Full Show Podcast: 05 May 2025

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello and welcome to Matton Tyler Full Afternoon Show podcasts
Said That Wrong? One one seven four, the fifth of
May twenty twenty five. It's a fantastic show. We didn't
get to one of our topics as we offer don't
because the other two went absolutely nuts. The topic we
didn't get too was address codes and work after a

(00:37):
new Starbucks initiative. But we had a confronting chat on
longer prison sentences, including quite a quite a full on
chat with the well, how do you can only put
this one way? A murderer? Yeah, a person that had
murdered someone had done seventeen years for it, which was interesting, confronting, confronting,
and I hope you get something out of that. Also,

(01:00):
we went deep into AI and there's nothing I love
more than an AI chat.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
We also talked a little bit about Colin and am
pies and details, so yeah is that as well?

Speaker 2 (01:10):
So there is something for everyone. Subscribe set to download.
Thank you so much for listening, and enjoy the next
two hours of entertainment.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yep, and give them a taste. All right, Okay, bye
News Talks. There'd be welcome into the show on this
Monday afternoon. Hope you had a great week a great weekend.
If you're listening in the country, get.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
A Matt, get a, Tyler, get everyone. Thanks so much
for tuning in too, Matt and Tyler Afternoon. It's got
a great show for you over the next three hours.
I'm excited about it. At a fantastic weekend, crazy big
weekend of sport, wasn't it?

Speaker 4 (01:47):
Oh hush? I mean, what do you want to start with?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I don't We don't need to go into it.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
Just everything was absolutely incredible in the end, apart from
poor old Liam.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Hey, can I just talk quickly, just really really quickly
before we move forward about a phenomena that needs to stop? Okay,
and people listening. So there's someone in my life. She's
very important to me, and she was talking a lot
about a movie she hadn't seen called Silence of the Lambs.
Oh yep, And she said we should watch Silence of

(02:20):
the Lambs. One of the best movies I've ever made,
in my opinion, and so I was very keen for
her to watch it, right yep, And so teed it up,
sat down to watch it, and then what does she
do spend the entire time on her phone too screening.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
I know the pain. I know the pain, and.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
You're going you need to watch This is a movie
where you need to watch because there's so much foreboding
in it. There is so much that the mizzle scene
is so important for the film. Watching every single part
of that film. You can't be too screening it. And
there are movies now and I've talked about this on
the show before and Netflix that are made they're just
super dumb. And there's streaming movies that are made for

(02:58):
you to be able to watch while you're looking at
your screen, and when you try and watch those without
two screening, they seem very very very strange and slow
and boring and stupid. But Silence of the Lambs is
one of these fantastic movies. You know, Anthony Hopkins performance,
Jodie Foster's weird accent, all of it, all the way,
how everything's set up. You just got to watch these movies.

(03:21):
You've just got to put your phone down and look
otherwise it's going to cause frustration within households.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
Absolutely, that's not even a slow Burn movie, though, that
one's like tension from the start in the build up,
even the opening scene when she's running through the forest.
She wasn't into that that instantly should have grabbed her
and said, yeah, oh, I'm into this. She's a tough
world out there at the moment.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
So instead of saying something directly to her face, yeah,
what I've decided to do instand as broadcast my complaint
to the nation.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
It's so much easier doing it that way. I've learned
that right on, So you see her tell it onto
today's show after three o'clock. Dress codes at work that's
on the back of Starbucks. They have sparked uproar with
some of their employees after introducing a change to its uniform.
The change isn't too extreme. It is any black, short

(04:10):
or long sleeve, crew neck or button up shirts and
any shade of khaki, black or blue. But the younger
members are freaking out, saying we can't express os ols.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, well, is our dress codes at work? Are things
still or have we moved into a post making an efforts? Actually,
that's not for fear. Some people will make a huge
effort and be outside of address code. But our dress code.
Just thinks of the past, love your thoughts on that
after three.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yep, after two o'clock. AI in schools, The Ministry of
Education says our AI poses a significant challenge for schools.
They reckon around sixty percent of students are using it
for school work.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, so are your kids using AI to do their
homework or are they using it at school? What do
you think about this? What do you think about AI
marking papers? Because that's what's happening now, and should there
be more or less AI in schools? And if so,
what are the parameters? Love to hear from you on
I one hundred and eighty ten eighty.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yep, But right now, let's have a chance about prison
sentences and rehabilitation. So prisoners on short send are more
likely to re offend than those on the longer sentences,
and Christians Minister Mark Mitchell he is looking into replacing
those shorter sentences with longer ones. One of the big
reasons is that those on shorter sentences have less access
to rehabilitation and are automatically released after serving half their time.

(05:27):
So this is a big one, Mitchell argues why he
agrees that it will end up costing quite a lot
of money for the government if they have to build
new prisons, because that prison population is going to expand.
But he argues that the long term benefits down the
track would be worth that.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, well, the economic benefits of people not out and
about in the community committing crimes. You know, that's kind
of a harder thing to work out. But other people
say the opposite, and they say that, you know, rehabilitation
isn't working and that people will cause more harm in
the community by having these long custodial sentences. I love

(06:07):
to hear from people have been rehabilitated by the sentence,
people that have been inside and the rehabilitation has worked
for them, and why they think that worked, or people
who know people who have been rehabilitated by their sentence,
or the reverse, people that have gone into prison in
and out and have the prison sentence has had nothing
to do with whether they commit crimes again. And as

(06:31):
I was saying to you before, Tyler, it's the age
of debate, isn't it, Because part of prison is punitive,
part of prison is and it's I guess in a
way magical thinking that you think things have been writed
something terrible happens to you, you're a victim or someone
in your family, and that person gets punished, and in
some ways things get balanced out in the universe because

(06:52):
a terrible thing's happened to some person then and nearly
as bad thing happens to someone out. So is that
the point of prisons or you know, is it about
the social good across the entire society? And so if
we work out this stats and it works out that
longer prison sentences ultimately aren't better for the amount of

(07:14):
crime and community, then then we shouldn't do them. I
don't know, it's a difficult one. I don't know the
answer to that question. It's very hard to say to
someone for the good of all of community, that person
isn't going to get a very long sentence. And I'm
not saying that that is true. I'm not saying because
you know, according to these stats here, it suggests that
the longer sentences do lead to more rebilitation.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
Yeah, I mean, just looking at the reoffending rates, so dishonesty,
the reoffending rates seventy nine percent, property offenses, sixty one percent, violence,
sixty one percent reoffending rate. That is incredibly high. But
You're quite right. If you're the victim of a crime,
and a violent crime, and under this particular law change,

(07:54):
the person who committed the crime against you serves a
shorter sentences for the good of other people, would you
feel okay with that? I think the victim in question
would be saying, hang on a minute, Yeah, you know,
this was a family member or me that was attacked,
that screwed up my life. Why do I have to
take one for the team?

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Well, exactly because at least a part of prison sentences,
for want of a better word, revenge, revenge on the
person that's done this, this this act.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
Definitely.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, And it gets a bit complicated as well, like
all these things do. So I'd love to hear people's
opinions on this. O eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty.
You know, because shorter sentences are reoffending may be higher,
but you might get shorter sentences for the types of
crimes that you're more likely to reoffend at. Also, you know,
if you're in prison long enough, then you become old
and outside of the age group that reoffends.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
Exactly. Oh, eight hundred and eighteen eighty is the number
to call love to hear from you on this one.
It is fourteen past one.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
The big stories, the big issues, the big trends and
everything in between. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams afternoons.

Speaker 4 (08:58):
Used talks be news talks there be. It's seventeen past
one and we're talking about rehabilitation and prison sentences. Mark
Mitchell is looking to investigate longer prison sentences because he
says the evidence shows longer sentences mean people do not
reoffend at these same rates.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, we offending rates dropped sharply with longer sentences, according
to him, fifteen percent for short sentences and versus twelve
percent for sentences over five years. Like everything in this area,
it gets pretty complicated. Term you were in prison for
fifteen years, I understand.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Yeah, I've seen not as fourteen years nine months out
of a twenty one years eight months from drug offences. Right,
we'd enjoyed five years and then got convicted for and
got sentence to another seventeen years for drug charges while
serving as it inmate. I've seen it like you definitely
noticed like a different how different governments deal with you,

(09:56):
like a labor government lawyer in prison, Like I definitely
like progue it's easier. Bowel conditions get easier, there's more programs,
more I'm READO great and more rehabilitation and national comes
in and they longer sentences and tighten things up. Things
get harsher inside, less privileges. But from my experience from

(10:18):
doing all the rehability little bit of rehabilitation courses that
creaks and test to offer, it's just like a box
taking exercise. Really, it's a bit of a joke. It's
like design design for five year olds, waste of money.
If you ask if you asked me, you know right when.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
When how long in prison had you been before you started,
you know, trying some rehabilitation that was on offer or when.

Speaker 5 (10:44):
I first started. What they tried to do is what
they say. They want to want you to make your
way to your first available parole date before you start courses.
So for someone like me that was fourteen years nine months.
I was eligible to parole after thirteen years nine months
and I managed to get into start doing the courses
I need to do after about fourteen years.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Wow, So were you when you were in prison and
were you thinking about you know, parole and doing the
right things. Was that on your mind when you're in
prison that you were sort of.

Speaker 5 (11:17):
Intially know because initially when I first got because I
went and doing five years and the DA the day
I got sentenced to a new sentence, I'd done four
years eight months of my five years, and then I've
got sentenced to another seventeen years on top of that. Right,
so like there's not much hope to the start of
that thing. And I just thought, well, it is what
it is. And once I started getting about five years out,

(11:38):
I started to thinking, it's about time for me to
start trying to you know, try to get to do
these courses. But it's like if any of the stuff
in the the like not exactly like the finest people
that they hire, like not really cares. He's lots of corruption.
The prison officers are just in general hopeless. It's the
odd old one that is helpful, but it's really just

(12:00):
a joke. It's all just like a box taking exercise too.
I don't know set us by the pro board in
the public, you know really in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, and when about exactly were you in prison? When
was this fourteen years?

Speaker 5 (12:12):
Well, I started in three two thousand and six, and
I was released in November twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Who was right? And so how have you been going
since you've been out of prison?

Speaker 5 (12:23):
Well, I would say I'd be pretty rare in this aspect.
So I haven't had like any issues at all. I've
got outstarted my business, you know, in construction and working
now for a couple of employees and stuff and that,
you know, but people like me, well for a start
on like Pakia, I never joined a gang, and then
it's south is like super rare for Soula's spend that
long in prison on mainstream but like it's just such

(12:48):
a negative, punitive environment and these people getting out of
the long period of time because they've treated like really
like non human beings, well you know, that's that's what
they get out, acting like you know, like there's no
genuine help, no genuine courses. So you know, that's what
the public wants, that's what they're gonna that's what they're
gonna get, you know.

Speaker 4 (13:08):
So just your own back to when you were serving
your sentence, So there are no programs that you can
undertake while you're serving that sentence. You have to wait
until the end of your sentence before you're eligible to
do some of those programs correct, that seems nonsensical. I mean,
what do you do day to day in the prison
except for survive and do your time of course, But
they're nothing nothing.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
Yeah, that's right. You'll see an environment well like pretty
much like as it says, oh, I'm a non gang member,
so every unit I member, it was pretty much like
fifty five people are gang members and five people are
non gang members on average. I've been a wings, but
I'm the only person who's not a gang member, and
a wing that's like sixty people. You know, you can
always go on protection with although like six offenders and
whatever stuff like that. That was really me, But it's

(13:51):
it's just a real toxic environment, you know, and like
the prison officers they have no control. Really, it's like
it's a joke.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Do you think what do you think would be realistic
rehabilitation for someone in prison? What do you think would
have taken would have worked for you?

Speaker 5 (14:07):
Well, I just really believe like no one's going to
change unless they really want to, to be honest, and
doesn't matter how many courses you do, like the step,
the Bloody Drug DTU drug DU drug program, They're like
it's it's as people are just trying to get out
of jail. Most people, in my experience, are just going
to continue on doing the same thing. And also I believe,
like you, I've come across many people in president who, like.

Speaker 6 (14:30):
I personally think you never get out.

Speaker 5 (14:32):
That it's like all they're going to do is get
out and hurt people and do the same shirt and yeah,
it's like come and but and and on the other hand,
there's some people who have been given excessive sentences who
are I believe that aren't going to do the same
thing when they get out, and he's put every roadblock
and put in front of them because they comparing them
to the to the gang member or the whoever who's

(14:53):
never going to change, you know. So it's it's pretty hard.
Had situation.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, as you said before, you were in for five
years originally and then that got blown out into the
much longer sentence because of you know, offending inside. Do
you think if you've been if you'd got out after
that five years, because Minister Mark Mitchell wants to replace
these short prison sentences with longer ones and it's not
really what's happening happened with you, but do you think

(15:17):
if you'd got out after that five years, you would
have been more likely to reoffend. Because you've been out
now for nearly five years and haven't reoffended. So if
you've got out after the original five years.

