August 21, 2025 • 11 mins
International rugby referee Ben O’Keeffe's spent years playing a key role in the sport - and he's seen the best and the worst the game's had to offer.
Referee abuse and poor sideline behaviour are long-standing issues in New Zealand sport, and O’Keeffe says it's one of the tougher parts of the role.
He joined the Afternoons team to explain further.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Ben O'Keefe is New Zealand's most experienced rugby union referee,
having officiated a record breaking two hundred and thirty four
first class games. He is yeah incredible record. He is
the first New Zealand official to referee fifty international Test
matches and is the only New Zealand referee to have
been in the middle for more than one hundred Super
Rugby games. And he joins us on the line. Now, Ben,
(00:38):
get out of you.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Goo guys, Hey, Matt, Hey Tyler, how are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Thanks for talking to us. You're a bit of a
heart throb as well.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Actually I've watched a few games and you've very popular
with the ladies, so you know, do do with that
as you will. Hey, how do you raise rise through
the ranks to become an international referee? How does it
start and how do you get there to the very top?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, it's a little bit of luck and a little
bit of hard work involved. It's very similar to players.
I think in any sport, you obviously fall in love
with the sport that that you're involved in. And for me,
I played rugby when I was younger. I grew up
at went to Mobile Boys and you know, love throwing
the footy around. But when I went to university and
guys sort of wanted to be all backs, they sort
of their skills took over, and I just decided I
(01:23):
wanted to stay involved in the game, and I just
keep referring. So and you go through the levels of
club rugby, juniors, seniors, bit of NPC, and then you know,
if you're lucky enough and you know you get on
the right track, you can be given contracts to do
do Super Rugby international games. So I sort of you
sort of just follow that player path and you're very
very grateful to do it.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
So how many reps, you know, how many games you
have to do before you get get tapped or is
it just the people out there looking for referee talent.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah, so there's always this coaches and assessors. Obviously a
lot of feedback from from coaches of games and teams
as well. So I got a pretty good reputation down
at Otago referring some good footed down there, and luckily
I was out of you know, do my time down
there a bit of learning and then obviously got pushed
up to the high ranks, which was which I'm very
fortunate for.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Do you love it and what are the best parts?
If you do?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Oh, look, I absolutely love it. I love I love
the challenge of, you know, preparing for a Test match
and you know, the Friday night at seven thirty for
a Saturday game, not knowing what the next day is
going to bring, but knowing that, loock, I've prepared as
much as I can. It's going to be great. Let's
go out there. I love the anthems. I love just
before I blow the whistle. There's always a really good
stadium eentum that I've got going on in the stadium
(02:36):
at the time. I'm in the middle of the field
and I'm ready to go in and I love that.
And I also love the aftermath. I think, you know,
reflecting on a game that's gone well is an amazing feeling,
and having you know, friends in the stadium watching it
is pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'm getting goosebumps here and you say that, Ben, wait,
do you have it?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Sorry? You go, Matt.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I was just going to say, what are the tough parts? Then?
You know, those are the great parts. What are the
tough parts been?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Well? I think one of the tough thing is that,
like my personality, like I want to be good, I
want to be perfect, and it's just a really hard job.
And it is my job. It's a really hard job
to actually do well and constantly because like I'm obviously
constantly reviewing my games, I've got coaches review and my
game's assister to review of my games. And then you
feel like you in the public reviews your games as well,
So it's really hard to and you can never actually
(03:19):
get everyone sort of accepting that you've done a good job.
So that's a big challenge. I think the challenge now
that we're seeing a lot of and we've seen in
the media too, is some of probably the abuse is
happening on the sidelines, not just in international games. It's
certainly just in the public and the community games we have,
and then extends out to social media as well, which
I think is a big problem. In every sport.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
There pressure that you undoubtedly feel as a referee, particularly
at the higher levels. Ben I take it there, your
fellow referees, other colleagues feel that pressure as well. How
do you deal with that, particularly in the modern age
where you are seeing that feedback and abuse coming out,
you're not just from the sidelines but online. How do
you know, when you get home after a big game
(04:00):
like that, how do you process that stuff?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It is difficult. I think a lot of the pressure
and we all do feel the same, you know, we
want to do a good job. So the way I
deal with a lot of pressure early on in the
week is to prepare really well for a game, so physically,
mentally and on the teams, and then I know I'm confident,
so I can go in the game knowing that, look,
I've done all I can. I'm going to do a
good job. Even then, you can make some mistakes, so
I do a good review after the game, and it's
(04:23):
all about learning. So that's that's kind of the learning
cycle I do. So week in week out, I'm getting better.
