June 22, 2025 • 12 mins
Wellington regional council's Simon Woolf is among those calling for local Government to be reformed.
New Zealand First's Shane Jones last week told a local Government forum he doesn't see a compelling reason for maintaining regional government.
Woolf labelled it a 'mess' that needed a review - and he joined the Afternoons team to explain why.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Simon, Welcome to the show, Simon Wolfe.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Yeah, Hi guy, Yeah, you might know. I've had experience
in both areas of local government in the regional council
now in nine years on the City council, and local
government is a mess. It needs review, it needs reform,
but also central government need to treat it more seriously
(00:40):
as a vehicle that can be more effective and more efficient.
And you know, Wellington's a really good example. You know,
we on the Regional council. We have the environment, we
have transport, but you know where we're we're sort of
interlinked a rural a big rural area to the north
(01:02):
of us in an urban area within Wellington. But there's
a lot of cross subsidization there. There's it just needs
to be streamlined more. Part of the big problem with
cost is government compliance and party politics. Each time a
government puts out a national policy statement, generally a council
(01:27):
will have to to to move and change. But there's nothing,
no remuneration to help that happen. So you have to employ,
don't you you you you really you've got new new
lines that you've you've got to sort out. So it's
it's interesting, but it certainly from my experience, it's not
(01:51):
getting any better. It's getting worse. One of the things
that I should just let you guys know is that
there are there are three or four different types of council.
People are getting confused district council. You've got a district council,
you've got a city council, and you've got a regional council.
And then in Auckland you've got a unitary And I
(02:14):
think with Wellington we should be looking to have a
phased amalgamation, you know, the two huts together, Wellington and
Pari Ruh together to start off with maybe carpety and
Horrorfanu and the wire Rapper. Probably the best example is
Wellington with it having a city Council which handles the
(02:36):
urban requirement of it should be the pipes and the
roads and the parks and the libraries, but it does
get into other things. Whereas the regional council is the
region of four hundred and fifty thousand going up to
wire Rapper and across to Otaki and down back to
Wellington and it's urban and rural, but it handles really
(02:59):
only the public transport offering the trains in the buses
and also the environment which is a very very technical area.
In fact, both are technical areas.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So we've got little councils, we've got other little councils
underneath that major regional council as well, not under but
you know in the same district.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, within within our district. You know, we've got some
carpety obviously the two huts and also the three councils
in in so you know, like it's a hotspotch and
and each have their different prerequisites and it's it's really
(03:41):
really hard to align the ball fairly.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Do community boards play any part with regional councils What
they bring to the table at the community level, Does
that have any bearing at the regional council level?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
No, No, regional council Well, our regional council certainly doesn't
have community boards. But we do align ourselves with some
of the community boards that are more rurally aligned, you know,
like I go along to Macro Ohario Community Board from
time to time when they have difficulties with the farming
(04:17):
or the environmental sort of side. But there again is
an anomaly because we actually should have more involvement with
those communities. Shane Shane Jones and his little speech last week,
he knew exactly what he was doing, serving up some
some publicity about regional councils, and I think he was
(04:41):
more it was more with and more. It was more
talking about not just the regional councils, but the district
and the city councils that were in the regions. And
Shane's really good at this. I just hope that he
he drives some some review and reform because it's really
really important. It is costing us, as costing everyone, and
(05:05):
you know, there's there's it's in a way part of
the problem is parochialism. Some of and some of your
call has talked about, you know, we're only five million
and we've got all these little councils. We would be
much more effective, efficient, and especially from a rate paying perspective,
if some of the councils were merged and were amalgamated,
(05:32):
and particularly you look at the issues with water. You know,
the great at Wellington Regional Council and the city councils
all have parks, interests. You know, there's a lot of
duplication and triplication going on, and it's really full, it's
really full hearty. It's not practical or pragmatic. But I
(05:53):
think you're probably the biggest issue within councils generally, and
I've experienced both both the good and the bad of
this is where councils either have a good culture or
a bad culture. And you know, like coming from the
Wellington City Council to the Regional Council, I would just
(06:13):
never go back. You know, the Regional Council has great
leadership all the way through. It's structured really really well.