Speaker 5 (15:27):
Honestly, I think I probably. I don't think much would
have changed it. I'm just the top situations at the time.
I think it really just for me personally, not in
all cases, but what I needed was to be a
hefty sentence to really change my ways, really to say well, okay,
that's it. Yeah, I've got that amount of time. I
don't think much would have changed, to be honest, to
be fair.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Right, And what's it like to get out of prison
and you've been in for that long and you're finally
out and you're and you're making your way in the
world and there's there's not rules and you've got your freedom.
What's that feeling like?

Speaker 5 (16:00):
Well, it's amazing. Really, Well, take give me a couple examples. Right,
So this give us three hundred and fifty dollars a week,
but when you get out fifty dollars. It's till you
get it. For me, I was fortunately I had good family, support,
good people around me, so I know, like several people
have got out with three hundred and fifty dollars.

Speaker 6 (16:15):
They haven't it.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
They can't even buy a set of clothes. They can't
even feel good about themselves. They've got you know, they've
bought a pair of jeans and shoes, and they've got nothing.
You have to wait a couple of weeks to like
get on the benefit. They're not out of normally the cases,
you're not a lot of work which always now to
work at all for the first light six months is passed?

Speaker 6 (16:29):
What role?

Speaker 5 (16:29):
Editions? I just wanted me to like just chill out
and do nothing or I don't know what reason seeing
these guys getting out, they've got nothing, they can't do anything.
You know what expect them to do? You know, like
they need money. You know they're going to do something,
aren't they.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Right, So you think that that once you leave prison,
the landing should be made softer for people.

Speaker 5 (16:49):
Well, no one's got a chance. Imagine. I know somebody
who got it up for nineteen years in prison, nothing
no support. He got put into a Salvation Army house.
He got given three hundred fifty dollars on his first night.
The power the house is the thing where you know
you prepay. I didn't know how to work that. So
like the first night the power runs out and it's
just wait until like eight o'clock next morning, because he's

(17:10):
not our lead. The premises the sort out of power,
you know, a sit disaster, they've got no chance, no
chance at all.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
Yeah, Tim, thank you very much. I mean, the the
reoffending rates according to this graph, and that was in
twenty eighteen, would would tend to skew. You know, there's
a lot of truth and what Tim was saying, Yeah,
when you've got seventy nine percent of those in dishonesty
offenses reoffending, that is a crazy high number. Oh one

(17:38):
hundred and eighteen eighty is the number to call Love
to hear your thoughts about rehabilitation in New Zealand prisons
and the idea of longer sentences to allow people to
undertake those programs. It is twenty five past.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
One, putting the tough questions to the newspeakers, the mic
asking breakfast time risen the studio.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Twelve billion is a stunning amount of money.

Speaker 7 (17:58):
It's over four years I understand that, and nine of
it's new and we don't have any of it. So
Nicola in announcing one point three instead of two point
four as she did last week, must have a shedload
of doughse somewhere in terms of saving specially.

Speaker 8 (18:12):
Again, I'm going to be the wrong answer that you're
not going to like, but it is. I'm not going
to talk.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
About otherwise it just doesn't add up.

Speaker 8 (18:17):
Well, I can tell you it does add up, and
it's within our fiscal buzz.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
It will all make sense.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
It will all make sense.

Speaker 8 (18:22):
And what you're going to see as a budget that
is actually saying Yep, we know we're in tough and
uncertain times, but we have turned the corner and actually
things are getting better.

Speaker 7 (18:29):
Back tomorrow at six am the mic Husking Breakfast with
the Rain drove of a lame news talk z B.

Speaker 4 (18:35):
It is twenty eight past one, and we're talking about
rehabilitation in New Zealand prisons and the idea of longer
prison sentences to allow more rehabilitation. It is something that
reaches mister Mark Mitchell is looking into elanor your thoughts
on this, father.

Speaker 9 (18:51):
I wonder if.

Speaker 10 (18:51):
Mister Mark Mitchell has ever looked into the Norway prison system,
because recently I watched the documentary called Your Times next
by Michael Moore, and our cividism rate is guess how much?

Speaker 11 (19:06):
Just have it stabbed?

Speaker 2 (19:07):
I said, I've seen this. I've seen a better documentaries
than that, and better than obviously Michael Moore saying, but
they're very low, aren't they, and that the prisons are
the prisons are very nice.

Speaker 10 (19:20):
So it's twenty percivalism rate. And that's because they don't
have a punitive approach. It's restoratives. And what they're doing
is they're creating a systematic dependence. They're not creating a
systematic dependency on the prison system. So they're rehabilitating prisoners
instead of just wearehousing them and letting them become better
prepared to end for society. And we're not just talking

(19:43):
drugs charges. We're talking murderers who have done their time,
let's say twenty five years, and instead of going back
into the system and failing like your previous caller was
talking about and not having any support, they've the skills
to do that. And partly because they've been working inside
the prison system and learning skills.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Every day, learning and always got so a lot of advantages.
I've got a whole heap of oil money. They've got
a lot more to spend on things like this. What
do you say, eleanor though, because prison isn't just about rehabilitation,
and it isn't just about keeping people out of the system.
If someone has committed a crime on someone else, a
certain amount of it in society is expected, for want

(20:23):
of a better a word, revenge, and that someone has
done something bad to a family or a person, and
part of that prison sentence is the writing of that wrong.

Speaker 10 (20:37):
Yes, and I understand that that the human need right
someone has done something wrong to you, and I totally
understand that. However, show me the research that says the
punitive approach is working, and then look at statistics.

Speaker 12 (20:51):
There's the research that.

Speaker 10 (20:52):
Says punishing people for years without giving them any skills, Well.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
I definitely, I definitely think. You know, talking to Tim there,
the point that he made is when they actually get
out of prison, whatever however long the term is, if
you've decided that they've done their time and you paid
their debt to society and they get back out, really
a place that I feel like, if you're going to
spend some money should be on the soft landing, because

(21:19):
if they get out and they're institutionalized and they don't
know how things work, and they're struggling to get a job.
They're going to end up going back to the same
people in the same life that they were in. So
whatever happens in prison and so in Norway, they how's
their landing when they leave prison?

Speaker 10 (21:38):
Well, it's much softer than ours, obviously, because they've got
skills and connections that they would have set up on
the outside.

Speaker 9 (21:46):
Before they leave, regardless of the keene sentence of a
twenty five year.

Speaker 10 (21:50):
One example is let's four prisoners are living in one
shed house and the penitive part is that they can't
go wherever they want, whenever they want.

Speaker 9 (21:59):
They can't say their family whenever they want, They can't
have freedom of choice. They have to work every day,
they have to learn a skill.

Speaker 13 (22:06):
So they top up.

Speaker 10 (22:08):
They go to work in a skill, they come out at.

Speaker 9 (22:10):
The end of the day and they learn how to
use a computer.

Speaker 10 (22:13):
They learn how to set up their bills and finances
at the end of the day, et cetera. And they
also undergo psychologist psychological help or drugs, you know, like
group therapy or things that would them.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
Individual which is clearly working for the malan or when
it comes to the reoffending rate. But just back to
you know, your point about evidence, and when you look
at victims of crime, it's not always about evidence, is it?

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Is it?

Speaker 4 (22:40):
Because there would be many victims of crime in this country,
and whether that revenge or punishment of someone who did
them wrong led to that person improving their lives and
is less of a burden on society, it doesn't matter
to those victims. What they want to see is a
sense of justice and a sense of revenge, as Matt said,
So that comes into it as well.

Speaker 10 (23:02):
Yes, I also now there's a gottening account of lens
and I don't want to go toound to it, but
I don't want to.

Speaker 9 (23:06):
Point out to a lot of people who wouldn't from
this point of a lot of problems don't wonderful background
worth hearing.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Formally, Yeah, well that that's I mean that the cause
and effect part of justices of such a very very
very complicated issue. And yeah, I mean you could go
into that forever. Yeah, you know, and free to free
free will and the like. But thank you so much
for your call. Eleanor.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
Oh e one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the
number to call, What are your thoughts about extending prison
sentences and a bid to reduce reoffending rates. Love to
hear from you on our eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty if you've been in prison, if you've had experience
with rehabilitation programs in New Zealand, really keen to hear
from you. It is twenty seven to two.

Speaker 14 (23:52):
Jus Talk said the headlines with blue bubble taxis it's
no trouble with a blue bubble. A survey shows retail
workers are facing growing anti social behavior and crime, with
a large proportion going unreported. Disappointment uniform staff won't get
a pay rise in a major defense spend, although thirty

(24:12):
three millions been put aside for civilian staff rises. Adeneid
and Teen's been caught allegedly driving as new twenty nineteen
Ford Mustang GT late at night on the Southern Motorway,
going more than one hundred kilometers over the limit. Police
are looking into the assault of a sixteen year old
outside of property on Riverside Road in Auckland's audio on

(24:35):
Saturday night. NETSA says an alarming sixty eight percent rise
in reports of extortion over explicit videos and images could
be linked to organized crime. Westpac Enz's interim half year
profit has risen half a percent due to the rising
margin between its borrowing and lending. Meanwhile, Kiwi Banks lowering

(24:56):
long term home loan rates, with another OCR cut expected
this month. Unemployment set to rise to highest level in
nearly a decade. Read more from Leon dan ad In
said here or premium Now back to Matt Eithan Tyler Adams.

Speaker 4 (25:12):
Thank you very much, Ray Lean And we're talking about
this idea of longer prison sentences to reduce the reoffending rate.
It's something greatians Minister Mark Mitchell is looking into.

Speaker 15 (25:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
And any discussion about rehabilitation always, my mind always goes
to the greatest movie of all time, the Shortshank Redemption,
and Red goes into a rehabilitation meeting after he's been
in prison for forty years Alic spoid reading.

Speaker 16 (25:36):
If I'll say you served forty years of a life sentence,
you'll feel you've been rehabilitated. Rehabilitated. You know, I don't
have any idea what that means.

Speaker 17 (25:46):
Well, it means you're ready to rejoin society.

Speaker 16 (25:48):
I know, what do you think it means to me?
It's just a made up word, a politician's work. So
the young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and
a tie, have a job. What do you really want
to know? Am I sorry for what I did? As
not a day goes by, I don't feel regret, not
because I'm in here because you think, guy should I

(26:09):
look back on the way I was and a young,
stupid kids who committed that terrible crime.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
I want to talk to him.

Speaker 16 (26:16):
I want to try to talk to some sas to
him telling the way things are, But I can't. That
kid's long gone and as old man as all that's left,
I got to live with that rehabilitated.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
It's just a bullyshel word.

Speaker 16 (26:29):
So you go on and stamp your form, Sunny and
stop wasting my time. Because I tell you the truth,
I don't give a shit.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
It's a great scene, great acting, Morgan Freeman, fantastic, But
it sort of also highlights the point because his rehabilitation
was that he was just in there so long that
he have by the end of it, he was just
that he wasn't the same person anymore. So when we
talk about longer sentences, you know, you change a person

(26:58):
if they're in prison for a very very long time. Yes,
a lot of people pointing out that Norway and is
always put up and we're always beaten around the head
by Norway and Scandadavian countries around them doing better at
certain things than us. We often forget how wealthy they are,
in Norway's case, how much a lot of money, how
much money they get from fossil fuels, and how much
money they have, and how heavily they are taxed and

(27:19):
for social services. But they also don't have the same
gang problems that we do. And so you know, you know,
Norway's prisons aren't as full of gang members. That's something
people people don't point out, you know. And Norway doesn't
have as this Texas says, Noruay doesn't have a population
that are brought up with a victim mentality. There's a

(27:40):
lot of people there's a lot of differences between Norway
and New Zealand, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (27:43):
Absolutely. Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number
to call. Love to hear your thoughts about longer prison
sentences and rehabilitation in our system, if you've gone through it,
if you've been a part of it, I love to
hear from you on Old eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Well, you had a family member who worked in prisons
and another on the parole board.

Speaker 17 (28:00):
I didn't have to be careful. I can't identify them albishly.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yep.

Speaker 17 (28:04):
I used to be a use worker myself, and I
think the most important think first is that you have
to teach people, and you get nowhere until you do.
And that is there are consequences for actions. And I
learned in my sphere where I was working as a

(28:26):
youth worker, the consequences were just ridiculous. You know, write
a letter say you're sorry, and I'm also given, you know,
and that the young folks used to laugh about it.
They are getting off Scott now. As for my family
member who worked in the prison, she told me many

(28:49):
a time in regard to the rehabilitation. Look, there's people
that go into help and support and they're good people.
Don't get me wrong here. I don't want to knock them.
But the problem is they totally underfund rehabilitation. And that's
always being the case. It's never been different. It all

(29:11):
looks good on paper, but well a good example was
that chap that you listen the first guy that was
talking who said he had to be there for what
fourteen years before rehabilitation even started. You know, well, yeah,
that's crazy.

