Chris Hipkins says it's too early to say who he'd be willing to work with after next year's election.
New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters says he'll never work with Labour again while Hipkins is leader.
This means, based on recent polling, Labour would need the Greens and Te Pāti Māori to have any chance of forming a Government.
Newstalk ZB political editor Jason Walls joined the Afternoons team to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We're talking about Winston Peters. In an interview with The Herald,
he has ruled out ever working with labor leader Chris Hipkins.
To chat more about this, we are joined by our
political editor Jason Walls. Get a mate, Good afternoon, my friends.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
How old were you doing?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Fantastic? Thank you. What do you think voters think of
leaders who will slag off other parties and other politicians
but not rule out working with them? Jason?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Nice, easy one to start off, Jason, Oh yeah, he's
throw me the curve balls early on.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
So what was it again? Sorry, I had a hard
time tracking that.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Well, let's see if I can remember what I said.
It was something like, what do voters think in your
experience of leaders? How to voters react to leaders who
will slag off members of other parties and other parties
but will not rule out working with them. Chippy has
said some pretty horrific things about Winston Peters, but then
he'll leave the little door open just a little bit,
(01:10):
just on the off chance that he'll need him come
post election.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I think I know what. Yah, So Chippy said this
this morning when he was asked about this story.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
I think, frankly, New Zealanders have had enough of being
held to ransom by Winston Peters and David Seymour. I
think they want to get back to the idea that
the government's there to serve people rather than serve themselves,
which you know Winston Peter's frankly as a master.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so rule them out.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah. The thing is that you can't hear something like
that and think that Chippy is going to go cap
in hand to Winston Peters after the election. It just
doesn't make any sense. But then again, you think about
what Winston Peters said about the National Party when he
was in OP when he was he was deputy Prime
Minister under Justinda Ardern. I mean I remember quite quite
(01:52):
firmly in my mind this this instance where we were
on the black and white tiles, which is where we
get ministers before they go into the House, and just
Sinda ardun was doing a press conference. Winston Peters came
walking on behind her and usually he just darts straight
through and hopes not to get or pretends to hope
he's not going to be called by reporters. But he
waited and he waited, and he waited until just send
it our durn finished up, and then he looked at us,
(02:14):
got his phone out started This is when Simon Bridges
was the leader of the NATS, started playing the song
on his phone called Burning Bridges and just walked through
with the entire press frum playing this very loudly. And
this is we were like, he will never work with National?
How could he work with National after pulling a stunt
like this? But Winston, and I hate saying this, but
it's the old cliche. Winston is Winston, and of course
(02:35):
look what happened now, and him and Chris Luxon are
just sort of two peas in a political pot at
the moment.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
So you're saying that Chris Hopkins is running the same
playbook as Winston Peters.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I think it's a lot different. Only Winston can get
away with what Winston does. And he holds a grudge,
grudge like no one else. And I know me saying
he holds a grudge like no one else on air
means he's going to hold a grudge against me, which
I'm very excited about. For the next couple of months,
but it's he he'll remember these sorts of things and
he'll remember these comments. So it seems extremely unlikely. But
(03:06):
it's never smart to really rule any political party out
because you do need a little bit of lever.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, but I guess they're smart and what's morally right.
And so if you believe in something, and if Chris
Hopkins absolutely believes the things that he says about Winston Peters,
then it shouldn't even take him a second to follow
that up by saying I wouldn't work with them. Otherwise
you call into question what he's saying, whether he actually
believes in what he's saying.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Oh exactly, And the sort of things that he said
about working with Winston Peters when they're in government. I mean,
it's the sort of things that you can't take back.
