Kerre Woodham: Prisons are evidence of failure, but what's the alternative?

Prisons to me are tangible evidence of failure. Failure of a person to do the right thing, failure of family, of community, of society. Before they've even been used, they smell like failure. I’ve emceed a fundraiser for the Shine domestic violence prevention charity at Mount Eden's remand prison before the first prisoner had stepped foot inside it. And even though it was brand-spanking new and done to the very best of the budget and to the specs, you just felt like failure the moment you walked in there.  

It would be so much better to spend the 150K per year that we spend on average on each prisoner, on at-risk kids to prevent them becoming just another statistic, perpetuating the cycle. But prisons are a necessary evil because some people do evil things. And because if people aren't seen to be punished for doing evil things, society's fragile contract breaks down.  

Remember the case of the 26 year old drunk who had been reported for dangerous driving? As he went from point A to point B, from his work drinks to a mate's house to drink more while throwing back premixed drinks in his car, he slammed into the vehicle of an innocent young woman, killing her. Jake Hamlin got 12 months home detention, 200 hours community work, disqualified from driving for a year, and ordered to pay $8k in reparation. And that just doesn't seem enough. But because you and I want to see a life mean something, we want to see that when you recklessly take the life of another person, you have to pay for that. And you have to be seen to pay for that. And the payment has to be significant. You've taken another person's life. A person with hope and dreams and potential and family who loved her. And what? You sit at home for 12 months? So because I want to see him punished, we need more prisons.  

Our prison population looks set to increase by more than 30% in the next decade. I think we'll be lucky if we can keep it at 30%. Given the social issues over the past five years, it will be bloody lucky if we can keep it at 30%. And because we can't build prisons fast enough, that may well lead to double bunking, which will lead to more issues, and so on and so forth. The previous National government had planned to build more prisons, but Labour put the kibosh on that. They decided they would depopulate prisons. A policy that didn't work so well, as Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell told Ryan Bridge this morning: 

“I think that we've been really clear that we are focused on public safety, and under the previous government, the only target they had around public safety was reducing the prison population by 30%, and we saw a massive increase in violent crime. So there are some people that don't want to stick to the rules that think they're above the, above the law, that are often recidivist violent offenders, and the safest place to put them is into a correction system or facility where then we can start to work on rehabilitation and hope that they rejoin society and make good decisions in their lives. There's a huge human cost and economic cost to having these people in the community and we've been very clear as a government that we're not going to tolerate that.” 

Yeah, I like his optimistic approach that there can be rehabilitation, and people can re-enter society when for a very long time, these people have been on the outer of society. They don't want to join society because that means they'd have to get a job, and turn up on time, and not sell drugs. Mark Mitchell said after year-on-year increases in violent crime since 2018, it was encouraging to see a reversal of that, with a 2% drop in numbers for 2024. He said violent crime increased by 51% between 2018 and 2023.  

So in October of last year, the prison population broke the 10,000 mark for the first time, and inmate numbers are expected to reach nearly 14,000 in the next decade. And that means we need more prisons. But even as Waikeria and Christchurch have begun expansion at their prisons, you've got a hikoi, organised by People Against Prisons Aotearoa, marching on Parliament.  

What on Earth do they expect people to do? What is the alternative? What do the Tamatha Pauls and the People Against Prisons Aotearoa want to have happened to somebody like Jake Hamlin? Or somebody who so violently assaults his partner, the mother of his children that she either ends up dead, or with life changing injuries? What do they expect to have happen then? What do you expect when somebody coward punches? Or when somebody is making an absolute fortune by selling drugs and perpetuating misery? Getting young people hooked on drugs so that they've got more customers? Or when some sleazy ass uses their privilege —this has been the case recently— to rob people blind, to abuse their trust, wreck their companies, destroy livelihoods? What do they expect? That they're going to sit at

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks, he'd be.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Prisons to me are tangible evidence of failure, failure of
a person to do the right thing, failure of family,
of community, of society. Before they've even been used. They
smell like failure. I am c a function a fundraiser

