April 1, 2025 • 13 mins
Auckland's chance of hosting the next America's Cup has gone the way of the wind.
Auckland Unlimited confirmed yesterday that the city is unable to proceed with its bid for the 2027 event, as the Government isn’t contributing any funding.
AUT Sailing Professor and former world champion sailor, Mark Orams told Kerre Woodham that the professionalisation of sport has resulted in finances playing a more significant role when it comes to decision making.
He says New Zealand lagged behind the trend as much of our sport remained amateur, but sailing has now caught up to the transition.
“The days of hosting the America’s Cup or having Team New Zealand sponsored by a family of five New Zealand sponsors are now gone.”
“The costs associated with both mounting a competitive campaign and hosting a major international sporting event are just beyond our ability to fund within New Zealand.”
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing the next America's Cup
will not be held in Auckland. Auckland Council's Events aarm
Auckland Unlimited confirmed yesterday the city's unable to proceed with
its bid for the twenty twenty seven event, given the
government deciding not to put in its share of the money.
Aut sailing professor, former New Zealand and World champion sailor
(00:34):
Team New Zealand member, author, environmentalist and professor of Sport
and Recreation at the Auckland University of Technology, Mark Worams
joins me. Now, very good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Good morning carry Sometimes I forget thanks for the introduction.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sometimes I forget how flash you are until I read
out the full thing.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah, we should probably abbreviate that, but very kind, Thank you, Well.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Good to talk to you. We seem to talk about
every two or three years about the feasibility of holding
Ameresk Cup event.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
One of those gifts that keeps on giving career.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's different times now, it's not you know, twenty five
years ago, is it.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
No, it is different times and we recognize.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
I think if we look more broadly at the sporting environment,
the professionalization of sport is meaning that money becomes more
and more significant in terms of the decision making around
things like the hosting of special events or where athletes go.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
We see that.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Across the sporting environment we've probably been historically a little
immune from it, or at least lagged in our following
of international trends, where most of our sport in New
Zealand still remains amateur. And then we see the odd
instance of one of our really talented athletes, Steven Adams
is a good example, going offshore and no longer competing
(01:54):
for New Zealand or in New Zealand, and we're proud
of him because he represents New Zealand and our talent
and one of the largest sporting professional sporting competitions in
the world, in this case the NBA. So I think
sale caught up in a similar kind of transition, and
that the days of hosting the America's Cup or having
Team New Zealand sponsored by a family of five New
(02:15):
Zealand sponsors are now gone because the costs associated with
both mounting a competitive campaign and hosting a major international
sporting event are just beyond our ability to fund with
the New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah they are, and that's just the way it is. Unfortunately.
God remember the Red Sox and everybody buying their Red
Sox and Nana's donating bits of their pension to fund
America's I mean, I know, it was a beautiful time.
It was an innocent time and that is over.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, it was a very special time, You're right.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And I was absolutely privileged to be a very small
part of that era.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
And absolutely loved it.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
And actually we farewelled one of our great sailing mates,
Matthew Mitchell yesterday at a funeral, and there was a
lot of talk from some of the if you like,
the previous generation sailors like my about we were so
lucky that we came through that period where sailing was
an adventure as much as it was a sort of
a profession. But now it is very much a profession
(03:19):
and the sporting era, the money involved and the influence
that that money has on the decision making.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I suppose for us a bit.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Older generation, old school, we miss the purer times, I suppose,
where it was done all for the love of the sport.
