June 30, 2024 • 10 mins
More people are turning away from drinking alcohol than ever, according to new data.
Premium Kiwi winemaker, Giesen, has invested over a million dollars into removing alcohol from their wine, to keep up with demand.
Chief winemaker Duncan Shouler says consumers have always wanted an alternative, but the quality and product choice wasn't there previously.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be fewer people are drinking wine every single year,
but an overseas and New Zealand markets, demand for low
to zero wines is growing. Beth Forest of Forest Wines
Markets sixty to sixty five percent of its Mulbra wines
is low alcohol. They say they're an overnight success that
(00:30):
took twenty years different reasons. In the US, the focus
is on cutting calories. The UK New Zealand consumers want
to drink that tastes good but is not bad for them.
Older people are discovering their bodies no longer effectively process alcohol,
but don't want to give up on wine with a meal,
and younger people look at old people and go ooh, no,
(00:53):
thank you, Not for us, it would it be like them.
So another wine maker, Jieson, is investing more than a
million dollars and a ten thousand liters spinning cone to
remove alcohol from its wine basically keep up with demand.
They produced one point eight million liters of zero alcohol
wine per year. Chief wine maker dunk And Shawler says
(01:13):
consumers have always wanted an alternative, but the quality and
the product choice simply wasn't there previously, dun Controller joins me. Now,
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Morning carry How are you well.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I'm chip a bright eyed and bushy tailed despite a
six hour lunch and a friends yesterday with my no
alcohol wine. So I'm going through the through the trial
and experiment phase. I love your zero percent Merlow, very
good first.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Read, but I'm for giving it a try for the
whole of July.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
No no, I'm six months in counting.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Oh wow, fatastic, but it.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Is honestly, I love wine, love wine, love champagne, loved it,
loved it, loved it until I loved it too much,
and replacing it, trying to find that kick, that flavor
that draw my beautiful hit as proving near impossible. I
loved Pino no chardoney champagne and that was it, And
(02:15):
your Merlow's about as close as I've come to a palatable.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Red well it is. It's wine is a you know,
it's a sacred product if you like. It's something that
we've been drinking for thousands of years, and it's a
wonderful thing. It goes well with food as we know
it goes It's great with friends and everything else. And
it has structure and acidity and complex flavors. And to
do that in a drink without alcohol is hard. It
(02:40):
is hard. But I think we're getting better and better
and better at it, and people are really getting on
board and supporting the products now, which is great. It's
great to hear that you're enjoying the murlow. It's the
red is probably the hardest one to make. Actually, Ah,
that might be.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Why then, because I haven't understood why they taste so different.
Is it that because I didn't think alcohol had a
taste person?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't necessarily have a taste of such.
But what it does it adds warmth. It gives warmth
to any drink, adds a body. What it also does
is it's it's a solvent, so it support supports a roma,
so it allows a roma to escape out out of
wine into a glass and to get that lovely sort
of bouquet of a wine. So it does add a
lot of important components to a wine, and when you
(03:28):
remove it, you've got to be really conscious of that.
And we'll answer alcohol wines, we try and make them
as close as possible to a regular wine, so we
don't add anything like a flavoring or anything that replaces alcohol.
But you've got to think about how you're creating the
wine so it's still balanced to wind. All that balances
flavor and acidity and structure. It's a challenge, but it's
(03:51):
it's fun when people seem to be taking it on board.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
They certainly are. But because that's what I was wondering,
If you take the alcohol out, can you not add
something in to give it that special kick?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
You can. There are some things like glycerol, for example,
that you could add to a zero alcol wine that
would give it a bit more sweetness. But we always
took an approach, and we started this four years ago,
that we would only ever add things that we can
add to regular wine, and you can't add gresser old
to regular wine. We want it to be as close
to a wine experience as possible. We're a really good
(04:25):
example as well would be lots of sugar. And when
you remove the sweetness of apple and body of alcohol,
one way to get it back is sugar. But the
problem with that, of course, is that you end up
with something that's got higher calories and after three or
four SIPs it becomes a bit sweet and as soon
as it looks great juicy, you've kind of lost the point.
