Eyebrows have been raised among experts as a growing number of Kiwi kids have been using AI as a personal companion.
AI has become a source of emotional support and companionship for 23 percent of New Zealand school children, according to cyber security firm Norton.
Papatoetoe High Principal Vaughan Couillault joined the Afternoons team to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Artificial intelligence chatbots they are replacing friends for twenty three
percent of New Zealand kids. That is according to Norton
Anti Virus and Cybersecurity. To chat further about this, we're
now joined by Papatoe Toe High School Principal Vaughn coll You, Vaughn,
very good afternoon to you. Nice to have your company.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
All good.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Now, what do you see as the risks that come
with kids using AI chatbods instead of human boddies?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah, Interestingly, I'd just like to say that I'm not
sure the sample size that Norton used in their research
was particularly problematic, was well particularly decently? Same side, isn't
a thousand people? Yeah, it's very light, and there's more
people at my school and it's sampled, and so I
don't think my school is indicative of the entire New
Zealand population. But nonetheless, we are getting increasing numbers of
(01:09):
young people who are overly connected to their device, whatever
that might be. So it could be from a social
media perspective or now as the AI technologies improve or
advance I should say to someone who's actually not a
human that they're developing a relationship with. So it can
be problematic.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Schools can be brutal, of course, and you know, parents
worry about their kids, you know, dropping them off at
the gate. They have to interact with so many different people.
But so is life. Life is brutal as well. So
as part of the school experience learning how to deal
with people that maybe not well, some people are actually
out to get you all through life. And is that
part of the school experience, learning how to deal with
(01:52):
complex interactions and the foeables of other humans.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I'd like to rephrase that a bit. Some relationships can
be complicated with people in a large space. Schools can
also be incredibly warm and support of when when you're
in need. So sometimes some particular relationships can be problematic,
and you do have to develop a degree of resilience
as a human. When you think about how my own
(02:20):
family banters around the dining room table. Some of it
can be pretty harsh when you look at it from
the outside, but the reality is actually I love those
people across the table and doing anything I could to
help them and support them. And so schools have a
very similar vibe. Most of the grown ups and a
schools really like being there and want to look after
the young ones. And fostering that relationship between humans and
(02:43):
also giving people skills to know what to do when
things get hard are particularly important.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Well, you talk about banter, and that's you know, banter
is a way that you win people over, and you know,
like making someone laugh is important for friendship, and so
I guess my point is if you're talking to an
AI chatbot, what you're really eating is what you want
back and as opposed to having to win the chatbot over.
(03:13):
So while schools can be warm environments, as you say,
even in that case, you still have to be saying
something funny every couple of minutes in your circle of
friends to really move that friendship board.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Absolutely, And as with any sort of algorithm, it will
give you back what you're sort of seeking. So in
a short term, think of it like a band aid
or a moro bar at the supermarket. It might be
quite useful in the short term. It's that when you
become dependent on that type of interaction and unable to
(03:46):
engage in other interactions with real humans, that you're developing
yourself a bit of a problem. You know, there's nothing
wrong with you grabbing that Moro bar as you go
through the checkout counter because you skip lunch and you've
done it once in the last three months. But if
you're eating a chocolate bar instead of a meal every day,
suddenly you've got some nutritional issues.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, how do you deal with that as a principal?
Warm Because I imagine you've got a lot of students
at your school utilizing this technology AI to ask various
questions they have about life that they're too afraid to
ask a teacher or the parent or even a friend,
and some of that information, as we know, comes back
and it's a lot hallucinations they call a hallucination. So
(04:24):
how do you deal with that as a school principle
and someone in the education sector to talk with kids
about that that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, So the AI flane of thing is really rapidly evolving,
as you'll know. So i'd have to say in most
cases we're all playing a bit of rapid catch up
with regard to that. But in terms of conflict, in
terms of relationships, in terms of building resilience between two people's,
schools have been doing that for a long long time.