But there is a reality that we face, and that
is that in this world now, these kinds of sporting
events are hugely expensive and inherently professional, and so that
dominates decisions such as where the thing's going to be hosted.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
There's always talk about the economic benefits it brings to
the city that hosts it, but in more recent times,
apart from Auckland, we haven't seen that many cities want
to take it back again.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
No, and this again interesting For example, as another case
in point here the state of Victoria and Melbourne in
Australia making the decision to walk away from hosting the
Commonwealth Games is another example of public agencies really questioning
the level of investment involved and the return on that
(04:23):
investment for their taxpayers or rate payers as the case
may be. And so this is part of the broader
sporting landscape that we have that for smaller nations, particularly
nations that are geographically isolated from where most of the
money is in a commercial sense, and also most importantly
(04:44):
where most of the audiences. Remembering that media including social
media eyes live eyes on an event, a sporting event
is a very competitive environment now as the diversification of
sport has really sort of taken hold. So it's tough
down under here in New Zealand and Australia to host
(05:04):
these kinds of events to attract the sort of money
and eyeballs that are needed to make them a commercially
viable proposition.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
What about the I mean, I do hear a lot
from the marine industry saying they benefit enormously from having
the America's Cup here, that you know that it's such
a boost for a local economy. Again, I just can't
see the numbers stacking up. It seems that depending on
who's commissioned the report, you get the numbers you want.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Yes, well, it is one of those things that is
very difficult to put numbers around because there are so
many downstream impacts. What is clear is that there is
no question that hosting a substantive sporting event does have
substantive downstream benefits. What the actual dollar amount is on
that is much more difficult to actually nail down accurately,
(05:57):
because we have all of the multiplier effects. We have
effects that are reputational, that are brand awareness, that that
in terms of just the culture and vibe of a city,
those things are very different. They're intangible, so they're very
difficult to put a dollar figure on, but there's no
question that that beneficial anybody who's been around a city
(06:18):
that's had a portfolio of events, and indeed, I think
Melbourne's a great example of a city that's really positioned
itself around that, and that adds to a sense pride
at vibrancy and the economic benefits for the hospitality sector,
for tourism and related industries. And you refer to the
marine industry, New Zealand has a wonderful international reputation in
(06:43):
terms of high tech marine industry and that's something that
has no question been enhanced, arguably even created by our
success in the sport of sailing. Both America's Cup read
around the world, raiss that history and the skill set
that we've developed for all of those has really developed
an opportunity for us economically. The America's Cup adds huge
(07:07):
value to that because firstly, it provides it provides customers
and business super yachts that come down here, they go
through refits, they employ staff to come on board all
of those sorts of things. But also when they have
a good experience and they engage with New Zealanders and
they return back to wherever they're from. That ambassadorial kind
(07:29):
of impact is really beneficial for us too. You go
to any super yacht around the world, now you will
find Kiwis on their crew, and the Kiwis are there
because of the reputation that we have and that's been
created through our success in the sport of sailing. So
there are all of these multiplier or downstream effects that
occur as a consequence of success in an event like
the America's Cup. But the numbers in the end have
(07:53):
to stack up for hosting that event, and at this
point in time, they don't seem to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
No, and it is a shame. You're so right with Melbourne,
but when you look at the tennis and the Formula
one and you know they've got some great events, but
they they clearly have decided or did decide that the
Commonwealth Games was not going to give them the cost
benefit that established events and regular events like the Formula
one and the tennis bring to the city. So it
(08:19):
does get down to the numbers, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
And it does, and I think especially your politicians, and
when we heard that in the response from the Prime
Minister yesterday to the news about the twenty seven America's
Cup not being hosted here, Politicians are now having to be,
especially in the current economic environment, much more aware of
their accountability to the taxpayer.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And that's probably appropriate.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
And so in the current circumstances we find ourselves in economically,
and that's not just in New Zealand as an economy,
but Auckland as well, means that they're having to scrutinize
those investments really really carefully. So they look at things
like well, hosting sale GP for example, or hosting the
Ocean Race stopover. Those things are relatively cheap in the
(09:07):
sense that they're only sort of a few millions of
dollars of investment to host that event, whereas the America's
Cup is a much more substantive investment. And I guess
it's just a bridge too far at this particular point
in time in our current economic circumstances.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Just quickly, when the rockets were built, you know, that
was seen as fanciful and a complete waste of American
taxpayer dollars, but it brought all sorts of mainstream benefits,
you know, all sorts of products into mainstream use as
a result of the science involved and the innovations made,
and you could argue that some of these American cup
(09:44):
boats are the marine equivalent of rockets, and have they
been able to bring all kinds of benefits to the
marine industry as a result of the innovation and as
a result of the what ifs and as a result
of the deep pockets.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Absolutely, no question, we would not have Rocket Lab as
a New Zealand original company if we didn't have the
skill set and the experience and the innovation that has
come through the marine industry and our ability to lead
in the use of opposite technologies in the design and
the building of really substantive high tech machines, and that
(10:24):
that has come from not just the America's Cup but
the marine industry more generally. And it's interesting that many
of the people who have their background in the America's
Cup and in boat building in New Zealand end up
form have end up forming the core of the engineers,
the designers and the builders in Rocket Labs. So you know,
these are the sorts of crossovers of technology that come
(10:44):
from pushing at the high end of a competitive sport, which,
due to its competitive nature, means that you get innovation,
you get breakthroughs. You get opportunities that are created now
the explosion of foiling across the world as an example
in the marine industry, so putting vessels up on hydrofoils,
not just yachts, we're seeing now that go into faery services.