It looks like a kid's drink. It's not an adult
drink anymore. So we're really really careful with that and
(04:48):
try and make it as pure as possible and just
a great expression of new zeer and wine.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
When it comes to the ones like af you know,
the af ones and the liars and the sort of
preteen spirity type ones, perhaps because I have never really
drunk spirits, they seem like great alternative. I'm not missing
anything when I drink those, and they seem to be
making them from fresh like, Okay, there's a new market,
(05:17):
so we'll create something for that market. Is there any
point in looking at at not making it exactly like
wine and then taking the alcohol out. Is there any
way of creating a drink from grapes that's not grape juicy,
that is sophisticated that might involve a different process or
are we all just am I just flavoring around?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, not at all. No, it's a really good question
and the answer is yes. I think that if anything,
what people have experienced with this sort of no low
sort of wave of popularity, is it Anything's possible. It's
a new category or kind of a new category, and
you can just have fun with it. So, yes, you
can make something that will be a bit winy and
have a wine experience without starting with a wine to
(06:01):
begin with. And there are products out there, and like
you said, some of those af products non alcoholic experience.
They're great and they rely on flavor and you're building
it from the ground up. And we we're looking at
that sort of thing too, and we probably will start
doing some of those products. But for the wine, we
find that myself included. You know, most wine drinkers are
(06:21):
quite picky about what they have and they really want
something that's whiney. I know that's und a silly word,
but winey experience.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah, as soon as you sort of start manipulating it,
it becomes less wine and it might still be a
good drink, but it's it's not winy. And we want
people to get to open the bottle and have it
with dinner or friends and family and have that wine
food experience without alcohol.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Are you finding the demand is coming from consumers or
from hospitality venues.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Consumers. I think it's very it's very consumer driven. It's
a fascinating category, and I think that it's one of
those categories where the consumer is almost ahead of trade.
I think that what's interesting is the consumer's always been there, right,
and there's always been people out there that wanted to
reduce their alcohol or cut it out of their lives
style entirely, or people you know like Wayne who you
mentioned earlier, who perhaps have a medical reason to cut
(07:18):
it out of their life. They've always been there, but
the choice of products hasn't. And this explosion of new
products and increasing quality is meaning that people can now
go out there and find something that gives them that
experience they want. So I think it is very consumer driven,
which is fascinating, and it's across generations as well. Like
you said, Boomers, gen X classic wine drinkers, and they're
(07:42):
really supporting it. And meanwhile Gen Z and early millennials
are sort of trying to live their life with less
less alcohol in it and they're supporting it as well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Interesting, and why are there some varieties that lend themselves
to being alcohol free better than others, Because I've noticed
this very little sharp lay on the shelves.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah, there are so with a white one. When you
remove the alcohol, that sweetness of alcohol goes away, and
so what you're left behind with is something that can
look very sick. So if you have a really acidic wine,
you've got to be a little bit careful of that.
Chardona is quite good because it is a little bit
less acidic, and the oak flavors add a bit more
(08:24):
complexity and more of that sort of adult flavor that
you're looking at for. So charon works quite well. But
you're right, there isn't actually that much out there.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Also, right, you're not making one, know you.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
We are going to be releasing a charden very soon.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh oh okay, I've been looking.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Well there's good news. They will give it, give it time,
and there will be there will be a sharden out
there as well. So it's pretty exciting and we're really happy.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Look stubbing, do you mind like when you you know,
you spend years cultivating your craft to be a wine maker,
like you, you spend years understanding the nuances of flavors
and textures, and now all of a sudden you've got
these winy old people who've been drink wine for ever
and ever and ever, and who now go I want
(09:09):
the same but different.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, it's a really good point. Look, I love wine.
I mean I've enjoyed tasting wine and drinking wine for
years and years, and it is a really complex product
and it is, like I said, it's almost a sacred thing.
So when you go from that to making something that's
so different, it is a bit of a challenge. It's
a personal chance to say, Okay, I'm okay with this.
(09:34):
But the more you get into it, the more you
realize that Number One, to make a good zerolcohol wine,
you've got to make a really good wine to start with.
So you've got to be a good wine maker anyway
to make that base wine and then remove it. And
the challenge of removing alcohol is just another step, and
it's another skill where you've got to sort of try
and learn. But I think ultimately, when you start getting
the feedback from people who have decided to remove ALCOH
(09:56):
from their lives and they taste it and they say,
I've been waiting years for this, Thanks so much for
making this zero alcohol wine, it's great and now I
can have that wine experience with my family again or
with my friends. It's really really rewarding and it's just
as rewarding is when you make an alcoholic wine and
it does well at a wine show or a wine critic,
it's just as rewarding.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I'm pleased to hear it. Well, thank you very much.
