August 21, 2025 • 11 mins
One expert has opened up about the process of becoming a referee - and revealed how people can work their way up the ranks.
With flare-ups and poor sideline behaviour remaining a persistent issue, the President of the Auckland Rugby Referees Association explained the importance of proper training.
Rob Harmon joined the Afternoons team to explain further.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now in studio. It's a privilege to be joined by
Rob Harmon. He is the president of the Auckland Rugby
Referees Association and is with us live.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Get a Rob men Tyler, how are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
So you know you what level of referees are does
the Auckland Rugby Referees Association oversea?
Speaker 5 (00:37):
So we take care of all rugby within our provincial unions.
So there are twenty six twenty seven provincial unions throughout
New Zealand.
Speaker 6 (00:46):
So for Auckland in particular.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
We're basically from Manekau in the south all up through
central Auckland and out towards sort of Henderson Way.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Right, yeah, But like I mean what levels.
Speaker 5 (00:59):
We do everything from school boys right up to premiere
grades and we and then from the pathway from there
go into a regional basis in our referees will referee
anywhere from sort of the top I guess the top
third of the North Island.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
So basically all officiating comes through you guys to a
certain extent. Correct, that's in rugby union and so if
you if you're a if you're a you know, a
person that loves rugby and and and you're thinking, well,
I want to get into being a referee, how do
you go about that?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Who do you who do you approach and how do
you follow that path?
Speaker 5 (01:37):
It's it's largely up to the to the to the
person obviously, to to take the action. There's in all
the pus around New Zealand, there is either a referees
association or the rugby union. The local rugby union themselves
look after the referees, so it's often a case of
contacting them first, either via socials or give them a
(02:00):
call or an email. But it can be just as
easy to rock up on a Saturday and tap someone
on the on the back who's got a uniform on
and say how do I get on with it?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Right?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (02:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:11):
And so if you want to be a referee, you
know people talk about training, right, so there's a lot
to it. You know, you no, no, you need to
obviously know the rule book off by heart, right, but
you also know you have to know where to stand
at a certain point. You know you have to run
back for the conversion. There's a whole lot of refereeing
skills in there that you know, if you're just playing
the game, you don't you know, the referee alway seems
(02:31):
to be in the right place, but you don't know
that stuff. So is there a training program once you
get into the into the path.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I would struggle to think that
any referee knows the law book one hundred percent, to
be perfectly honest. We try our best, but no that
there are definitely training you know, training avenues available, of
course there are typically if you're a first year or
a novice referee, you get put in a group with
(02:59):
your peers. In Auckland, we have meetings every Monday night
six months of the year to try and up school
our new me and also the rest of the refereeing cohort.
If you're a first year referee, you can expect to
be assistant referee or touch judging pretty early on in
the piece, which is a is a nice easy way
(03:20):
to get involved. Or at the moment we're heading into
seven season as well, so that's that's also a light
introduction to the to the sport in the vocation and
then you know, once you have there's there's not really
any tests or anything to pass in order to get
onto the field.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
It's just you know when you're ready, you're ready, and
hope you're ready sooner rather than later, and out you go.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Do you what level do you have to reach before
you get paid?
Speaker 5 (03:49):
You have to be a So some French re unions
in New Zealand will pay your your mileage and and
and bits and pieces like that.