Speaker 6 (29:31):
I agree to that.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
So well when you were saying before that you were working,
you know, with youth, what sort of age group are
you thinking are you talking about and what kind of
consequences do you think should come in early?

Speaker 17 (29:47):
Well, you steal from someone, then you have to pay
the money back, right, you know, I'm into restitution, you know,
I'm into that. But a lot of times that doesn't happen.
You're going to judge say that the person's not economically
able to do it, and the well, probably the person

(30:09):
they stole from wasn't too happy about and probably didn't
have a lot of money when they lost what they lost.
You know, the same with cars things like this. It's
like we get into situations where people are paying back,
say a dollar a week or something. Where's the the
torrent in that, you know, as for locking them up

(30:30):
for longer just for the sake that you hope that
they'll turn out better. If you're not going to put
the wrap around services through, then you're just being political
and you're not actually trying to fix anything.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Well, I guess. I guess the argument against that, though, well,
would be that if someone's locked up, then they can't
commit crimes against the general public. So there is a
part of incarceration that is just getting them out of
the system.

Speaker 17 (30:55):
Well, I don't know, but it's not working because crime's
growing all the time. It's not going down, and we've
done the Look, I'm willing to give it a go,
but I think we sort of try everything. You cannot
let people out of prison with virtually no money. Now,
I can't see why they can't work for earnest in there.

(31:18):
We can find schemes and things like that, but I
see no reason for them to do that, because you're
as looking for trouble if you put someone out on street.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
The funny thing is with things like incarceration will there's
always a reason why things can't happen. So when they
start getting prisoners to work, people complain about the you know,
competing with other people for the same workout in the
you know, out in the commercial sector. And they also
complain about the you know, whether people are just using

(31:47):
prisoners as workers, and so it does get complicated in
that regard, but also is exactly what you're saying if
people could work hard in prison and actually be creating
something and then they get that money when they get
out and have a start. There seems to be a
little bit of logic in that.

Speaker 17 (32:05):
Absolutely lo but we want to be teaching skills, so
it's all. Look, I can't be bothered with these people who,
you know, they just want to lock up and throw
away the key, because sooner or later that door does
open and they do come out. And I want to
see I would like to see real rehabilitation take place,

(32:26):
and I want to see people men and women in
prison able to earn I'm not talking a lot of
money here, you know. I don't think they should be
paid the going rate, you know, I don't because that
can be part of the punishment giving back to society.
But to at least have enough money to come out

(32:48):
and not have to turn around and go and see
something else because they can't afford a loaf of bread
or something.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, I think of you. Cool.

Speaker 4 (32:56):
Well, oh one hundred eighteen eighty. If you've employed someone
who's been released from prison, love to have a chat
with you. I understand there are you know, outreach programs
that when a prisoner is released. They don't have too
much support from the prison system or the government, but
there are organizations that try and get them into work.

(33:16):
And if you're someone who employed those people, how did
it turn out for you? Did it turn out well?
Did you what sort of hoops did you have to
jump through to make sure they were going to work out?
Oh eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number
to call.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Here's a text on nine two ninety two that sums
up what a lot of people are sending through. It's
not a problem until it happens to you and your family.
The do good is saying prison is not the answer.
Would have a completely different view if it was their
child that was attacked or murdered. Easy to say when
it happens to others.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
Yeah, and that's it. It is fourteen to two.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Matd Heath Taylor Adams taking your calls on Oh, eight
hundred and eighty ten eighty. It's mad Heathen Tyler Adams
afternoons news talks.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
They'd be very good afternoon to you. It is twelve
to two two and we're talking about rehabilitation programs within
our New Zealand prisons Chrestians. Minister Mark Mitchell was looking
into longer prison sentences because he sees the evidence is
clear that that reduces rere rates. How do you feel
about that?

Speaker 2 (34:10):
This this text here from Mike as a prison as
a cleaner in prison, I think the pay is forty
cents per hour, so you know, you got to put
a lot of hours in before you've got some money
when you get out. But I'm pretty sure that in
New Zealand we don't have that situation that that happens
in the States sometimes, or historically happened in the States
where prisons would tender for work. You know the famous

(34:30):
making number plates cliche. So prisons would tend to tender
for work and be able to get these these you know,
these jobs and these contracts because their workforce.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
Was very, very cheap, undercut everybody. Yeah, Kerrie, what's your
view on this one.

Speaker 11 (34:48):
I've got a pretty broad view on the whole thing.
I work in the supporter, I've worked in dragon alcohol,
and I've also worked in disabilities and mental health and
a lot of with a lot of people who have
been in prison or are looking at going into prison,
and that the ones that are in their long term

(35:11):
they just become better criminals. They get educated in how
to be deceitful, how to work in stealth mode. You know,
they what they don't know when they go in there,
they certainly learn.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
So is there a big difference between say, someone that's
been in I'm just going to grab a number two years,
and someone that's been in for teen years that you
can notice some of them and it's been in there
for teen years, is more likely in your opinion, to
remain a criminal than someone that's been in the effort.

Speaker 11 (35:39):
For Yeah, they are. They get recruited by the gangs
that are in there, and then they end up working
for them inside. And what they don't learn about gang business,
I guess they learn in there. So I don't think
long longest sentences.

Speaker 13 (35:55):
Is the way they go.

Speaker 11 (35:56):
What are the shortest sentences you will find for minor
offenses like drugs, driving offenses, that sort of stuff, And
you know the commissioner wants to make these sentences longer.
I'm not sure if that's the right road to go down. Yes,
we do need rehabilitation. I really don't know what the

(36:16):
answer is, but all I know is from my experience,
the longer they're in there, the more they learn in
criminal care.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Have you ever worked with anyone that has been in
there for really long terms, over twenty year type terms.

Speaker 11 (36:31):
Yes, I have, Yes, I have. I worked with someone
who has murdered somebody.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh well, and did that hold true.

Speaker 11 (36:38):
That he learnt more? I guess because he had support.
The only the only reason we connected was I was
running a karate club and he came along to one
of the sessions and I ended up working with him
and just having a purpose out there and a passion

(36:58):
because he had a bit of a passion for Japanese
things and Japanese etiquette and that sort of stuff. And
I think if that support wasn't there, he hadn't been
able to work with him, it would be a different story.
Now he's a really decent person, really decent family member,

(37:21):
and you know, obviously he reflects on his time. He
did twelve.

Speaker 4 (37:25):
Years for murder, right, and he's remorseful.

Speaker 11 (37:30):
Oh absolutely, I mean it was it was an interesting murder.
His partner was a paraplegict and someone broke into the
house and rape it. So he found out who that
person was and sought revenge.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
And yeah, well a lot of people that this is
what happens Carrie.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Every time you talk about this crime and prison and
rehabilitation and justice, it gets so complicated because there's always
these edge cases like this that that were it's hard
to get your head around the philosophy of it all.

Speaker 11 (38:13):
So I don't know what the answer is, but definitely
longer sentences, it's not the answer. You're just going to
be making a more knowledgeable, harder to catch criminals.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
Carry Thank you so much for your call. Carry Oh,
one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number to
call love to hear your thoughts. It is seven to two.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Matt Heath Tylor Adams taking your calls on eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty. It's mad Heath and Tylor Adams.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
Afternoons News TALKSB, News Talks THEB five to two. There's
a lot of people want to have a chat about this.
We're going to carry it on after the news.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
This Texas says prisons there has three purposes in order
of priority, protect society, punished criminals for their crimes against society.
Offer rehabilitation after the success of their first two And
that's quite a complicated part of it. There is this
idea and I think we will buy into it. If
someone does something terrible, then something terrible needs to happen
to them.

Speaker 6 (39:07):
That's justice.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, it's justice. It doesn't make the universe better or
write things, but it does things in our mind. And
it gets very very odd for people that are victims
of serious crime or members of their families of victims
of serious crime, if the focus is too too much
on the good of the person who has committed the
crime and society at large. And it gets very complicated,

(39:30):
doesn't it.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
Oh, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number
to call. As I say, we're going to pick this
back up after the two o'clock news, so love to
hear your thoughts on it. If you want to send
a text more than welcome. Nine to nine to two
is the text number. News Sport and whether coming up.
Great to have your company as always. You're listening to
Matt and Tyler. Very good afternoon to you.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Isn't it something the middle.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Little talking with you all afternoon. It's Matt Heathen Taylor
Adams News Talks.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
It'd be good afternoon to you. Welcome back to the program.
Seven past too great to have your company as always,
and we're talking about rehabilitation in our prison system. Also
longer prison sentence is it something creations Minister Mark Mitchell
was looking into as we speak. He argues that longer
prison sentences would lower the reoffending rate, which as it

(40:30):
stands is very very ludicrous, I mean dishonesty charges. The
reoffending rates seventy nine percent, for property offenses sixty one percent,
violence sixty one percent.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, isn't it, Because it's slightly
more complicated than that that all things are, and that
the type of crimes that you're in for a less
time for the type of crimes that you're more likely
to reoffend in. But there's a lot of different reasons
why people are sent to prison, and a lot of
reasons why society want to send people to prison. Is

(41:03):
it the justice and for one of a better word,
as I keep say, revenge for the crime you've done,
you know, in honor of the victim or the victim's family.
Is it keeping them off the streets, so you're just
incarcerating the people so they can't crimes. Is it rehabilitation?
There's a lot of different reasons why we send people

(41:24):
to prison. This Texas says. Dave says, I've spent many
years in prison. I've worked in many different jobs in jail,
from kitchen work, farming, painting, construction, precast concreting pays not
great fourteen bucks a week, but it's all about feeling
useful normal. I've done many programs, some good, some not
worth the time put into them. Prison does not fix anyone, However,

(41:45):
some people are better to stay in there. I guess
it comes down to getting the right people, making the
right calls, a discretion longer sentence for some and shorter
for those that choose change.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
And this one says, guys, I've done short sentences and
long sentences over a decade, and I can honestly say
neither of them stood out as the turning point of
my life. If anything, the longest sentences left me less
well prepared for release because my time away I lost
pretty much everyone from my support network and had to
start all over again with zero support from the government.

(42:16):
In my opinion, this is just Mark Mitchell trying to
kick the can down the road and get the data
he needs to show he's tough on crime.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
With Craig says, we really have it badly and sadly wrong.
Discussions always deter the offender, always veer towards the offender
and not the victim. We need to be much tougher
for offenders long as sentences definitely or at least sentences
without discounts serve the time, then when that completed, provided
rehab back into society. But we must be tough on crime.

(42:45):
So that's an interesting point. So what he's saying is
and there's not a lot of people that are disagreeing
with this, And we talked to Tim before, and we
talk to other prisoners that have come out of prison,
and how difficult it is when you first hit the
ground because you have no support network. Arguably, if you've
been in there for a long time, you've got no
where to be and you don't have the skills to
live in a normal society. So well, that textas saying

(43:10):
was very very hard on crime, but as quite quite
open to softer landings when you actually get out there,
because I think you leave prison with three hundred and
fifty bucks, that's.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
What Tim was saying, yep. And then arguably you go
to a halfway house or some other minor accommodation that
the government may provide for you. Maybe not, as you say,
you've got no skills. There is the stigma attached to
you being a prisoner trying to get a job. Many
employees would look at that and say, no way, no way,
am I employing an next prisoner. So it is you know,

(43:40):
of course, there's a lot of victims probably screaming at
the radio now saying shut up, Tyler. If you've ever
been a victim of a crime, you would have no
sympathy for these guys. But the reality is that they
are going to continue to be a burden on society.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Well, yeah, if they've done the time, and that'll be
another point of contention, whether people actually do do the time.
If they've done the time and you've decided that that's
what they needed to do, then either their toxic waste
and they're done for, or we do something to help
them when they get back out into society.

Speaker 4 (44:11):
Exactly. Oh one hundred and eighteen eighty is the number
to call of your thoughts on.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
This, Brunetta, welcome to the show. Your thoughts on prison rehabilitation.