(00:32):
for the Shine Domestic violence prevention charity at Mount Eden's
Remand Prison before the first prisoner had stepped foot inside it.
And even though it was brand spanking new and done
to the very best of the budget and to the specs,

(00:54):
you just felt like failure the moment you walked in there.
It would be so much better to spend the one
hundred and fifty k per year that we spend on
average on each prisoner on at risk kids to prevent
them becoming just another statistic perpetuating the cycle. But prisons

(01:18):
are a necessary evil because some people do evil things,
and because if people aren't seen to be punished for
doing evil things, society's fragile contract breaks down. We were
talking earlier this year, remember the case of the twenty
six year old drunk who had been reported for dangerous

(01:38):
driving as he went from point A to point b
from his work drinks to a mates house to drink more.
While throwing back premixed drinks in his car, he slammed
into the vehicle of an innocent young woman, killing her.
Jake Hamlin got twelve months home detention, two hundred hours
community work, disqualified from driving for a year in order

(02:01):
to pay eight K in reparation. And that just doesn't
seem enough. But because you and I want to see
a life mean something, we want to see that when
you recklessly take the life of another person, you have

(02:22):
to pay for that, and you have to be seen
to pay for that, and the payment has to be significant.
You've taken another person's life, a person with hope and
dreams and potential and family who loved her, and what
you sit at home for twelve months. So because I

(02:44):
want to see him punished, we need more prisons. Our
prison population looks set to increase by more than thirty
percent in the next decade. I think we'll be lucky
if we can keep it at thirty given the social
issues over the past five years, that will be bloody lucky.

(03:05):
If we can keep it at thirty percent. And because
we can't build prisons fast enough, that may well lead
to double bunking, which will lead to more issues, and
so on and so forth. The previous National government had
planned to build more prisons, but Labor put the caibosh
on that. They decided they would depopulate prisons, a policy
that didn't work so well as corrections. Minister Mark Mitchell

(03:27):
told Ryan Bridge this morning.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
I think that we've been really clear that we are
focused on public safety, and under the previous government, the
only target they had around public safety was reduced in
the prison population by thirty percent, and we saw a
mass of increase in violent crime. So there are some
people that don't want to stick to the rules, that
think they're above above the law. They are often residered
aus violent offenders, and the safest place to put them

(03:50):
is into a correction system or facility, where then we
can start to work on rehabilitation and hope that they
rejoin society and make good decisions in their lives. There's
a huge human cost and economic cost to having these
people in the community, and we've been very clear as
the government that we're not going to tolerate that.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah. I like his optimistic approach that there can be
rehabilitation and people can re enter society when for a
very long time these people have been on the altar
of society. They don't want to join society because that
means they'd have to get a job and turn up
on time and not sell drugs. Mirk Mitchell said after

(04:30):
year on year increases in violent crime since twenty eighteen,
it was encouraging to see a reversal of that with
a two percent drop in numbers for twenty twenty four.
He said violent crime increased by fifty one percent between
twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three. So in October of
last year, the prison population broke the ten k mark

(04:52):
for the first time. Inmate numbers are expected to reach
nearly fourteen thousand in the next decade, and that means
we need more prisons. But even as why Karria and
christ Church have begun expansion at their prisons. You've got
a hekuoi organized by People against Prisons altahor marching on Parliament.

(05:17):
What on earth do they expect people to do? What
is the alternative? What do the Tamotha Pauls and the
People against Prisons alterahor want to have happened to somebody
like Jake Hamlin or somebody who so violently assaults his partner,

(05:39):
the mother of his children that she ear that ends
up dead or with life changing injuries. What do they
expect to have happened?

Speaker 3 (05:48):
Then?

Speaker 2 (05:50):
What do you expect when somebody coward punctures or when
somebody is making an absolute fortune by selling drugs and
perpetuating misery, getting young people hooked on drugs so that
they've got more customers, Or when some sleazy uses as
privilege or her privilege this has been the case recently,

(06:10):
to rob people blind, to abuse their trust, wreck their companies,
destroy livelihoods. What do they expect that they're going to
sit at home for a year. I know that I
know that prisons represent failure, but not locking up people

(06:33):
is an even bigger failure.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
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