(11:06):
We're seeing it go into being potentially applications for the
cruising yacht area through marine transport and so on. Those
things and the ability to apply them in other contexts
all come from the America's Cup breakthrough that team New
Zealand made in hydrofoiling in the San Francisco Cup in
twenty thirteen. So these are the sort of downstream impacts
(11:28):
that can come from the technology, the innovation and the
risk taking that comes from a competitive environment like the
America's Cup.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Will we see it in Auckland again.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I think we could. I'm forever the optimist. I'm a
New Zealand sailor who just you know, is a huge,
hugely proud of our maritime heritage and our success and
the sport of sailing. When I talk to people internationally,
there's probably only one other sport where we have this reputation,
and that's rugby. You know, internationally, New Zealand rugby players
(12:03):
are revered and respected, and the same as through for
New Zealand sailors. We are respected worldwide because of our innovation,
because of our hard work ethic, because of our ability
to be successful with less resources than the big players,
you know, globally. So that I think plays out in
a way that we could successfully defend the America's Cup
(12:27):
in twenty twenty seven. Team New Zealand could do that,
and if they do, that gives an opportunity to have
another crack at it. So I know that we've sort
of in effect lost two opportunities to host the America's
Cup last time and next time, But if we win
in twenty twenty seven, then there'll be another opportunity, and
our economic situation may have changed by then we may
(12:47):
be in a position where we have both the ability
and the enthusiasm to put money forward that might be
needed to host the thirty ninth America's Cup.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Thank you so much. That is Mark Orm's, a ut
sailing professor.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
For more from Carrie Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing the next America's Cup
will not be held in Auckland. Auckland Council's Events aarm
Auckland Unlimited confirmed yesterday the city's unable to proceed with
its bid for the twenty twenty seven event, given the
government deciding not to put in its share of the money.
Aut sailing professor, former New Zealand and World champion sailor
(00:34):
Team New Zealand member, author, environmentalist and professor of Sport
and Recreation at the Auckland University of Technology, Mark Worams
joins me. Now, very good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Good morning carry Sometimes I forget thanks for the introduction.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sometimes I forget how flash you are until I read
out the full thing.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah, we should probably abbreviate that, but very kind, Thank you, Well.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Good to talk to you. We seem to talk about
every two or three years about the feasibility of holding
Ameresk Cup event.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
One of those gifts that keeps on giving career.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's different times now, it's not you know, twenty five
years ago, is it.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
No, it is different times and we recognize.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
I think if we look more broadly at the sporting environment,
the professionalization of sport is meaning that money becomes more
and more significant in terms of the decision making around
things like the hosting of special events or where athletes go.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
We see that.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Across the sporting environment we've probably been historically a little
immune from it, or at least lagged in our following
of international trends, where most of our sport in New
Zealand still remains amateur. And then we see the odd
instance of one of our really talented athletes, Steven Adams
is a good example, going offshore and no longer competing
(01:54):
for New Zealand or in New Zealand, and we're proud
of him because he represents New Zealand and our talent
and one of the largest sporting professional sporting competitions in
the world, in this case the NBA. So I think
sale caught up in a similar kind of transition, and
that the days of hosting the America's Cup or having
Team New Zealand sponsored by a family of five New
(02:15):
Zealand sponsors are now gone because the costs associated with
both mounting a competitive campaign and hosting a major international
sporting event are just beyond our ability to fund with
the New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah they are, and that's just the way it is. Unfortunately.