Speaker 18 (44:21):
Oh gosh, so many. I'll try and condense it. What
would you like to know? So a bit about me
I've gone from being a teacher, high school teacher, to
not being quite satisfied, to being a counselor school counselor,
to then being inspired like case manager overseas in the community,
different diverse communities. I keep studying, I keep trying to

(44:42):
get to a place where I'm going to have some
impact on someone. Got all the way to Policy Group, Justice,
Ministry of Justice and really passionate about contributing my frontline experience.
I found that that wasn't really my cup of tea.
I'm not one to sit and research deeply all day. However,
I still have very good friends there. From there, I
moved on to this Department of Corrections National Office. Now

(45:05):
this is where mister Mitchell will wish he had responded
to my letter and actually my invitation to speak with him,
because this is really I don't even normally listen to
the station. My partner's just popped and said, you might
want to ring. This has really gotten under my skin. Like, firstly,
I would like to say to him that these are

(45:26):
people with families. They have got brothers, they've got fathers,
they've got daughters and sons. There's someone's you know, nephew
so why are we treating prisoners like they are animals
or something? They even in jail they say it's a
muster blowout. I mean, it's a toom you used for animals.
So when I worked at the Department of Corrections, I

(45:46):
was tasked with doing a review of a program called
ted ted or Hunger where they have cultural connection, learn
their culture, and they felt great. Like I was really
scared before I went into a prison for.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
The first time.

Speaker 18 (45:58):
Couldn't sleep all night, you know, I thought, are they going.

Speaker 13 (46:00):
To molest me?

Speaker 6 (46:01):
Abuse me?

Speaker 18 (46:01):
What's going to happen to me? I get out into
a courtyard at Hawk's Bay Prison and I'm surrounded with
men who just want to connect and talk to someone.
And I tell you what, when I came out of there,
the sadness that I felt listening like just a little
bit to every.

Speaker 15 (46:17):
Single one of them.

Speaker 18 (46:18):
There's all been victims of crime. So why are we
not for you know, remembering that part, well.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
I guess, I guess. You know, there's there's more sides
to it as well. So what do you think in
terms of the the you know, the victim of the
direct crime that the person that in prison has committed.
Do you think that there needs to be a punitive
element and a revenge element. Basically a justice is how
you call it, because you've committed a crime. So part
of prison, as hard as it is, is to right

(46:48):
that wrong and and to help the victim of that
crime to move forward.

Speaker 18 (46:52):
Is it really helping that victim when the sentence is
handed done. I mean that might that might feel quite satisfying,
but what it's not helping is society when they come
out really just spaced out because they can't function, filled
with anxiety. And I know this because I accompanied a
young person the other day. You know, just kept taking
his phone calls. I've even just missed a phone call

(47:14):
from Auckland prison, but I kept taking his phone calls
just to keep the hope alive. Because I tell you,
the suicide raids on romand especially as something that we
need to pay attention to. So if you think the
world is moving on without you, you become isolated, feel
like no one's caring about you. Look, of course, those
heinous crime need accountability, but those men, and I'm speaking
for a number of young men that I've worked with,

(47:36):
cannot connect with emotions because they just have gone past
that point of caring because no one cares for them.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
You know.

Speaker 18 (47:43):
Let's just I mean, at which point is mister Mitchell
going to stop? Are we going to end up like
Saudi Arabia chopping their fingers off or something. I'm sorry
but that might sound ridiculous, but I just want to
say something about this narrative that is really annoying me
and the multiple letters I've written to ministers that they
are not responding. In fact, I think it's a two

(48:04):
billion dollar prison being built, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
So someone's going to fill them up.

Speaker 18 (48:08):
That's what fifty percent ma just.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
Just jimping in their brunette. Because to be fair to
Mark Mitchell, this is the quote in the story. So
he talked about longer sentences that gives prisoners better access
to rehabilitation programs, and he says, I quote, that is
where you get handled a minute. That is where you
get the greatest gains. That is where you get the
greatest gains in terms of rehabilitating people, in successfully reintegrating

(48:32):
them into society, rather than pushing them straight back out
into the community where there's too much risk around reoffending
and more victims. And there is some evidence.

Speaker 18 (48:41):
Relates to he had some good comms assistant right there.
But I'll tell you what evident is that from what
I've seen, I came out with someone by the way,
for the family that have someone in there, you can
stand up and address the judge. Your boy just has
to tell the judge that they want that. So that's
called a section twenty seven cultural report. You can actually
do that verbally. So I advocated for someone, and yes

(49:02):
they did get a generous discount, this thing that this
government is putting a stop to, by the way and
capping at forty per So this young man got fifty
five percent, thanks in part for my advocating. And I'm
really glad I did that because he deserves better.

Speaker 17 (49:15):
Yes he has, what a fact the thing?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
But what about, say, the other part of prison Brunetta,
which is that you're getting but you're getting.

Speaker 18 (49:23):
Let me finish about the rehabilitation, because I haven't answered
that question. Actually, So what I'm saying about mister Mitchell
saying that is that, So I asked the young man, ah,
so they're doing more rehabilitation now, you know in your
couple of years in there, and he's only twenty two,
so in your couple of years in there. Which programs
did you do?

Speaker 16 (49:42):
Oh?

Speaker 18 (49:42):
I got a couple of booklets. I mean I said, okay,
twenty two hours a day in your cell or twenty
three a lot of the time, Like this is inhumane,
and a chief ombudsman, Peter Boshier has.

Speaker 4 (49:53):
Said that what what what crime did?

Speaker 2 (49:55):
What crime did? What crime did? The what crime did
the twenty two year old commit?

Speaker 18 (50:01):
Ah, he just did something stupid. Actually, this is something else.
He was with a group and it's probably pressure. He
started to walk away, but his friends started attacking someone,
you know, kicking them and stealing their wallets, something stupid.
So this young man did something good and started walking
away and touched that mate to say, come on, let's go. Now,
what do you think happens to him if he just

(50:21):
decides to walk away as he's part of a gang.
So that's the other thing I want to say to
the men in there, the gangs, especially, leave our young
men alone. They don't need that life. What do we
want more, Maori to keep on being gang members and
hurting each other?

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Yeah, okay, well, thank you for your cal We've definitely
given us a lot to the process there. Yeah, absolutely
this is sening a lot. There was a bit of
a shotgun machine gun attack there of words.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
Yeah, and you know, I think going back to the
idea of rehabilitation and Brunetta mentioned there she had to
go at the gangs. Of course, I mean, who wouldn't
have a go at the gangs and what they they
bring some of these young men into and accountability as
she mentioned. But going back to rehabilitation, and that was
what Mark Mitchell was talking about here.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
In this textas responding to Brunetta, congratulations and getting a
criminal of fifty five percent discount, Did it make us
crime fifty five percent less aggressive towards the victim? I
don't think it would have.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
Yeah, good point. It is eighteen pasts two be free, surely.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I'll tell you what. It is a complex issue and
there's a lot of gray area there and there's a
lot of passion from both sides and we love that.
So nine ten nine two, eight hundred eighty ten.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Eighty your home of Afternoon Talk, Matt Heathen, Taylor Adams
Afternoons call eight hundred eighty ten eighty News Talk said, be.

Speaker 4 (51:39):
Curd afternoon. There's some great texts coming through on this idea.
Of longer prison sentences to reduce the reoffending rate.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Yeah, Matt and Tyler. Our judicial process replace indebtors. Sentencing
needs to take into account the harm caused. No discounts
from Lionel. Yeah, that's something that people forget, And I
was trying to get to that point really that we
in our society, if someone does something terrible to someone,
then instead of us going out and taking that into
our hands, we hand that power over to the government

(52:11):
and the courts ye to dish that out. And if
the government doesn't do that, then we can get into it,
and we get into a society where people just take
that into their own hands. Then that is anarchy, and
that is a terrible society.

Speaker 4 (52:23):
Eye for an eye.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
So, you know, you may think it's magical thinking and
the universe. We're thinking that the universe is out of
kilter because someone's committed a crime and needs to get
balanced by something happening to that person. But it's more
than that. Society is held together by handing over violence
to their government. And when I say violence, violence including
taking someone's freedom off them. So it's a crucial part

(52:48):
of us all agreeing to be part of the society.
And if people start to think that something terrible has
happened to their family and or themselves and there's no
one going to help them at all, then that leads
to people doing it themselves.

Speaker 4 (53:03):
Absolutely, and that's why we've all got a stake in
this debate, as Mark Mitchell investigates, with a longer sentences
would be better for us as a society and the
justice system. It's something we should all care deeply about.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Kevin says crimea river bleeding heart should be kept away
from any decision making. She can't help, but she should
not be given any say so at all. Something stupid,
Whereas this woman coming from obviously she thinks some of
these murders are just Kevin's very angry about it.

Speaker 4 (53:30):
Yeah, I mean that is a.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Really really good point around your emotions being a big
part of the legal system. The legal system should be emotionless,
you would hope to a certain extent. They've had these
studies that they've done where parole has been decided without
talking to the person, just purely on the facts, as

(53:53):
opposed to parole when you meet the person, and the
reoffending is much less when emotions and emotional manipulation aren't
brought into decision making.

Speaker 4 (54:05):
I've got to say it. I didn't mention this, but
I actually set in a para hearing down in christ
Church Prison and there were three prisoners that were before
the prole board and they were there for some pretty
heenous crimes. But the reaction from the panel it would
be best described as cult emotionless. There was no I mean,
it was very slow and deliberate. The prisoners tried to

(54:28):
make the best argument they could on why they should
be paroled. But I've got to say, you know, there
was the there was zero emotion from the panel in
front of.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Them, zero motions shown. But that doesn't mean that the
zero empathy getting inside. Yeah, you're decision making, and when
you see a person and you hear them tell their story,
you know, all humans are going to tend to give them,
you know, more time then just some numbers on a
paper or some stats or just crimes described and what

(55:01):
they've done in prison, you know, described in text.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
That is true. Yeah, yeah, oh, one hundred and eighteen
eighty is the number to call. It is twenty four
p us to back very shortly here on New Still.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
CB and we'll talk to Lee who's spent seventeen years inside.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
Matt Heathen Tyler Adams afternoons call oh eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty on Youth Talk ZB.

Speaker 4 (55:24):
News Talk Zi B. Lee. You had seventeen years in prison.

Speaker 12 (55:30):
Yes, I committed a crime, a Heeneus crime. I was
summoned to eleven and a half years. I ended up
doing just under eighteen. Took me that long to get out.
I'm deeply, deeply ashamed and felt a lot he built
around what I did. But moving on from that, when

(55:51):
I first went to prison, there was a lot of
There was a lot of programs. I think, I think
for me, when people talk about rehabilitation nowadays, these you know,
people think that they're talking about programs, do this program
to that program. I think what what I saw was
when I first went to prison, you were unlocked eight
to ten hours a day. You had access to work,

(56:15):
you had access to woodshopped engineering, charming. People could do
like NCAA programs and re educate themselves. When I left,
and even now when I still write letters to people
that are still in there, they're locked down for twenty
two to twenty three hours a day. You can do

(56:36):
you can you do three quarters of your sentence locked
in a room for twenty two to twenty three hours
a day, and then in the last quarter of your
sentence you go to a program and then you get
released and people are angry. You can't lock a person
down for twenty two too, you into three hours a day.
I have been.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Why have they why have they started? You know why
they change? Do you think?

Speaker 11 (57:01):
Ly?

Speaker 12 (57:02):
The initial? The initial? The initial reasons so every time
every time they take something away, you ever get it back.
So the initial was staff numbers, then it became COVID,
then it became budget. Judith Collins was Judith Collins was
when she was the minister. She basically was the change

(57:22):
everything she implemented. There was actually a time when Judith
Collins came in and it was a very big time
for inmates. It was that was that was basically it
was going to go through like a starlug conditions. That's
that's how we on the inside saw it. She pulled back.
They ended up getting voted out, but it was it

(57:46):
was If she had stayed in, you would have got
a very very angry inmate. She would have created a
very angry inmate.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Now Lee. You say that you were in prison and
you feel deeply remorseful for the crime you commit. Do
you think that part of or what part of your
sentence was, know you being punished for what?

Speaker 6 (58:11):
What?

Speaker 2 (58:11):
What? What? What you did? And do you think that
you you're that punishment as has helped you to be
able to deal with your remorse in any way?

Speaker 12 (58:19):
No, No, I think to a certain extent, I needed
the punishment. I appreciate that the punishment was available to
me because I needed that time to reflect, learn and grow.
But also at the same time, I would have appreciated
if I had had access to educational programs, just just

(58:46):
work skills, just being able to I mean as simple
things like learning getting a driver's license, a driver's license
and things like that. Just a lot of people go
in there. There is no n c A there, there is.
I came from the schools here. You don't get out
of the school. See you get out with the NCAA
Level one, level two and that's it.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
So how long and were you in prison before for
you starters, you know, taking up opportunities in prison for
for you know, work.

Speaker 12 (59:15):
And I tried to, tried to, I tried to straight
away I tried to straight away, and for the first
seven to eight years I was denied anything because I
was told, you're doing too long. You'll pick up something
towards the end of your course, towards the end of
your sentence. At the moment, we can't offer you anything.
We can't give you anything. And then it was just

(59:36):
share determination. Every time I saw somebody leave to go
to a program or something, I'd run over and hustle
and hustle and hustle until I could. And they just
got sick of me nagging them and started putting me
on things. But if I'd left it to the allocation
of my case managers, I would have I would have
got nothing until the last two to three years.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
How are you doing? Ali?