I try and close it there. But certainly some of
the stuff that you see in the media, you know,
there's only so much you can try and ignore it,
and I really do. I try not to read the
headlines or even the comments when games don't go well.
I even have to do that when the games do
(04:43):
go well, because you know you can't just be searching
for all the good things too. So it's difficult. It's
been taking. It's taken a lot of years probably just
to be able to get used to it a lot better.
So for someone at myself okay, been through a lot
of it, that's a little bit easier to deal with.
But I do feel for a lot of young referees,
not just in rugby but all sports who actually who
(05:04):
aren't immune to this yet and they're going through it
now at community levels but also starting in the NBC
sup Brogian international levels.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Do you think it's getting worse that that level of
abuse that that referees get because you know, as I
was saying in the intro to this, if we don't
have refs, then there's no game. You know, there's no
ref there's no game. So if it's getting worse out
of there, that that's not good for for rugby as
a whole.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I think we're just adapting to what everyone's getting used
to over the last or the decade, with you know,
access to social media, access to things like fantasy rugula,
people are actually you know, in a good way, getting
involved in sports a lot more online. You know, it's
it's making it more accessible to people globally, and that's
what I love. You know, people who are a motive,
are passionate, who love the game. That's that's exactly what
(05:50):
we want to try and bring up because there is
an entertainment sport. So I think in some ways we're
we're sort of trying to catch up with that in
a way of how okay, we've got access to all
this great media around sport, but how do we how
to just temper it to make sure we protect our
referees Because as I I heard you guys saying before that,
you know, it's all very well doing it on the
(06:12):
TV and yelling at a player or yelling at at
a referee, but you know, as soon as it starts
transcending down to the rugby fields and the communit levels,
I think that's where it's quite quite poor.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
So do you think some work could be done around
just our culture of blaming the ref Is there some
kind of education that could get out there, some kind
of information that people know. I mean, it's great you
you being in the public eye and doing the story
with Shane Carrion, Thanks for talking to us today, because
then you actually humanize the referee rather than just being
(06:41):
the focus of people's anger because their team isn't doing
as well as they want. If you see what I mean,
you think if you've thought about how the culture could
be changed.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I think there's definitely there needs to be a culture change,
not just in New Zealand. This is a global problem
and not just in rugby. So it's all sports, isn't it.
So I'm big one trying to use my position to
just make people more aware. I know there's companies like
or campaigns an Auckland like Act of Love the Games
that that campaign trying to actually make you know, people not
(07:10):
just support referees, but support you know, kids and players,
because you're right, if we don't have we don't have referees,
we don't have the game. But also if we don't
have you kids enjoy the game as well, we don't
have the game either. So there's definitely a cultural thing.
I think we're seeing a lot more I guess stories
in the media because there is more awareness of it.
So I think in a roundab way, right, that is
that is a good thing. So people are talking about
(07:30):
it more. There are headlines more because people are saying, actually, well,
this isn't right. You know, there's we can we can
love the game, we can support the game, but I
think it does cross the line when you know we're
trying to you know, blame blame referees for it, and
especially if we're not willing to give it a go.
So I think that's it's a tough job and a
lot of volunteers out there do it because they love
the game too, So I just think we should we
(07:52):
should always take that into cant as well.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, do you do you ever blame the ref when
you're watching a game?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
No, no, no, never, never, I promise you, I'd say,
because I know what it's like. But but i'd also
know what it's like, you know, playing sports where you
know you can get a little bit passionate about you know,
call that's been made. So yeah, you know, there's nothing
wrong with that, But it's just it's just what you
do outside of that. It's what you do when you
know you're sitting on your phone, you're thinking about making
(08:18):
a comment on a on a headline or to someone's
personal page. I think that's when you know, that's where
the culture I think should stopped there. But certainly you know,
we want to love. That's about knowing with withdraw the line.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
And did you feel when you're coming up because obviously
now you're you're out on the field, you're you know,
you're at the top of the game, so actually on
the field, you're you know, security everywhere.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
But did you ever have issues when you.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Were coming up through the and the and the absolute
grassroots of the game where you felt unsafe, where your
you know, your physical safety was that threat.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It is interesting like after every SUPERUGBIA or test match,
you don't always get security to walk you off the field, right,
but when they do walk you off, you're like, Okay,
they must have been something they're having in the game.
But it's always a good you look, your reviews wore
been done. But now look, coming up, I thought, I
think we were quite fortunate. You know, I certainly believe that.
(09:14):
You know, I grew up with as a junior, with
senior referees who, you know, they didn't have social media
on their phone, you know, if they didn't want to
read about the game, they just didn't read the newspaper yea.
