Sir Lockwood Smith: Former Speaker of the House on the Parliamentary clash between ACT and Speaker Gerry Brownlee

ACT Leader David Seymour is alleging racism in Parliament over select committee tensions and claims of personal attacks towards MP Karen Chhour. 

The ACT Party says its confidence in the Speaker of the House is “falling by the day”, accusing Gerry Brownlee of failing to address racial harassment in Parliament. 

Seymour told Mike Hosking this morning they wrote to the Speaker, calling the issues 'serious.' 

He says the response suggested there was no issue. 

Former National MP and Speaker of the House Sir Lockwood Smith joined Kerre Woodham to discuss how he’d approach such a situation. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood of morning's podcast from News
Talk sed B.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
ACT leader David Seymour is alleging racism in Parliament over
Select Committee tensions and claims of personal attacks towards his
MP karent Sure. The ACT party says it's confidence in
the Speaker of the House is falling by the day,
accusing Jerry Brownley of failing to address racial harassment in parliament,
Seymour told My Costing this morning they wrote to the

(00:32):
Speaker calling the issues serious. He says the response suggested
there was no issue. Joining me now as former Nationally
MPN Speaker of the House, Sir lockwood Smith, A very good.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Morning to you, Kerry, good morning to you.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
I know you can't comment on individuals, of course, but
when it comes to the job of the speaker, how
do you prevent spirited debate from descending into personal abuse?

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, you're right, Carry I mean, I've got to be
careful what I say. All I can really say is
how I might have approached such a situation. You know
what focused my decision made me, if you like. And
I also add that it's so much easier to make
comments after the event. You know, often on the spur
of the moment, the speaker, you know, faces a difficult task,
but then they do have the opportunity to reflect on

(01:21):
their decisions and to offer a considered opinion to the House,
and that's important that speakers can do that. And on
this particular issue, I was always guided by what really
matters in parliament, you know, and the government being able
to pursue it's you know, it's legislative program effectively is

(01:47):
really important, and that it can't use the systems of
Parliament to advance that without proper scrutiny, that the executives
held to account effectively during question time. Those principles drove me.
But also the dignity of the House and the dignity
of individual members. Those three key things that drove me.

(02:07):
And I've got to be honest that, you know, I
gather that that current sure has been sort of told
by accused by members in the House or in the
select me, which is part of the House, that she's
not mold enough. To me, that's getting almost as racist
as it can get. And we're absolutely attacks the inner

(02:31):
being of a person because you know, we're all of
complex ethnicities, I'm sure, and you know, I wouldn't have
a clue. What I go back to, I don't have
to have any maltive blood and me but goodness knows
what I have around the world from around the world
in me. But you know you are who you are,
and to accuse someone of not being sufficiently one ethnicity

(02:54):
or another is about as in my opinion, as racist
and get it can get. And there is no no
place for racism expressions of racism in Parliament, none at all.
She be tolerated and that's just how I would have
handled it. And I would have, certainly if that had
happened in the house, sat the person down and cautioned

(03:14):
them that if they required them to apologize, and made
it very clear if I heard that sort of thing again,
they'd be leaving the house. And I don't know. That's
just how I would handle that sort of thing. That's
all I can really say about it. I compare it.
You know, it's something like lapel pins. You know, there's
been a bit of an issue there. I think members
wearing a lapel pin that reflects their party, that there's

(03:38):
their party. To me, that's pretty minor. And I'm sure
we don't want huge party logos over the House. I mean,
MMP's done a bad enough job. There's no longer a
House of Representatives. It's a place of political parties, which
means a great tragedy. But we don't want the place
reduced by political party logos make it even worse. But
lapel pins really, I mean, we all know where a

(04:01):
silver firm or around the place, partly because my father
served the Second World War and members of my family
were killed in the both Great Wars, and every New
Zealander who's died overseason of war is buried under the
silver firm, not under the New Zealand flag, actually buried
under the silver firm. And I happen to wear a
silver firm pin. But you know, to me, racism is

(04:24):
and racism is not just one way street. You know,
to accuse someone of being not sufficiently one ethnicity or another,
to me is unacceptable totally.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Is there an onus of responsibility on the speaker to
create a safe space for MP's in the house.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
The House is always going to be robust carry and
I think it would be wrong to try and make
it a lovely, you know, soft place. It ain't. It's
a robust place, and that's fair because there is a
robust debate, because they're debating issues of great importance to
New Zealand and to our country, and so don't think

(05:06):
it necessarily has to be all lovey dovey. But again,
I mentioned the dignity of the house, and I'd like
to think when I was Speaker that I helped maintain
the dignity of the place, and the speaker can do that.
The speaker stamps their own mark on the house. As
a question about that, if you look at the periods

(05:28):
before me, my time speaking, my Lad's time, and our
speaker Brown this time, every speaker, you know, they would
stamps their own character on the place if you like.
And I tried to maintain a place that was, while robust,
had a certain dignity about it.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Do you think perhaps that MPs today don't have an
understanding of the rules of engagement, that they're not inculcated
in the in the way in which things are done
in the house, or that they're just not interested in learning.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Well, I think the speaker can help with that by
making very clear decisions and explaining why our decisions made
can help with that. But there's just one fundamental rule
I think Kerry that tends to guide all our activities,
be it in Parliament or in business anywhere else. And
that's integrity. You know. I've run a farm all my
parliamentary life, a small business if you like, and integrity

(06:26):
matters to me, and that again guided what I did
in parliament if you like. That just basic human decency
is important and there's nothing decent about telling a person.
I mean, current Shaw has one of the most difficult
jobs among them in the cabinet at the moment. You know,

(06:49):
some of the challenges in her portfolio are massive challenges
and it's not easy dealing with them. It must be emotionally,
very very stressful and difficult. And to have members of
the House suggesting that she's not sufficiently maury is I
find just outrageous and there's blatantly racist and there should

(07:12):
be no place for that in parliament.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Always good to talk. Thank you so much for your expertise,
Sir lockwood Smith, former National MP, former Speaker of the House.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
For more from Kerry wood and Mornings, listen live to
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