Speaker 6 (03:58):
But to actually be.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Be paid to referee, you're pretty much an MPC referee, right.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
So you know when someone is getting angry at the
sideline at a referee in rugby, that person is there,
you know, of their own volition, out of the goodness
of their heart, because they believe in the game. And
so you're you're not you're not abusing someone that's getting
rich off the back of this.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Correct, In Auckland we actually pay a subscription, so we
pay fifty dollars to referee, so whi which isn't the
similar to other places around around New Zealand. So yeah,
so other sports in New Zealand you will pay, will
pay a match payment of some sort.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
But you're very really in rugby union.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And what's the situation now, Rob when you look at
the spectators on the sideline. Do you think that abuse
or anger is getting worse or there are more of
those flare ups that we're seen in particular grassroots games.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
It's hard to say it's I think it's it's it's
it's regional. I think there's there's an undertone of that
sort of stuff has always been there. I'm fortunate I've
refreed for over twenty years. I've I've only had one
or two sort of instances where i can think to myself, yeah,
that was actually quite bad, not physical or anything, but
(05:19):
just ones that stick in the in the back of
my mind. But I think there's a bunch of reasons
that are completely outside of rugby's control which is creating
this behavior. So it's it's hard to it's hard for
for for me as a as a referee up running
out there on a Saturday, or my provincial union and
(05:40):
my Referee Association, or New Zealand Rugby for that matter,
to to actually, you know, do something that's really tangible
that's going to stomp it out once and for all.
Speaker 6 (05:50):
It's it's an impossibility.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Really, it's I think it's unfortunately, it's just something that
we need to minimize as much as we can do.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Get do you any you know, do you look into
conflict management training, how to diffuse situations or is any
Is that something that you guys discuss in your in
your Monday weekend.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Look, we we do. We do a
lot of work on the management of the game. So,
how to diffuse situations, how to talk to players in
particular instances, what to do when you know, if you
if you lose control of games. You know, sometimes sometimes
that does happen, hopefully it doesn't so and and and
(06:30):
some of the top guys looking at your body language
and and and.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
And other things like that.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
So yeah, yeah, it is available to us, definitely. Obviously
we're just waiting on the responses from the from the
players to to be able to act in it.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Right, there's a teachs tier from muzz it sees get
a rob. Is there a fitness test to be a ref.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
There is, but there's but not at not at the
lower grade. So the New Zealand Rugby brought out a
new Community Rugby framework this year and it's in what
the basis of that was it was to standardize levels
of referee capability across New Zealand. So if you want
(07:13):
to be basically a Premiere club referee or a verse
fifteen schools referee or higher, you do need to do
a fitness test and pass it in a reasonable way.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Because how many you do? Like what you must do
nine ten k's in the game, would you?
Speaker 6 (07:29):
Uh no, it's probably a bit less than that.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
Yeah, so I should have said more, should than I
But yeah, I think between you know, probably between six
seven k's.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Is that's up there.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
But they're also shuttles, right you know, so you know,
like as I was saying before, when you've got to
sprint over for the conversion, that you've got to get
there at pace, don't you.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
One hundred percent if anyone wants, If anyone out there
wants to give it a go, it's called the Bronco test,
So you can readily available on. All you need is
four cones and sixty meters in your way.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well what struck me when I did this event with you?
When was there was that last Saturday? No Saturda just gone,
Saturday just gone. Yeah, a lot of water under the
bridge between Yeah, yeah, it was a big night.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Must have been a big night.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
We've only just stopped celebrating that night.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
But what I did notice was it was a great community.
You know, you guys have all got a great sense
of humor and you know you you all work together,
you all know each other, so that that's a big
part of it, isn't it. So you know, people that
got into refereeing, there is that that that community that
that you can get involved in.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Absolutely a massive amount of camaraderie and uh and you
know the family the family spirit a few of them
is as well, But I guess that's the same with
every with everything right you you you you you make
friends with the people who are into the same stuff
as you. We we go out there and do a
job which can be pretty challenging at times. So you
need to celebrate the winds and celebrate the losses too,
(08:52):
and the draws and the and the draws the unfortunately
few to few too many of them at the at
the moment. But yeah, I mean the camaraderie within within
our association is not indifferent to any rugby club or
sports club or any other environment like that around New Zealand.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
We all know we get along with your oll and
trihast for what we do.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Good on you, Yeah, is there a bit of extra
assistance or you know, the new element here is social media.
