August 3, 2025 • 11 mins
The Government's proposal to eventually scrap NCEA qualifications has been met with approval from educators.
The Government's looking at phasing NCEA out entirely within five years - with level one being replaced with a literacy and numeracy test and levels two and three giving way to educational certificates.
Mt Albert Grammar headmaster Patrick Drumm joined the Afternoons team to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from newstalk ZEDB. Follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
So big changes have been proposed to replace the current
NCEA system with a new national qualifications. To chat more
about this, we are joined by Patrick drum Here's the
headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar and joins us on the line. Now, Patrick,
very good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Good afternoon. How are you.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
What are your basic thoughts on these proposed changes. I
assume you've had a chance to look at them.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We had a brief chance to scan through them all.
I was fortunate enough to be present at the actual
announcement this morning, but quite a bit of information. But look,
I think overall is a sense of excitement. I suppose
really that we've had a pretty bold decision made or announced,
let's put it that way. It's been announced in this
consultation to follow, but certainly a feeling that this is
(00:58):
a really big step in the right direction to addressing
those concerns that we've heard enough of over recent times
about in CAC Yeah, pretty exciting. Amongst myself a number
of colleagues, what are.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Your thoughts on the standalone foundational skills award at year eleven.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well, well, I think it's got mirrored on a number
of levels. Certainly a workload thing for teachers. Just we
many schools like Mana, a grammar school, had actually done
away with Level one anyway already and instigated our own,
our own basically criculam an assessment at that level to
mitigate some of the challenges that that staff have been
(01:37):
facing for a long time. But I think we're wanting
students to stay right through ideally to the end of
year thirteen, but certainly to the end of year twelve
and to hit your first formal qualification there. I think
it's called the New Zealand Certificate of Education is the
proposal there bit of a rejig of names. But to
hit that at year twelve is an incentive to keep
(01:57):
students right through to the end of year twelve. I mean,
it's that makes a lot of sense. Were certainly not
wanting to see students leaving the compulsory education sector too early.
I think the Foundational Award gives you a good solid
grounding in literacy and numeracy, so again it's it's a
precursor in many ways to that senior high higher stakes
(02:17):
qualification following in the years that follow So.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
If you fail the Foundation Skills at year eleven, do
you have to repeat or is there a pathway through?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think that's all going to have to be you know,
sort of out in the consultation process. But the Foundation Award,
I my understanding, is a big focus on literacy and numeracy.
We've actually bought that in the last last year with
these corequisite standards that students need to reach. Now it's
a separate exam they've been sitting this year to get
(02:49):
n CEA. At the moment now you need to have
passed those literacy and numeracy standards. Since it's it's created
a bit of a bit of a bit of interest
in terms of raising the bar there. So this is
nothing really radical compared to what we've just We've already
got operating now in the skills and certainly you know
if you're going to get NCAA Level three or or
(03:10):
I think it's the New Zealand Advanced Certypicate of education
is a new name. You'd hope that you'd had you
had graduates at were literate and numerate. So there's no
sort of I don't think threat to the progress progression
through the senior school with that Foundation award.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
What do you think about, you know, the introducing the
percentage marks out of one hundred alongside letter grades. Personally,
as a as a parent, I prefer that. Do you
think that's motivational for students to know exactly where they sit?
Or do you think at can just make kids give
up if they're not if they're not getting it nuanced
(03:47):
information if you know what I.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Mean, Well, it's a bit of a no brainer. Really.
The the rejig back in the early two thousands of
trying to repackage the way we reported achievement just has
created huge confusion. Certainly internationally. We would get students wanting
to progress, the universities overseas they file their report card
with the When we get universities contacting us trying to
(04:10):
understand why students have get all the ease for excellence
because and other jurisdiction, he's not excuse. So you know
this common sense needed here. Yes, you know, I suppose
there is a concern that we're going back to that
sort of pass fail fifty percent mark, but I think
that is extremely motivating for students and it just the
(04:30):
simplicity for parents and other stakeholders. We just had to
go back to a language which is universally understood and
internationally understood.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Yeah, I mean, you just want to know the truth
as a parent and arguably as a child, you just
want to know where you sit, where you need to
do better. I mean, it's not the truth. The truth
can't be offensive.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I would say, well, it's not, and I think that's
one of the problems. The best intentions of NCAA was
tried trying to recognize achievement and being very flexible about
doing that. But we all know now, and we've known
for quite a while that that the actual information we're
getting is not necessary the reality. And because it it
couldn't be compared between schools, even in the same city,
(05:12):
because chemistry in one school could be vastly different than
chemistry and another school. Because of that flexibility, you know
that that lack of trust was just exacerbated with that.