Speaker 12 (59:58):
Coming out into from a paper society into a digital
society was an absolute struggle.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Wow.

Speaker 12 (01:00:06):
They talked about higher situations and they say to you, oh,
the higher situation you're going to encounter is running so
old associates or drunk drunk drinking and alcohol and drugs.
And it was moving from a paper society to a
digital society. And the other one was was no money
and no support. They created this verbal market. You have

(01:00:29):
all these people. They say, oh, this business.

Speaker 13 (01:00:31):
Program is that program?

Speaker 12 (01:00:33):
My partner at the moment, she's in corporate, and we've
actually had arguments. We sh oh, my best friend does this,
and my best friend does that, and they've created this
and they've created that. And now she's even got to
realize that it's very paper focus, very front focused. They
are offering help, they are offering assistance, but there's actually

(01:00:53):
nobody doing the programs that they've got. There's nobody in
the programs that they've implemented. They might have one or
two people and a budget of one hundred thousand dollars,
but nobody's actually getting help from them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Now, Lee, what crime did you commit? And you think
the sentence you got was fear for the crime you committed.

Speaker 12 (01:01:13):
I committed a murder, and at the first parole board hearing,
I asked for a three years stand down. I didn't
want to be released. I wanted to stay in there.
My mindset was was I'd stay in there. Now my
mindset was was I shouldn't be released. I didn't deserve
to be realist, And how do.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
You feel about that now that you've you've spent seventeen
years in prison?

Speaker 12 (01:01:37):
I still struggle with every day. It was the prole board.
It was the problem. The proboard stood me down for
two years.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
And for me.

Speaker 12 (01:01:45):
That the way that I was I the way that
I was perceiving my offense, I need to I need
to honor the victim by trying to get back, by
by sitting in the soul and doing nothing for the
rest of my life. Wasn't honoring the person's life that

(01:02:06):
I'd taken.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Okay, Well, it's and do you think when do you
think you're in danger of reoffending in that time that
you were in.

Speaker 12 (01:02:22):
I wasn't in danger of reoffending. But I definitely it's
a good place to grow up. It's a good place
to self evaluate, and it's a it's a good place
to reflect, and it's a good place to learn. I
hear people talk about the gang problem and the recruitment
in prison. I can tell you one thing about that

(01:02:46):
is when you're in there, a lot of the people
that get recruited they're not the okay, so they're getting
recruited by gangs. What they're actually getting recruited by is
the first male role model that they ever come across
in their entire life. And you might say, oh, there's
a gang memory business. Okay, So I had young men
that would come and clean my cell in the They

(01:03:09):
would do my dishes, they would sweep my floor, they
would do this, they would do that. They it was
the first time they've ever had structure. It was the
first time they've ever had discipline. They come out of
the yards, they train with us, they would you know,
it's the first time they'd ever had it in their
entire lives. They felt a sense of belonging. And yes, okay,
so it's a gang environment. If you put those young boys,

(01:03:31):
this is this is this is the argument for boot camps.
If you put those young boys into a boot camp situation,
they would it would be exactly the same. They would
all become army officers. Every single one of them would
become an army officer.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Well, thank you so much for your call, Lee and
sharing your story.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
Absolutely very much on, very full on, and thank you
to everybody phoned antiques on that one. Headlines coming up.
Then we have got a new topic on the table
and there's twenty five to three.

Speaker 14 (01:03:59):
You talk headlines with blue bubble taxings, it's no trouble
with a blue bubble Northland MP Grant and McCallum says
tackling regional meth the issues won't be a quick fix
and requires the community to support efforts. Napui leader Mane
Tahe is asking police to do more drug raids. Retail

(01:04:19):
ends says retailers need to report all crime after a
survey showed rising levels. About forty percent of crime and
anti social behavior goes unreported. Fire and Emergency says it's
scrutinizing an Employment Relations Authority decision about a firefighter who
pulled colleagues allowances to get shared meals. The authority found

(01:04:42):
it unlawfully accessed his bank account. A person seriously injured
after a single vehicle crash on Blockhouse Bay Road in
Auckland's Avondale. Beef cattle are the standout among reducing livestock
populations over the past decade. In other data, our grasslands
reduced eight hundred and nine thousand hectares and Kiwi fruit

(01:05:03):
areas grew by three and a half thousand hectares. Two
more Hawks farm sold to overseas buyer for forestry. You
can see the story at n Said Herald Premium. Now
back to matt Ethan Tyler Adams.

Speaker 4 (01:05:15):
Thank you very much, ray Lean, and we're changing tach
over the next hour or so. We want to talk
about AI in schools.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Yes, actually quite surprised after the ear and half we
didn't solve the situation with rehabilitation.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
Surprise, isn't it. You know, I already thought we'd nail
it in ninety minutes, but.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
I backed myself to get to the bottom of it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:33):
It certainly was full on, absolutely, so thank you to
everybody who phoned and text on that one. But let's
chat about AI in school. So the Ministry of Education
said AI poses significant challenges for a school, so the
technology is currently governed by each school's board, while the
Ministry encourages school to develop a policy. So there is
some inconsistency there with the way that AI is utilized

(01:05:56):
within schools and a self reported serve A sixty percent
of students reported using that AI to assist them with schoolwork.
And it is a big question and it's not just
the students using AI, it is the school and the
teachers themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Yeah, so are your kids using AI to do their
homework at school? And what do you think about this?
And what do you think about AI? Marking papers, because
that's what's happening now, and that's going to happen more.
Do you want teachers spending their time carefully marking papers
if AI can free them up to do other things?
Do you think that's a good thing? Or do you
find it kind of creepy that your kid's paper just

(01:06:31):
gets shoved through AI and then a mark comes out
the other side. At the moment there it's being overseen
by humans. But you can see the time in the future,
I mean absolutely, with you know, a maths exam or
a math test, right, some of those some of those
answers are just objective. Yes, But if it's an English paper,
then would you trust AI to read it and see

(01:06:54):
the and see you know, what you're trying to get at?
I mean? And then how do you feel about AI
training itself? Because AI models, you know, they're large language
learning models, so everything that goes in they used to learn.
So how do you feel about your kids work being
used to train AI models?

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
I mean it's an interesting one.

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
Marking critical thinking, Like if you're writing about an essay
as you say English, that to me is crazy using
AI to try and mark that stuff. That's where it
needs human nuance and understanding.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
But what about a simple situation where you've got a
You've got a teacher that's having to read this incredibly long,
boring load of rubbish from a student that is trying
to trick you with flowery writing, and then AI just goes,
what are you know? You Sai? What are the ten
bullet points in here? And it goes bomb boom boom,

(01:07:47):
and you go, okay, well, I think they ticked off
the key things. Because that's what people don't understand about
marking is that teachers, and this is what I told
my kids, when they go into exams, they're looking for
things that they can tack off to give your mark, right,
So your your piece of writing has to have the
things in it to tack off. So they go through
and they read it and go, yep, got that one point,

(01:08:08):
got that one, got on that, And that's how they
work at your score. So it's it's regimented already largely.
And if you're really clever at doing exams, you'll you'll
you'll spend the time to find out what it is
needed to get the marks and you'll put that in
whatever you write.

Speaker 4 (01:08:26):
Yeah, I still think you need that teacher's I across it,
whether you run it through they run it through AI
initially and then have a look at it to make
sure AI has corrarecked it. But that defeats the purpose, right,
But if you're having to double check AI's marking ability.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Yeah, well but okay, so just AI and schools in general,
I personally think it'd be crazy if that's the world
that kids are entering, Right, They're entering a world where
people are going to use AIS at all. I mean,
they might be entering a world where AI completely replaces them,
but they're definitely entering a world where AI is going
to be a big part of their lives. So it's

(01:09:01):
crazy if schools don't lean in it to a certain extent.
The elephant in the room being detecting whether aware a
kid has just got AI to do all their work
for them.

Speaker 4 (01:09:10):
Yeah, but what about the picking up of skills? I
mean as AI is that doing a disservice maybe to
some children if they are primarily using AI to get
answers to questions without figuring out that problem for themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Well, yeah, that is the thing as well in terms
of critical thinking. If you you know, if you are
always using AI as a crutch. Do you never develop
the skills? You know, brain just turned to mush and
you know, like someone that's always in bed and isn't
walking around, their legs quickly stopped working.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
Yeah, I mean it is everywhere. Just on the weekend
and it was a family member. They were over in
Melbourne and they saw a whole bunch of people marching
and everybody in the family chat said what are they doing?
And they just sent back a weee screenshot of chat
GPT saying what the march was about. I thought, okay,
that's kind of way we got to now AI Chat
GPT is just the new Googles.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Well one hundred and eighteen eighty. I'd love to hear
from teachers on this and students on that's possible to
hear student maybe there's one that's where today or as
I sick or something, or someone that's recently left school,
how much AI is being used and how much AI
they think should be used.

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
Yeah, love to hear from you. Oh, eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number to call. It is sixteen
to three back three shortly here listening to Matt and Tyler.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Your home of afternoon talk Mad Heathen Tyler Adams afternoons
call Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty US talk.

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
ZEDB News Talks THEREB. We're talking about AI in schools.
Up to sixty percent of students are using AI to
assist them with schoolwork. But it's not just the students,
the teachers are using it as well. Love to hear
your thoughts. How do you feel about teachers using AI
to mark your children's work? Oh, eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty And is there a place for students to

(01:11:00):
be utilizing that technology in order to complete their studies?
Nine two ninety two is the text number as well
if you want to send a tech Andrew, you want
to have a chat about the role of critical thinking?

Speaker 19 (01:11:13):
Okaday, Tyler? How are you?

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
I'm good?

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
What am I chop lover? Andrew? Do I not exist?

Speaker 19 (01:11:19):
No one's introduced as ship, so you know, Matt, I
just thought i'd leave it at that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
Andrew, Hello, my name is My name is Matthew, I'm an.

Speaker 6 (01:11:28):
Eries, I'm Andrew.

Speaker 19 (01:11:33):
A long time.

Speaker 6 (01:11:35):
There.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Please to meet Andrew. I think we're going to be friends.

Speaker 4 (01:11:38):
Ye, best buds now anyway, Sorry, you had a good
point today.

Speaker 19 (01:11:44):
I guess my question is both sides of the coin
use AI. So the student uses it to write whatever
they're doing or perform their homework or test, and the
teachers use it to market. At what point does critical
thinking stop existing? And Tyler, Yeah, that's only using existing

(01:12:05):
information to produce the work.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
And then Mark, Yeah, what's the saying for AI? Garbage
and garbage out? So if it's it can become.

Speaker 19 (01:12:16):
Secular, which is no different how I used to say.
I mean, I'm in my mid fifty selves all libraries
and books, and you know what you be ify research, creit,
I produce CREP.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Yeah, I mean, I guess.

Speaker 19 (01:12:34):
There's a danger that we cease to be able to
think we'll always follow the same path of learning rather
than elon masks of the world. Not that I want
to hang the head on his and but you know
those people just don't exist anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Well, it's an interesting thing as well. And I'm not
sure the exact nuance on this, but you hear from
say YouTube creators, and there's an algorithm that they have
to feed, so they work out how to make content
that feeds the algorithm. I feed the algorithm means it
puts up what the algorithm will share and that what
people will watch, and so they start changing what they

(01:13:15):
create to fit what the algorithm wants, and then as
a result, they stop making what they want originally started
making in a creative faction and are actually just beholden
to the algorithm. So you can kind of see a
situation that could happen. If you are being marked by AI,
then you will then kids will be trained by AI

(01:13:38):
to produce what AI wants.

Speaker 19 (01:13:40):
If you AI, it is to me it's rote learning
to the eat degree. We need not like Rote learning,
But AI in my head is antithesis of you know,
it just absolutely screams repetition and I it makes me

(01:14:01):
feel like the world is going to be controlled only
by those who are code writers program as opposed to
write the algorithms. And that's an ever decreasing number of people.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Yeah, thank you, Zechlandrew, or more likely controlled by the
creations of those people that wrote the code as the
code starts writing itself.

Speaker 4 (01:14:23):
But it's just a big for you. You have to
be able to question AI, particularly the AI that we're
experiencing now. And I, you know, chet GPT is the
one that I've used, but so many times, the way
that it views a particular problem or challenge is questionable.
You can you know it's not black and white. There
is some nuance there in some of those elements that
AI can try and get all the information that's been

(01:14:45):
fed and give you the best possible answer that it thinks.
But it's not always. It's not always black and white.

