November 10, 2025 • 12 mins
Many businesses that limped through the pandemic are now going under.
Insolvency practitioners have been reporting a sharp rise in the number of insolvencies since mid-2022.
Smaller retail, hospitality, construction, transport and manufacturing operators are failing far more now than they were before the pandemic.
Waterstone Insolvency Principal Damien Grant told Kerre Woodham a lot of businesses are subject to economic winds, which are outside of their control.
He says we as a country are getting poorer, which means disposable income and things like hospitality are dropping, which is why you see a lot of pain in the hospitality sector in particular.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks,
he'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Liquidation and receivership numbers have been trending upwards since the pandemic.
Business and liquidations had a ten year high last year,
with twenty five hundred companies folding. It was the highest
annual figure since twenty fourteen, with retail and constructions suffering
the most. This year is looking to be even worse
than that. Waterstone Insolvency principal Damien Grant joins me, Now,
(00:33):
very good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Good morning, a lovely morning.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You're an Oklan, it is a lovely morning. Is that
going to help? Is that going to get businesses that
are shaky through? Or is that is that just pie
in the sky.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I don't know what's going to help business gets the
businesses get through a lot of businesses are subject to
the economic winds. With your outside of our control, and
likewise my own insolvency firm, I am subject to economic
forces beyond my control. And the servants goes up. I
get busy. If you're running a restaurant, there are so
many things that can make your restaurant go up or down,
(01:14):
but certainly the general economic tightening. We're seeing flat economic growth,
population increases. We are getting poorer and have been for
some time, which means disposable income on things. Our hospitality
is dropping, which is why you see a lot of
pain in the hospitality sector.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's interesting because if you are good at what you
do and you have loyal staff and you've got good customers,
that should be a recipe for success. But it's not enough.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, if what you are really good at is making
wagon wheels for horse and buggies, then it doesn't matter
how good you are, does it because the market has
moved on. So if you're really good at encoding in DOS,
well doesn't matter. You know there are there are more
doth coders and there are people who need that. So no,
(02:06):
it's it's not enough. And sometimes luck features a lot
in business. You can see some real idiots doing extremely
well because they capture the mood. But that but that's
that is the nature of promis and the way we
structure our economic system as we design it so that
(02:27):
a hundred people will try, ten people will do really well,
ad people will do okay, and ten people will fail,
and we need to not stigmatize those ten people who
fail because the way we design our system, the way
we set up limited liability companies, we do it in
anticipation that some people will will fail. Failure is not
(02:50):
a it's not a bug. It's an embedded part of
the system. And so if your business comes un stuck,
it doesn't mean that you're you're you are bad at business.
It just means that, for whatever reason, the economic tide
has moved against you. But I'll tell you this, a
lot of the people who I see who fail one year,
four or five years down the truck, they are succeeding
(03:12):
in business. You learn a lot more on the way
down than you do on the way out.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, that is what I was saying. I'll never forget.
Adriana were saying, yes as well, we need a recession
to call this market and you know, glibally saying it
at which you can do when you're a public servant
and you're getting very well paid. But you know, for
every recession and every oh, well, this is going to
get rid of the dead wood. They're people, They're real,
(03:37):
live people who are really suffering as they try and
hang on.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yes, that that is true in their respective Adrian or
his economic recklessness created a lot of companies that should
not have existed, which then subsequently failed. The man was
a catastrophe. I'm only disappointed he's decided to see Michael
Radell not me. I thought I was much what critical
(04:06):
of them. The Michael was so Adrian. If you want
to have a go, you know, feel free to see on. Yeah,
bring it on. He's a reckless economic and competent and
he could barely fit into a tie. I have no
respect for the man, but I just want to come
back to that point though, that when you go into business,
(04:28):
you go into business knowing that things could fail, but
also in anticipation that things could work. And so there
is Yes, people, when businesses fail, it gets hard. But
also don't forget that the way we structure things, bankruptcy
in particular is the worst thing that can happen to you,
(04:49):
and bankruptcy in New Zealand is not that catastrophic. And
the state tender around and says, all right, mister Grant,
you've had to go on business and you've failed. We
will now protect you from your creditors. You take three
years off, you go get a and then in three
years you can go again. The system is designed so
(05:10):
that people can fail and fail in an orderly way
that allows them to reassemble their lives. And for a
lot of people, business is hard and a lot of
times the best thing that can happen for somebody whose
business is not succeeding is to close it down. One
of the analogies I like to think about, and this
is this is really a problem for men. If you
(05:32):
ask a guy what does he do? I will say
I'm a liquidator, I'm a broadcaster, I'm a lawyer. It's
a bit sexist to say it. But if you ask
a woman, they will often say, ah, you know, I
work for Adia in New Zealand, I work at a lapen.
