September 9, 2025 • 8 mins
New Zealand has long had a problem with alcohol abuse.
A report last year from the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research found that the total estimated harm from alcohol use costs $9.1 billion in a single year.
Peter Dunne argues the costs are a result of a decades-long failure in policy – saying that we need to do away with broad stroke approaches and target those prone to binge drinking.
He told Kerre Woodham that we should be targeting the response to those who are most affected by alcohol harm, and therefore making interventions early as opposed to a broad sweep that hasn’t worked.
Dunne says our cost of alcohol abuse is as high as it ever was.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from news Talks,
he'd be as.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We've been discussing the cost of alcohol abuse and alcohol
harm in this country is absolutely phenomenal. I referred to
an article written by Peter Dunnan Newsroom that argues that
these costs are a result of a decade's long failure
in policy. He says we need to do away with
the broad brush approach of reducing overall alcohol availability and
(00:32):
consumption and target those prone to binge drinking. Political commentator
and a former politico, Peter Dunn joins me, now, good
morning to you, Good morning carry As someone who is
prone or has been prone to binge drinking and is
not drinking. Now, I don't know what message you could
tell me that I would hear. Well.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I think that's part of the problem, and I think
that's why we've sort of opted for the broad brush approach,
which has affected a lot of people minimally and not
really affected those that it should be affecting. So I
think that we've got to really go back to basics,
think about how we first of all identify those who
are at risk of becoming problem drinkers and then develop
(01:15):
the strategies to deal with that, rather than just simply
continue with the broad sweep that we've done, which is
missing really the key target audience.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's really interesting when you say that during your time
at ALEC you did the survey and found that nine
percent of drinkers were drinking two thirds of the alcohol.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, that's right. That serio was done in nineteen seventy eight,
about the time that New Zealand alcohol consumption was peaking.
But I think the pattern of consumption won't have changed
basically over the years, even if the level has come down,
consistent with just about every country in the world, which
is driven by a whole lot of other factors, price
in particular.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And that's because you're putting the tax on to help
to help offset the harm, the economic harm that alcohol.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
But we're still doing The latest figure is nine point
one billion dollars cost and alcohol related harm last year.
About half of that was fe Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder FASD,
about DYSMA four billion. And yet until yesterday I see
just there was an announcement from the Associate Minister of
(02:21):
Health that the Fetal alcohol spectrum Disorder strategy is being revived.
He announced a whole new plan yesterday, which is good news,
but it's long overdue and it will make some critical
impact in that area.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, when you read about some of those people who
appear before the courts, who have committed horrific crimes, and
then you see how they came to have such poor
self control and such an inability to make choices, they
were a time bill waiting to happen from the time
they were in their mother's womb when the mother's fu
(02:57):
admit to drinking a bottle of bourbon a day, but
they've gone off the meth so yay for them.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, that's exactly the point. We we can identify now
at a fairly early stage, who these people are, and
we need to be wrapping the support around them and
the help to make sure, as you say, that the
time bomb doesn't explode. You take something like the multidisciplinary
study that Otigo's University has been doing for the last
forty odd years. They've got phenomenal data about at risk
(03:25):
groups and I'm pretty certain if they haven't got the
data about likely binge or problem drinkers, they could quickly
incorporate that in their study. And all I'm saying is
we should be using that data, targeting our response to
those who are most affected and therefore making the interventions early,
rather than this broad sweep which really sort of hasn't worked.
(03:49):
I mean, our cost of alcohol abuse is still as
high as it ever was.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, absolutely, even with the numbers of drinkers coming down.
Will there be a time do you think where the
where society recognizes the dangers, like our young people are
not drinking as much as they used to, and they're
not drinking in a harmful way as much as they
(04:13):
used to do as you're referenced, you know, that's happening
around the world, perhaps with social media, perhaps with cost
Will they eventually not be drinkers?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't think we'll ever get to that point, but
I think we will get to a point over time,
consistent with what's happening elsewhere where the sort of the
levels of consumption and the levels of understanding but improve.
