Kerre Woodham: Why don't we focus the headlines on the good news?

There is a common trope that if prisons worked, we wouldn't need them. And that if prison was a deterrent, people wouldn't commit crime. If prison was about rehabilitation then people would serve their term and then they would not reoffend.  

There's something incredibly depressing about prisons and the waste of human potential they represent – even brand-spanking new prisons. I did a fundraiser for Shine charity at the Mt Eden Remand Prison before it was opened for prisoners – before it was open for business, if you will. Brand spanking new, nobody had been in there and it was still one of the most depressing places I have ever been in.  

I've always thought that investing in young people and families to try and prevent them going to prison in the first place would be far preferable to spending hundreds of thousands per person keeping them locked up. But prisons aren't just about rehab, and they're not just about deterrence. They're also there to keep people away from other people. To keep people from committing violent assaults and rapes and manslaughters. They're there to stop people taking what doesn't belong to them. If you’re locked up, you can't go out ram-raiding. They're there to act as a punishment for those who have committed a grievous offence against society and against individuals. If you take a life, you have to pay for that, and that means the deprivation of your liberty and being locked away from society as a punishment.  

Law and order is always an election issue, and it's always a hot topic. Former Justice Minister Andrew Little, former Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis, wanted to reduce the prison population by 30% when they formed a coalition government with NZ First. NZ First who, of course, are big law and order campaigners, stymied them in part during the first three years when they were coalition partners, but by 2023, the prison population under Labour had reduced by 24%. Under Labour, incarceration rates plummeted from 213 people per 100,000 in 2018, which was nearly the highest in the OECD (which is nothing to be proud of), to 149 per 100,000.  

Now, that would be great if there was a commensurate fall in crime, but there wasn't. Victims of crime increased by 12% as the prison population reduced, victims of crime went up. Labour's reforms were part of an overall goal on their part to reduce the prison population by 30% by 2033, but it achieved that ten years earlier, and perhaps that's where it went wrong. When there aren't the rehabilitation services there, when there isn't the support there, when there isn't the intensive kind of help needed to either habilitate people into society or rehabilitate them, depending on how long term their offending has been, then what are these people going to do?

We all know how incredibly hard it is to break bad habits. We know what we should do. Do we do it? No. So imagine having been born into a life like that and then being told at the age of 24 to change your ways. Incredibly difficult to do it, especially without that kind of support. So typical of Labour, good ideas, good intentions - just no ability to deliver. The support wasn't there, the help wasn't there, the intensive support needed to help people turn their lives around wasn't there.  

So sensing which way the wind was blowing in the lead up to the ‘23 election, Chris Hipkins dumped the prison reduction targets. But it was all far too little, far too late with the dumpster fire. National, ACT, NZ First took advantage of the fact that victims of crime had gone up, that people's perceptions of crime were that we were living in a state of lawlessness and capitalised on that in their get tough on crime messages throughout the ‘23 election.  

Now we have the release of the fast-track projects and that's shown the Department of Corrections wants the ability to expand high security Auckland prison. They don't want to do it right

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carrywood of morning's podcast from news Talk,
said b there is a common.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Trope that if prisons worked, we wouldn't need them, and
that if prison was a deterrent, people wouldn't commit crime.
If prison was about rehabilitation, then people would serve their
term and then they would not reoffend. There is something
incredibly depressing about prisons and the waste of human potential

(00:35):
they represent, even brand spanking new prisons. I did a
fundraiser for Shine Charity at the Mounted and Remand Prison
before it was open for prisoners, before it was open
for business. If you will, brand spanking knew nobody had
been in there, and it was still one of the
most depressing places I have ever been in. I've always

(00:58):
thought that investing in young people and families to try
and prevent them going to prison in the first place
would be far preferable to spending hundreds of thousands per
person keeping them locked up. But prisons aren't just about
rehab and they're not just about deterrence. They're also there
to keep people away from other people, to keep people

(01:21):
from committing violent assaults and rapes and manslaughters. They're there
to stop people taking what doesn't belong to them. If
you're locked up, you can't go out ram rating. They're
there to act as a punishment for those who have
committed a grievous offense against society and against individuals. If
you take a life, you have to pay for that,

(01:44):
and that means a deprivation of your liberty and being
locked away from society as a punishment. Law and order
is always an election issue and it's always a hot topic.
Former Justice Minister Andrew Little, former Corrections Minister Calvin Davis
wanted to reduce the prison population by thirty percent when

