May 7, 2025 • 11 mins
Voting is currently underway at the Vatican, in a secret ballot to elect a new Pope.
Black smoke emanated from the chimney atop the Sistine Chapel earlier today - indicating no new Pope has been elected yet.
Massey University's Peter Lineham explained the process to the Afternoons team.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
The Secret Conclave is underway to elect a new pope.
Professor Peter Liinam has written and lectured extensively on religious history.
Here is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to
the process behind the conclave and the election of a
new pope, and he joins us now, Professor Lynon, good afternoon,
Good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
So we go right back to the very basics. Who
can be pope? Who is actually eligible for the job?
Speaker 4 (00:41):
So the popes are drawn from the cardinals of the church,
and the cardinals the office was created as a specific
way to create a kind of an elite cabinet for
the church. And originally there weren't very many of them.
Now of course we've got one hundred and thirty five,
but it was originally actually local Italian cardinals who fulfill
(01:07):
these roles.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
And so it can only be from one of them.
It can't be I don't know, just someone that's been
baptized in New Zealand. It has to be a part
of that group of cardinals.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Yes, that is a restriction, mind you. Ironically the cardinals
don't have to be ordained. They actually technically could include
a lay person, maybe even a woman, though there's absolutely
no signs of that happening.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Well is it true? Though, just just to jump ahead
that there is the Pope Jones story true that a
woman snuck in there eighty eight five five, and now
they check to make sure it's a man.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Great thought, but all despite the conclude movie, et cetera. No,
I think that's the bit.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Okay, So what is the basic process of selecting the
new pope from these cardinals?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
So this is a really historical thing. It's evolved in
the process because there were times it didn't always select
the popes this way, and in fact it's only been
in the nineteenth century that it got tightened down to
this kind of secret process. And apparently in twenty thirteen
somebody did manage to disguise themselves as a cardinal and
(02:22):
sneak into the election, but it got kicked out by
the Swiss guards. It's not quite out of it down. Effectively,
the cardinals are locked up in the Systeine Chapel and
they have a small piece of paper on which they
can write the name of one of their number that
(02:42):
they think should be pope, and then there will be
discussion and they pause the meals. Meanwhile there's a total
blackout because they do not want cardinals talking on their
cell phones to the media or to you or me.
And they keep doing that four times a day until
(03:02):
they have a pope.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Wow, And I guess this is a pretty broad question,
but what are they looking.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
For so effectively, they're looking at someone who can manage
the global church and who can run the Vatican efficiently.
I mean it is technically the pope is a monarch
as kind of king of the church, and it was
designed in the days when they had monarchs, and hence
(03:29):
all the grandeur of the ceremony involved in it. But
if you can't effectively keep the wheels of the Vatican turning,
keep raising money to pay for the central apparatus of
the church, then the whole thing will collapse. And that's
effectively why Benedict resigned in twenty twelve, because he just
(03:53):
proved incapable, maybe incompetent, at running the Vatican Bank, and
then all the sexual abuse scandals, he just couldn't handle
it anymore. So you've got to be able to do that.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
So that was the first time in say one hundred
years that a pope had stepped down, am I right?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yes, that's right, there's been a few presidents. Francis also
is the first pope for six hundred years to choose
a new name, because normally they're drawn from a small
cluster of names of previous popes, right, And this will
be so interesting to watch what, but whatever the new
pope chooses, because that's the major clue we'll get of
(04:35):
what his focus is.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So, Pope Francis, has he appointed many of the cardinals
that will select his successor. And by looking at at
some of these cardinals, it is a very diverse group,
isn't it. There are some countries there that have cardinals
for the first time sale su Dan Papa, New Guinea.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
And Tonga and Tong. I don't forget tong.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Right, a tongue pope would be good.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
So yeah, this is a really interesting question because yes,
he selected almost well well, O behalf. I think two
thirds of the cardinals are new. They don't know each
other particularly well. And so looking at the people he selected,
because two things might have been born in mind, he
(05:21):
presumably wanted the things that he cared about to be
reflected in the cardinals, but he also had a big
thing about representation of the worldwide church. After all, he
was from South America. So the only thing to bear
in mind is you can't assume that they all think
like Francis, because we already know that the cardinals from
(05:41):
Africa were really unhappy when he proposed a process of
informal blessings of same sex marriage of same sex relationships.