I think that in the meantime, we're going to continue
to face the social problems. You know, you look at
(04:45):
the court records every day serious crime and the detail
that comes out there about the drinking behavior, and yet
that's sort of being left relatively unchecked. So that's why
I say that I think the time is now right
for a reassessment of our approach and to look at
a much more focused and targeted impact on those who
(05:06):
are the ones who are most seriously at risk most
other people for a variety of reasons. Better information about
health impacts cost other outlets. I mean, the problem there,
of course is the rise of illicit drug use, but
people are shifting out of the sole reliance on alcohol
(05:26):
that was once the case, and I think it's just
time that our policy becks caught up with that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
The ninety one percent who can drink sensibly and moderately,
I don't think they should be punished for enjoying and
to believery now and then.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Well, I think that's exactly the point I'm making. Yeah,
that our broad brush approach sort of treats everyone equally
at the moment, so the odd drinker is as serious
as the person who's been drinking every day. I think
that's nonsense.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think, sorry, you go on.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
There was a slogan developed some years ago by the
Ministry of Health when I was the Associate Minister. They
had this little sort of of acronym team which was
towards ending alcohol misuse, and I said, why don't why
don't we change it to towards enjoying alcohol moderately. Oh no,
you know that was contrary to all the thinking. But
(06:18):
I think that is the problem. We've we've demonized alcohol
for hundreds of years. We've we've now sort of transferred
that demonization to the whole of society, and for most
people it just doesn't wash. The messages just flow straight
over their heads because they're not adversely affected. And we're
missing the people we should be focusing on who do
(06:39):
need help and who are suffering, and whose families are suffering.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Because it's the women who agonize over having a couple
of gin and tonics on a Friday night before they
found out they were pregnant. They're the ones who stress
over the fegal alcohol syndrome, not the ones who think
right well and prey the duff Again, I'll give up
the meth and take to drinking bourbon. I can't see
how you reach them.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Well, I think you've got to be much more blunt
in your message, and I think you've got to accept
that you will be targeting some groups in society to
a greater extent than you would have previously, and that
might be uncomfortable, But if you want to make social
progress in terms of improving the outcomes for firstly them
and secondly their children, then I think there's no alternative
that the sort of fuzziness that we've had of you know,
(07:25):
let's all just consider each other and think about the
impacts of what we're doing. They just wash over people's
head and in certain circumstances have sort of no impact
at all. I mean, some years ago, there was an
extensive campaign on television Country Country, People Die on Country
Roads about people and country who is drinking too much.
(07:46):
It was being shown on TV at the very hours
that the people who it was targeted at were out
doing the drinking. A complete waste of time and money,
but it sort of looked good. It looked as though
we were concerned and doing something. And I think we've
just got to change our attitude and focus on actually
solutions that will work. If it does mean some pretty
(08:07):
harsh social targeting to get to the groups who are
at risk, Otherwise our figures aren't going to shift that dramatically.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I thank you very much for your time. Peter dunnpolitical commentator,
formerly Leader of the United Future, served as a minister
in former national and labor governments.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks A B from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from news Talks,
he'd be as.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We've been discussing the cost of alcohol abuse and alcohol
harm in this country is absolutely phenomenal. I referred to
an article written by Peter Dunnan Newsroom that argues that
these costs are a result of a decade's long failure
in policy. He says we need to do away with
the broad brush approach of reducing overall alcohol availability and
(00:32):
consumption and target those prone to binge drinking. Political commentator
and a former politico, Peter Dunn joins me, now, good
morning to you, Good morning carry As someone who is
prone or has been prone to binge drinking and is
not drinking. Now, I don't know what message you could
tell me that I would hear. Well.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I think that's part of the problem, and I think
that's why we've sort of opted for the broad brush approach,
which has affected a lot of people minimally and not
really affected those that it should be affecting. So I
think that we've got to really go back to basics,
think about how we first of all identify those who
are at risk of becoming problem drinkers and then develop
(01:15):
the strategies to deal with that, rather than just simply
continue with the broad sweep that we've done, which is
missing really the key target audience.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's really interesting when you say that during your time
at ALEC you did the survey and found that nine
percent of drinkers were drinking two thirds of the alcohol.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, that's right. That serio was done in nineteen seventy eight,
about the time that New Zealand alcohol consumption was peaking.
But I think the pattern of consumption won't have changed
basically over the years, even if the level has come down,
consistent with just about every country in the world, which
is driven by a whole lot of other factors, price
in particular.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And that's because you're putting the tax on to help
to help offset the harm, the economic harm that alcohol.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
But we're still doing The latest figure is nine point
one billion dollars cost and alcohol related harm last year.
About half of that was fe Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder FASD,
about DYSMA four billion. And yet until yesterday I see
just there was an announcement from the Associate Minister of
(02:21):
Health that the Fetal alcohol spectrum Disorder strategy is being revived.