God remember the Red Sox and everybody buying their Red
Sox and Nana's donating bits of their pension to fund
America's I mean, I know, it was a beautiful time.
It was an innocent time and that is over.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, it was a very special time, You're right.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And I was absolutely privileged to be a very small
part of that era.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
And absolutely loved it.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
And actually we farewelled one of our great sailing mates,
Matthew Mitchell yesterday at a funeral, and there was a
lot of talk from some of the if you like,
the previous generation sailors like my about we were so
lucky that we came through that period where sailing was
an adventure as much as it was a sort of
a profession. But now it is very much a profession
(03:19):
and the sporting era, the money involved and the influence
that that money has on the decision making.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I suppose for us a bit.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Older generation, old school, we miss the purer times, I suppose,
where it was done all for the love of the sport.
But there is a reality that we face, and that
is that in this world now, these kinds of sporting
events are hugely expensive and inherently professional, and so that
dominates decisions such as where the thing's going to be hosted.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
There's always talk about the economic benefits it brings to
the city that hosts it, but in more recent times,
apart from Auckland, we haven't seen that many cities want
to take it back again.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
No, and this again interesting For example, as another case
in point here the state of Victoria and Melbourne in
Australia making the decision to walk away from hosting the
Commonwealth Games is another example of public agencies really questioning
the level of investment involved and the return on that
(04:23):
investment for their taxpayers or rate payers as the case
may be. And so this is part of the broader
sporting landscape that we have that for smaller nations, particularly
nations that are geographically isolated from where most of the
money is in a commercial sense, and also most importantly
(04:44):
where most of the audiences. Remembering that media including social
media eyes live eyes on an event, a sporting event
is a very competitive environment now as the diversification of
sport has really sort of taken hold. So it's tough
down under here in New Zealand and Australia to host
(05:04):
these kinds of events to attract the sort of money
and eyeballs that are needed to make them a commercially
viable proposition.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
What about the I mean, I do hear a lot
from the marine industry saying they benefit enormously from having
the America's Cup here, that you know that it's such
a boost for a local economy. Again, I just can't
see the numbers stacking up. It seems that depending on
who's commissioned the report, you get the numbers you want.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Yes, well, it is one of those things that is
very difficult to put numbers around because there are so
many downstream impacts. What is clear is that there is
no question that hosting a substantive sporting event does have
substantive downstream benefits. What the actual dollar amount is on
that is much more difficult to actually nail down accurately,
(05:57):
because we have all of the multiplier effects. We have
effects that are reputational, that are brand awareness, that that
in terms of just the culture and vibe of a city,
those things are very different. They're intangible, so they're very
difficult to put a dollar figure on, but there's no
question that that beneficial anybody who's been around a city
(06:18):
that's had a portfolio of events, and indeed, I think
Melbourne's a great example of a city that's really positioned
itself around that, and that adds to a sense pride
at vibrancy and the economic benefits for the hospitality sector,
for tourism and related industries. And you refer to the
marine industry, New Zealand has a wonderful international reputation in
(06:43):
terms of high tech marine industry and that's something that
has no question been enhanced, arguably even created by our
success in the sport of sailing. Both America's Cup read
around the world, raiss that history and the skill set
that we've developed for all of those has really developed
an opportunity for us economically. The America's Cup adds huge
(07:07):
value to that because firstly, it provides it provides customers
and business super yachts that come down here, they go
through refits, they employ staff to come on board all
of those sorts of things. But also when they have
a good experience and they engage with New Zealanders and
they return back to wherever they're from. That ambassadorial kind
(07:29):
of impact is really beneficial for us too. You go
to any super yacht around the world, now you will
find Kiwis on their crew, and the Kiwis are there
because of the reputation that we have and that's been
created through our success in the sport of sailing. So
there are all of these multiplier or downstream effects that
occur as a consequence of success in an event like
the America's Cup. But the numbers in the end have
(07:53):
to stack up for hosting that event, and at this