So with the young guys, particularly if they're moving up
into more of the professional level, what is the.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Message to them.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Do you tell the younger guys maybe it's best to
say off social media or is there some training around
that element?
Speaker 6 (09:32):
No, there isn't.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
I mean social media. And I was hearing what Ben
was saying before. And you know, Ben's an outstanding ambassador
for for for referring but also for New Zealand and
general is one of the Wood's best referees at the moment.
You know, social media. I mean, if you just don't
read what's put on it, then you're then you're fine.
(09:55):
But I struggle to think that anyone, particularly the younger guys,
are gonna are going to heed that advice. But I mean,
as I said, I've I've been referring for a while now,
and I can definitely tell you that you know, when
my game's previous games have been televised and then they're
putting put up on sky or whatever, and some people
have absolutely climbed and for better, for worse, and and yeah,
(10:18):
it can be pretty challenging to take in some respects. Absolutely, yeah,
I bet.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
And final question, I saw this video of a ref
out on the field by himself running around blowing whistles
and running lineouts and stuff, sort of sort of a
shadow referee Angus Gardner.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, and shame.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Was that a real thing?
Speaker 5 (10:41):
That's one hundred percent real, right, and is that something
you do? Definitely not, but maybe that's why. Angus garden
is also one of the best referees in the world.
And I'm a club dirt tracker.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
There is something pretty music about it. He's officially the
whole game and you're the only one there. It's quite
something with the four whistles and anything. It's it's good stuff.
But he is a great referee. So you know, as
you say, fantastic. Well, you know, good on you, Good
on your.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Mate, Rob, Thank you very much for coming and studio
make great to see you and will catch up again.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
So yeah, thanks, YINSI look, I encourage anyone who wants
to take up referring talk to the local association and they.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
Won't regret it.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, and then what's one you saying, no riff, no game.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, get that on the bumper.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Still remember that there was something at the start of it.
Don't be lame, no refin something. We need another rhyme
in there.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, yeah, we'll get back to that. We'll find that
text was a good eye Rob ketchig in sou mate.
That is Rob Harmon, president of the Auckland Referees Association.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
For more from news Talk said b listen live on
air or online and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now in studio. It's a privilege to be joined by
Rob Harmon. He is the president of the Auckland Rugby
Referees Association and is with us live.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Get a Rob men Tyler, how are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
So you know you what level of referees are does
the Auckland Rugby Referees Association oversea?
Speaker 5 (00:37):
So we take care of all rugby within our provincial unions.
So there are twenty six twenty seven provincial unions throughout
New Zealand.
Speaker 6 (00:46):
So for Auckland in particular.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
We're basically from Manekau in the south all up through
central Auckland and out towards sort of Henderson Way.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Right, yeah, But like I mean what levels.
Speaker 5 (00:59):
We do everything from school boys right up to premiere
grades and we and then from the pathway from there
go into a regional basis in our referees will referee
anywhere from sort of the top I guess the top
third of the North Island.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
So basically all officiating comes through you guys to a
certain extent. Correct, that's in rugby union and so if
you if you're a if you're a you know, a
person that loves rugby and and and you're thinking, well,
I want to get into being a referee, how do
you go about that?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Who do you who do you approach and how do
you follow that path?
Speaker 5 (01:37):
It's it's largely up to the to the to the
person obviously, to to take the action. There's in all
the pus around New Zealand, there is either a referees
association or the rugby union. The local rugby union themselves
look after the referees, so it's often a case of
contacting them first, either via socials or give them a
(02:00):
call or an email. But it can be just as
easy to rock up on a Saturday and tap someone
on the on the back who's got a uniform on
and say how do I get on with it?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Right?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (02:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:11):
And so if you want to be a referee, you
know people talk about training, right, so there's a lot
to it. You know, you no, no, you need to
obviously know the rule book off by heart, right, but
you also know you have to know where to stand
at a certain point. You know you have to run
back for the conversion. There's a whole lot of refereeing
skills in there that you know, if you're just playing
the game, you don't you know, the referee alway seems
(02:31):
to be in the right place, but you don't know
that stuff. So is there a training program once you
get into the into the path.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I would struggle to think that
any referee knows the law book one hundred percent, to
be perfectly honest. We try our best, but no that
there are definitely training you know, training avenues available, of
course there are typically if you're a first year or
a novice referee, you get put in a group with
(02:59):
your peers. In Auckland, we have meetings every Monday night
six months of the year to try and up school
our new me and also the rest of the refereeing cohort.