And this isn't just the sort of things that Hopkins
has said to me over a quiet beer. He said
these things on Morning Report, he said them on breakfast radios,
so it's not like he's been quiet.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
But just leave the door open a little bit, just
in case it.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Works with its slightly a jar, just in case things
get better, you know. But it's that old captain's cool situation,
isn't it, Jason. What I hear when I heard that
interview with Ryan Bridge this morning with Chippy is Chippy
has buger or leverage.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
By leaving that door open or needing to he knows
he doesn't have much leverage eighteen months out from an election.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Well, that's exactly the That's exactly right. I mean at
this point, if he doesn't work with Winston Peters, he
needs to see the Greens anti Party Marty and his
own Labor Party have a resurgence to the point where
they just consistently polling above that threshold. And I just
don't it's hard to imagine that happening between now and
the election, because I'll tell you what. I was listening
(04:28):
to David Farrier who was doing a segment on Heather
Duplusy Allen, and he was talking about this data that
he has about the drag of other leaders that they
have on the main parties, and he found that if
you're a National Party supporter, you tend to like Winston Peters,
you tend to like David Seymour, so you're not too
worried if they're in a coalition together because generally you
(04:49):
understand the ethos that all three leaders have. You don't
have to love them, but you don't hate them. When
that same information was done and that same polling was
done about the Labor Party when it came to the
Greens anti party Marty, they found that Labor voters did
not like Chloe Swarbrick and mar Davidson and did not
like Demi Nardi Werepacker are with you?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Wait?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And so that's really going to come and bite the
sort of the soft middle when it comes to the election,
because they're going to be looking at those support partners
on the left and thinking not for me, thank you
very much. I'm going to stick somewhere safer, which is
the center rate.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Jason, we're loving this. Can you stick with us for
another couple of minutes. We've got to play some messages,
but we've got a few more questions for you.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Is that all right now?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I think I can do that for you boys.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I want to ask you what it's like to be
in that media pack facing when he's in full full fly.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
He is fascinated by it, Jason, beautiful.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
You got to say it's interesting. People were very harsh
on sign Bridges when he was in power now I
think nice people love him. Yeah, it's kind of nice.
Bear hindsight is twenty when it all goes away.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Now we are cause joined by our political editor Jason Wolves.
Thanks for hanging with us, Jason, of course.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Two quick questions. Firstly, in your opinion, how has Winston
done as Deputy Prime Minister with less than a week
to go?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, I'd die the third time. Yeah,
I couldn't rate him badly. I mean, he's one of
the best, if not the best foreign ministers that New
Zealand has ever had, and he's done an exceptional job
in that capacity. While he's been in the job. He's
been to I think I saw forty three different countries, forty.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Four countries, and he's spent one hundred and fifty two
days overseas traveling.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And that's what you want as a foreign minister. At
the same time, he's New Zealand First leader, and New
Zealand First has kept its ratings up in the polls.
Usually we see New Zealand First slump when they're in
these positions of power. And again this comes back to
for me the leadership of Chris Luxon, saying that Winston
you go ahead and be Winston while you're Deputy Prime Minister,
because he's thinking about the next election saying well, we
(06:53):
need New Zealand first, and for New Zealand first to
get back into power, you need to continue to be
New Zealand first while you're in office. So I rate
him relatively highly. I think that where he does have faults,
as in the House. It's hard watching him in the
House because he just continues to sort of flaunt the
rules and not really listen to the speaker when it
comes to the things that he's doing wrong, and he
(07:13):
just makes these ridiculous little supplementary questions every once in
a while that make absolutely no sense. But he can't
really fault the fact that he's juggling three pretty major things.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
And as TP Prime ministery doesn't lay off as a
text on the media. And you've been in the front
line a lot of the media pack, How is it
to face up against Winston Peterson in full flight? Jason Wilf, Well.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
It's hard when you're a junior reporter because he doesn't
hold back, and what he does is he knows that
if you're not very confident, he'll exploit that. There are
some politicians where they know that if it's a newer
reporter and they're just asking questions on behalf of a colleague,
they'll help you out a little bit and they know
the gist of what you're asking. With Winston, if you're
not precise to the letter and the detail of what
it is you're asking, he'll rip you out in front
(07:57):
of absolutely everybody there. So when you get a little
bit of confidence, you give it back to him a
little bit, and he likes it. He does like a
little bit of back and forth. There's a reporter in
the Herald office, actually, Jamie Ensawer, who seems to have
made it a mission to get under Winston's skin in
these sort of interviews. He's a very good reporter, but
you get the best grabs out of him when you
actually sort of dig in a little bit and he
(08:18):
hits you with, oh the words matter, and then you
go back and quote something that he said in back
in nineteen Ditaly something and then he just kind of
laughs at you. So he's a lot of fun. I mean,
I don't know if it's the best for sort of
media trust in New Zealand to have somebody that's consistently
saying how bad we are at our jobs, but you
know I have fun.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Bring it on, Winston. Yeah, Jason, thank you very much
as always, mate, and great to catch up.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Thanks guys, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
That is our political editor, Jason Wolves.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
For more from News Talks d B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We're talking about Winston Peters. In an interview with The Herald,
he has ruled out ever working with labor leader Chris Hipkins.