I'll keep an eye out on the shelves for the
Shardi Dungan, Shuler, Geese and chief winemaker making the zero
and low zero what do they call them? No low
alcohol wines on the shelves at the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to news
talks it'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be fewer people are drinking wine every single year,
but an overseas and New Zealand markets, demand for low
to zero wines is growing. Beth Forest of Forest Wines
Markets sixty to sixty five percent of its Mulbra wines
is low alcohol. They say they're an overnight success that
(00:30):
took twenty years different reasons. In the US, the focus
is on cutting calories. The UK New Zealand consumers want
to drink that tastes good but is not bad for them.
Older people are discovering their bodies no longer effectively process alcohol,
but don't want to give up on wine with a meal,
and younger people look at old people and go ooh, no,
(00:53):
thank you, Not for us, it would it be like them.
So another wine maker, Jieson, is investing more than a
million dollars and a ten thousand liters spinning cone to
remove alcohol from its wine basically keep up with demand.
They produced one point eight million liters of zero alcohol
wine per year. Chief wine maker dunk And Shawler says
(01:13):
consumers have always wanted an alternative, but the quality and
the product choice simply wasn't there previously, dun Controller joins me. Now,
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Morning carry How are you well.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I'm chip a bright eyed and bushy tailed despite a
six hour lunch and a friends yesterday with my no
alcohol wine. So I'm going through the through the trial
and experiment phase. I love your zero percent Merlow, very
good first.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Read, but I'm for giving it a try for the
whole of July.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
No no, I'm six months in counting.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Oh wow, fatastic, but it.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Is honestly, I love wine, love wine, love champagne, loved it,
loved it, loved it until I loved it too much,
and replacing it, trying to find that kick, that flavor
that draw my beautiful hit as proving near impossible. I
loved Pino no chardoney champagne and that was it, And
(02:15):
your Merlow's about as close as I've come to a palatable.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Red well it is. It's wine is a you know,
it's a sacred product if you like. It's something that
we've been drinking for thousands of years, and it's a
wonderful thing. It goes well with food as we know
it goes It's great with friends and everything else. And
it has structure and acidity and complex flavors. And to
do that in a drink without alcohol is hard. It
(02:40):
is hard. But I think we're getting better and better
and better at it, and people are really getting on
board and supporting the products now, which is great. It's
great to hear that you're enjoying the murlow. It's the
red is probably the hardest one to make. Actually, Ah,
that might be.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Why then, because I haven't understood why they taste so different.
Is it that because I didn't think alcohol had a
taste person?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't necessarily have a taste of such.
But what it does it adds warmth. It gives warmth
to any drink, adds a body. What it also does
is it's it's a solvent, so it support supports a roma,
so it allows a roma to escape out out of
wine into a glass and to get that lovely sort
of bouquet of a wine. So it does add a
lot of important components to a wine, and when you
(03:28):
remove it, you've got to be really conscious of that.
And we'll answer alcohol wines, we try and make them
as close as possible to a regular wine, so we
don't add anything like a flavoring or anything that replaces alcohol.
But you've got to think about how you're creating the
wine so it's still balanced to wind. All that balances
flavor and acidity and structure. It's a challenge, but it's
(03:51):
it's fun when people seem to be taking it on board.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
They certainly are. But because that's what I was wondering,
If you take the alcohol out, can you not add
something in to give it that special kick?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
You can. There are some things like glycerol, for example,
that you could add to a zero alcol wine that
would give it a bit more sweetness. But we always
took an approach, and we started this four years ago,
that we would only ever add things that we can
add to regular wine, and you can't add gresser old
to regular wine. We want it to be as close
to a wine experience as possible. We're a really good
(04:25):
example as well would be lots of sugar. And when
you remove the sweetness of apple and body of alcohol,
one way to get it back is sugar. But the
problem with that, of course, is that you end up
with something that's got higher calories and after three or
four SIPs it becomes a bit sweet and as soon
as it looks great juicy, you've kind of lost the point.