Speaker 13 (01:14:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
But what we do find out sometimes, Tyler, is that
humans aren't as complex as we think we are. We
think that we're widely varying beings that have this universe
of potential ideas. I was at Takabuna Beach the other day,
Lovely Beach, and I was walking my dog, and I
was in a line of people that were walking their
dogs one end of the beach, the other, tapping the

(01:15:13):
wall and coming back. And I said to my son,
we're just ants. Let me So all of us have
had the same idea to have a dog, because we've
evolved to have dogs, and because dogs were useful at
one point in our history. So we've got a dog,
and we've all woken up on the Sunday morning and
had the same idea that we're going to go to
the beach. And because we're all very similar. Already we've

(01:15:34):
decided to walk the length of the beach, all holding
a coffee in the same hand, touch the wall, and
go all the way all the way back.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
And how nice was it? And how much of a
good boy is Colin?

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
Yeah, well that's true. Colin's a very good boy. He's
such a good boy. If you're listening, Colin, I left
the rady on. You're a good boy, Colin, you're a
good boy. Colin, go outside, do away in the backyard.

Speaker 4 (01:15:55):
Does he need to be sold there?

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Where the cat's gone? Where are the cat?

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
Did he get a cat?

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
When I say that, it goes?

Speaker 4 (01:15:59):
Where are the cats?

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
Anyway, you've derailed me. The point is not that Colin's
a very good boy. It's that we think that we've
got these wild variation of ideas, but maybe we don't,
and maybe AI can can read us very accurately.

Speaker 4 (01:16:11):
It's a good point. Oh wait, undred and eighty ten
eighty eighty. You feel about AI use in schools, whether
it's by the students or teachers, love to hear from you.
It is eight to three?

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
Where are the cats gone? Where are the cats go?
For the cats?

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
The issues that affect you and a bit of fun
along the way. Matt Heathen, Taylor Adams Afternoons News TALKSB
News Talks AB.

Speaker 4 (01:16:32):
It is five to three and we're talking about AI
in schools. Some great texts coming through on nine two
ninety two.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
Yeah, we're going to keep this topic going after the news.
Clive says teachers should mark papers. It gives them the
insight into the students' minds and give them more of
an indication that what needs to work on. Clive, Yeah,
you would hope. And I think now with the trials
on AI marking in New Zealand anyway, there is a

(01:16:58):
human involved as well, so it's not just feeding it out,
so there's looking at it. But yeah, you would. And
I'm not sure at what level if this is exams
or just today marking, but you would think in day
to day marking there would be advantages for the teacher
to read what people are writing because it will give
them more information than just whether they got the answer

(01:17:20):
right or wrong. Yeah, but then again, god AI could
be trained to do that, just give you five bullet
points wrong. It could diagnose the kid with ADHD to
tell you just by reading a paragraph they're not eating
their lunch. There can be a whole lot of stuff
about that. Yeah, find out that their parents are criminal exactly.

(01:17:40):
This is a good text as well, afternoon boys. When
we were at school, it was using calculators that the
teachers tried to stop. Now they were giving embrace AI
adapt the curriculum, which is a very fair point. When
I was at school, Google was the big nasty come
along is that you can't use Google. That's gad well.
When my mum was little, her dad used to tell
her off for reading too many books. Get outside and
stop reading so much.

Speaker 4 (01:18:01):
Oh, eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
We're going to carry this on after News, Sport and Weather,
which is on its way. Great to have your company
as always. You're listening to matt and Tyler. Good afternoon
to you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Yeah, your new home are insightful and entertaining talk. It's

(01:18:36):
Mattie and Taylor Adams Afternoons on News Talk Sabby.

Speaker 4 (01:18:41):
Good afternoon to you. Welcome back into the show. Seeven
past three, and we're talking about AI in schools.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Yeah, before we get back to that, a couple of
things I need to address. Before I was talking to
my dog Colin down the radio because I'd left the
radio on at home and I told him to get
the cats, Get the cats, get the cats.

Speaker 14 (01:18:56):
Love.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
And there's been a number of texts saying, what kind
of sick monster sets his dog on cats? Those people
that are texting that through have not seen my dog Colin.
Colin will never catch a cat, and if he does
catch a cat, the cat will win the fight. But
Colin will run around in a circle and get excited
when you say, where the cat's Colin?

Speaker 4 (01:19:17):
And that's a beautiful thing to say.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
Yeah. Absolutely, And a lot of people have also been
hassling me about who calls the dog Colin. In my defense,
my kid's called dog Colin Colin, and he's named after
a character from the Blackadded TV series, not the ripoff
Colin from Accounts, which is a rip. They've ripped that
off at Dog's.

Speaker 4 (01:19:37):
Naw, that's a past then if it's Blackadder.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Yeah, And second thing I wanted to make it and
this started three o'clock hour. We talked about this on
the show a couple of weeks ago. How I heard
on my costing Breakfast he said that he complains if
someone sends him a freebe he complains he hates it,
and you he'll run that run whatever it is down.
We don't hold that policy on Matt and Tyler afternoons.

Speaker 4 (01:19:59):
No, the opposite.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Yeah, if you send us something and it's good, we'll
discuss it. Absolutely, we will absolutely And let's not talk
about fringe benefit tax right now. But send this beautiful
book today, New Zealand's Gourmet Pies by Derek Morrison, A
mouth ordering journey into the heart of New Zealand pie culture.
Which is this beautiful, hard covered I guess you'd call

(01:20:21):
it a coffee table book, going around all the best
pie makers in the country, pictures of their pies, beautiful
shots meeting the piemakers and the families and their businesses.
It's a very, very, very beautiful book. It is so
New Zealand's Gourmet Pies by Derek Morrison a mouthwatering journey
into the heart of New Zealand pie culture. Good beautiful book.

Speaker 4 (01:20:41):
Yep, good on you, Derek. And you can take a
lesson from what Derek has done. Send us some stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
We like it. Well, what I liked about what Derek did?
Does he send it just to me and nothing to you?

Speaker 9 (01:20:51):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:20:51):
Yeah, Actually, of Derek.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
Yeah, I think that's the way we should go forward. Also,
a beautiful New Zealand Gormost pie towel with a road
trip towel with all the different bakeries in the country.

Speaker 4 (01:21:02):
Is that from Derek as well? Yeah, it's pretty everyone
Patrick's Pies and Blenheim's.

Speaker 20 (01:21:08):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
Well that's a great the baker and tudo fantastic. All right,
all right, regard us to get back to AI.

Speaker 4 (01:21:14):
All right, Yes, we're chatting about AI in schools and
there's some great teachs coming through on nine two nine two,
But we want to hear from you on O eight
one hundred and eighty ten eighty.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
Yeah, as your kid using AI at school, how do
you feel about it? How do you feel about teachers
using AI to mark your kid's work, because that's happening
with the help of a human is involved at this point,
but it may not be forever. And if you're a teacher,
we'd love to hear from you and your thoughts on
how much AI should be used in school because right now,

(01:21:46):
the parameters, what do you call it? What's the word
that I'm looking forward? The oh, the percentage, no, no,
the guidance, the Ministry of Education is under pressure to
provide clearer guidance on artificial intelligence and school So a
lot of schools are saying that they don't have the
guidance to know how much they should use, and it's
currently up to school board Wood. Yeah, all right, this

(01:22:09):
sextasy is Google, do kiwis eat mangoes? Refresher and have
a look at the AI answers. This is why people
need to have their brains deleted. Okay, do kiwi fruit
eat mangoes? Do kiwis eat mangoes? I'll put in that no,
kiwi fruit. The bird does not eat manos. Kiwi fruit

(01:22:29):
primarily eat worms, insects, and berries, and they are omnivores,
meaning they eat both plants and animals. You see this
is confused AI because kiwis are us new Zealanders are Kiwi's. Yeah,
there's also the bird, the kiwi, and there's the kiwi fruit.
So between those three things, it's become very complicated For

(01:22:50):
Google's AI. I think it's called Gemini, which is, as
we all know, the worst of the AI.

Speaker 4 (01:22:55):
Yeah that is a terrible a good one.

Speaker 6 (01:22:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
Google has been cumulated on a number of occasions for
its responses, Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:23:00):
One hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call
this Texas is gate boys just on the AI AI
rather subject. At my kids school, the students have to
sign a contract that they are only allowed to use
AI for twenty five percent of their work. Their work
is checked by a teacher and if the work is
showing twenty five percent or more AI use, they are
given a warning or fail on that paper. It is

(01:23:21):
the language of AI that they check on, and this
is where it can get tricky. Sometimes the student's work
has AI language without the student knowing, and then it's
picked up as AI usage and then they have to
prove it isn't, which gets tricky. I mean just saying
you can use it for twenty five percent, and we're
going to run AI through your own AI work to
figure out how much percentage of AI you've used. This

(01:23:44):
is where it starts getting confusing. Well do they need
to I guess you.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
Know, and people have thought of this, so I'd love
to hear the kickback on it on one hundred and
eighty ten eighty. But should it then come down to presentations?
So you can use your AI for your research, you
can put your whatever together and your presentation whatever, and
then you stand up in front of the teacher and
you have to make the presentation, and then the teacher

(01:24:09):
can ask you questions in real time to see how
much you you you know, you understand it. I guess
the argument against that would be that people would that's
hard on people that are no good at you know,
communicating or talking to their teachers. But then again, you
should get marked down for not being good at that,
and you should work on getting better at it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
It's a good skill to learn in life. Oh eight,
one hundred and eighteen eighty is the number to call.
It is thirteen past three news talks there b, it
is a quarter past three. We're talking about AI in
school's good idea or a bad idea, both for students
and teachers. So something you wanted to clarify.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
Oh yeah, I'm complete. I'm very concerned because someone said
that I that I got a pie place and one
of my favorite pie places and one of my favorite
New Zealanders, Patrick Lamb. Did I say Patrick Pies and
Blenham It's Patrick Pies and Bethlehem and the Bad plenty.
If I got that wrong, I'm very very sorry.

Speaker 15 (01:25:01):
How dare you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
I was reading it off the New Zealand Gormet Pie's
road Trip Towel.

Speaker 4 (01:25:05):
Did Derek get it right?

Speaker 6 (01:25:06):
Though?

Speaker 4 (01:25:06):
Derek got it right?

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Who's Derek?

Speaker 4 (01:25:08):
There's the guy that made the tetail, the Errol Morrison, the.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
Author of the book and the author of the towel. Yeap,
he got it right.

Speaker 4 (01:25:14):
Okay, we'll give him a pass on that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Then he definitely got a right. A bunch of street butcher.
They do some good bakeries and the good pis and Dunedin.
But anyway, listen, I.

Speaker 4 (01:25:22):
Do love a good themed tea tawel. Just incidentally, what
do you used to make them? At school?

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):
What are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to
use a flesh t tail like this to dry your dishes?
It's a talking point though, you know when that's what
I'm asking you, Like, do you hang it on the
wall or do you use it?

Speaker 4 (01:25:36):
Ideally you take it to the beach. But if you
don't have a beach, what.

Speaker 6 (01:25:38):
Do you do with it?

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Well, it's for a road trip, so you put it
in the car.

Speaker 4 (01:25:41):
Yeah, I suppose you get it framed And I don't
know should we ask Ai what to do? With this
t tail.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
Would you this, I'll tell it would be really amazing.
Someone should do this, because there's thirty eight fantastic pie
shops here from honey Bees way up at the top
of North right down to Fat Bastard Pison A Vicago.
There's thirty eight of them.

Speaker 4 (01:25:59):
Yeah, take that on the road.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Do a road trip where you have a pie at
every single one of these pie shops.

Speaker 4 (01:26:06):
That would be ultimate.

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
Wonder how long that would take to get around to
every one of those pies and then they weigh yourself
at the start and at the end, who ate all
the pies?

Speaker 15 (01:26:14):
Me?

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
I did a road trip right around the country and
ate one of all the pies.

Speaker 4 (01:26:17):
Maybe we can do it. We'll take the show on
the road and just to the pie roady, Mike, Sorry
to keep you waiting.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
That's all right, mate, that's the kind of sort of
detour and conversation A I probably wouldn't go on.

Speaker 4 (01:26:33):
Maybe no part of that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):
And Tyler needs to be replaced by AI if we're
going to go like that anyway, Mike, your thoughts.

Speaker 15 (01:26:39):
Well, there was less about the students using AI. It
was about appearance using AI. We just got my boys'
school report email the other day and we couldn't even
decipher the thing. It was all graphs and little color
code symbols and all sorts of stuff, and sped out
it was actually doing well.

Speaker 2 (01:26:58):
I know exactly what you're talking about, trying to ascertain
whether your kid is doing well at school by those reports.
And it has the key and you can read through it.
But there must be a simpler way to give us
the information.

Speaker 15 (01:27:12):
Yeah, I'll put it in chat GBT. It literally analyzes
it all and gives you a little summary.

Speaker 4 (01:27:16):
At the end.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
And it did.