They said, we're not going to do this in Africa.
And these were the cardinals he had selected.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
How important is the pope in twenty twenty five, Where
does it sitt in terms of world leaders as a position.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Well, the pope of the last fifty years had turned
into global figures, and that's a really striking aspect of
the ways in which the papacy works. They really are
spectacularly public in traveling all around the world, and because
of that, I think we can assume these are really
(06:26):
important figures, although they've got no formal power. Remember one
point four billion Catholics, that's a huge proportion the largest
religious group in the world.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, that's incredible, But I mean, in different times they
have had different influence. I'm just actually listening to a
historical broadcast at the moment on ten sixty Sex, and
a lot of it's about Pope Alexander I and sanctioning
William the Conqueror's invasion of England. I oven think he
provided a papal banner for William the Conqueror to attack Unders.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Yes, yes, so the pope in the days when Church
and Stay were handed in glove. Yes, indeed he authorized
the Norman conquest of England and made it very difficult
for Harold and that sort of thing you are unlikely
to see up today happily. But I don't think you
(07:24):
can completely discount the potential influence. For example, the popes
made some previous Pope made some very strong remarks about
Palestine Israel situation, and that's made American Catholics feel very uncomfortable.
And I was most intrigued that apparently one of the
(07:46):
right wing capitalist groups in the States has been taking
potential influential cardinals out for lunch in Rome over the
last week and a half to make sure that they
get somebody who's not to not too socialism, so.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Someone a bit more Benedict like going forward. Well, incredibly interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, so gut Field, Peter. I know it's very hard
to the tumor because it is a secret conclave, but
I believe I Understandtand it took two days to select
Pope Francis last time. What's your gut field this time?
Do you think it will be fast or maybe sometime?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I think it will all be done by Friday Friday night,
I think, I think. I mean, it may take one
more vote than it took with Francis, but people pretty
quickly get realistic. They hear the results of the votes, right.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So it's not a sacret ballot ballot, it's you hear.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Well, you don't know who all right.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right, but you see which way it's going.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yeah, but you see which way it's going. And so
quite clearly, conversation will have gone on overnight, and they'll
come back when they start again tonight, and they'll they'll
be an elimination of various the marginal candidates and they'll
throw their votes behind other people, and so there'll be
(09:05):
a lot of conversations gone overnight. I'd be surprised if
it goes beyond five ballots.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And do you is it a kind of thing where
you know front runners, you have names obviously when they
become the pope, they get a new name, but names
that are at the top of the top of contention.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
There's a lot of names being thrown around as being
top names. But as most key watchers say, this is
probably one of the most open elections that there have
been for ages because of all these new cardinals. And
there clearly will be people from the South who want
another person out of the kind of Italian European domination
(09:47):
of the past thousand years. But as a Hope can't
speak Italian, they'll be at a serious disadvantage, and so
that might put the pressure. And I'm sure the Italians
are angling to get another at least another European back.
So I find it very very difficult to read, let
(10:10):
alone the conservative versus liberal debate that's going on. I'm
sure very yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I'd like to see a Pope Pious. I'd like that
name to come back and to use.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
It's got a nice rink. Oh well, yes, but you
certainly want is politics the ninth his no not run
thing of the twelfth relationships with the with an NZI Germany.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I was I was Pious, the ninth, the longest pope
running Pope but yeah, okay, so not another pious Peter.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's been lovely chatting with you. Thank you very much
for your expertise and and time, and hopefully we'll catch
up maybe next week if there is an election of
our new pope.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Indeed, yes, very good, thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
That is Professor Peter Lynham. He is a religious expert
and scholar of religious history.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
For more from Newstalk set B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
The Secret Conclave is underway to elect a new pope.