And so you remember when you and I were back
at school. I don't know how old you guys are,
(04:51):
but for me, it was very Jurassic. But you know,
we had we had counsel as, we had deans, we
had support people. In a high school space, in a
primary school space, you got to know that classroom teacher
of yours really well and they got to know you
really well so they could cull when you were off
color and the importance of that huge uman interaction. But
also in the secondary space, which is where my skill
(05:13):
set is, there's lots of work that goes in and
year nine in your turn about what a healthy relationship
looks like. Not only will another person not with digital devices,
keeping yourself safe online, what you can do when you
don't know what to do. Lots of lots of education
happens in terms of promoting options for connection when connection
is something you are seeking.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's an interesting one because people say, look, you can
have these AI chatbots or just AI in general coming
up with these hallucinations, which it's when they feed you
something that as if it's true, but it's just the
way they've gathered the information. In the larger language models,
so it comes not true. But the thing is that
can happen with humans. Humans are always giving you information
that's not true, that their straw is true. So you
(05:57):
know that, you know that is part of life as well,
learning what is true and what is not true and
finding your way through the information that's not right.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely, you've always had to You've always had to
filter your sources. You know, you're getting some feedback after
a sports game and someone saw that that was a foul,
and the other person didn't think that was a foul,
and who do you believe because they actually were both
watching the same game. So in every aspect of life,
you've got to filter the information you're given and try
to work out what is the best course of action
for you. But given that humans are pack animals and
(06:31):
we don't do well by ourselves, it's really important that
we help provide our young people with the skills to
engage in the majority with other humans. And it might
be good that you embellish what you're doing with in
the digital space, but actually your primary connection's got to
be with real people.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
And finally, Vaughn, do you think the government should be
jumping in and regulating this kind of thing a ban
for under sixteens like has been suggested for social media,
or do you think that's not practical.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Practically that's particularly challenging. You know, I'm a very proactive parent.
My wife and I very pro have parents with our
children when they were younger, and it's very, very, very
difficult to work out what they're doing every minute of
every day. And the reality is the practicalities of how
to create consequence for the provider of those social media
(07:21):
services should they have been found to be in breach
would be particularly challenging. And we can lock to overseas
jurisdictions around that, and they're all fumbling with the same thing.
The reality is what it comes down to is healthy,
strong families and people knowing what their kids are doing.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Vaughn, great to chat with you. Thank you very much.
You're at the cold front of a very interesting type
in education. But really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
For more from News Talks ed B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Artificial intelligence chatbots they are replacing friends for twenty three
percent of New Zealand kids. That is according to Norton
Anti Virus and Cybersecurity. To chat further about this, we're
now joined by Papatoe Toe High School Principal Vaughn coll You, Vaughn,
very good afternoon to you. Nice to have your company.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
All good.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Now, what do you see as the risks that come
with kids using AI chatbods instead of human boddies?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah, Interestingly, I'd just like to say that I'm not
sure the sample size that Norton used in their research
was particularly problematic, was well particularly decently? Same side, isn't
a thousand people? Yeah, it's very light, and there's more
people at my school and it's sampled, and so I
don't think my school is indicative of the entire New
Zealand population. But nonetheless, we are getting increasing numbers of
(01:09):
young people who are overly connected to their device, whatever
that might be. So it could be from a social
media perspective or now as the AI technologies improve or
advance I should say to someone who's actually not a
human that they're developing a relationship with. So it can
be problematic.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Schools can be brutal, of course, and you know, parents
worry about their kids, you know, dropping them off at
the gate. They have to interact with so many different people.
But so is life. Life is brutal as well. So
as part of the school experience learning how to deal
with people that maybe not well, some people are actually
out to get you all through life. And is that
part of the school experience, learning how to deal with
(01:52):
complex interactions and the foeables of other humans.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I'd like to rephrase that a bit. Some relationships can
be complicated with people in a large space. Schools can
also be incredibly warm and support of when when you're
in need. So sometimes some particular relationships can be problematic,
and you do have to develop a degree of resilience
as a human. When you think about how my own
(02:20):
family banters around the dining room table. Some of it
can be pretty harsh when you look at it from
the outside, but the reality is actually I love those
people across the table and doing anything I could to
help them and support them. And so schools have a
very similar vibe. Most of the grown ups and a
schools really like being there and want to look after
the young ones. And fostering that relationship between humans and
(02:43):
also giving people skills to know what to do when
things get hard are particularly important.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Well, you talk about banter, and that's you know, banter
is a way that you win people over, and you know,
like making someone laugh is important for friendship, and so
I guess my point is if you're talking to an
AI chatbot, what you're really eating is what you want
back and as opposed to having to win the chatbot over.
