank you so much. I so appreciate your time. I
really do. That's given me a much better understanding, much
better than mine. Thanks having amusings to myself. Dr Dougal Sutherland,
clinical psychologist from Umbrella Wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
For more from carry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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