Women are much more rounded and rational individuals, and they
have a sense of themselves. Men, because we have no soul,
(05:55):
We are completely shallow individuals, and we completely identify with
our jobs. And so when a guy his business is
in trouble, we are too stubborn and too stupid to
come to the realization that it needs to stop. And
that psychologically for a guy is so very difficult, because
(06:17):
if your identity is wrapped into your business. It's not
always true that a woman who find themselves in the
same situation. But if your identity, your sense of worth
is locked into your business and the business fails, you
don't just lose your income, you lose a part of
your identity, which can be unbelievably. It's not just the
economics it's harmful. It's how people see themselves, which can.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Be difficult, absolutely, but if they can gain a sense
of perspective. I mean, it's not good for you to
be waking at three in the morning with your heart
pounding and your mouth dry and feeling sick to your core,
wondering what the hell you're going to do, because everything
you can do you're doing, but it's beyond your control.
(07:01):
I just wondered, is there a set But it sounds
like you've already answered it. There are sents of release
once you realize that you cannot that's not your fault,
you can't keep hanging on, and that you're better off
to your family, alive and working for somebody else than
running yourself into the ground trying to say this business.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
That is true. And I certainly see the visceral relief
on business owners when they finally say that's that. I'm
going to close the ball, close the business. A lot
of times closing the business doesn't end it because people
have given personal guarantees to landlords and so forth, and
so sometimes the business failure can then be followed up
with a bankruptcy. But as long as you've got your
(07:45):
affairs sorted, your house and a trust and so forth,
it's not quite so catastrophic. But I just want to
come back to that person at three o'clock in the
morning thinking, hey, you pay your wages. I suffer from that.
I will sometimes wake up at three o'clock in the
morning and thinking, oh my god, how am I going
to manage this? I've got this delegation, I've got that litigation.
(08:05):
There is for some people, myself included, there is a
visceral thrill about that level of stress and that level
of pressure, and we thrive on it. And so if
you were to take away that three o'clock in the
morning worry and so the only thing you've got to
worry about is meeting the performance deadlines of the Ministry
(08:29):
of Funny Walks, whatever you're working for, life, wouldn't it
just would feel incomplete. So so pushing pushing the envelope
and being just a little bit reckless and taking risks there.
So there is a thrill to that. But I'm sure
some of your listeners will be sitting, will be aware
of it. And sometimes you get through those three o'clock
(08:50):
nightmares and you come out the other side and you
feel bullet brief and then you think, oh my god.
Well and then and then you go and do something
equally reckless to get those three o'clock chills back again.
I don't recommend it that it's true for a lot
of us.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, that's true. It's about people's individual makeup and capacity
to deal with with stress. I guess stress can be
a good thing.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
What would you when some people would be enormously stressed
about hosting a radio show, You carry it off. It's
just it's just, you know, it's easy. You're doing so well,
you're doing your sleep. I mean, don't tell me you
don't sometimes wake up at three o'clock in the morning
you're thinking, oh my god, I've got to I've got
to interview this. I haven't done enough research for that.