He announced a whole new plan yesterday, which is good news,
but it's long overdue and it will make some critical
impact in that area.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, when you read about some of those people who
appear before the courts, who have committed horrific crimes, and
then you see how they came to have such poor
self control and such an inability to make choices, they
were a time bill waiting to happen from the time
they were in their mother's womb when the mother's fu
(02:57):
admit to drinking a bottle of bourbon a day, but
they've gone off the meth so yay for them.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, that's exactly the point. We we can identify now
at a fairly early stage, who these people are, and
we need to be wrapping the support around them and
the help to make sure, as you say, that the
time bomb doesn't explode. You take something like the multidisciplinary
study that Otigo's University has been doing for the last
forty odd years. They've got phenomenal data about at risk
(03:25):
groups and I'm pretty certain if they haven't got the
data about likely binge or problem drinkers, they could quickly
incorporate that in their study. And all I'm saying is
we should be using that data, targeting our response to
those who are most affected and therefore making the interventions early,
rather than this broad sweep which really sort of hasn't worked.
(03:49):
I mean, our cost of alcohol abuse is still as
high as it ever was.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, absolutely, even with the numbers of drinkers coming down.
Will there be a time do you think where the
where society recognizes the dangers, like our young people are
not drinking as much as they used to, and they're
not drinking in a harmful way as much as they
(04:13):
used to do as you're referenced, you know, that's happening
around the world, perhaps with social media, perhaps with cost
Will they eventually not be drinkers?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't think we'll ever get to that point, but
I think we will get to a point over time,
consistent with what's happening elsewhere where the sort of the
levels of consumption and the levels of understanding but improve.
I think that in the meantime, we're going to continue
to face the social problems. You know, you look at
(04:45):
the court records every day serious crime and the detail
that comes out there about the drinking behavior, and yet
that's sort of being left relatively unchecked. So that's why
I say that I think the time is now right
for a reassessment of our approach and to look at
a much more focused and targeted impact on those who
(05:06):
are the ones who are most seriously at risk most
other people for a variety of reasons. Better information about
health impacts cost other outlets. I mean, the problem there,
of course is the rise of illicit drug use, but
people are shifting out of the sole reliance on alcohol
(05:26):
that was once the case, and I think it's just
time that our policy becks caught up with that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
The ninety one percent who can drink sensibly and moderately,
I don't think they should be punished for enjoying and
to believery now and then.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Well, I think that's exactly the point I'm making. Yeah,
that our broad brush approach sort of treats everyone equally
at the moment, so the odd drinker is as serious
as the person who's been drinking every day. I think
that's nonsense.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think, sorry, you go on.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
There was a slogan developed some years ago by the
Ministry of Health when I was the Associate Minister. They
had this little sort of of acronym team which was
towards ending alcohol misuse, and I said, why don't why
don't we change it to towards enjoying alcohol moderately. Oh no,
you know that was contrary to all the thinking. But
(06:18):
I think that is the problem. We've we've demonized alcohol
for hundreds of years. We've we've now sort of transferred
that demonization to the whole of society, and for most
people it just doesn't wash. The messages just flow straight
over their heads because they're not adversely affected. And we're
missing the people we should be focusing on who do
(06:39):
need help and who are suffering, and whose families are suffering.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Because it's the women who agonize over having a couple
of gin and tonics on a Friday night before they
found out they were pregnant. They're the ones who stress
over the fegal alcohol syndrome, not the ones who think
right well and prey the duff Again, I'll give up
the meth and take to drinking bourbon. I can't see
how you reach them.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Well, I think you've got to be much more blunt
in your message, and I think you've got to accept
that you will be targeting some groups in society to
a greater extent than you would have previously, and that
might be uncomfortable, But if you want to make social
progress in terms of improving the outcomes for firstly them
and secondly their children, then I think there's no alternative
that the sort of fuzziness that we've had of you know,
(07:25):
let's all just consider each other and think about the
impacts of what we're doing. They just wash over people's
head and in certain circumstances have sort of no impact
at all. I mean, some years ago, there was an
extensive campaign on television Country Country, People Die on Country
Roads about people and country who is drinking too much.
(07:46):
It was being shown on TV at the very hours
that the people who it was targeted at were out
doing the drinking. A complete waste of time and money,
but it sort of looked good. It looked as though
we were concerned and doing something. And I think we've
just got to change our attitude and focus on actually
solutions that will work. If it does mean some pretty
(08:07):
harsh social targeting to get to the groups who are
at risk, Otherwise our figures aren't going to shift that dramatically.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I thank you very much for your time. Peter dunnpolitical commentator,
formerly Leader of the United Future, served as a minister
in former national and labor governments.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks A B from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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