So it was almost like I've been able to bridge
that and seeing how it's changed where now as I've
come up, you know, every every junior referee has access
to a phone now, every junior referee. And also I'm
(09:35):
in the exposure that that rugby games get isn't just
international anymore. You know. Club Rugby has you know, social
media pages across New Zealand as well, so there's a
lot more access to to comments and two things like that.
So I think I think growing up I was, I
was quite lucky. But but suming I can because because
I've come through so recently i've been, I can actually
(09:56):
I'm connected to how bad it can be right now.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, what's your thoughts on the technology side of things?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Ben?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Do you think that helps it all with that culture
change that has needed to see that you've got that
technology to rely on or it's always going to come
down to the human elements of it and the reef
is there to do the best job they can and
people need to know that even if they do get passionate.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I think I think the way that technology use is
used at the moment is pretty good. So we just
need to make sure that we're doing it in a
way that is actually enhancing the game, so it's still
entertaining the game in terms of keeping the speed going,
making it entertaining for people, making sure that we're accurate,
but without you taking too long to do it. So
you know, the fact that we use the TMO now,
(10:39):
the fact that we you know, have slow motion replays,
as long as we getting the decisions right within a
quick timeframe, and I think that's fine. I think you know,
we're working constantly, as referring teams in the background to
make sure that we're not using, for example, the TMO
just to get everything perfect a good element of not
the game as well. But if we can do it
quickly so that we make the right decision, for example,
(11:01):
the correct driving score, then I think you know, we're
happy with that. There can be the overuse of technology potentially,
and that's potentially what we see in maybe sports overseas,
where you know, the games are four or five hours.
I don't think we want that in New Zealand, want
a fast game. But if we're wanting that in New Zealand,
we're saying that, look, this is what we don't want
that five our game, then you're going to have an
element of there will be some mistakes. I think we
(11:22):
have to understand that as a public Yeah, well.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Tell you what.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
We're talking to Ben o keith, international rugby referee and
there's a lot of love for you coming through on
the text machine, mate, So you know, social media can
be tough, but and so can our text machine actually,
but there's a lot of love coming through, so you know,
I hope you know that people appreciate what you do.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
That's awesome. I love it. It's really awesome to hear.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, been awesome to chat with you. Thank you very
much and hopefully we'll catch up again soon.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Awestome guys, thanks very much. Go well.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That that is being O'Keefe international rugby referee and a
great man to boot as well.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
For more from News Talks d B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Ben O'Keefe is New Zealand's most experienced rugby union referee,
having officiated a record breaking two hundred and thirty four
first class games. He is yeah incredible record. He is
the first New Zealand official to referee fifty international Test
matches and is the only New Zealand referee to have
been in the middle for more than one hundred Super
Rugby games. And he joins us on the line. Now, Ben,
(00:38):
get out of you.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Goo guys, Hey, Matt, Hey Tyler, how are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Thanks for talking to us. You're a bit of a
heart throb as well.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Actually I've watched a few games and you've very popular
with the ladies, so you know, do do with that
as you will. Hey, how do you raise rise through
the ranks to become an international referee? How does it
start and how do you get there to the very top?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, it's a little bit of luck and a little
bit of hard work involved. It's very similar to players.
I think in any sport, you obviously fall in love
with the sport that that you're involved in. And for me,
I played rugby when I was younger. I grew up
at went to Mobile Boys and you know, love throwing
the footy around. But when I went to university and
guys sort of wanted to be all backs, they sort
of their skills took over, and I just decided I
(01:23):
wanted to stay involved in the game, and I just
keep referring. So and you go through the levels of
club rugby, juniors, seniors, bit of NPC, and then you know,
if you're lucky enough and you know you get on
the right track, you can be given contracts to do
do Super Rugby international games. So I sort of you
sort of just follow that player path and you're very
very grateful to do it.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
So how many reps, you know, how many games you
have to do before you get get tapped or is
it just the people out there looking for referee talent.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah, so there's always this coaches and assessors. Obviously a
lot of feedback from from coaches of games and teams
as well. So I got a pretty good reputation down
at Otago referring some good footed down there, and luckily
I was out of you know, do my time down
there a bit of learning and then obviously got pushed
up to the high ranks, which was which I'm very
fortunate for.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Do you love it and what are the best parts?
If you do?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Oh, look, I absolutely love it. I love I love
the challenge of, you know, preparing for a Test match
and you know, the Friday night at seven thirty for
a Saturday game, not knowing what the next day is
going to bring, but knowing that, loock, I've prepared as
much as I can. It's going to be great. Let's
go out there. I love the anthems. I love just
before I blow the whistle. There's always a really good
stadium eentum that I've got going on in the stadium
(02:36):
at the time. I'm in the middle of the field
and I'm ready to go in and I love that.