To chat more about this, we are joined by our
political editor Jason Walls. Get a mate, Good afternoon, my friends.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
How old were you doing?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Fantastic? Thank you. What do you think voters think of
leaders who will slag off other parties and other politicians
but not rule out working with them? Jason?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Nice, easy one to start off, Jason, Oh yeah, he's
throw me the curve balls early on.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
So what was it again? Sorry, I had a hard
time tracking that.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Well, let's see if I can remember what I said.
It was something like, what do voters think in your
experience of leaders? How to voters react to leaders who
will slag off members of other parties and other parties
but will not rule out working with them. Chippy has
said some pretty horrific things about Winston Peters, but then
he'll leave the little door open just a little bit,
(01:10):
just on the off chance that he'll need him come
post election.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I think I know what. Yah, So Chippy said this
this morning when he was asked about this story.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
I think, frankly, New Zealanders have had enough of being
held to ransom by Winston Peters and David Seymour. I
think they want to get back to the idea that
the government's there to serve people rather than serve themselves,
which you know Winston Peter's frankly as a master.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so rule them out.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah. The thing is that you can't hear something like
that and think that Chippy is going to go cap
in hand to Winston Peters after the election. It just
doesn't make any sense. But then again, you think about
what Winston Peters said about the National Party when he
was in OP when he was he was deputy Prime
Minister under Justinda Ardern. I mean I remember quite quite
(01:52):
firmly in my mind this this instance where we were
on the black and white tiles, which is where we
get ministers before they go into the House, and just
Sinda ardun was doing a press conference. Winston Peters came
walking on behind her and usually he just darts straight
through and hopes not to get or pretends to hope
he's not going to be called by reporters. But he
waited and he waited, and he waited until just send
it our durn finished up, and then he looked at us,
(02:14):
got his phone out started This is when Simon Bridges
was the leader of the NATS, started playing the song
on his phone called Burning Bridges and just walked through
with the entire press frum playing this very loudly. And
this is we were like, he will never work with National?
How could he work with National after pulling a stunt
like this? But Winston, and I hate saying this, but
it's the old cliche. Winston is Winston, and of course
(02:35):
look what happened now, and him and Chris Luxon are
just sort of two peas in a political pot at
the moment.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
So you're saying that Chris Hopkins is running the same
playbook as Winston Peters.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I think it's a lot different. Only Winston can get
away with what Winston does. And he holds a grudge,
grudge like no one else. And I know me saying
he holds a grudge like no one else on air
means he's going to hold a grudge against me, which
I'm very excited about. For the next couple of months,
but it's he he'll remember these sorts of things and
he'll remember these comments. So it seems extremely unlikely. But
(03:06):
it's never smart to really rule any political party out
because you do need a little bit of lever.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, but I guess they're smart and what's morally right.
And so if you believe in something, and if Chris
Hopkins absolutely believes the things that he says about Winston Peters,
then it shouldn't even take him a second to follow
that up by saying I wouldn't work with them. Otherwise
you call into question what he's saying, whether he actually
believes in what he's saying.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Oh exactly, And the sort of things that he said
about working with Winston Peters when they're in government. I mean,
it's the sort of things that you can't take back.