So you know, we ended up with with with where
you got your qualification was was the main incentive, and
parents have voted with their feet and there's certain schools
that are bursting at the seams because of of the
(05:33):
of you know, the the rigor or certainly the perception
of rigor in their in their curriculums.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Like your own school. Patrick, Well, what's your take on
the point about creating new subjects with industry expert opinion
on what those subjects should be? Is there in your eyes?
What are the gaps that are needed for those vocational
pathways and do you have some sort of control as
a headmaster to design those as a school.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well, I think we will, and we've got a lot
of flexibility already around those vocational subjects, and I think
absolutely working close with industry, just like we need to
work close with our tertiaries as well. I'm about getting
this these these qualifications right. I mean, school is preparation
for the next step. It's not an end in itself.
And I think that's the Sometimes we get a bit
(06:19):
carried away and our schools. Don't we about about talking
about our exam results, versteteen results, whatever it might be.
I mean, you know, but we're just really preparing students
for that next step. We must be working with those partners.
My only concern is that, you know, one of the
challenges in the current system is how the vocational standards
(06:39):
integrated with overall n CEA, and there's a lot of
confusion there. They are a standard based approach and now
we're moving back to a to a percentage. So yeah,
one of the exemplars the Minister hand it out this
morning was a template which showed automotive an engineering engineering
seventy four out of one hundred. I suppose if I
want someone fixing my card, like one hundred out of
(07:00):
one hundred, and you know, so standards based assessment reaching
US standard you can repair a car, you can land
a plane. You know, there is a lot of sense
and those those skills based vocations having a standard a
minimum standard, whereas that's not necessarily the case with building
(07:21):
knowledge over it or those other academic subjects. So how
those It's going to be a very interesting discussion around
how these vocational standards integrate within an overall certificate grade
at the end of your education. And I suppose there
would have been still an interest in looking at a
totally separate vocational pathway and supporting that, promoting it for
(07:44):
students that are very clear that they want to move
into either a technology, trades or whatever it might be
based pathway. We're still trying to probably cover the whole
range with this new qualification, and that's you know, we've
fallen into into a few problems with that in the past.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
We're talking to Patrick drumheadmaster of Mount Albert Grammer, one
of the biggest schools in the country. Are you concerned,
as some people have stated that this is going too
fast and how prepared are schools to implement such a
sort of wide scale overhaul because the year twenty twenty
six is being banded about for some of the changes.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, well, we've been waiting for this, and to say
the waiting has led to schools doing their own things anyway,
and I think we need to put a little bit
of pressure on ourselves and there certainly will be that.
I think the consultation period is very brief the turnaround here,
it's four or five weeks. But you know, there's been
a lot of groundwork that's gone in here. The professional
(08:41):
advisory group that's been working with the ministry had a
range of principles and head masses from a great diverse
selection of schools, So there's been a lot of work
and if you could argue sort of consultation obviously in
a confidential setting, and that advisory group already. You know,
we just how long can we wait for this? We've
been reviewing NCA basically for twenty five years and still
(09:05):
having got it right. So I just think we've just
got it. You know, We've got a very clear directive
from a minister who's pretty committed to this, and I
think we just got to run with it.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
What about kids that are showing excellence because you know,
we wanted people to get foundational, We want to get standards.
We want people to be able to achieve. But what
about the people that are brilliant? And we as a
country we need people are brilliant. So you know, you
talk about we talk about the foundational level year eleven.
What if you are well past that at year eleven?
Are we set up to help people young young people
(09:38):
excel if they are brilliant?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Well, I think this ability to have you know, I
think the five subjects and you're best out of one
hundred each of your mark out of five hundred, that's
going to be very motivating. I mean, I suppose it's
one of the big motivators for moving to the international qualifications,
isn't it. People in Cambridge schools doing Cambridge International Exams
they're all getting percentages. It's been a big driver for
(10:02):
success there. So I think that that you know, remember
we also have a very rigorous New Zealand scholarships and
right at the top level of our qualification system. In fact,
at the moment, it's the only common assessment in the
whole system where students turn up on the same dance
at the same exam, So you know, that's been a
big measure, a big motivator for many many students at
(10:25):
that upper end. I just think this is a fantastic
way of recognizing that, you know, maybe ninety percent in
the subject is different than eighty percent, or is different
than seventy five, and that again in itself is a
real motivator how we get there and how those marks
are finally put together. A little bit of consultation needed
on that because he will be internal assessment still part
(10:46):
of most courses, and I think that's appropriate as long
as that internal assessment is very carefully externally moderated, so
it's comparative between different schools. At the moment, it's not,
and that's what's causing the huge problem for us.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Patrick, really really good to get your thoughts. Thank you
very much. A lot of support on the text machine.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
For more from you, Talk sat B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from newstalk ZEDB. Follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
So big changes have been proposed to replace the current
NCEA system with a new national qualifications. To chat more
about this, we are joined by Patrick drum Here's the
headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar and joins us on the line. Now, Patrick,
very good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Good afternoon. How are you.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
What are your basic thoughts on these proposed changes. I
assume you've had a chance to look at them.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We had a brief chance to scan through them all.