(03:13):
So while schools can be warm environments, as you say,
even in that case, you still have to be saying
something funny every couple of minutes in your circle of
friends to really move that friendship board.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Absolutely, And as with any sort of algorithm, it will
give you back what you're sort of seeking. So in
a short term, think of it like a band aid
or a moro bar at the supermarket. It might be
quite useful in the short term. It's that when you
become dependent on that type of interaction and unable to
(03:46):
engage in other interactions with real humans, that you're developing
yourself a bit of a problem. You know, there's nothing
wrong with you grabbing that Moro bar as you go
through the checkout counter because you skip lunch and you've
done it once in the last three months. But if
you're eating a chocolate bar instead of a meal every day,
suddenly you've got some nutritional issues.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, how do you deal with that as a principal?
Warm Because I imagine you've got a lot of students
at your school utilizing this technology AI to ask various
questions they have about life that they're too afraid to
ask a teacher or the parent or even a friend,
and some of that information, as we know, comes back
and it's a lot hallucinations they call a hallucination. So
(04:24):
how do you deal with that as a school principle
and someone in the education sector to talk with kids
about that that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, So the AI flane of thing is really rapidly evolving,
as you'll know. So i'd have to say in most
cases we're all playing a bit of rapid catch up
with regard to that. But in terms of conflict, in
terms of relationships, in terms of building resilience between two people's,
schools have been doing that for a long long time.
And so you remember when you and I were back
at school. I don't know how old you guys are,
(04:51):
but for me, it was very Jurassic. But you know,
we had we had counsel as, we had deans, we
had support people. In a high school space, in a
primary school space, you got to know that classroom teacher
of yours really well and they got to know you
really well so they could cull when you were off
color and the importance of that huge uman interaction. But
also in the secondary space, which is where my skill
(05:13):
set is, there's lots of work that goes in and
year nine in your turn about what a healthy relationship
looks like. Not only will another person not with digital devices,
keeping yourself safe online, what you can do when you
don't know what to do. Lots of lots of education
happens in terms of promoting options for connection when connection
is something you are seeking.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's an interesting one because people say, look, you can
have these AI chatbots or just AI in general coming
up with these hallucinations, which it's when they feed you
something that as if it's true, but it's just the
way they've gathered the information. In the larger language models,
so it comes not true. But the thing is that
can happen with humans. Humans are always giving you information
that's not true, that their straw is true. So you
(05:57):
know that, you know that is part of life as well,
learning what is true and what is not true and
finding your way through the information that's not right.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely, you've always had to You've always had to
filter your sources. You know, you're getting some feedback after
a sports game and someone saw that that was a foul,
and the other person didn't think that was a foul,
and who do you believe because they actually were both
watching the same game. So in every aspect of life,
you've got to filter the information you're given and try
to work out what is the best course of action
for you. But given that humans are pack animals and
(06:31):
we don't do well by ourselves, it's really important that
we help provide our young people with the skills to
engage in the majority with other humans. And it might
be good that you embellish what you're doing with in
the digital space, but actually your primary connection's got to
be with real people.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
And finally, Vaughn, do you think the government should be
jumping in and regulating this kind of thing a ban
for under sixteens like has been suggested for social media,
or do you think that's not practical.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Practically that's particularly challenging. You know, I'm a very proactive parent.
My wife and I very pro have parents with our
children when they were younger, and it's very, very, very
difficult to work out what they're doing every minute of
every day. And the reality is the practicalities of how
to create consequence for the provider of those social media
(07:21):
services should they have been found to be in breach
would be particularly challenging. And we can lock to overseas
jurisdictions around that, and they're all fumbling with the same thing.
The reality is what it comes down to is healthy,
strong families and people knowing what their kids are doing.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Vaughn, great to chat with you. Thank you very much.
You're at the cold front of a very interesting type
in education. But really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
For more from News Talks ed B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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