I mean, you you know you must it that. It's
(09:31):
a similar sensation you and you wouldn't want to lose it.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's more the pub you know, that live public speaking
on the stage, when you can see the whites of
their eyes. That that's where I get my checks. That's
what I quite enjoy it. So what would you guys
speak Damien? Two business owners who are on you know
who are who have been through five years and wondering
if they've got any more left in them to do
another year?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
The don't don't go talk to an insolvency practitioner. And
my colleagues will will hate me for saying that. If
you don't talk to innsolvency pature about what to do,
it's like going to a dentist. The dentist will recommend
a root canal. You've got to an insolventty petition. Now
our advice will be, oh, you should look at out
closer business. The best people to talk to is go
(10:17):
and talk to your accountants, to go and talk to
your lawyer. And because they have the ability to be objective,
and they might say, look, you've asked me for advice.
You've been running this for five years. The market's not
going to shift. The business model doesn't work, it's time
to call it quits. Or they might say insolvency has
(10:38):
a lot of tools to help businesses that have historically
traded badly but are now trading in the black. So
if you're sitting there in your business own and you think,
oh goodness, I am my credit is there the bank
that io the iod so much money? But if your
business is actually trading profitably months to month, and you've
(10:59):
got outstanding historical debts or legacies, go and talk to
your accountant and your lawyer and say, is there a
way that I can restructure my business affairs in such
a way to draw a line in the same between
my past trading and my future trading. And sometimes the
answer is no, we can't help you for whatever reason.
But sometimes the answer is yes. And a lot of
(11:21):
times people come and see us and they've their lawyer
account It brings them in, but it's too late. They've
gone on too late. If we've seen them six months
or twelve months earlier, we might be able to help
them if they're in that situation. And see, this is
the thing. It's like men and gps. We never go
and see the GP until the growth is so big.
It's you know, it's journ malignant men. We don't like
(11:45):
to seek advice, but this is an area where it's
really useful to go and get advice and talk to
your accountants. You'll don't go rushing off talking to an
insulvant a petitioner, because you'll you'll come out with the
company and liquidation.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Absolutely brilliant advice. It's so good to talk to you.
We've got some great feedback. Thank you so much, Damien Grant,
principal at Waterstone Insolvency.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks a B from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks,
he'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Liquidation and receivership numbers have been trending upwards since the pandemic.
Business and liquidations had a ten year high last year,
with twenty five hundred companies folding. It was the highest
annual figure since twenty fourteen, with retail and constructions suffering
the most. This year is looking to be even worse
than that. Waterstone Insolvency principal Damien Grant joins me, Now,
(00:33):
very good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Good morning, a lovely morning.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You're an Oklan, it is a lovely morning. Is that
going to help? Is that going to get businesses that
are shaky through? Or is that is that just pie
in the sky.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I don't know what's going to help business gets the
businesses get through a lot of businesses are subject to
the economic winds. With your outside of our control, and
likewise my own insolvency firm, I am subject to economic
forces beyond my control. And the servants goes up. I
get busy. If you're running a restaurant, there are so
many things that can make your restaurant go up or down,
(01:14):
but certainly the general economic tightening. We're seeing flat economic growth,
population increases. We are getting poorer and have been for
some time, which means disposable income on things. Our hospitality
is dropping, which is why you see a lot of
pain in the hospitality sector.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's interesting because if you are good at what you
do and you have loyal staff and you've got good customers,
that should be a recipe for success. But it's not enough.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, if what you are really good at is making
wagon wheels for horse and buggies, then it doesn't matter
how good you are, does it because the market has
moved on. So if you're really good at encoding in DOS,
well doesn't matter. You know there are there are more
doth coders and there are people who need that. So no,
(02:06):
it's it's not enough. And sometimes luck features a lot
in business. You can see some real idiots doing extremely
well because they capture the mood. But that but that's
that is the nature of promis and the way we
structure our economic system as we design it so that
(02:27):
a hundred people will try, ten people will do really well,
ad people will do okay, and ten people will fail,
and we need to not stigmatize those ten people who
fail because the way we design our system, the way
we set up limited liability companies, we do it in
anticipation that some people will will fail. Failure is not
(02:50):
a it's not a bug. It's an embedded part of
the system. And so if your business comes un stuck,
it doesn't mean that you're you're you are bad at business.