(02:06):
formed a coalition government with New Zealand First. New Zealand First,
who of course are berg law an order campaigners, styming
them in part during the first three years when they
were coalition partners. But by twenty twenty three, the prison
population under Labour had reduced by twenty four percent. Under Labour,

(02:26):
incarceration rates plummeted from two hundred and thirteen people per
one hundred thy twenty eighteen, which was nearly the highest
in the OECD, which is nothing to be proud of,
to one hundred and forty nine per one hundred thousand.
Now that would be great if there was a commence
at fall and crime, but there wasn't. Victims of crime

(02:50):
increased by twelve percent. As the prison population reduced, victims
of crime went up. Labour's reforms were part of an
overall goal on their part to reduce the prison population
by the threads thirty percent by twenty thirty three, but
it achieved that ten years earlier, and perhaps that's where

(03:12):
it went wrong. When there isn't the rehabilitation services there,
when there isn't the support there, when there isn't the
intensive kind of help needed to either habilitate people into
society or rehabilitate them, depending on how long term the
offending has been, then it's what are these people going
to do? It?

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Is?

Speaker 2 (03:33):
We all know how incredibly hard it is to break
bad habits, We know what we should do. Do we
do it? No? So imagine having been born into a
life like that and then being told at the age
of twenty four to change your ways. Incredibly difficult to
do it, especially without that kind of support. So typical

(03:53):
of Labor. Good ideas, good intentions, just no ability to deliver.
The support wasn't there, The help wasn't there, The intensive
support needed to help people turn their lives around. Wasn't
there so sensing which way the wind was blowing. In
the lead up to the twenty three election, Chris Hipkins

(04:15):
dumped the prison reduction targets, but it was all far
too little, far too late. With the Dumpster Fire National Act.
New Zealand first took advantage of the fact that victims
of crime had gone up, that people's perceptions of crime
were that we were living in a state of lawlessness

(04:37):
and capitalized on that and they get tough on crime
messages throughout their twenty three election. Now we have the
release of the fast track projects and that's shown the
Department of Corrections wants the ability to expand high security
Auckland Prison. They don't want to do it right now.

(04:58):
They don't even want to do it next week or
next year. They just say that should they need to
increase capacity, they want to be able to get cracking
and do so so that they don't have to go
through the whole resource consent process. Opponents are up in arms.
The government's being accused of establishing a dangerous megaprism for

(05:21):
staff and inmates.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Wrong.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
It's not establishing anything. It just wants the capacity to
do so, which makes sense. What also makes sense as
the investment in the Social Investment Agency, and that is
that isn't getting nearly the same headlines as Department of
Corrections wanting the capacity to be able to increase the

(05:44):
prison population if they need to. It's not happening. They
just want the ability to do so should they need to.
What is happening is the Social Investment Agency being re established.
Bill English set it up, Labour took it over and
made it a well being agency and now it's been

(06:06):
taken back more under the vision that bil English had,
which is to use data, analytics and evidence to work
out how to intervene in the lives of the most
vulnerable in society, those who cause who are the root
of all problems, and working with the providers of social
services a to get the best result for these people

(06:29):
so it's not wasted human potential yet again, but also
reduce the burden on the taxpayer. And that's the way
bil English was able to sell it to his cabinet colleagues,
those who were like, oh, this kind of well meaning,
bloody social services biling to save us money. He's a
good old dry conservative when he needs to be at
or save us money in the long run, and it will.

(06:50):
If you invest in the most complex prevent them going
into prison in the first place, it is going to
save us a heck of a lot of money. So
I have absolutely no problem with Apartment of Corrections saying,
can we just keep this in our back pocket if
we need it? We can. We have the capacity to

(07:14):
increase the prison population if we have to. While at
the same time, there are boots on the ground who believe.
Nichola Willis believes passionately in the Social Investment Agency. She
worked with Bil English. She's an acolyte, she's a disciple,
she knows the cause and she believes in it. So

(07:37):
while you have money going into the Social Investment Agency
to try and prevent people from getting into the system,
why don't we focus the headlines on that? Why don't
we look at the good news instead of having screaming
headlines generated by activists who are furious about something that

(08:01):
hasn't happened, doesn't look like happening in the near future,
and may never happen. How about that?

Speaker 1 (08:07):
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