Professor Peter Liinam has written and lectured extensively on religious history.
Here is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to
the process behind the conclave and the election of a
new pope, and he joins us now, Professor Lynon, good afternoon,
Good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
So we go right back to the very basics. Who
can be pope? Who is actually eligible for the job?
Speaker 4 (00:41):
So the popes are drawn from the cardinals of the church,
and the cardinals the office was created as a specific
way to create a kind of an elite cabinet for
the church. And originally there weren't very many of them.
Now of course we've got one hundred and thirty five,
but it was originally actually local Italian cardinals who fulfill
(01:07):
these roles.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
And so it can only be from one of them.
It can't be I don't know, just someone that's been
baptized in New Zealand. It has to be a part
of that group of cardinals.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Yes, that is a restriction, mind you. Ironically the cardinals
don't have to be ordained. They actually technically could include
a lay person, maybe even a woman, though there's absolutely
no signs of that happening.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Well is it true? Though, just just to jump ahead
that there is the Pope Jones story true that a
woman snuck in there eighty eight five five, and now
they check to make sure it's a man.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Great thought, but all despite the conclude movie, et cetera. No,
I think that's the bit.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Okay, So what is the basic process of selecting the
new pope from these cardinals?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
So this is a really historical thing. It's evolved in
the process because there were times it didn't always select
the popes this way, and in fact it's only been
in the nineteenth century that it got tightened down to
this kind of secret process. And apparently in twenty thirteen
somebody did manage to disguise themselves as a cardinal and
(02:22):
sneak into the election, but it got kicked out by
the Swiss guards. It's not quite out of it down. Effectively,
the cardinals are locked up in the Systeine Chapel and
they have a small piece of paper on which they
can write the name of one of their number that
(02:42):
they think should be pope, and then there will be
discussion and they pause the meals. Meanwhile there's a total
blackout because they do not want cardinals talking on their
cell phones to the media or to you or me.
And they keep doing that four times a day until
(03:02):
they have a pope.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Wow, And I guess this is a pretty broad question,
but what are they looking.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
For so effectively, they're looking at someone who can manage
the global church and who can run the Vatican efficiently.
I mean it is technically the pope is a monarch
as kind of king of the church, and it was
designed in the days when they had monarchs, and hence
(03:29):
all the grandeur of the ceremony involved in it. But
if you can't effectively keep the wheels of the Vatican turning,
keep raising money to pay for the central apparatus of
the church, then the whole thing will collapse. And that's
effectively why Benedict resigned in twenty twelve, because he just
(03:53):
proved incapable, maybe incompetent, at running the Vatican Bank, and
then all the sexual abuse scandals, he just couldn't handle
it anymore. So you've got to be able to do that.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
So that was the first time in say one hundred
years that a pope had stepped down, am I right?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yes, that's right, there's been a few presidents. Francis also
is the first pope for six hundred years to choose
a new name, because normally they're drawn from a small
cluster of names of previous popes, right, And this will
be so interesting to watch what, but whatever the new
pope chooses, because that's the major clue we'll get of
(04:35):
what his focus is.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So, Pope Francis, has he appointed many of the cardinals
that will select his successor. And by looking at at
some of these cardinals, it is a very diverse group,
isn't it. There are some countries there that have cardinals
for the first time sale su Dan Papa, New Guinea.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
And Tonga and Tong. I don't forget tong.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Right, a tongue pope would be good.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
So yeah, this is a really interesting question because yes,
he selected almost well well, O behalf. I think two
thirds of the cardinals are new. They don't know each
other particularly well. And so looking at the people he selected,
because two things might have been born in mind, he
(05:21):
presumably wanted the things that he cared about to be
reflected in the cardinals, but he also had a big
thing about representation of the worldwide church. After all, he
was from South America. So the only thing to bear
in mind is you can't assume that they all think
like Francis, because we already know that the cardinals from
(05:41):
Africa were really unhappy when he proposed a process of
informal blessings of same sex marriage of same sex relationships.