And I also love the aftermath. I think, you know,
reflecting on a game that's gone well is an amazing feeling,
and having you know, friends in the stadium watching it
is pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'm getting goosebumps here and you say that, Ben, wait,
do you have it?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Sorry? You go, Matt.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I was just going to say, what are the tough parts? Then?
You know, those are the great parts. What are the
tough parts been?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Well? I think one of the tough thing is that,
like my personality, like I want to be good, I
want to be perfect, and it's just a really hard job.
And it is my job. It's a really hard job
to actually do well and constantly because like I'm obviously
constantly reviewing my games, I've got coaches review and my
game's assister to review of my games. And then you
feel like you in the public reviews your games as well,
So it's really hard to and you can never actually
(03:19):
get everyone sort of accepting that you've done a good job.
So that's a big challenge. I think the challenge now
that we're seeing a lot of and we've seen in
the media too, is some of probably the abuse is
happening on the sidelines, not just in international games. It's
certainly just in the public and the community games we have,
and then extends out to social media as well, which
I think is a big problem. In every sport.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
There pressure that you undoubtedly feel as a referee, particularly
at the higher levels. Ben I take it there, your
fellow referees, other colleagues feel that pressure as well. How
do you deal with that, particularly in the modern age
where you are seeing that feedback and abuse coming out,
you're not just from the sidelines but online. How do
you know, when you get home after a big game
(04:00):
like that, how do you process that stuff?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It is difficult. I think a lot of the pressure
and we all do feel the same, you know, we
want to do a good job. So the way I
deal with a lot of pressure early on in the
week is to prepare really well for a game, so physically,
mentally and on the teams, and then I know I'm confident,
so I can go in the game knowing that, look,
I've done all I can. I'm going to do a
good job. Even then, you can make some mistakes, so
I do a good review after the game, and it's
(04:23):
all about learning. So that's that's kind of the learning
cycle I do. So week in week out, I'm getting better.
I try and close it there. But certainly some of
the stuff that you see in the media, you know,
there's only so much you can try and ignore it,
and I really do. I try not to read the
headlines or even the comments when games don't go well.
I even have to do that when the games do
(04:43):
go well, because you know you can't just be searching
for all the good things too. So it's difficult. It's
been taking. It's taken a lot of years probably just
to be able to get used to it a lot better.
So for someone at myself okay, been through a lot
of it, that's a little bit easier to deal with.
But I do feel for a lot of young referees,
not just in rugby but all sports who actually who
(05:04):
aren't immune to this yet and they're going through it
now at community levels but also starting in the NBC
sup Brogian international levels.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Do you think it's getting worse that that level of
abuse that that referees get because you know, as I
was saying in the intro to this, if we don't
have refs, then there's no game. You know, there's no
ref there's no game. So if it's getting worse out
of there, that that's not good for for rugby as
a whole.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I think we're just adapting to what everyone's getting used
to over the last or the decade, with you know,
access to social media, access to things like fantasy rugula,
people are actually you know, in a good way, getting
involved in sports a lot more online. You know, it's
it's making it more accessible to people globally, and that's
what I love. You know, people who are a motive,
are passionate, who love the game. That's that's exactly what
(05:50):
we want to try and bring up because there is
an entertainment sport. So I think in some ways we're
we're sort of trying to catch up with that in
a way of how okay, we've got access to all
this great media around sport, but how do we how
to just temper it to make sure we protect our
referees Because as I I heard you guys saying before that,
you know, it's all very well doing it on the
(06:12):
TV and yelling at a player or yelling at at
a referee, but you know, as soon as it starts
transcending down to the rugby fields and the communit levels,
I think that's where it's quite quite poor.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
So do you think some work could be done around
just our culture of blaming the ref Is there some
kind of education that could get out there, some kind
of information that people know. I mean, it's great you
you being in the public eye and doing the story
with Shane Carrion, Thanks for talking to us today, because
then you actually humanize the referee rather than just being
(06:41):
the focus of people's anger because their team isn't doing
as well as they want. If you see what I mean,
you think if you've thought about how the culture could
be changed.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I think there's definitely there needs to be a culture change,
not just in New Zealand. This is a global problem
and not just in rugby. So it's all sports, isn't it.