It just means that, for whatever reason, the economic tide
has moved against you. But I'll tell you this, a
lot of the people who I see who fail one year,
four or five years down the truck, they are succeeding
(03:12):
in business. You learn a lot more on the way
down than you do on the way out.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, that is what I was saying. I'll never forget.
Adriana were saying, yes as well, we need a recession
to call this market and you know, glibally saying it
at which you can do when you're a public servant
and you're getting very well paid. But you know, for
every recession and every oh, well, this is going to
get rid of the dead wood. They're people, They're real,
(03:37):
live people who are really suffering as they try and
hang on.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yes, that that is true in their respective Adrian or
his economic recklessness created a lot of companies that should
not have existed, which then subsequently failed. The man was
a catastrophe. I'm only disappointed he's decided to see Michael
Radell not me. I thought I was much what critical
(04:06):
of them. The Michael was so Adrian. If you want
to have a go, you know, feel free to see on. Yeah,
bring it on. He's a reckless economic and competent and
he could barely fit into a tie. I have no
respect for the man, but I just want to come
back to that point though, that when you go into business,
(04:28):
you go into business knowing that things could fail, but
also in anticipation that things could work. And so there
is Yes, people, when businesses fail, it gets hard. But
also don't forget that the way we structure things, bankruptcy
in particular is the worst thing that can happen to you,
(04:49):
and bankruptcy in New Zealand is not that catastrophic. And
the state tender around and says, all right, mister Grant,
you've had to go on business and you've failed. We
will now protect you from your creditors. You take three
years off, you go get a and then in three
years you can go again. The system is designed so
(05:10):
that people can fail and fail in an orderly way
that allows them to reassemble their lives. And for a
lot of people, business is hard and a lot of
times the best thing that can happen for somebody whose
business is not succeeding is to close it down. One
of the analogies I like to think about, and this
is this is really a problem for men. If you
(05:32):
ask a guy what does he do? I will say
I'm a liquidator, I'm a broadcaster, I'm a lawyer. It's
a bit sexist to say it. But if you ask
a woman, they will often say, ah, you know, I
work for Adia in New Zealand, I work at a lapen.
Women are much more rounded and rational individuals, and they
have a sense of themselves. Men, because we have no soul,
(05:55):
We are completely shallow individuals, and we completely identify with
our jobs. And so when a guy his business is
in trouble, we are too stubborn and too stupid to
come to the realization that it needs to stop. And
that psychologically for a guy is so very difficult, because
(06:17):
if your identity is wrapped into your business. It's not
always true that a woman who find themselves in the
same situation. But if your identity, your sense of worth
is locked into your business and the business fails, you
don't just lose your income, you lose a part of
your identity, which can be unbelievably. It's not just the
economics it's harmful. It's how people see themselves, which can.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Be difficult, absolutely, but if they can gain a sense
of perspective. I mean, it's not good for you to
be waking at three in the morning with your heart
pounding and your mouth dry and feeling sick to your core,
wondering what the hell you're going to do, because everything
you can do you're doing, but it's beyond your control.
(07:01):
I just wondered, is there a set But it sounds
like you've already answered it. There are sents of release
once you realize that you cannot that's not your fault,
you can't keep hanging on, and that you're better off
to your family, alive and working for somebody else than
running yourself into the ground trying to say this business.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
That is true. And I certainly see the visceral relief
on business owners when they finally say that's that. I'm
going to close the ball, close the business. A lot
of times closing the business doesn't end it because people
have given personal guarantees to landlords and so forth, and
so sometimes the business failure can then be followed up
with a bankruptcy. But as long as you've got your
(07:45):
affairs sorted, your house and a trust and so forth,
it's not quite so catastrophic. But I just want to
come back to that person at three o'clock in the
morning thinking, hey, you pay your wages. I suffer from that.
