Kerre Woodham: Reasonable force and citizen's arrests

Retailers and members of the public will soon have more ability to detain shoplifters and thieves under beefed up citizen's arrest powers. At 2pm today, the government's expected to announce a range of measures aimed at curbing rising retail theft, which have been proposed by a Ministerial Advisory Group formed to address retail crime.  

It's pretty clear what the advisory group is looking for. The old rules around citizen’s arrests were absurd. Under the current legislation, making a citizen's arrest or detaining an offender could only occur at night between 9pm and 6am, because of course, there's no such thing as daylight robbery. Wrong. The Crimes Act also stated a warrantless arrest could be made by anyone if the offender was committing a crime for which the maximum punishment was at least three years in prison. So, if you're going in to protect somebody who was being assaulted, for example. It was also understood the value of the item being stolen had to be worth at least $1000. What if I went to nab Golriz Ghahraman while she was shoplifting $1000 dress at Scotties, but it was on sale? Then what? What a conundrum. Do I step in or do I not? Absurd, utter nonsense.  

The changes were intended to enable shop owners or security guards to prevent a thief from leaving a retail store with the stolen goods without risking being charged for using force. Ministers Goldsmith and McKee are expected to explain the application of reasonable force in those scenarios at the 2pm stand up. It was understood that the proposed changes are intended to come into force this year, wouldn't have age limitations, and wouldn't require a minimum price for the stolen items before a citizen's arrest could be made.  

Former Police Minister Stuart Nash told Mike Hosking Breakfast this morning that like everyone, he's sick of seeing people getting away with thumbing their noses at the community: 

“You got a situation Mike, where if you steal stuff, which is, you know, obviously you're stealing something over $1000 that’s pretty serious. If you’re just shoplifting, then the cost of prosecuting someone is substantial compared to the crime that's being committed. But what you've ended up with is a really terrible situation where these guys just get away with it.  

“So what we were seriously looking at is some form of fine, or something along those lines, which was proportionate. With the citizen's arrest, yeah you know, I’m a fan, there's no doubt about that. But it's got to be proportionate. You know, we don't want to get to a stage where big tough guys like yourself are using this to beat the crap out of someone.” 

No, and that's fair enough. But that has always been the thorniest of issues. There was a real spate of farmers getting into all sorts of trouble for defending their properties and the use of reasonable force was the question being debated. What was forceful and what was not, but I think we've all had a guts full of people brazenly getting away with stealing stuff. Two fingers to the shop owner, one finger to society. Even the ones who aren't causing any physical harm ,the ones who are just walking and grabbing what they want and walking out.  

It's an outrage, they're sneering at people who are doing their best, who are going to work, who are trying to budget, who are trying to squeeze every last cent out of their wallets to pay the household groceries, and then they just watch as people march by with a trolley full of crap that they load into the boot of somebody's car and off. I want to see them stopped. I want to see them stopped and the people who stop them be able to walk home and think, well, that was a job well done.  

But two words. Austin Hemmings. Austin Hemmings was the brave, decent man who stepped in one ordinary after workday in 2008, to help a woman who was in clear distress and who had called out for help after a man confronted and threatened her. And so he did. He went in to help this woman and for doing the right thing, this husband and father of three was stabbed in the chest and died. He was awarded the Bravery Star, New Zealand's second highest award for bravery in 2011, and his killer will be coming up for parole either this year or the next.  

So I want to see the community able to fight back and to work together to stop thugs and thieves, but I really don't want to see another family having to live with the loss of a good and decent man. And what's proportional force? Remember, the Sheriff of Ngawi? This was a man in a coastal community in Wairarapa and like the rest of us, he’d had a guts full of lowlifes coming over the hill, into their community, ransacking people's holiday homes and taking what they wanted. By the time you called the police, these thugs had put their goods up on trade me and had made their fortune

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be so.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
Retailers and members of the public will soon have more
ability to detain shoplifters and thieves under beefed up Citizens
Arrest PAS. At two o'clock today, the government's expected to
announce a range of measures aimed at curbing rising retail theft,
which have been proposed by a ministerial Advisory Group formed

(00:33):
in July to address retail crime. It's pretty clear what
the advisory group is looking for. The old rules around citizens'
arrests were absurd. Under the current legislation, making a citizen's
arrest or detaining an offender could only occur at night
between nine pm and six am, because, of course, there's

(00:56):
no such thing as daylight robbery.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Wrong.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
The Crimes Act also stated a warrantless arrest could be
made by anyone if the defender was committing a crime
for which the maximum punishment was at least three years
in prison. So if you're going in to protect somebody
who was being assaulted, for example. It was also understood
the value of the item being stolen had to be

(01:20):
worth at least one thousand dollars. Also, what if I
went to nab Gorrey's Garriman while she was shoplifting a
thousand dollar dress at Scotti's but it was on sale?
Then what what a conundrum? Do I step in or
do I not? Absurd utter nonsense. The changes were intended
to enable shop owners or security guards to prevent a

(01:44):
thief from leaving a retail store with the stolen goods
without risking being charged for using force. Ministers Goldsmith and
McKee are expected to explain the application of reasonable force
in those scenarios. At the two o'clock stand up. It
was understood that the proposed changes, intended to come into