So I'm big one trying to use my position to
just make people more aware. I know there's companies like
or campaigns an Auckland like Act of Love the Games
that that campaign trying to actually make you know, people not
(07:10):
just support referees, but support you know, kids and players,
because you're right, if we don't have we don't have referees,
we don't have the game. But also if we don't
have you kids enjoy the game as well, we don't
have the game either. So there's definitely a cultural thing.
I think we're seeing a lot more I guess stories
in the media because there is more awareness of it.
So I think in a roundab way, right, that is
that is a good thing. So people are talking about
(07:30):
it more. There are headlines more because people are saying, actually, well,
this isn't right. You know, there's we can we can
love the game, we can support the game, but I
think it does cross the line when you know we're
trying to you know, blame blame referees for it, and
especially if we're not willing to give it a go.
So I think that's it's a tough job and a
lot of volunteers out there do it because they love
the game too, So I just think we should we
(07:52):
should always take that into cant as well.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, do you do you ever blame the ref when
you're watching a game?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
No, no, no, never, never, I promise you, I'd say,
because I know what it's like. But but i'd also
know what it's like, you know, playing sports where you
know you can get a little bit passionate about you know,
call that's been made. So yeah, you know, there's nothing
wrong with that, But it's just it's just what you
do outside of that. It's what you do when you
know you're sitting on your phone, you're thinking about making
(08:18):
a comment on a on a headline or to someone's
personal page. I think that's when you know, that's where
the culture I think should stopped there. But certainly you know,
we want to love. That's about knowing with withdraw the line.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
And did you feel when you're coming up because obviously
now you're you're out on the field, you're you know,
you're at the top of the game, so actually on
the field, you're you know, security everywhere.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
But did you ever have issues when you.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Were coming up through the and the and the absolute
grassroots of the game where you felt unsafe, where your
you know, your physical safety was that threat.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It is interesting like after every SUPERUGBIA or test match,
you don't always get security to walk you off the field, right,
but when they do walk you off, you're like, Okay,
they must have been something they're having in the game.
But it's always a good you look, your reviews wore
been done. But now look, coming up, I thought, I
think we were quite fortunate. You know, I certainly believe that.
(09:14):
You know, I grew up with as a junior, with
senior referees who, you know, they didn't have social media
on their phone, you know, if they didn't want to
read about the game, they just didn't read the newspaper yea.
So it was almost like I've been able to bridge
that and seeing how it's changed where now as I've
come up, you know, every every junior referee has access
to a phone now, every junior referee. And also I'm
(09:35):
in the exposure that that rugby games get isn't just
international anymore. You know. Club Rugby has you know, social
media pages across New Zealand as well, so there's a
lot more access to to comments and two things like that.
So I think I think growing up I was, I
was quite lucky. But but suming I can because because
I've come through so recently i've been, I can actually
(09:56):
I'm connected to how bad it can be right now.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, what's your thoughts on the technology side of things?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Ben?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Do you think that helps it all with that culture
change that has needed to see that you've got that
technology to rely on or it's always going to come
down to the human elements of it and the reef
is there to do the best job they can and
people need to know that even if they do get passionate.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I think I think the way that technology use is
used at the moment is pretty good. So we just
need to make sure that we're doing it in a
way that is actually enhancing the game, so it's still
entertaining the game in terms of keeping the speed going,
making it entertaining for people, making sure that we're accurate,
but without you taking too long to do it. So
you know, the fact that we use the TMO now,
(10:39):
the fact that we you know, have slow motion replays,
as long as we getting the decisions right within a
quick timeframe, and I think that's fine. I think you know,
we're working constantly, as referring teams in the background to
make sure that we're not using, for example, the TMO
just to get everything perfect a good element of not
the game as well. But if we can do it
quickly so that we make the right decision, for example,
(11:01):
the correct driving score, then I think you know, we're
happy with that. There can be the overuse of technology potentially,
and that's potentially what we see in maybe sports overseas,
where you know, the games are four or five hours.
I don't think we want that in New Zealand, want
a fast game. But if we're wanting that in New Zealand,
we're saying that, look, this is what we don't want
that five our game, then you're going to have an
element of there will be some mistakes. I think we
(11:22):
have to understand that as a public Yeah, well.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Tell you what.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
We're talking to Ben o keith, international rugby referee and
there's a lot of love for you coming through on
the text machine, mate, So you know, social media can
be tough, but and so can our text machine actually,
but there's a lot of love coming through, so you know,
I hope you know that people appreciate what you do.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
That's awesome. I love it. It's really awesome to hear.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, been awesome to chat with you. Thank you very
much and hopefully we'll catch up again soon.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Awestome guys, thanks very much. Go well.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That that is being O'Keefe international rugby referee and a
great man to boot as well.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
For more from News Talks d B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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