If you're a first year referee, you can expect to
be assistant referee or touch judging pretty early on in
the piece, which is a is a nice easy way
(03:20):
to get involved. Or at the moment we're heading into
seven season as well, so that's that's also a light
introduction to the to the sport in the vocation and
then you know, once you have there's there's not really
any tests or anything to pass in order to get
onto the field.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
It's just you know when you're ready, you're ready, and
hope you're ready sooner rather than later, and out you go.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Do you what level do you have to reach before
you get paid?
Speaker 5 (03:49):
You have to be a So some French re unions
in New Zealand will pay your your mileage and and
and bits and pieces like that.
Speaker 6 (03:58):
But to actually be.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Be paid to referee, you're pretty much an MPC referee, right.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
So you know when someone is getting angry at the
sideline at a referee in rugby, that person is there,
you know, of their own volition, out of the goodness
of their heart, because they believe in the game. And
so you're you're not you're not abusing someone that's getting
rich off the back of this.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Correct, In Auckland we actually pay a subscription, so we
pay fifty dollars to referee, so whi which isn't the
similar to other places around around New Zealand. So yeah,
so other sports in New Zealand you will pay, will
pay a match payment of some sort.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
But you're very really in rugby union.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And what's the situation now, Rob when you look at
the spectators on the sideline. Do you think that abuse
or anger is getting worse or there are more of
those flare ups that we're seen in particular grassroots games.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
It's hard to say it's I think it's it's it's
it's regional. I think there's there's an undertone of that
sort of stuff has always been there. I'm fortunate I've
refreed for over twenty years. I've I've only had one
or two sort of instances where i can think to myself, yeah,
that was actually quite bad, not physical or anything, but
(05:19):
just ones that stick in the in the back of
my mind. But I think there's a bunch of reasons
that are completely outside of rugby's control which is creating
this behavior. So it's it's hard to it's hard for
for for me as a as a referee up running
out there on a Saturday, or my provincial union and
(05:40):
my Referee Association, or New Zealand Rugby for that matter,
to to actually, you know, do something that's really tangible
that's going to stomp it out once and for all.
Speaker 6 (05:50):
It's it's an impossibility.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Really, it's I think it's unfortunately, it's just something that
we need to minimize as much as we can do.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Get do you any you know, do you look into
conflict management training, how to diffuse situations or is any
Is that something that you guys discuss in your in
your Monday weekend.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Look, we we do. We do a
lot of work on the management of the game. So,
how to diffuse situations, how to talk to players in
particular instances, what to do when you know, if you
if you lose control of games. You know, sometimes sometimes
that does happen, hopefully it doesn't so and and and
(06:30):
some of the top guys looking at your body language
and and and.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
And other things like that.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
So yeah, yeah, it is available to us, definitely. Obviously
we're just waiting on the responses from the from the
players to to be able to act in it.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Right, there's a teachs tier from muzz it sees get
a rob. Is there a fitness test to be a ref.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
There is, but there's but not at not at the
lower grade. So the New Zealand Rugby brought out a
new Community Rugby framework this year and it's in what
the basis of that was it was to standardize levels
of referee capability across New Zealand. So if you want
(07:13):
to be basically a Premiere club referee or a verse
fifteen schools referee or higher, you do need to do
a fitness test and pass it in a reasonable way.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Because how many you do? Like what you must do
nine ten k's in the game, would you?