(02:06):
force this year, wouldn't have age limitations and wouldn't require
a minimum price for the stolen items before a citizens
arrest could be made. Former Police Minister Stuart Nash told
Mike Cosking this morning that like everyone, he's sick of
seeing people getting away with thumbing their noses at the community.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
You've got a situation, Mike, where if you steal stuff,
which is you know, obviously something that every house to
does that's pretty serious, could just shop of them. Then
the cost of prosecuting someone is substantial. Competed to the
crime it's being committed. But what you've ended up with
is in a really terrible situation where these guys just
get away with it. So what we were seriously looking
at is some form of fine or something along those lines,

(02:49):
which is proportionate with a citizens arrest. Though yeah, you know,
I'm a fan, there's no doubt about that, but it's
got to be proportionate. You know. We don't want to
get to a stage where big tough guys like yourself
are using this to beat the crap cut someone.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Not and that's fair enough, But that has always been
the thorniest of issues. There was a real space of
farmers getting into all sorts of trouble for defending their properties,
and the use of reasonable force was the question being debated.
What was reasonable, what was not. But I think we've

(03:23):
all had a guts full of people brazenly getting away
with stealing stuff. Two fingers to the shop owner, one
finger to society, even the ones who aren't causing any
physical harm, the ones who are just walking and grabbing
what they want and walking out. It's an outrage. They're
sneering at people who are doing their best, who are

(03:45):
going to work, who are trying to budget, who are
trying to squeeze every last cent out of their wallets
to pay the household groceries, and then they just get
They watch as people march by with a trolley full
of crap that they load into the boot of somebody's
car and head off. I want to see them stopped.

(04:05):
I want to say, see them stopped and the people
who stopped them be able to walk home and think, well,
that was a job well done. But two words. Austin Hemmings.
Austin Hemings was the brave, decent man who stepped in
one ordinary after work day in two thousand and eight,
so seventeen years ago, to help a woman who was

(04:26):
in clear distress and who had called up for help
after a man confronted and threatened her. And so he did,
he went and to help this woman. And for doing
the right thing, this husband and father of three was
stabbed in the chest and died. His family was awarded
the Bravery Star. I mean he was awarded it. They

(04:48):
collected it New Zealand's second highest award for bravery in
twenty eleven. And his killer will be coming up for
parole either this year or the next So I want
to see the community able to fight back and to
work together to stop thugs and thieves. But I really
don't want to see another family having to live with
the loss of a good and decent man. And what's

(05:12):
proportional force? And this is what I come back to
remember the Sheriff of Nawi, this was a man and
a coastal community and whited upper and like the rest
of the residents, he had had a guts full of
low lives coming over the hill into their community, which
was pretty much cut off. There was a sea on
one side, one road in one road, you know the

(05:34):
road was there was just one road in and out.
So they'd ransacked people's holiday homes. They'd ransacked the homes
of the people who lived there. There is only a
small population in this coastal community. Take what they wanted.
It had happened numerous occasions. By the time he called
the police, these thugs had put the goods up on

(05:56):
trade me and it made their fortune.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
You know.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
By the time the police got there, it was a
remote coastal community. So they got together, the townsfolk of
Nahi and the sheriff of Lowi fired a gun across
the bows of the stolen car that these thugs were
attempting to make their getaway in. And for that he

(06:21):
went to court. He was fined three thousand dollars and
he was forced to hand over his gun. The year before,
a Morensville farmer who fired his shotgun over the heads
of two men trying to steal petrol, not for the
first time. His farm had been burgled a number of occasions,
so he fired a shot over their heads, he says,

(06:43):
to let them know that we were there. He said
he'd used the gun to protect his wife because we
didn't know what to expect at twelve forty five in
the morning. It was never fired in anger, just to
let them know that we were there. Now, for those
of you who don't remember the Beverly Bohmer case, who

(07:04):
it was the most horrific home invasion of a remote
farmhouse where this poor woman and her husband were in
their homes, and it was the most violent, awful, dreadful
assault that ended up in Beverly's murder. Every to every townsfolk,

(07:28):
every person living in the country had that seared into
their consciousness. So when you hear people ransacking your farm
at twelve forty five, effectively the middle of the night.
You don't know what to expect. I think firing a
shot over their heads is a bloody polite way of saying,
get off my farm, given the history, given what was

(07:51):
going on, given the fact that the police weren't able
to help. Ultimately, the Mournsville farmer wasn't prosecuted, but was
a hell of a lot of angst for the farmer
and his family. So yes, I wanted to see us
be able to defend ourselves, but I want to know
what reasonable forces. I personally think firing a gun over

(08:12):
the heads of some low lives is perfectly reasonable. Firing
a gun at a getaway car, I think is perfectly
reasonable when it's not the first time, when the police
cannot help, perfectly reasonable. But I do want to see
us make more use of technology too. Supermarkets should be

(08:36):
investing in the software that prevents thieves leaving the stores
with trolleys and armloads of stolen groceries. That technology exists.
I can understand risking my life to protect the life
of another, and I hope that I would be as
brave as Austin Hemmings and do so. But risking my
life to protect a supermarket's profits, yet not so much.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
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