I will sometimes wake up at three o'clock in the
morning and thinking, oh my god, how am I going
to manage this? I've got this delegation, I've got that litigation.
(08:05):
There is for some people, myself included, there is a
visceral thrill about that level of stress and that level
of pressure, and we thrive on it. And so if
you were to take away that three o'clock in the
morning worry and so the only thing you've got to
worry about is meeting the performance deadlines of the Ministry
(08:29):
of Funny Walks, whatever you're working for, life, wouldn't it
just would feel incomplete. So so pushing pushing the envelope
and being just a little bit reckless and taking risks there.
So there is a thrill to that. But I'm sure
some of your listeners will be sitting, will be aware
of it. And sometimes you get through those three o'clock
(08:50):
nightmares and you come out the other side and you
feel bullet brief and then you think, oh my god.
Well and then and then you go and do something
equally reckless to get those three o'clock chills back again.
I don't recommend it that it's true for a lot
of us.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, that's true. It's about people's individual makeup and capacity
to deal with with stress. I guess stress can be
a good thing.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
What would you when some people would be enormously stressed
about hosting a radio show, You carry it off. It's
just it's just, you know, it's easy. You're doing so well,
you're doing your sleep. I mean, don't tell me you
don't sometimes wake up at three o'clock in the morning
you're thinking, oh my god, I've got to I've got
to interview this. I haven't done enough research for that.
I mean, you you know you must it that. It's
(09:31):
a similar sensation you and you wouldn't want to lose it.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's more the pub you know, that live public speaking
on the stage, when you can see the whites of
their eyes. That that's where I get my checks. That's
what I quite enjoy it. So what would you guys
speak Damien? Two business owners who are on you know
who are who have been through five years and wondering
if they've got any more left in them to do
another year?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
The don't don't go talk to an insolvency practitioner. And
my colleagues will will hate me for saying that. If
you don't talk to innsolvency pature about what to do,
it's like going to a dentist. The dentist will recommend
a root canal. You've got to an insolventty petition. Now
our advice will be, oh, you should look at out
closer business. The best people to talk to is go
(10:17):
and talk to your accountants, to go and talk to
your lawyer. And because they have the ability to be objective,
and they might say, look, you've asked me for advice.
You've been running this for five years. The market's not
going to shift. The business model doesn't work, it's time
to call it quits. Or they might say insolvency has
(10:38):
a lot of tools to help businesses that have historically
traded badly but are now trading in the black. So
if you're sitting there in your business own and you think,
oh goodness, I am my credit is there the bank
that io the iod so much money? But if your
business is actually trading profitably months to month, and you've
(10:59):
got outstanding historical debts or legacies, go and talk to
your accountant and your lawyer and say, is there a
way that I can restructure my business affairs in such
a way to draw a line in the same between
my past trading and my future trading. And sometimes the
answer is no, we can't help you for whatever reason.
But sometimes the answer is yes. And a lot of
(11:21):
times people come and see us and they've their lawyer
account It brings them in, but it's too late. They've
gone on too late. If we've seen them six months
or twelve months earlier, we might be able to help
them if they're in that situation. And see, this is
the thing. It's like men and gps. We never go
and see the GP until the growth is so big.
It's you know, it's journ malignant men. We don't like
(11:45):
to seek advice, but this is an area where it's
really useful to go and get advice and talk to
your accountants. You'll don't go rushing off talking to an
insulvant a petitioner, because you'll you'll come out with the
company and liquidation.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Absolutely brilliant advice. It's so good to talk to you.
We've got some great feedback. Thank you so much, Damien Grant,
principal at Waterstone Insolvency.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks a B from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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