Speaker 15 (01:27:18):
He said he's doing he's doing very well with mess
Amanic English and need a bit of work in mess So.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
Do make any comment on your ability to comprehend graphs?

Speaker 11 (01:27:30):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:27:30):
No, So when you said you put it into chet GBT,
did you put the graphs in there and.

Speaker 15 (01:27:39):
Into the are and it came back instantly with the
New Zealand practices.

Speaker 6 (01:27:45):
And knew all about it?

Speaker 4 (01:27:46):
And did you believe it summary? Did you believe it atually?

Speaker 6 (01:27:52):
Teacher tonight?

Speaker 15 (01:27:53):
So we'll find out how.

Speaker 2 (01:27:56):
Well as an answer that you want to believe that
your kid's doing well, so you know you might as
well belive that one.

Speaker 15 (01:28:01):
Yeah, By the way, I think Colin's a fantastic dogs name.
My dog's name is Bruce.

Speaker 4 (01:28:06):
That's good.

Speaker 12 (01:28:07):
Dogs were How's it, Mike?

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
When you're out and Bruce's run off on a dog
pack or something and yelling Bruce. It's kind of a weird,
isn't it? When I find myself yelling Colin past people,
it seems weird. All right, thanks to you, call Mike.
So that's smart, isn't it. That's smart? Because I've seen
those report cards and they're incredibly complex. It looks like

(01:28:30):
it's some kind of track to try and stop you
working out with your kids, are doing well at school
or not?

Speaker 4 (01:28:34):
Put it through a through che GPT and I'll tell
you the tell you the truth, guys. My wife uses
AI to check check my work at home. My highest
score is four and a half. I don't believe.

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
I ain't that out your worst, Tyler. My wife uses
AI to check my work in the bedroom.

Speaker 4 (01:28:52):
As I said in the home, I hear what I
was talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):
But Tyler, there's a big difference between work in the
home and work in the bedroom. Okay, my highest score
is four and a half. I don't believe. I knows
what it's talking about how does she how is she
using AI? Are you filming what you're doing and then
plugging that into AI?

Speaker 6 (01:29:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (01:29:10):
Must be.

Speaker 4 (01:29:11):
If you can give us some more information on nine
two nine two.

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
Send us the videos. Ye, well, well we'll decide for you.

Speaker 4 (01:29:16):
Oh one hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to
call AI in the school? How do you feel about it?

Speaker 3 (01:29:22):
And late?

Speaker 2 (01:29:23):
Look, Judy's dog's name's Roger.

Speaker 4 (01:29:24):
Roger's a great name for good boy. Roger good boy, Roger.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Good boy, Roger good boy, Bruce good boy, Colin good Dogs,
Matt Heathan Tyler Adams. Afternoons call oh, eight hundred eighty
eighty on news Talk ZB.

Speaker 4 (01:29:42):
Very good afternoon to you. It is twenty two past three.
Just having a giggle at some great texts coming through. Yeah,
but we want to focus on AI. Of confused things.
We've derailed it with my long non logical.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
Mind of confused things with dog names and pie road trips.
But we're talking about a I and Grant welcome the show.
Your thoughts on on AI and schools and in general.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
Yep, I think we really need to go back to
the history or the foundations of our current education system.
And that really is I believe around the Industrial Revolution,
and they basically set up schools so that they could
train people up to work in factories and do whatever's

(01:30:28):
needed for keeping the economy going. And so we've now
got AI coming through, and I believe we need to
completely embrace it and teach kids how to do it
and let them do it. Because I actually sell computers

(01:30:49):
and fixed computers, and there's lots of customers that I
talk to. I can put them into two groups. One
group is, oh, I'm too scared of all this computer stuff,
and they never learned, they never improve. And then there's
others just say, oh, I'll just give it a go,
and they just go for it. And you know, why

(01:31:10):
hold people back from what's just around the corner. In fact,
it's not around the corner, it's right here right now.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
And how do you see that future? So you say schools,
you know, were brought in and you know the eight
our work day of course, and schools were brought in
to set people up to be members of society and
work in the in the areas that society needed. Do
you see.

Speaker 9 (01:31:34):
That?

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
I mean, what future do you see in terms of
the work for kids that are coming out of schools
that have been trained in AI, because there's a lot
of fears that there just simply won't be the jobs
for them that, you know, jobs like an accounting and
in danger, jobs like a lawyer, you know, like legal
professionals in danger. What careers do you think are going
to remain.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
Well, I was listening to a young young kid that
was on a Millionaire Kids thing and the guy said
to him, so, you know, what job do you want
to have when you leave universe? And he said, the
job I'll have probably doesn't even exist yet. And that's
that's where it's all going. And unless we have you know,

(01:32:20):
kids with the already the resources, they're not going to
do it. For instance, you mentioned accountants, Well, the government
is already setting it up that you can use accounting
software like Henry or zero and you don't need an accountant.
The government of just they look in the back end

(01:32:40):
of it. They use AI already and they go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
they've done it all right, ye'p, fine, move along, nothing
to be seen here.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
So that has the same weight for them as say
a chartered accountant.

Speaker 3 (01:32:53):
Oh yeah, more so, way more so, because in fact
they've done studies and found that AI's ability to diagnose.
Because my wife's a doctor, so I sort of look
at it. This this stuff AI's ability to diagnos is
far more accurate as than a doctor. Now, you've got

(01:33:14):
to give it the right information, et cetera. You know,
you just got to go for it. And I'll give
you an example. I had a guy who used to
do all his accounting in an exercise book, and he
would take a weekend a month or be two months
to do his GST and so his business was really

(01:33:36):
cramped by the fact that he didn't want to have
any more customers. I put him onto an accounting software
and his business just took off. And I would say
he now turns over probably a million dollars a month. Wow,
because that that cap was taken off his business.

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
Yeah, and that's that that's AI. When it's when it's
working in the best way it should is when it
takes away the repetitive tasks that that that you are
taking up all your time and energy, so you can
then use your creativity or use your time to further

(01:34:12):
your business and whatever way possible. That's when it's fantastic.
Because I run three little companies and you know, I
have an accountant that runs all of them with me,
but so much of it now is done through through
zero that that my accounting bills are lower. But also
that's because I'm not getting someone to spend or I'm

(01:34:34):
not spending just the amount of time I used to
spend just going through receipts and just doing that. That
that sort of that sort of grind that that anything
can do. So in the perfect world, that's what ALI
takes us off us and then we then you have
the accountant at the top that's cooking the box for
you and getting creative, but.

Speaker 3 (01:34:54):
Like psychologically it takes the capo as well, you know,
and you say, you know, like for instance, there's I
went on to a Saturday where this guy was talking
about everything you can do with AI and he showed
us that in twenty I think it was twenty minutes,
it took AI to completely produce a whole website with

(01:35:17):
everything you wanted on it, and all he gave it
was some basic information and our website was done.

Speaker 4 (01:35:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:35:24):
Well, people would say, oh, I don't know I could
have a business, because you know, there's all these things
you got to do. You just punch it into AI
and it produces everything and you can then get on
with what you.

Speaker 4 (01:35:35):
Want to do exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
The only problem is there the person that had the
job that was making the websites now longer no longer
has a job.

Speaker 4 (01:35:42):
But to Grant's point, and I think he is correct
that humans will find jobs to do once AI starts
automating and taking over these other jobs. They've got no
doubt about it. I mean you just go back through
history or just when they came out with the car
and all the people on the horse and cart genuinely said,
this is ludicrous. What are all the horses going to do?
We've got all these horses, they're not going to have

(01:36:03):
a job.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
Well if we if humans go like the horses, do
you know what happened? All those horses fed to other
animals became glue. And how many horses do you see
out on the street right now? Tyler? Yeah, I don't
know if that's the great example you think.

Speaker 4 (01:36:15):
I love a good horse. But just on the farmers,
there were eighty percent of the jobs were farmers back
in eighteen ninety in the US. Now it's two percent.
So we find things to do. I think this whole
freak out about AI. We're gonna be all right.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
Well, I've got a theory on that and I'll put
it to you. And also this textures has made a
really good point to High team. Why don't you ask
AI if it's good in schools or not? So we'll
do that. Well, I'll ask AI if it's good. It's
going to get our answer to this question from AI.

Speaker 4 (01:36:44):
Headlines coming up.

Speaker 2 (01:36:47):
US talks.

Speaker 14 (01:36:48):
It'd be headlines with Blue bubble taxis. It's no trouble
with the blue bubble. The Public Service Associations ask the
Auditor General to check proposals to cut twenty three Health
New Zealand fraud and audit roles. The Health Agency says
it's cutting duplication created when DHBs became Health News. The

(01:37:09):
Funeral Directors' Association says a recent case of a body
being mishandled highlights the need for tighter legal control. Since
nineteen thirty seven, residents living in South Duned and Surrey Street,
which is regularly flooded with sewage, are demanding urgent counsel action.
Police are looking into three teens being assaulted in Auckland's

(01:37:31):
Brown's Bay on Saturday night. By a group who chased
and robbed them. The Readerstar General decline sixty one names
for new babies in twenty twenty four, including King, Prince,
Princess and Fanny. Organized crime syndicates are making millions from
smuggling tobacco into New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
See the full story at Enzit Herald Premium.

Speaker 14 (01:37:53):
Now back to Matt Eath and Tyler Adams.

Speaker 4 (01:37:55):
Thank you very much, Rayllan, and we're talking about AI
technology in schools, both used by the students and the teachers.
Love to your thoughts on oh eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty, Johnny, what's your thoughts?

Speaker 19 (01:38:07):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (01:38:08):
Yeah, I used the AI quite a lot, and just
a few days ago, after interacting with it for six months,
I said, can you give me an appraisal of some
of my strengths and weaknesses and areas need to work on?
And I gave it some parameters and what I got

(01:38:31):
was quite sort of a narcissistic, vain response, And I thought,
is this what it's learned off me? After six months?
And I said, you know, stop stop calling my just
you know, I want the straight up stuff because I've
got some serious things I'm involved. And then it managed

(01:38:53):
to me, and I'm interested in the best possible outcome
from my children. So I read a lot of books too,
and I've got to the library. I'm a student and
I use AI at school and doing a PA referencing
and things like that. I had to ask AI if
it could teach me how to cite and reference properly,

(01:39:13):
so out of practice, and I've changed from being an audio,
audio and visual learner into a kind aesthetic learner through
a brain injury. So anyway, the response I got back
was still some like you know, analogies and sweet nothings
and wasn't mean and I didn't didn't really address And
I've talked to about a lot of stuff. So in

(01:39:34):
terms of being useful and schools, it's helpful for me.
And when I put at the bottom of anything I
submit and work is that I've been assisted by AI.

Speaker 4 (01:39:49):
Oh I think a I just took you out, Johnnyeah,
that's that's a pretty.

Speaker 13 (01:39:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:39:58):
So bias and inequality, you know, bias inequality. AI systems
they can reflect biases and the data that you're teaching them,
so unfair outcomes and you know, reduced you were an interaction.
I would say the probably the biggest thing. A over
reliance could limit opportunities for kids to.

Speaker 2 (01:40:22):
You haven't put this question into a a have you.
It sounds like you might be This is just from
your brain. You're not an a A Johnny.

Speaker 4 (01:40:32):
We know, Johnny.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
I've got a question for you. Johnny, I've got a
question for you. I've got a question for you, Johnny.
When when you asked the you know, was it chat
GP that you were using?

Speaker 6 (01:40:45):
Yeah, yeah, I used chet GPT yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:48):
Yeah. So so when you asked it to rate rate
yourself rate you had you just been running the same
the same chat. So it was looking back at every
everything that you've used in there, because you know, when
you're start a new chat, then it stops referencing what's
been previous in there. So so what what what was
the inputting?

Speaker 6 (01:41:08):
I I asked it to go through all of our chats,
all of the questions. Yes, and I've got the plus
so I've got a large memory in so we've got
from i know, October last year.

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
Yeah. Right, Well, then maybe it was right, Johnny. Maybe
you are maybe maybe it wasn't greasing you up. Maybe
maybe you are all that I was just doing what Yeah,
I've got to do. I totally agree with what Johnny's
saying there around citations. When I was writing my book,
so the news AI for my entire book, but when
it came to because I've written out all the references

(01:41:40):
as I've been going, and they are an absolute mess.
So I just put them in and said, put these
in the Cambridge. You know, citation format and things like
that are fantastic.