Speaker 6 (07:29):
Uh no, it's probably a bit less than that.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
Yeah, so I should have said more, should than I
But yeah, I think between you know, probably between six
seven k's.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Is that's up there.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
But they're also shuttles, right you know, so you know,
like as I was saying before, when you've got to
sprint over for the conversion, that you've got to get
there at pace, don't you.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
One hundred percent if anyone wants, If anyone out there
wants to give it a go, it's called the Bronco test,
So you can readily available on. All you need is
four cones and sixty meters in your way.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well what struck me when I did this event with you?
When was there was that last Saturday? No Saturda just gone,
Saturday just gone. Yeah, a lot of water under the
bridge between Yeah, yeah, it was a big night.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Must have been a big night.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
We've only just stopped celebrating that night.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
But what I did notice was it was a great community.
You know, you guys have all got a great sense
of humor and you know you you all work together,
you all know each other, so that that's a big
part of it, isn't it. So you know, people that
got into refereeing, there is that that that community that
that you can get involved in.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Absolutely a massive amount of camaraderie and uh and you
know the family the family spirit a few of them
is as well, But I guess that's the same with
every with everything right you you you you you make
friends with the people who are into the same stuff
as you. We we go out there and do a
job which can be pretty challenging at times. So you
need to celebrate the winds and celebrate the losses too,
(08:52):
and the draws and the and the draws the unfortunately
few to few too many of them at the at
the moment. But yeah, I mean the camaraderie within within
our association is not indifferent to any rugby club or
sports club or any other environment like that around New Zealand.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
We all know we get along with your oll and
trihast for what we do.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Good on you, Yeah, is there a bit of extra
assistance or you know, the new element here is social media.
So with the young guys, particularly if they're moving up
into more of the professional level, what is the.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Message to them.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Do you tell the younger guys maybe it's best to
say off social media or is there some training around
that element?
Speaker 6 (09:32):
No, there isn't.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
I mean social media. And I was hearing what Ben
was saying before. And you know, Ben's an outstanding ambassador
for for for referring but also for New Zealand and
general is one of the Wood's best referees at the moment.
You know, social media. I mean, if you just don't
read what's put on it, then you're then you're fine.
(09:55):
But I struggle to think that anyone, particularly the younger guys,
are gonna are going to heed that advice. But I mean,
as I said, I've I've been referring for a while now,
and I can definitely tell you that you know, when
my game's previous games have been televised and then they're
putting put up on sky or whatever, and some people
have absolutely climbed and for better, for worse, and and yeah,
(10:18):
it can be pretty challenging to take in some respects. Absolutely, yeah,
I bet.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
And final question, I saw this video of a ref
out on the field by himself running around blowing whistles
and running lineouts and stuff, sort of sort of a
shadow referee Angus Gardner.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, and shame.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Was that a real thing?
Speaker 5 (10:41):
That's one hundred percent real, right, and is that something
you do? Definitely not, but maybe that's why. Angus garden
is also one of the best referees in the world.
And I'm a club dirt tracker.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
There is something pretty music about it. He's officially the
whole game and you're the only one there. It's quite
something with the four whistles and anything. It's it's good stuff.
But he is a great referee. So you know, as
you say, fantastic. Well, you know, good on you, Good
on your.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Mate, Rob, Thank you very much for coming and studio
make great to see you and will catch up again.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
So yeah, thanks, YINSI look, I encourage anyone who wants
to take up referring talk to the local association and they.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
Won't regret it.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, and then what's one you saying, no riff, no game.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, get that on the bumper.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Still remember that there was something at the start of it.
Don't be lame, no refin something. We need another rhyme
in there.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, yeah, we'll get back to that. We'll find that
text was a good eye Rob ketchig in sou mate.
That is Rob Harmon, president of the Auckland Referees Association.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
For more from news Talk said b listen live on
air or online and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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