And this isn't just the sort of things that Hopkins
has said to me over a quiet beer. He said
these things on Morning Report, he said them on breakfast radios,
so it's not like he's been quiet.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
But just leave the door open a little bit, just
in case it.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Works with its slightly a jar, just in case things
get better, you know. But it's that old captain's cool situation,
isn't it, Jason. What I hear when I heard that
interview with Ryan Bridge this morning with Chippy is Chippy
has buger or leverage.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
By leaving that door open or needing to he knows
he doesn't have much leverage eighteen months out from an election.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Well, that's exactly the That's exactly right. I mean at
this point, if he doesn't work with Winston Peters, he
needs to see the Greens anti Party Marty and his
own Labor Party have a resurgence to the point where
they just consistently polling above that threshold. And I just
don't it's hard to imagine that happening between now and
the election, because I'll tell you what. I was listening
(04:28):
to David Farrier who was doing a segment on Heather
Duplusy Allen, and he was talking about this data that
he has about the drag of other leaders that they
have on the main parties, and he found that if
you're a National Party supporter, you tend to like Winston Peters,
you tend to like David Seymour, so you're not too
worried if they're in a coalition together because generally you
(04:49):
understand the ethos that all three leaders have. You don't
have to love them, but you don't hate them. When
that same information was done and that same polling was
done about the Labor Party when it came to the
Greens anti party Marty, they found that Labor voters did
not like Chloe Swarbrick and mar Davidson and did not
like Demi Nardi Werepacker are with you?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Wait?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And so that's really going to come and bite the
sort of the soft middle when it comes to the election,
because they're going to be looking at those support partners
on the left and thinking not for me, thank you
very much. I'm going to stick somewhere safer, which is
the center rate.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Jason, we're loving this. Can you stick with us for
another couple of minutes. We've got to play some messages,
but we've got a few more questions for you.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Is that all right now?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I think I can do that for you boys.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I want to ask you what it's like to be
in that media pack facing when he's in full full fly.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
He is fascinated by it, Jason, beautiful.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
You got to say it's interesting. People were very harsh
on sign Bridges when he was in power now I
think nice people love him. Yeah, it's kind of nice.
Bear hindsight is twenty when it all goes away.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Now we are cause joined by our political editor Jason Wolves.
Thanks for hanging with us, Jason, of course.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Two quick questions. Firstly, in your opinion, how has Winston
done as Deputy Prime Minister with less than a week
to go?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, I'd die the third time. Yeah,
I couldn't rate him badly. I mean, he's one of
the best, if not the best foreign ministers that New
Zealand has ever had, and he's done an exceptional job
in that capacity. While he's been in the job. He's
been to I think I saw forty three different countries, forty.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Four countries, and he's spent one hundred and fifty two
days overseas traveling.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And that's what you want as a foreign minister. At
the same time, he's New Zealand First leader, and New
Zealand First has kept its ratings up in the polls.
Usually we see New Zealand First slump when they're in
these positions of power. And again this comes back to
for me the leadership of Chris Luxon, saying that Winston
you go ahead and be Winston while you're Deputy Prime Minister,
because he's thinking about the next election saying well, we
(06:53):
need New Zealand first, and for New Zealand first to
get back into power, you need to continue to be
New Zealand first while you're in office. So I rate
him relatively highly. I think that where he does have faults,
as in the House. It's hard watching him in the
House because he just continues to sort of flaunt the
rules and not really listen to the speaker when it
comes to the things that he's doing wrong, and he
(07:13):
just makes these ridiculous little supplementary questions every once in
a while that make absolutely no sense. But he can't
really fault the fact that he's juggling three pretty major things.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
And as TP Prime ministery doesn't lay off as a
text on the media. And you've been in the front
line a lot of the media pack, How is it
to face up against Winston Peterson in full flight? Jason Wilf, Well.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
It's hard when you're a junior reporter because he doesn't
hold back, and what he does is he knows that
if you're not very confident, he'll exploit that. There are
some politicians where they know that if it's a newer
reporter and they're just asking questions on behalf of a colleague,
they'll help you out a little bit and they know
the gist of what you're asking. With Winston, if you're
not precise to the letter and the detail of what
it is you're asking, he'll rip you out in front
(07:57):
of absolutely everybody there. So when you get a little
bit of confidence, you give it back to him a
little bit, and he likes it. He does like a
little bit of back and forth. There's a reporter in
the Herald office, actually, Jamie Ensawer, who seems to have
made it a mission to get under Winston's skin in
these sort of interviews. He's a very good reporter, but
you get the best grabs out of him when you
actually sort of dig in a little bit and he
(08:18):
hits you with, oh the words matter, and then you
go back and quote something that he said in back
in nineteen Ditaly something and then he just kind of
laughs at you. So he's a lot of fun. I mean,
I don't know if it's the best for sort of
media trust in New Zealand to have somebody that's consistently
saying how bad we are at our jobs, but you
know I have fun.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Bring it on, Winston. Yeah, Jason, thank you very much
as always, mate, and great to catch up.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Thanks guys, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
That is our political editor, Jason Wolves.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
For more from News Talks d B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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