Speaker 4 (01:41:50):
And that's what they you know, arguably the students should
be using that AO for at schools as those those
kind of arduous tasks that.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
You don't really learn anything from. Yeah, they just time wasters, really, Yeah,
but they need to be done. I'm a chartered accountant,
says Joeanne. Zero was great but doesn't ever replace accountants.
The business owner doesn't have the knowledge to ensure coding
is appropriate and treated correctly for text purposes. I agree
with that. I am, so I use zero to code everything,
but then my account it rings up and says that's

(01:42:19):
not right. What are you doing here? This is rubbish?
And also there's nothing like that feeling for your business
and for yourself when you get the little black book
from your charted accountment that says that they've gone through,
They've sorted everything out and you're completely legal for the
year and everything everything's done. You know, all your tax
is paid and everything has been sorted. So the league

(01:42:43):
work involved in that absolutely, and more can be done
and people can do things more efficiently and quickly. But
in the end, having that human being that you know
certifies that what has been done is correct.

Speaker 4 (01:42:57):
ID is not going to come after you.

Speaker 2 (01:42:59):
It's huge, hugely important.

Speaker 4 (01:43:00):
Yeah, the stick so yaday, guys, I just said my
first doctor's appointment with AI doing the notes, would be
fascinated to read them. I'm sixty seven. When I went
through school, I was being taught without knowing what jobs
we're going to be available in twenty thirty forty years.
That doesn't change through the generation. It is not a
new concept. One of my daughter's teachers used that excuse

(01:43:22):
as an excuse rather twenty five years ago from Sam.

Speaker 2 (01:43:24):
Yeah, that's absolutely true that we've got We've never had
any idea and we would be very surprised twenty five
years ago to see how we're making our livings now,
you know, the you know we've there was this great
story that you can see from New Zealand Television from
the seventies, and it was talking about how much free

(01:43:45):
time we were going to have by about the year
twenty ten, because robots will be doing everything for us.
And then you jump to twenty ten, and the whole
purpose of the article was saying, what are we going
to do with that time? And there was all this
leisure time we're going to have, And it turns out
we work more hours now than we've ever had. Yeah, exactly,
I'm free surprised how the future turns out.

Speaker 4 (01:44:05):
Oh, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number
to call love to hear your thoughts about AI use
in schools, both by students and teachers. It is twenty
one to four the.

Speaker 1 (01:44:14):
Issues that affect you, and a bit of fun along
the way. Matt Heath and Taylor Adams afternoons used talks.

Speaker 11 (01:44:20):
He'd be.

Speaker 4 (01:44:22):
News talks, he'd be it is eighteen to form. We're
talking about the use of AI in schools.

Speaker 2 (01:44:28):
This text here says Matt, what's wrong with you today?
You are struggling to string two words coherently together. I
was thinking the same thing. Text, But this is how
you know this isn't an AI broadcast.

Speaker 4 (01:44:37):
Yeah, this is our point of difference.

Speaker 2 (01:44:39):
The fact that I struggle to string two words together
just prosate AI would never make that kind of mistake.
To quote Jessic parks Is Graham, life will find a way.
When we were younger, the Internet came along and people
were having the same conversation as you are having now
around AI. Life will go on. My theory on it
that I was going to stay before was trying to

(01:45:00):
string some words together, as I think humans find other
humans in interaction with other humans very very crucial.

Speaker 4 (01:45:07):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:45:08):
We love being around other humans, and I think that
is always going to be a strong thing. It's the
same reason why you could get in a print of
the Mona Lisa, but it means nothing even if it
was exactly recreated exactly the same as the Mona Lisa.
The fact that Leonardo da Vinci hasn't touched it means
and it hasn't been made by a human makes it worthless, right,

(01:45:28):
So what humans do has worth. So I think in
the future, things like the competency of being able to
play a piano, AI might be able to create music.
But if you go and see someone actually play the
piano competently, there's an emotional aspect to it, and that
will be important. And I think that's going to be
true over everything. So I think quite the reverse of
humans becoming less important, humans will become more important. Human

(01:45:52):
craft and human creativity and things that can authentically be
proven to be human will be of more and more value.
As AI pumps out more and more rubbish, it will
always have less value than humans because humans attach an
emotional weight to things that other human beings have done
and always.

Speaker 4 (01:46:09):
Well, yeah, I hope that's true, because it sounds like
a beautiful future. I've got to say, Reese, what's your
view on this?

Speaker 20 (01:46:16):
Yeah, hey, yeah, it's quite interested in school's I think
it's just another pool.

Speaker 19 (01:46:22):
Really.

Speaker 20 (01:46:22):
I remember when I was back in school, we were
just getting out the computers and we just had the
green screen and it was very basic, you know, and
you do basic stuff on the computer and you look
at it now and in my job in safety, so
I is safety for a living and I use it
quite a bit now, but mainly just to fact check,

(01:46:44):
reference check legislation risks, and you know, put off all
pods of information. So I think, you know, used in
the right context. I think the skep the risk is
I think sometimes is.

Speaker 5 (01:46:57):
People rely on it.

Speaker 20 (01:46:58):
You get all the information they need, right if you
if you don't already know the information, or you don't
fact check or double chip the information, I think that's
where the risk comes back.

Speaker 4 (01:47:08):
Yeah, and we're when you know, I'm just talking about
chet GPT here. I even utilize some of the other AI,
but certainly sometimes when I've put asked chet GPT questions,
it's giving me answers that I need to go and
double check because I've had a look at the answer
and say that doesn't sound quite right.

Speaker 2 (01:47:24):
Well, everyone's seen this on the Google search. It's throwing
up that AI. It's the term they use is hallucinations
and its errors from the training data and this this
will happen. So it's not a search engine. So people,
what you're saying, Reese, is you use it to check
what you put in. So what you put in it
can have an bring an answer back. But anyone can

(01:47:46):
look up anything as I did before on KIWI what
what the kiwis? Yeah, it's going to have a hallucination
because it's just what goes in garbage and garbage out.
So if it's if if you set the para parameters
of what it's looking at. Then it can give you
an answer. It can check code, it can check things
towards a statute exactly what you're saying, Reese. But the
whole actuality of human thought it struggles with because it

(01:48:10):
can't get sarcasm, can't get humor, and it can't get it.
There's a whole lot of different nuances in the way
humans interact that will never be able to get. So
it's not a search engine, but it is a tool,
as you say race, Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 20 (01:48:23):
Yeah, And you know, I like to say it's all
about how you use it, right, If you use him
properly and use it well, then it could be a
real good aid. And again, and the thing is, I
suppose if you use it incorrectly, it could probably indient
it make a job longer.

Speaker 5 (01:48:42):
Try and use it and it's really effective.

Speaker 2 (01:48:45):
Yeah, yeah, well if it goes off down the wrong
path for long enough.

Speaker 4 (01:48:48):
You know exactly, Greg, Hi, har An, you guys, Yeah,
very good, good to chat. What do you think about
AI and schools?

Speaker 13 (01:48:57):
Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think the first thing
is a misnoma.

Speaker 17 (01:49:00):
I was just take good.

Speaker 13 (01:49:01):
It's intelligence. It's not intelligent. These are just algorithms that
are working. They don't have and they don't have moral standards,
they don't have ethics. It's just a very fast way
to process a lot of information. And that's why in
video is worth so much money because they're producing chips
that can actually just process fast amounts of information seriously quickly.

(01:49:25):
So as far as intelligent scope, no, it's not intelligent
in anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:49:30):
Great to describe it just basically tell me if I'm
getting this right here, If you've got a word AI
has learned statistically by going through everything an AI model
a large language, moral what statistically is most likely to
be the next word, and then on an algorithm on
decreasing scale.

Speaker 13 (01:49:48):
That's exactly right. It's just it's just really fast at
it to look at it, if you look at it's
use in schools, right, So when when I went to school,
you know, if you want to recess something, you go
to a liver, you go through you know, textbooks, encyclopedias,
and you collate the information. All this is doing is
collating information super fast. So you know, I think should

(01:50:08):
be used in schools because what it's doing is speeding
up education because of all the time that we're used
to inverticonas waste collating or looking for information, but then
it's around the interpretation of that information into facts. So
you know, there's a couple of simple ways that you
can actually get to deal with it. As one, you

(01:50:29):
move to oral exams or be you go to written
reports rather than types, so that the person actually has
to write it out, you know, write out the answer.
Sure they could copy it, but at the end of
the day, what we're really looking at here is a
tool that allows you to collate vast amounts of information
really quickly, which should actually enhance education rather than stifle.

Speaker 2 (01:50:54):
Yeah, I guess the problem comes in for people that
are in jobs that are wrote jobs and are repetitive jobs,
the sort of monkey work jobs. Those jobs are likely
to disappear, aren't they. Green.

Speaker 13 (01:51:06):
Yeah, that's true. But you know, you guys are talking
talking about earlier, you know, around education in the seventies,
when we're going we're going to have all these leisures,
the legends. It's just a rare and I remember it
pretty well, but it's just a it's a re alignment
of the workforce, which doesn't happen instantly. It happens over time,
So so I I think, you know, as everyone's talked

(01:51:27):
about as education needs to move forward, embrace the tool,
and because because as they embrace the tool going forward,
the other opportunities and the other job types become more obvious.
I mean, you know, AI is not going to wire
your house, and it's not going to do your plumbing,
and you know, so you know there are always going

(01:51:49):
to be jobs out there, it's just they're going to
look they're going to look different.

Speaker 4 (01:51:52):
Is it just the more efficient Google is what you're
saying Greek, and we all freak down when Google first hit.
You know, it's not a search.

Speaker 2 (01:51:59):
Engine at all. That's that's the misunderstanding. Originally early on
people thought that that's what was going on with chet GPT,
that it was a search engine. It's exactly not that.

Speaker 13 (01:52:10):
No, it's exactly right, because the search engines will find
where pages which will give you information, whereas these things
are collating the concepts and the words, so you know,
there's no intelligence involved here. They are just super fast.

Speaker 2 (01:52:28):
Do you believe do you believe? You know, as a
lot of people are saying now that that artificial general
intelligence can grow out of a large language model, the
singularity as they call it. Do you do you see
that as a possibility.

Speaker 13 (01:52:42):
I think the ability to collate information will will that
will just get fast and faster. But you've got to remember,
the thing that links intelligence and human beings together is morals,
is interpretation, it's understanding or empathy. It's all of the
more I hate to say this, but the touchy fairly

(01:53:03):
things that actually determines humanity and how we deal with
each other.

Speaker 2 (01:53:10):
They talk about this though in terms of the you know,
the what is it the Turkish chess machine, which is
actually just a human And one of the interesting things
that happened with AI because they, as you say, greg
the morality. They try and enforce that morality on top
of their AI model, and that's when things get confusing,
because AI, then, as you say, doesn't have an intelligence,

(01:53:33):
so that can skew it off in crazy directions.

Speaker 13 (01:53:36):
Well, and the other thing to realize as well is that,
you know, there's the potential for AI to look for
the simplest route, you know, from A to B in
your life, but sometimes the hardest route or the harder
route is the better route because of the things that
you learn on the journey, and.

Speaker 4 (01:53:56):
That was pushing Greg. Is I generally think AI as
it stands now, you still need that critical thinking to
be able to challenge what it presents you to say,
is that accurate? Is that really the best way forward
for what I've asked of this particular AI.

Speaker 13 (01:54:11):
That's exactly right. I mean, not only there, but some
you know, we all make inverder Koon's bad decisions, you know,
through our lives. But I know all of us log
back through our lives and generally go that was a
really bad decision. But look what I learned. Look what
I learned as a result of that.

Speaker 2 (01:54:30):
Yeah, yeah, well you know, I learned a lot shovel
and gravel at Donaldson's nursery, you know, and anything could
have done that, but I learned a lot doing it,
that's for sure about myself. Hey, thank you so much
for you called Greg. That's really insightful. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (01:54:44):
Cheers, cheers Greg. It is seven to four, back three
shortly the.

Speaker 1 (01:54:49):
Big stories, the big issues to the big trends and
everything in between. Matt Heath and Taylor Adams afternoons used
Dog Zedb on News Dog Zedb.

Speaker 4 (01:55:00):
Is four to four.

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):
I could talk about AI forever, but unfortunately we have
run out of time. The Matt and Tyler Afternoons podcast
will be out in about half an hour, So if
you have missed any of our excellent chats, chune at
that we chatted about longer prison sentences, including a confronting
chat with a man who has committed murder that was
full on. Also, as you may have just heard, we

(01:55:22):
chatted about AI being used to mark kids papers in school.
So you could listen to the podcast, or you could
just put the following prompt into groc or chat GBT.
Should I be used in schools and if so, how
much and in what ways? Imitate callers and add some
punishing radio host banter.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
Put that in there will let you figure out the answer.
That one with AI teach you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:55:43):
Great show today is the Great and Powerful Heather Duplicy
Allan is up after the News until tomorrow. AVO. Wherever
you are, whatever you're doing for the rest of your day,
give them a taste of key.

Speaker 4 (01:55:54):
We see you then, Middle.

Speaker 1 (01:56:06):
Little For more from newstalkst B, listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you go.
With our podcasts on iHeartRadio,

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