I was fortunate enough to be present at the actual
announcement this morning, but quite a bit of information. But look,
I think overall is a sense of excitement. I suppose
really that we've had a pretty bold decision made or announced,
let's put it that way. It's been announced in this
consultation to follow, but certainly a feeling that this is
(00:58):
a really big step in the right direction to addressing
those concerns that we've heard enough of over recent times
about in CAC Yeah, pretty exciting. Amongst myself a number
of colleagues, what are.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Your thoughts on the standalone foundational skills award at year eleven.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well, well, I think it's got mirrored on a number
of levels. Certainly a workload thing for teachers. Just we
many schools like Mana, a grammar school, had actually done
away with Level one anyway already and instigated our own,
our own basically criculam an assessment at that level to
mitigate some of the challenges that that staff have been
(01:37):
facing for a long time. But I think we're wanting
students to stay right through ideally to the end of
year thirteen, but certainly to the end of year twelve
and to hit your first formal qualification there. I think
it's called the New Zealand Certificate of Education is the
proposal there bit of a rejig of names. But to
hit that at year twelve is an incentive to keep
(01:57):
students right through to the end of year twelve. I mean,
it's that makes a lot of sense. Were certainly not
wanting to see students leaving the compulsory education sector too early.
I think the Foundational Award gives you a good solid
grounding in literacy and numeracy, so again it's it's a
precursor in many ways to that senior high higher stakes
(02:17):
qualification following in the years that follow So.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
If you fail the Foundation Skills at year eleven, do
you have to repeat or is there a pathway through?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think that's all going to have to be you know,
sort of out in the consultation process. But the Foundation Award,
I my understanding, is a big focus on literacy and numeracy.
We've actually bought that in the last last year with
these corequisite standards that students need to reach. Now it's
a separate exam they've been sitting this year to get
(02:49):
n CEA. At the moment now you need to have
passed those literacy and numeracy standards. Since it's it's created
a bit of a bit of a bit of interest
in terms of raising the bar there. So this is
nothing really radical compared to what we've just We've already
got operating now in the skills and certainly you know
if you're going to get NCAA Level three or or
(03:10):
I think it's the New Zealand Advanced Certypicate of education
is a new name. You'd hope that you'd had you
had graduates at were literate and numerate. So there's no
sort of I don't think threat to the progress progression
through the senior school with that Foundation award.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
What do you think about, you know, the introducing the
percentage marks out of one hundred alongside letter grades. Personally,
as a as a parent, I prefer that. Do you
think that's motivational for students to know exactly where they sit?
Or do you think at can just make kids give
up if they're not if they're not getting it nuanced
(03:47):
information if you know what I.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Mean, Well, it's a bit of a no brainer. Really.
The the rejig back in the early two thousands of
trying to repackage the way we reported achievement just has
created huge confusion. Certainly internationally. We would get students wanting
to progress, the universities overseas they file their report card
with the When we get universities contacting us trying to
(04:10):
understand why students have get all the ease for excellence
because and other jurisdiction, he's not excuse. So you know
this common sense needed here. Yes, you know, I suppose
there is a concern that we're going back to that
sort of pass fail fifty percent mark, but I think
that is extremely motivating for students and it just the
(04:30):
simplicity for parents and other stakeholders. We just had to
go back to a language which is universally understood and
internationally understood.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Yeah, I mean, you just want to know the truth
as a parent and arguably as a child, you just
want to know where you sit, where you need to
do better. I mean, it's not the truth. The truth
can't be offensive.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I would say, well, it's not, and I think that's
one of the problems. The best intentions of NCAA was
tried trying to recognize achievement and being very flexible about
doing that. But we all know now, and we've known
for quite a while that that the actual information we're
getting is not necessary the reality. And because it it
couldn't be compared between schools, even in the same city,
(05:12):
because chemistry in one school could be vastly different than
chemistry and another school. Because of that flexibility, you know
that that lack of trust was just exacerbated with that.