It looks like a kid's drink. It's not an adult
drink anymore. So we're really really careful with that and
(04:48):
try and make it as pure as possible and just
a great expression of new zeer and wine.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
When it comes to the ones like af you know,
the af ones and the liars and the sort of
preteen spirity type ones, perhaps because I have never really
drunk spirits, they seem like great alternative. I'm not missing
anything when I drink those, and they seem to be
making them from fresh like, Okay, there's a new market,
(05:17):
so we'll create something for that market. Is there any
point in looking at at not making it exactly like
wine and then taking the alcohol out. Is there any
way of creating a drink from grapes that's not grape juicy,
that is sophisticated that might involve a different process or
are we all just am I just flavoring around?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, not at all. No, it's a really good question
and the answer is yes. I think that if anything,
what people have experienced with this sort of no low
sort of wave of popularity, is it Anything's possible. It's
a new category or kind of a new category, and
you can just have fun with it. So, yes, you
can make something that will be a bit winy and
have a wine experience without starting with a wine to
(06:01):
begin with. And there are products out there, and like
you said, some of those af products non alcoholic experience.
They're great and they rely on flavor and you're building
it from the ground up. And we we're looking at
that sort of thing too, and we probably will start
doing some of those products. But for the wine, we
find that myself included. You know, most wine drinkers are
(06:21):
quite picky about what they have and they really want
something that's whiney. I know that's und a silly word,
but winey experience.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah, as soon as you sort of start manipulating it,
it becomes less wine and it might still be a
good drink, but it's it's not winy. And we want
people to get to open the bottle and have it
with dinner or friends and family and have that wine
food experience without alcohol.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Are you finding the demand is coming from consumers or
from hospitality venues.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Consumers. I think it's very it's very consumer driven. It's
a fascinating category, and I think that it's one of
those categories where the consumer is almost ahead of trade.
I think that what's interesting is the consumer's always been there, right,
and there's always been people out there that wanted to
reduce their alcohol or cut it out of their lives
style entirely, or people you know like Wayne who you
mentioned earlier, who perhaps have a medical reason to cut
(07:18):
it out of their life. They've always been there, but
the choice of products hasn't. And this explosion of new
products and increasing quality is meaning that people can now
go out there and find something that gives them that
experience they want. So I think it is very consumer driven,
which is fascinating, and it's across generations as well. Like
you said, Boomers, gen X classic wine drinkers, and they're
(07:42):
really supporting it. And meanwhile Gen Z and early millennials
are sort of trying to live their life with less
less alcohol in it and they're supporting it as well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Interesting, and why are there some varieties that lend themselves
to being alcohol free better than others, Because I've noticed
this very little sharp lay on the shelves.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah, there are so with a white one. When you
remove the alcohol, that sweetness of alcohol goes away, and
so what you're left behind with is something that can
look very sick. So if you have a really acidic wine,
you've got to be a little bit careful of that.
Chardona is quite good because it is a little bit
less acidic, and the oak flavors add a bit more
(08:24):
complexity and more of that sort of adult flavor that
you're looking at for. So charon works quite well. But
you're right, there isn't actually that much out there.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Also, right, you're not making one, know you.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
We are going to be releasing a charden very soon.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh oh okay, I've been looking.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Well there's good news. They will give it, give it time,
and there will be there will be a sharden out
there as well. So it's pretty exciting and we're really happy.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Look stubbing, do you mind like when you you know,
you spend years cultivating your craft to be a wine maker,
like you, you spend years understanding the nuances of flavors
and textures, and now all of a sudden you've got
these winy old people who've been drink wine for ever
and ever and ever, and who now go I want
(09:09):
the same but different.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, it's a really good point. Look, I love wine.
I mean I've enjoyed tasting wine and drinking wine for
years and years, and it is a really complex product
and it is, like I said, it's almost a sacred thing.
So when you go from that to making something that's
so different, it is a bit of a challenge. It's
a personal chance to say, Okay, I'm okay with this.
(09:34):
But the more you get into it, the more you
realize that Number One, to make a good zerolcohol wine,
you've got to make a really good wine to start with.
So you've got to be a good wine maker anyway
to make that base wine and then remove it. And
the challenge of removing alcohol is just another step, and
it's another skill where you've got to sort of try
and learn. But I think ultimately, when you start getting
the feedback from people who have decided to remove ALCOH
(09:56):
from their lives and they taste it and they say,
I've been waiting years for this, Thanks so much for
making this zero alcohol wine, it's great and now I
can have that wine experience with my family again or
with my friends. It's really really rewarding and it's just
as rewarding is when you make an alcoholic wine and
it does well at a wine show or a wine critic,
it's just as rewarding.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I'm pleased to hear it. Well, thank you very much.
I'll keep an eye out on the shelves for the
Shardi Dungan, Shuler, Geese and chief winemaker making the zero
and low zero what do they call them? No low
alcohol wines on the shelves at the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to news
talks it'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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