The councilors have expertise and if I was to say anything,
you know, like I'm on a steep learning curve in
my first term. But there asn't the party politics that
(06:37):
you got in the Wellington City Council. And we've been
able to make decisions and have robust conversations. There's creative
creative tension quite a lot of the time, but we
work together to try and create solutions. We're not perfect
and the model of of councils is just terrible.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
You know, would would you suggest just regional councils then
so less councils, just regional councils.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Well, I wouldn't call them regional council there would be
some some other term that you know.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, if there was only then they could just be
called councils.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, I think. I think so with with community boards
feeding in, I think that's really really important because you've
got to have the engagement and the feedback.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
This might this might seem like a silly question, but
if there's you say, this duplication, So who has the
final say?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
If there's if there's if you've got the city Council
and the regional council disagreeing on something in in a
duplicated area, who who has the authority?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Well they just fight it out. And you know that's
what's happening at the moment with Wellington City and the
Regional Council in relation to the regional council has the
buses and the City Council is the road enabling authority
and say where you can put bus stops and what
you can where you can put.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yellow That's crazy, that is crazy.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
That's an absolutely a terrible situation that occurs. And with
that you have your political views that influence what goes
on there, and you can have the most reasonable pragmatic
officials or even on one side, elected people, and on
(08:31):
the other you might have ideology and it's gonna just
stalemates and you get all this conflict that who pays
the rate payer?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Well, even outside of the even outside of the elected
councilor's simon, would you agree that at the city council
or the council level staff members sometimes it's the tail
wagging the dog where it appears regional council, you as
an elected member have more say I.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Haven't found that a regional council. I certainly found it
in the city council of my nine years, I certainly
found that there were areas there that people pats protected.
You know, they've ren fenced themselves. And it wouldn't have
mattered what sort of votes went through that that had
(09:21):
been changed. It would have been really really slow if
any whereas the situation that I found on the regional council,
that that does not happen. Fortunately, we we had a
two really strong leaders politically and operationally, and I think
they're both really pragmatic people focused, they have empathy, and
(09:42):
they have technical expertise as well, and they lead us
really well. And you know we're not we're not faultless,
you know, we're certainly not. And the other thing is
that you know you're having to jump through hoops and
change direction all the time. You know that the continuity
(10:03):
and consistency largely because of government and the national us
as statements. You're always on edge, and it doesn't matter
what council you're on. You'd have to refocus and reprioritize
all the time, and something is going to get left behind.
And that is why, that's the big reason why I
(10:26):
believe that the councils are wildly and that central government
doesn't take local government seriously enough to be able to
have them both work the right way.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Now, if we think that regional would be better than having,
you know, like larger councils, why don't we just take
it right to the top and just have central government.
There's only five million of us, so why don't the
decision making all get done by central government? I don't know,
you could empower electorate MPs or some form of I
don't know, an MP for each each part of the
(11:00):
country or whatever. Why don't we just expand it out
that central government makes all the decisions.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Because I think that central government but they couldn't cope,
you know, like I believe that the workload of a
of a city councilor in particular, and regional councilors in
metros in particular is huge, you know, like it's a
(11:26):
really really big workload. I'm not it's not just being
too disparaging of MPs, but I'm not sure that that
within what they have to handle currently and to have
that added on would be a good thing. Let alone,
you do want the democratic process that there is the
(11:48):
need to have localism represented. I think, you know, count
the less layers the better, and really there are too
many layers. But I don't think canning councils is the
right right way. It's scanning some of a it's condensing
(12:09):
stuff so that it takes away some of the conflict
and the costs.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Simon, great to get your expertise, Thank you very much,
and good to break that down, and good luck going
forward with your regional council role. I was going to
say it was a bit like Turkey voting for Christmas,
but I think to Simon's point, he would prefer Regional
Council to become just the council and you take party
politics and in fighting away from it, and he's found
(12:37):
regional council was far nicer, less toxic environment than the
city council.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Simon, Welcome to the show, Simon Wolfe.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Yeah, Hi guy, Yeah, you might know. I've had experience
in both areas of local government in the regional council
now in nine years on the City council, and local
government is a mess. It needs review, it needs reform,
but also central government need to treat it more seriously
(00:40):
as a vehicle that can be more effective and more efficient.