So you know, we ended up with with with where
you got your qualification was was the main incentive, and
parents have voted with their feet and there's certain schools
that are bursting at the seams because of of the
(05:33):
of you know, the the rigor or certainly the perception
of rigor in their in their curriculums.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Like your own school. Patrick, Well, what's your take on
the point about creating new subjects with industry expert opinion
on what those subjects should be? Is there in your eyes?
What are the gaps that are needed for those vocational
pathways and do you have some sort of control as
a headmaster to design those as a school.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well, I think we will, and we've got a lot
of flexibility already around those vocational subjects, and I think
absolutely working close with industry, just like we need to
work close with our tertiaries as well. I'm about getting
this these these qualifications right. I mean, school is preparation
for the next step. It's not an end in itself.
And I think that's the Sometimes we get a bit
(06:19):
carried away and our schools. Don't we about about talking
about our exam results, versteteen results, whatever it might be.
I mean, you know, but we're just really preparing students
for that next step. We must be working with those partners.
My only concern is that, you know, one of the
challenges in the current system is how the vocational standards
(06:39):
integrated with overall n CEA, and there's a lot of
confusion there. They are a standard based approach and now
we're moving back to a to a percentage. So yeah,
one of the exemplars the Minister hand it out this
morning was a template which showed automotive an engineering engineering
seventy four out of one hundred. I suppose if I
want someone fixing my card, like one hundred out of
(07:00):
one hundred, and you know, so standards based assessment reaching
US standard you can repair a car, you can land
a plane. You know, there is a lot of sense
and those those skills based vocations having a standard a
minimum standard, whereas that's not necessarily the case with building
(07:21):
knowledge over it or those other academic subjects. So how
those It's going to be a very interesting discussion around
how these vocational standards integrate within an overall certificate grade
at the end of your education. And I suppose there
would have been still an interest in looking at a
totally separate vocational pathway and supporting that, promoting it for
(07:44):
students that are very clear that they want to move
into either a technology, trades or whatever it might be
based pathway. We're still trying to probably cover the whole
range with this new qualification, and that's you know, we've
fallen into into a few problems with that in the past.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
We're talking to Patrick drumheadmaster of Mount Albert Grammer, one
of the biggest schools in the country. Are you concerned,
as some people have stated that this is going too
fast and how prepared are schools to implement such a
sort of wide scale overhaul because the year twenty twenty
six is being banded about for some of the changes.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, well, we've been waiting for this, and to say
the waiting has led to schools doing their own things anyway,
and I think we need to put a little bit
of pressure on ourselves and there certainly will be that.
I think the consultation period is very brief the turnaround here,
it's four or five weeks. But you know, there's been
a lot of groundwork that's gone in here. The professional
(08:41):
advisory group that's been working with the ministry had a
range of principles and head masses from a great diverse
selection of schools, So there's been a lot of work
and if you could argue sort of consultation obviously in
a confidential setting, and that advisory group already. You know,
we just how long can we wait for this? We've
been reviewing NCA basically for twenty five years and still
(09:05):
having got it right. So I just think we've just
got it. You know, We've got a very clear directive
from a minister who's pretty committed to this, and I
think we just got to run with it.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
What about kids that are showing excellence because you know,
we wanted people to get foundational, We want to get standards.
We want people to be able to achieve. But what
about the people that are brilliant? And we as a
country we need people are brilliant. So you know, you
talk about we talk about the foundational level year eleven.
What if you are well past that at year eleven?
Are we set up to help people young young people
(09:38):
excel if they are brilliant?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Well, I think this ability to have you know, I
think the five subjects and you're best out of one
hundred each of your mark out of five hundred, that's
going to be very motivating. I mean, I suppose it's
one of the big motivators for moving to the international qualifications,
isn't it. People in Cambridge schools doing Cambridge International Exams
they're all getting percentages. It's been a big driver for
(10:02):
success there. So I think that that you know, remember
we also have a very rigorous New Zealand scholarships and
right at the top level of our qualification system. In fact,
at the moment, it's the only common assessment in the
whole system where students turn up on the same dance
at the same exam, So you know, that's been a
big measure, a big motivator for many many students at
(10:25):
that upper end. I just think this is a fantastic
way of recognizing that, you know, maybe ninety percent in
the subject is different than eighty percent, or is different
than seventy five, and that again in itself is a
real motivator how we get there and how those marks
are finally put together. A little bit of consultation needed
on that because he will be internal assessment still part
(10:46):
of most courses, and I think that's appropriate as long
as that internal assessment is very carefully externally moderated, so
it's comparative between different schools. At the moment, it's not,
and that's what's causing the huge problem for us.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Patrick, really really good to get your thoughts. Thank you
very much. A lot of support on the text machine.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
For more from you, Talk sat B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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