They said, we're not going to do this in Africa.
And these were the cardinals he had selected.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
How important is the pope in twenty twenty five, Where
does it sitt in terms of world leaders as a position.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Well, the pope of the last fifty years had turned
into global figures, and that's a really striking aspect of
the ways in which the papacy works. They really are
spectacularly public in traveling all around the world, and because
of that, I think we can assume these are really
(06:26):
important figures, although they've got no formal power. Remember one
point four billion Catholics, that's a huge proportion the largest
religious group in the world.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, that's incredible, But I mean, in different times they
have had different influence. I'm just actually listening to a
historical broadcast at the moment on ten sixty Sex, and
a lot of it's about Pope Alexander I and sanctioning
William the Conqueror's invasion of England. I oven think he
provided a papal banner for William the Conqueror to attack Unders.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Yes, yes, so the pope in the days when Church
and Stay were handed in glove. Yes, indeed he authorized
the Norman conquest of England and made it very difficult
for Harold and that sort of thing you are unlikely
to see up today happily. But I don't think you
(07:24):
can completely discount the potential influence. For example, the popes
made some previous Pope made some very strong remarks about
Palestine Israel situation, and that's made American Catholics feel very uncomfortable.
And I was most intrigued that apparently one of the
(07:46):
right wing capitalist groups in the States has been taking
potential influential cardinals out for lunch in Rome over the
last week and a half to make sure that they
get somebody who's not to not too socialism, so.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Someone a bit more Benedict like going forward. Well, incredibly interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, so gut Field, Peter. I know it's very hard
to the tumor because it is a secret conclave, but
I believe I Understandtand it took two days to select
Pope Francis last time. What's your gut field this time?
Do you think it will be fast or maybe sometime?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I think it will all be done by Friday Friday night,
I think, I think. I mean, it may take one
more vote than it took with Francis, but people pretty
quickly get realistic. They hear the results of the votes, right.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So it's not a sacret ballot ballot, it's you hear.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Well, you don't know who all right.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right, but you see which way it's going.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yeah, but you see which way it's going. And so
quite clearly, conversation will have gone on overnight, and they'll
come back when they start again tonight, and they'll they'll
be an elimination of various the marginal candidates and they'll
throw their votes behind other people, and so there'll be
(09:05):
a lot of conversations gone overnight. I'd be surprised if
it goes beyond five ballots.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And do you is it a kind of thing where
you know front runners, you have names obviously when they
become the pope, they get a new name, but names
that are at the top of the top of contention.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
There's a lot of names being thrown around as being
top names. But as most key watchers say, this is
probably one of the most open elections that there have
been for ages because of all these new cardinals. And
there clearly will be people from the South who want
another person out of the kind of Italian European domination
(09:47):
of the past thousand years. But as a Hope can't
speak Italian, they'll be at a serious disadvantage, and so
that might put the pressure. And I'm sure the Italians
are angling to get another at least another European back.
So I find it very very difficult to read, let
(10:10):
alone the conservative versus liberal debate that's going on. I'm
sure very yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I'd like to see a Pope Pious. I'd like that
name to come back and to use.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
It's got a nice rink. Oh well, yes, but you
certainly want is politics the ninth his no not run
thing of the twelfth relationships with the with an NZI Germany.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I was I was Pious, the ninth, the longest pope
running Pope but yeah, okay, so not another pious Peter.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's been lovely chatting with you. Thank you very much
for your expertise and and time, and hopefully we'll catch
up maybe next week if there is an election of
our new pope.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Indeed, yes, very good, thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
That is Professor Peter Lynham. He is a religious expert
and scholar of religious history.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
For more from Newstalk set B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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