And you know, Wellington's a really good example. You know,
we on the Regional council. We have the environment, we
have transport, but you know where we're we're sort of
interlinked a rural a big rural area to the north
(01:02):
of us in an urban area within Wellington. But there's
a lot of cross subsidization there. There's it just needs
to be streamlined more. Part of the big problem with
cost is government compliance and party politics. Each time a
government puts out a national policy statement, generally a council
(01:27):
will have to to to move and change. But there's nothing,
no remuneration to help that happen. So you have to employ,
don't you you you you really you've got new new
lines that you've you've got to sort out. So it's
it's interesting, but it certainly from my experience, it's not
(01:51):
getting any better. It's getting worse. One of the things
that I should just let you guys know is that
there are there are three or four different types of council.
People are getting confused district council. You've got a district council,
you've got a city council, and you've got a regional council.
And then in Auckland you've got a unitary And I
(02:14):
think with Wellington we should be looking to have a
phased amalgamation, you know, the two huts together, Wellington and
Pari Ruh together to start off with maybe carpety and
Horrorfanu and the wire Rapper. Probably the best example is
Wellington with it having a city Council which handles the
(02:36):
urban requirement of it should be the pipes and the
roads and the parks and the libraries, but it does
get into other things. Whereas the regional council is the
region of four hundred and fifty thousand going up to
wire Rapper and across to Otaki and down back to
Wellington and it's urban and rural, but it handles really
(02:59):
only the public transport offering the trains in the buses
and also the environment which is a very very technical area.
In fact, both are technical areas.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So we've got little councils, we've got other little councils
underneath that major regional council as well, not under but
you know in the same district.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, within within our district. You know, we've got some
carpety obviously the two huts and also the three councils
in in so you know, like it's a hotspotch and
and each have their different prerequisites and it's it's really
(03:41):
really hard to align the ball fairly.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Do community boards play any part with regional councils What
they bring to the table at the community level, Does
that have any bearing at the regional council level?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
No, No, regional council Well, our regional council certainly doesn't
have community boards. But we do align ourselves with some
of the community boards that are more rurally aligned, you know,
like I go along to Macro Ohario Community Board from
time to time when they have difficulties with the farming
(04:17):
or the environmental sort of side. But there again is
an anomaly because we actually should have more involvement with
those communities. Shane Shane Jones and his little speech last week,
he knew exactly what he was doing, serving up some
some publicity about regional councils, and I think he was
(04:41):
more it was more with and more. It was more
talking about not just the regional councils, but the district
and the city councils that were in the regions. And
Shane's really good at this. I just hope that he
he drives some some review and reform because it's really
really important. It is costing us, as costing everyone, and
(05:05):
you know, there's there's it's in a way part of
the problem is parochialism. Some of and some of your
call has talked about, you know, we're only five million
and we've got all these little councils. We would be
much more effective, efficient, and especially from a rate paying perspective,
if some of the councils were merged and were amalgamated,
(05:32):
and particularly you look at the issues with water. You know,
the great at Wellington Regional Council and the city councils
all have parks, interests. You know, there's a lot of
duplication and triplication going on, and it's really full, it's
really full hearty. It's not practical or pragmatic. But I
(05:53):
think you're probably the biggest issue within councils generally, and
I've experienced both both the good and the bad of
this is where councils either have a good culture or
a bad culture. And you know, like coming from the
Wellington City Council to the Regional Council, I would just
(06:13):
never go back. You know, the Regional Council has great
leadership all the way through. It's structured really really well.