point in time, they don't seem to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
No, and it is a shame. You're so right with Melbourne,
but when you look at the tennis and the Formula
one and you know they've got some great events, but
they they clearly have decided or did decide that the
Commonwealth Games was not going to give them the cost
benefit that established events and regular events like the Formula
one and the tennis bring to the city. So it
(08:19):
does get down to the numbers, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
And it does, and I think especially your politicians, and
when we heard that in the response from the Prime
Minister yesterday to the news about the twenty seven America's
Cup not being hosted here, Politicians are now having to be,
especially in the current economic environment, much more aware of
their accountability to the taxpayer.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And that's probably appropriate.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
And so in the current circumstances we find ourselves in economically,
and that's not just in New Zealand as an economy,
but Auckland as well, means that they're having to scrutinize
those investments really really carefully. So they look at things
like well, hosting sale GP for example, or hosting the
Ocean Race stopover. Those things are relatively cheap in the
(09:07):
sense that they're only sort of a few millions of
dollars of investment to host that event, whereas the America's
Cup is a much more substantive investment. And I guess
it's just a bridge too far at this particular point
in time in our current economic circumstances.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Just quickly, when the rockets were built, you know, that
was seen as fanciful and a complete waste of American
taxpayer dollars, but it brought all sorts of mainstream benefits,
you know, all sorts of products into mainstream use as
a result of the science involved and the innovations made,
and you could argue that some of these American cup
(09:44):
boats are the marine equivalent of rockets, and have they
been able to bring all kinds of benefits to the
marine industry as a result of the innovation and as
a result of the what ifs and as a result
of the deep pockets.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Absolutely, no question, we would not have Rocket Lab as
a New Zealand original company if we didn't have the
skill set and the experience and the innovation that has
come through the marine industry and our ability to lead
in the use of opposite technologies in the design and
the building of really substantive high tech machines, and that
(10:24):
that has come from not just the America's Cup but
the marine industry more generally. And it's interesting that many
of the people who have their background in the America's
Cup and in boat building in New Zealand end up
form have end up forming the core of the engineers,
the designers and the builders in Rocket Labs. So you know,
these are the sorts of crossovers of technology that come
(10:44):
from pushing at the high end of a competitive sport, which,
due to its competitive nature, means that you get innovation,
you get breakthroughs. You get opportunities that are created now
the explosion of foiling across the world as an example
in the marine industry, so putting vessels up on hydrofoils,
not just yachts, we're seeing now that go into faery services.
(11:06):
We're seeing it go into being potentially applications for the
cruising yacht area through marine transport and so on. Those
things and the ability to apply them in other contexts
all come from the America's Cup breakthrough that team New
Zealand made in hydrofoiling in the San Francisco Cup in
twenty thirteen. So these are the sort of downstream impacts
(11:28):
that can come from the technology, the innovation and the
risk taking that comes from a competitive environment like the
America's Cup.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Will we see it in Auckland again.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I think we could. I'm forever the optimist. I'm a
New Zealand sailor who just you know, is a huge,
hugely proud of our maritime heritage and our success and
the sport of sailing. When I talk to people internationally,
there's probably only one other sport where we have this reputation,
and that's rugby. You know, internationally, New Zealand rugby players
(12:03):
are revered and respected, and the same as through for
New Zealand sailors. We are respected worldwide because of our innovation,
because of our hard work ethic, because of our ability
to be successful with less resources than the big players,
you know, globally. So that I think plays out in
a way that we could successfully defend the America's Cup
(12:27):
in twenty twenty seven. Team New Zealand could do that,
and if they do, that gives an opportunity to have
another crack at it. So I know that we've sort
of in effect lost two opportunities to host the America's
Cup last time and next time, But if we win
in twenty twenty seven, then there'll be another opportunity, and
our economic situation may have changed by then we may
(12:47):
be in a position where we have both the ability
and the enthusiasm to put money forward that might be
needed to host the thirty ninth America's Cup.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Thank you so much. That is Mark Orm's, a ut
sailing professor.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
For more from Carrie Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com