The councilors have expertise and if I was to say anything,
you know, like I'm on a steep learning curve in
my first term. But there asn't the party politics that
(06:37):
you got in the Wellington City Council. And we've been
able to make decisions and have robust conversations. There's creative
creative tension quite a lot of the time, but we
work together to try and create solutions. We're not perfect
and the model of of councils is just terrible.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
You know, would would you suggest just regional councils then
so less councils, just regional councils.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Well, I wouldn't call them regional council there would be
some some other term that you know.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, if there was only then they could just be
called councils.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, I think. I think so with with community boards
feeding in, I think that's really really important because you've
got to have the engagement and the feedback.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
This might this might seem like a silly question, but
if there's you say, this duplication, So who has the
final say?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
If there's if there's if you've got the city Council
and the regional council disagreeing on something in in a
duplicated area, who who has the authority?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Well they just fight it out. And you know that's
what's happening at the moment with Wellington City and the
Regional Council in relation to the regional council has the
buses and the City Council is the road enabling authority
and say where you can put bus stops and what
you can where you can put.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yellow That's crazy, that is crazy.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
That's an absolutely a terrible situation that occurs. And with
that you have your political views that influence what goes
on there, and you can have the most reasonable pragmatic
officials or even on one side, elected people, and on
(08:31):
the other you might have ideology and it's gonna just
stalemates and you get all this conflict that who pays
the rate payer?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Well, even outside of the even outside of the elected
councilor's simon, would you agree that at the city council
or the council level staff members sometimes it's the tail
wagging the dog where it appears regional council, you as
an elected member have more say I.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Haven't found that a regional council. I certainly found it
in the city council of my nine years, I certainly
found that there were areas there that people pats protected.
You know, they've ren fenced themselves. And it wouldn't have
mattered what sort of votes went through that that had
(09:21):
been changed. It would have been really really slow if
any whereas the situation that I found on the regional council,
that that does not happen. Fortunately, we we had a
two really strong leaders politically and operationally, and I think
they're both really pragmatic people focused, they have empathy, and
(09:42):
they have technical expertise as well, and they lead us
really well. And you know we're not we're not faultless,
you know, we're certainly not. And the other thing is
that you know you're having to jump through hoops and
change direction all the time. You know that the continuity
(10:03):
and consistency largely because of government and the national us
as statements. You're always on edge, and it doesn't matter
what council you're on. You'd have to refocus and reprioritize
all the time, and something is going to get left behind.
And that is why, that's the big reason why I
(10:26):
believe that the councils are wildly and that central government
doesn't take local government seriously enough to be able to
have them both work the right way.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Now, if we think that regional would be better than having,
you know, like larger councils, why don't we just take
it right to the top and just have central government.
There's only five million of us, so why don't the
decision making all get done by central government? I don't know,
you could empower electorate MPs or some form of I
don't know, an MP for each each part of the
(11:00):
country or whatever. Why don't we just expand it out
that central government makes all the decisions.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Because I think that central government but they couldn't cope,
you know, like I believe that the workload of a
of a city councilor in particular, and regional councilors in
metros in particular is huge, you know, like it's a
(11:26):
really really big workload. I'm not it's not just being
too disparaging of MPs, but I'm not sure that that
within what they have to handle currently and to have
that added on would be a good thing. Let alone,
you do want the democratic process that there is the
(11:48):
need to have localism represented. I think, you know, count
the less layers the better, and really there are too
many layers. But I don't think canning councils is the
right right way. It's scanning some of a it's condensing
(12:09):
stuff so that it takes away some of the conflict
and the costs.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Simon, great to get your expertise, Thank you very much,
and good to break that down, and good luck going
forward with your regional council role. I was going to
say it was a bit like Turkey voting for Christmas,
but I think to Simon's point, he would prefer Regional
Council to become just the council and you take party
politics and in fighting away from it, and he's found
(12:37):
regional council was far nicer, less toxic environment than the
city council.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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